[Gary Thomas]

Good thread this and some good insight on the roots of the two-step scene in London from John Reed, Gareth and Rod. The first time I remember it being discussed at length was on the Soul 24-7 forum in 2002 on a thread that lasted 5 months! Some fairly informative posts, explaining the reggae sound system and pirate radio background to the scene, with track lists etc. There are a few inaccurate posts also (e.g. Keb's). Worth a look though and it's archived here http://web.archive.o...com/mb/2251.htm

[Dante]

boba, on 29 January 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

This is probably what's leading to my confusion too. My understanding of the term comes from the Dusty Groove / collector culture of the mid 90s. "Everybody loves the sunshine" as well as late-70s jazz-funk LPs with dark sounding tracks, were the essence of "rare groove". Even if the LPs were not that rare. if the scene as it happened in the UK had a different sound, that's partly why I'm confused.

I thought this, too, and I'm a little bit confused myself. I think what you think when you hear 'rare groove' is the US 90s hip-hop centric collectors? And in the Uk it was scene much like the northern scene in the 70s: youngsters going out and dancing to a specific type of music, in this case it was a mixture of black sounds very similar to what the US rare groove guys were into?
Does that make any sense?

[Steve G]

Gary Thomas, on 29 January 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Good thread this and some good insight on the roots of the two-step scene in London from John Reed, Gareth and Rod. The first time I remember it being discussed at length was on the Soul 24-7 forum in 2002 on a thread that lasted 5 months! Some fairly informative posts, explaining the reggae sound system and pirate radio background to the scene, with track lists etc. There are a few inaccurate posts also (e.g. Keb's). Worth a look though and it's archived here http://web.archive.o...com/mb/2251.htm

Blomin'eck man, that took me back!

Good old Tony trying to tell me the Vibrations "Shake it up" not two step

Edited by Steve G, 30 January 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Dean Rudland]

Dante, on 30 January 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

I thought this, too, and I'm a little bit confused myself. I think what you think when you hear 'rare groove' is the US 90s hip-hop centric collectors? And in the Uk it was scene much like the northern scene in the 70s: youngsters going out and dancing to a specific type of music, in this case it was a mixture of black sounds very similar to what the US rare groove guys were into?
Does that make any sense?

I think that the other thing to remember about rare groove is that it was a very convenient hook line / description for old funk for record companies and shops to sell. In the States for instance acid jazz became a term for new jazz dance music, which copied or were inspired by the records made on Acid Jazz, Talkin Loud and other labels, so when they wanted to sell old records that we would have termed as Acid Jazz - funky organ stuff on Prestige and Blue Note, it was easier to term these as rare grooves. Thus when I was working for Blue Note they could never get how our comps would sell by the bucket load, so they started their own 'rare groove' series to try and grab the market. This appealed to the hip hop collectors looking for breaks etc.

Just to add to the confusion because of the cross fertilisation of the non-northern soul scenes at the time, records like Roy Ayers everybody loves the sunshine could easily be classed as jazz-funk, rare groove or acid jazz.

[Dante]

Dean Rudland, on 30 January 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

records like Roy Ayers everybody loves the sunshine could easily be classed as jazz-funk, rare groove or acid jazz.

I think the term jazz-funk is almost strictly a musical definition, a sub-genre like any other. On the other hand, I think of rare groove and acid jazz as music based scenes.

[Dean Rudland]

Dante, on 30 January 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think the term jazz-funk is almost strictly a musical definition, a sub-genre like any other. On the other hand, I think of rare groove and acid jazz as music based scenes.

I'm afraid you're wrong there. US writers almost invariably called that sort of music jazz fusion. In the UK Jazz Funk was very much a scene, which covered a certain set of DJs - The Soul Mafia - and covered a vast array of at the times contemporary styles from Japanese fusion to boogie soul. The Snowboy book mentioned earlier in the thread really covers this scene well.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Dante, on 30 January 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I think the term jazz-funk is almost strictly a musical definition, a sub-genre like any other. On the other hand, I think of rare groove and acid jazz as music based scenes.

I concurr with Dean on this. The term Jazz-Funk sprang up around '76 and held pretty much until the end of the decade. This was a period when both Disco and Jazz-Funk dominated the UK dance-floors, with Jazz-Funk being the more 'credible' of the two terms. This was also the period when it wasn't unusual to see artists like Herbie Hancock, The Crusaders, Rodney Franklin in the UK Pop Top 30. Had you asked any of the regular club goers or all-dayer goers in the late 70's what they were into or what scene they were in, they would have said 'Jazz-Funk' without hesitation, much as a decade later they would have said 'Acid Jazz' or 'Rare Groove'.

Ian D

[wiggyflat]

There was no defined style as acid jazz.If you listen to everything that was defined as acid jazz you would be none the wiser as to what it was.Listen to the Perry Lois interview re the split between jazz funk and jazz fusion.

[DtheD]

Regarding the two step scene, Gareth is right that it came out of the reggae/ 'blues party' scene in london, basically because the groove fitted really nicely with the downtempo 'lovers rock ' sound. By the time it got up to Manchester and Rod was selling it and i was buying it, it had become affiliated with the 'Modern soul' scene (which had slowed down in tempo massively under Richard Searlings direction) because it fitted so well with the kind of downtempo new releases that were being championed then.

[sjclement]

Jazz Funk, 2-step or Rare Groove?

[modernsoulsucks]

I was going to mention the new release connection but I thought it might complicate it even further and I can't remember any examples except for a 12" on MCA by Front Page and I've forgotten the title of that!

ROD

[garethx]

A couple of other things which were pretty big two-steppers as new releases were Bobby Glover "Happy" on Columbia and Tyrone Brunson "In This Love Triangle" on MCA. Also The Controllers "Stay". I like the first two but not the Controllers track, which sums up my feelings towards the genre: a lot of it lacked the fire that I like in my soul music (compare the Controllers on this to the relative grit and passion of their earlier recordings on Juana).

Much of it was far too smooth for its own good and had that 'sippin' Champagne wine' aesthetic that I don't really like. An entire evening of it would be far too much for me although the odd stepper stills sounds great over a big sound system and a few two-step anthems are among my favourite records in some ways: Dee Dee Warwick "Where Is That Rainbow" (either album or 45 cut), Willie Hutch "Out There" from the Foxy Brown soundtrack, Charles Earland "Shining Bright", The 3 Pieces "If Only I Could Prove To You" and so on.

Also I really can't think of a better record of its type than Starvue's "Body Fusion", which strangely I never get bored of hearing even for the ten-thousandth time. If someone were to ask 'what is two-step?' that would be as close as definitive in capturing the flavour of the sound in its full glory.

[Steve G]

Yes agree with you on Starvue Gareth.

[Ian Dewhirst]

modernsoulsucks, on 30 January 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

I was going to mention the new release connection but I thought it might complicate it even further and I can't remember any examples except for a 12" on MCA by Front Page and I've forgotten the title of that!

ROD

"Love Insurance"?

Ian D

[modernsoulsucks]

I just googled that Ian. Bloody awful!! So no that's not it.

A bit unfair, Gareth. I admit it's lush and sophisticated like those of us who got a liking for it. DtheD is a lush and Im sophisticated. Probably explains why the majority of it is from mainstream 70's acts rather than small independents where maybe production values were lower, although always exceptions



I always preferred my northern to sound like it had a full orchestra behind it, the kitchen sink treatment, so I have no problem with the same feel as regards 2-step







Hopefully clips will give Bob an idea of what we're talking about.

ROD

[Nick Harrison]

sjclement, on 30 January 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

Jazz Funk, 2-step or Rare Groove?

Defo a "stepper" a steppers soul room classic played alongside the likes of Leo Sunship "Give Me The Sunshine" and Bobby Wilson - "Deeper And Deeper", which were both recorded in the seventies, each finding a better lease of life during the eighties. .

Edited by Nick Harrison, 31 January 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Steve G]

I always liked Cracksteppin' "What are we going to do with this feeling" (LP track and 45). Vocal of "The Wind" I seem to recall...

[modernsoulsucks]

Im not sure about that Steve but Alex and I found both the "Cracksteppin" LP and Sahara 45 in a shop in Detroit E 9 Mile around '93/'94. I think Pure Pleasure too. Guy who owned the shop said he was something to do with Brooks Brothers and Sequins. He had none but took us to his mate.......... who was out of town.

Par for the course.

ROD

[DtheD]

Steve G, on 30 January 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

I always liked Cracksteppin' "What are we going to do with this feeling" (LP track and 45). Vocal of "The Wind" I seem to recall...

Same backing track... the Cracksteppin of course came out on 45 as Kelli Evans and Donald Albert..

[modernsoulsucks]

Found it on YT. So it is.Never noticed at the time.

ROD

[John Benson]

Great thread so far guys, I always like to hear a mixture of things soulful and the rare groove / two step sound is included.
I probably first came across the terms during the 80's but wasn't really sure of what sounds go with what - still not really, it's all 'just soul' to me!

As the music started to get more and more 'widespread', I started to notice DJ playlists in the mags such as Blues and Soul, Echoes etc. Some I already recognised, some I didn't - which prompted me to start digging through my collection and find them out. Of course I was pleasantly surprised when I found I'd already got quite a few, others I did find while out looking for records and picked up on the strength of the playlists and the ones I already knew and liked.

I also used to listen to the shows on Sheffield Community radio - a pirate station as I recall and did hear a lot of this played at certain times (thanks for the reminder Geordie!) I've no idea who played the music on these shows, but I did hear lots of then unknown things that I liked, along with things I used to hear Richard Searling play on his radio show in Sheffield during the early 80's.

Also I followed that thread on the Soul 24-7 forum, and attemped to compile a list of the recommendations mentioned, never did make a proper listing though, although I still have a lot of points from the thread saved.
Agreed though, these days a lot of the music from these 'scenes' seem to have crossed over into others - not a bad thing in my opinion either.
I always think if it's good, then play it, never mind the 'box' it has to go in. But I think I'm probably in a minority on that way of thinking...

I don't know how relevant this is, but I spotted someone selling some rare groove CDs on ebay last year and traced them back to most likely this site: http://www.raresoulgrooves.com/store/
There's lots of titles listed on there to go through as examples of what this is about.

Cheers!

[Ian Dewhirst]

John Benson, on 01 February 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I don't know how relevant this is, but I spotted someone selling some rare groove CDs on ebay last year and traced them back to most likely this site: http://www.raresoulgrooves.com/store/

There's lots of titles listed on there to go through as examples of what this is about.

Cheers!

Don't buy 'em though. All bootlegs!

Ian D

[Hammersoul]

Here`s a few other 2 step tracks that were big in the 80`s/early 90`s:

Never like this-The Two Tons (Aka Weather girls later on)

I love you-a Taste of Honey.

Rocking you eternally-Leon Ware.

love has come around-Wyndchymes.

I don`t wanna live without you-Platinium Hook.

Love don`t strike twice-Blackbyrds.

Superman-Barbara Blake and the Uniques(This is more Rare Groove).


Good thread

[jordirip]

Ian Dewhirst, on 01 February 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Don't buy 'em though. All bootlegs!

Ian D

It was buying those 'Midnight Music' bootleg rare groove compilations in the late 80's that got me hunting down the original records. Damn those bootlegs, they are the reason I've been skint all my life since.

Jordi

[geeselad]

moved to london in '87 and attended rare groove night at the wag and various west end venues, along with allnighters and events on the NS scene, as an uneducated young soul boy, my perceptions of rare groove at the time were of obvious tunes such as the 'jackson sisters' and 'voices of east harlem'- 'wanted dead or alive', also the 'vibrettes' 'humpty dump', the general impression was of records that had the funkyness and feel of tunes on hot wax and invictus.

[emadex]

sjclement, on 29 January 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Hey Boba wait until you come across 'jap jazz'. That was heralded by Colin Curtiss in the North and the Funk Mafia in the South both ends of the country were dancing to Hunt Up Wind Hiroshi Fukumara and many other tracks from very expensive audiophile standard japanese imports.
I remember CC starting his stint at the Ritz with Turning Japanese the punk track.
Anyone recall James Hamilton's page in the musical express were he reviewed a jap album by Kanu Sukalagwan?
I think ID produced a cd of most of the best tracks.

I remember this one so well!
James Hamilton reviewed a non-existant Japanese jazz-funk import and the whole review and artist name were full of hidden phallic references.
It was by 'Kanu Sukalagwun' which of course is simply 'Can You Suck A Large One'. The best track was supposed to be a remake of the Isaac Hayes track "Shaft" - which James described as a "...slippery spurting track..."
DJ Chris Dinnis from Boxes in Exeter was one of the first to be claiming to play it and when asked where he got it he claimed to have bought it from an obscure jazz-funk store off the Champs-Élysées (yeah right!)

James exposed the hoax when it was reported that white labelled albums were being sold as the non-existant Kanu Sukalagwun album for megabucks in London. James told me that he did the hoax to show that many DJs did indeed just list the "hip tracks" on their playlists/returns to increase their cool factor.
James also reckoned that a lot of DJs were pressured to list certain new releases on their returns due to pressure by record companies - DJs feared getting taken off the record companies mailing lists. WEA were allegedly notorious for this (anyone remember Fred Dove?)

[71 Steve]

I'm a bit late looking at this thread (story of my life!) but it's interesting as lots of the tracks / artists etc listed on here, I discovered largely through buying records and CD's that were being released during the 80's & 90's when I first started working, including some superb compilations which then got me into the great addiction of hunting down more of the original 45's and LPs a few years back.

Bands like Brand New Heavies, Incognito, Young Disciples, Soul II Soul even + Compilations such as these, released late 80's early 90's are what really got me interested in learning more / delving deeper as part of my journey to now really enjoying and buying Northern Soul records....

"Rare" 1 - 5 (RCA and Arista recordings)...where I first heard the likes of Garland Green and Weldon Irvine etc.
"Urban Classics" 1 & 2 on Polydor...where I first heard the likes of Jackson Sisters - I believe in miracles / The Mob / Sweet Charles.
"Soul Chasers" 1 & 2 + "Soulsource" comps on Expansion...where I first heard the likes of Gloria Scott and Trumains etc.
"Rare Groove" and "Jazz Funk" comps etc on Mastercuts...where I first heard Leon Ware and some great Japanese bands etc.
"Moving on" and other Brit-Soul related comps over those years.
....+ loads more from the likes of Mr Dewhirst etc.

Great. I still love it when I hear something out or buy an original LP or 45 and then try to find the LP or CD compilation I first heard a particular track on all those years ago.

[Tank]

Haven't had time to check that older thread so apologies for any repetiton.
Living on an estate in London during the 80's and 90s, Blues Parties went on almost every weekend and I went to many. They always had a quota of 2-Step tunes mixed in amongst the Reggae. Many were previously ignored LP only tracks as already mentioned and included some current releases like Anita Baker 'Feel The Need', Omar 'There's Nothing Like This', Cortez 'Girl I've Been Watching You' etc. Loved those Midnight Music / RAW bootleg compilations and such was the competiton between some sound systems, some titles were even covered up (bizarre eh! ). Most imaginative for me was Starvue's 'Body Fusion' covered as 'Straight Out Of The Fat Boy's Neck'!! Bit more inventive than 'Let's Shingaling At The Go-Go'!!
Loved the night time Pirate broadcasts too where it was uninterrupted mellow stuff all night - unless the plug got pulled. Happy days.

[Steve Plumb]

Great thread this with loads of accurate info from a whole load of knowledgeable folks on here

I remember selling 'Rare Groove' to the London crowd in the mid-eighties, then 'Two Step' in the mid/late 80's well before it got any exposure in the North. Think we hadn't a clue what we were selling so we had lots of Londoners filling their boots and snaffling Jackson Sisters on Mums etc for a couple of quid

Generalising a bit here but from a Northern (geographically not musically) perspective, I think it has been said that the Richard Searling/Dean/Parkers axis (and possibly Colin Curtis@Berlin before them) lifted the best of the Two Step scene (Arnold Blair, Leroy Hutson etc) and introduced them to the 'Modern Scene' (as was) in the North in the mid/late 80's which also coincided with the early Berwick/Morecambe/Fleetwood/Southport weekenders which had folks attending from all over the UK which then caused a cross pollination of genres for many of the different Soul/Funk/Jazz/House scenes at the time (but maybe not the Northern Scene!).

Great thread

Edited by Steve Plumb, 01 April 2012 - 12:22 AM.

[NCFC]

From what i remember the price of records soared when the rare groove scene started and to be honest have never come down

I remember Arthur Fenn having quite a few Timothy Wilson lps in his sales box @ £4 each a few weeks later they were going for a ton plus.

Great lp btw.

[Steve Plumb]

NCFC, on 01 April 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

From what i remember the price of records soared when the rare groove scene started and to be honest have never come down

I remember Arthur Fenn having quite a few Timothy Wilson lps in his sales box @ £4 each a few weeks later they were going for a ton plus.

Great lp btw.

Hiya
It would be interesting to know who played TW first? I remember Richard making it huge in the North West, particularly at his Halfway House nights in the mid 80's? Brilliant track from an LP which seems to have always been in-demand. I remember selling a handful at £25 each in the mid 80's. Arthur must have been selling them before this i guess?
Cheers
Steve

[NCFC]

Steve Plumb, on 01 April 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Hiya
It would be interesting to know who played TW first? I remember Richard making it huge in the North West, particularly at his Halfway House nights in the mid 80's? Brilliant track from an LP which seems to have always been in-demand. I remember selling a handful at £25 each in the mid 80's. Arthur must have been selling them before this i guess?
Cheers
Steve

Arthur could't sell them at that price we were playing "keep it up" from the lp but the rare groove/2 step scene were playing "its love baby" and demand soared.
Dealers were rubbing their hands as prices went up and the days of the cut out lps were gone.

Lets not forget their were some great records discovered and played on the Rare Groove and 2 step scene first though.





Hope your well Steve ATB Chris Huggins.

Edited by NCFC, 01 April 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Roburt]

If you lived in / near Manchester, Yanks was always the place to quickly head down to when Richard started playing a track off an old (70's / 80's) US LP.
Unfortunately I lived on the sunnier side of the hills back then (in Gods' own Yorkshire), so it was hard to make it down to that basement before more local soulies (& dealers) had cleared out all the copies of any 'newly in-demand' albums.

[Nick Harrison]

Steve Plumb, on 01 April 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Hiya
It would be interesting to know who played TW first? I remember Richard making it huge in the North West, particularly at his Halfway House nights in the mid 80's? Brilliant track from an LP which seems to have always been in-demand. I remember selling a handful at £25 each in the mid 80's. Arthur must have been selling them before this i guess?
Cheers
Steve

Yes - Steve as both Arthur Fenn and Graeme Ellis were spinning the LP before Richard, mainly for the track "It's Love Baby, as Chris mentioned in post 82.

Cheers.

Edited by Nick Harrison, 01 April 2012 - 01:07 PM.

[Steve Plumb]

Nick Harrison, on 01 April 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Yes - Steve as both Arthur Fenn and Graeme Ellis were spinning the LP before Richard, mainly for the track "It's Love Baby, as Chris mentioned in post 82.

Cheers.

Hi Nick/Chris

Hope you're well chaps?

I remember folks playing the faster track (which i only thought was OK) but first came across 'It's love baby' later via RS. Much the better track imho and a total classic if ever there was one! Actually, have also heard folks play 'follow me' from the LP too!

Was lucky enough on a couple of occasions to get into Yanks on the day of a delivery.................going thru them virginal unopened boxes was heaven!

Cheers
Steve

[modernsoulsucks]

I don't usually get too involved with the modern side of things but there seems to be some confusion here regarding Timothy Wilson.

100% sure that Richard was playing both tracks at Wigan although "Keep it up" probably featured more. That was '79 definitely cos in September of that year I picked up copies of the LP along with Bobby Thurston, Dysons Faces in a warehouse in Washington.

I knew then it was wanted for both tracks.

I got good money for it then so hard to believe Arthur was selling for £4 later. Unless of course he found multiples.

ROD

[souljazera]

Yes he did have some at 4.00 we also had PURPLE MUNDI (CAT) for 2.00 but couldnt sell it even at 2.00...that was at Clifton Halls though !

[Steve Plumb]

modernsoulsucks, on 01 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I don't usually get too involved with the modern side of things but there seems to be some confusion here regarding Timothy Wilson.

100% sure that Richard was playing both tracks at Wigan although "Keep it up" probably featured more. That was '79 definitely cos in September of that year I picked up copies of the LP along with Bobby Thurston, Dysons Faces in a warehouse in Washington.

I knew then it was wanted for both tracks.

I got good money for it then so hard to believe Arthur was selling for £4 later. Unless of course he found multiples.

ROD

Hi Rod

Thanks for the info

Although i went to Wigan in the early days, i didn't go too much in 1979 so to find out 'It's love baby' was played there is a bit of a revelation to me! This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that, so I tip me hat off to you and note that 'you live and learn'

Cheers
Steve

[Nick Harrison]

Steve Plumb, on 01 April 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Hi Rod

Thanks for the info

Although i went to Wigan in the early days, i didn't go too much in 1979 so to find out 'It's love baby' was played there is a bit of a revelation to me! This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that, so I tip me hat off to you and note that 'you live and learn'

Cheers
Steve

modernsoulsucks, on 01 April 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I don't usually get too involved with the modern side of things but there seems to be some confusion here regarding Timothy Wilson.

100% sure that Richard was playing both tracks at Wigan although "Keep it up" probably featured more. That was '79 definitely cos in September of that year I picked up copies of the LP along with Bobby Thurston, Dysons Faces in a warehouse in Washington.

I knew then it was wanted for both tracks.

I got good money for it then so hard to believe Arthur was selling for £4 later. Unless of course he found multiples.

ROD

Intresting post and as RS was breaking new ground I find it even more confusing that the slower "Its Love Baby" was played because in 1978/79 the demand was on more "upbeat" seventies dancers, hence "Keep It Up".

Rod I have spent most of my nite's this week playing through CD 90 and 60 tapes and viewing playlists via fanzine's from this period with little evidence or proof that "Its Love Baby" slipped out in 79. So hats off to you and sorry if I am being the source of any indifference.

Cheers
Nick H.

[Nick Harrison]

I am also of the understanding that Ethna Thornhill owned Richard's original LP copy of TW and loaned it to Graeme Ellis who played it for the steppers track "It's Love Baby" . But Hey Ho or was it Graeme giving it back to Richard to play "It's Love Baby" at the Up North Weekenders and Parkers some 10 years later.

Edited by Nick Harrison, 07 April 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[modernsoulsucks]

Without Richard playing it I wouldn't have had a clue. I did know him well though so I guess he may have mentioned other track but positive he played it too.

ROD