60S Newies; Do People Want Them?

[Ady Croasdell]

However good they are.

 

I just got a tape through of a storming mid 60s out and out Northern track. Once it's cleared I'll play it at the 100 Club but following Matt's thread I'm wondering if many people will get as big a buzz from it as I do.

 

I think the oldies crowd are mainly happy to relive their youth and if a new Frank Wilson record were discovered, probably wouldn't bother to listen. The rarer soul crowd don't seem to get excited about tape discoveries as they are never going to be able to collect them in original form and when they get issued on a UK 45 don't bother with it because its not vintage US pressing. Even when records go on to the anniversary single the DJs don't usually pick up on them. I remember Richard Searling and many others raving about Dean Courtney's 'Today Is My Day', describing it as an ultimate Wigan record, yet once it was on 45 nobody bothered, and that was with Sharon Scott's sublime 'Putting My Heart Under Lock & Key' on the flip.

 

Records like Luther Ingram 'Oh Baby Don't You Weep' did go big but it was mainly down to the mod scene rather than the Northern. Oddly a lot of the new 100 Clubbers seem keener on the funk edge or R&B than the classic Northern sound. They are open-minded and enjoy it all but their preferences are different to those of us who grew up through the 70s.

 

I'm not bemoaning it, just observing and putting a plug in for people to pick up on some of the old Kent and 100 Club anniversary singles and actually play them out; I think a lot of them deserve some spins and they would be new classic Northern for dancers who must be bored with the top 500 by now.

[Tony Turner]

God, yes!

[Spacehopper]

YES PLEASE!

 

stopped myself getting involved in that thread..been there done that!..my answer to mat would have been yes :-)..despite not getting the 'disco' weve still got more choice than ever!

 

so....I cant understand why some northern oldies fans don't 'get' northern tunes that are discovered now but then don't get how they don't like some of the 60s funky edged stuff and soulful rnb but will dance to ohio players or Charles Sheffield!..but they come around,can also remember being one of a few on the floor for jt parker down here when it fills the floor... now im a bit bored with it ;-)

 

and if I can pay a tenner for an unreleased legit killer..bring it on...not too much of a snob to put it in my playbox and shout out LISTEN TO THIS! HOW THE HELL DID IT NEVER GET RELEASED 40+ YEARS AGO!....Jackie days get to steppin for instance,maybe not quite as good as naughty boy but then its not as overplayed either!

 

keep on doing what you've been doin

 

dean

[Steve L]

Ady the answer from me is a definite yes!

The other points you make are quite valid, I've said for a long time there is a massive void between the top 500 oldies DJs and the upfront DJs who will only play rare records with a hefty price tag. A lot of the Kent stuff falls into this category and should definitely be played out a lot more!

[Mark Bicknell]

Please keep them coming Ady, for me and I know similar mind set people adore and appreciate your findings, guidance and inspiration, not really being active anymore on the scene it's a joy to invest in the Kent/Select/Anniversary and Pied Piper 45's, anyone who deprives themselves of these wonderful recordings because they are not authentic 60's vintage originals in my book are total philistines, more the case the music should be judged and not it's format, you have got it right so many times over the past thirty years from the very inception of Kent to now so please don't stop or if you do at least do me a dub first lol 

[Ian Dewhirst]

However good they are.

 

I just got a tape through of a storming mid 60s out and out Northern track. Once it's cleared I'll play it at the 100 Club but following Matt's thread I'm wondering if many people will get as big a buzz from it as I do.

 

I think the oldies crowd are mainly happy to relive their youth and if a new Frank Wilson record were discovered, probably wouldn't bother to listen. The rarer soul crowd don't seem to get excited about tape discoveries as they are never going to be able to collect them in original form and when they get issued on a UK 45 don't bother with it because its not vintage US pressing. Even when records go on to the anniversary single the DJs don't usually pick up on them. I remember Richard Searling and many others raving about Dean Courtney's 'Today Is My Day', describing it as an ultimate Wigan record, yet once it was on 45 nobody bothered, and that was with Sharon Scott's sublime 'Putting My Heart Under Lock & Key' on the flip.

 

A dilemma. Out of curiosity, do you have a mailing list of DJs who could potentially play these releases and, if so, roughly how many would there be who could get behind these records? Or is up to them to buy the records as they're released? 

 

These releases are caught between a rock and a hard place really. I don't know how many of the DJs who can can actually 'break' records these days would actually go into a record shop and buy these as new releases. Given the emphasis on rarity, do these releases get anything like a fair shake I wonder?

 

Ian D

[Phil Shields]

Yes please :-)

[Chalky]

I get just as big a buzz from hearing something I don't know today as I did when a youngster starting out on the scene.  The buzz is even bigger if it is good    I still like to listen to new stuff even if it isn't to my taste.

[Scotters]

Yes absolutely and any new release on Kent/Ace or other such quality label is a special day I think.

 

There's more than enough of us hungrier by the day for any "newie", especially 60's unreleased or not well known.

 

Please keep up the hard work for our benefit.

[Garethx]

Imagine how huge something like Henry C. & The Ivy Leaguers would have been at the Torch. Kind of wasted on today's nighter scene, which is a shame. And that's a real, released record. 

 

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think Ady that it might be an idea to get a track and instead of playing [or hammering] it first yourself, you do a simultaneous general release.

Obviously timing would be something you'd have to get right but first play at 100 club and then you announce now in shops from tonight.

It is then something fresh and exciting that maybe more people would rush out to buy and play out than something they'd heard for past 12 months ?

ROD

[Garethx]

Maybe the key with the unissueds is (sadly) to keep them unissued. We've become spoilt by the number and quality of tape-only things which have made it onto compilations and official 45s.

 

I remember speaking to Mick Smith about Eddie Holman's great "Hold Me In Your Arms" and he was of the opinion that the record had been killed stone dead by its Grapevine 2000 release. As an exclusive nighter play it could have had a far longer lifespan. 

 

Culturally as Northern fans perhaps we're happier wanting things rather than having them.

[Mark Bicknell]

Maybe the key with the unissueds is (sadly) to keep them unissued. We've become spoilt by the number and quality of tape-only things which have made it onto compilations and official 45s.

 

I remember speaking to Mick Smith about Eddie Holman's great "Hold Me In Your Arms" and he was of the opinion that the record had been killed stone dead by its Grapevine 2000 release. As an exclusive nighter play it could have had a far longer lifespan. 

 

Culturally as Northern fans perhaps we're happier wanting things rather than having them.

Think we should lose the elitist/exclusive mentality find the right balance of when to release the tracks gaining maximum allnighter plays and making the track available to people who appreciate it as a valid release on quality and merit, it's a bit like when a huge big ticket item turns up in quantity and is dropped like a stone by DJ's because it no longer has the mystic of being an exclusive/rare tune however the record is still the same tune and should not spoil it or make it any less of a record musically, more to do with having something very few others have than the actual tune?

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Hello Ady…….I do think there's enough interest when the music is good enough. You've hit the nail on the head though regarding the "RareSoul" crowd though. Hasn't it always been the case that the hardcore rare collectors aren't interested if its available ? Look at some of the negativity levelled at those Motown 45 box sets,[ie nonsense like "you can't play those out because they're not original"] to see the kind of attitude that some have. I feel thats more to do with the scenes obsession with vinyl" at any cost",irrespective of whether the music is actually any good.

You're also right about the old 100 club singles,so many good ones from years gone by …….The fact is Kent has lead the way for unearthing previously unreleased gems for more years than any of us care to remember. Long may you continue to do so mate.

  Ivor

[Pete S]

Imagine how huge something like Henry C. & The Ivy Leaguers would have been at the Torch. Kind of wasted on today's nighter scene, which is a shame. And that's a real, released record. 

 

 

That's good, but not exceptional though.  Same as an awful lot of unissued cuts - they're not as good as, or are inferior to records already released on those artists, the RCA things in particular - Today Is My Day is good, but not a patch on I'll Always Need You.

And I know I'm to get some right stick for this but in a lot of cases, the sound quality is simply too good to the point that the sound can become a bit sterile.

I'm not asking it to be inaudible mono, just not CD quality stereo.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Think we should lose the elitist/exclusive mentality find the right balance of when to release the tracks gaining maximum allnighter plays and making the track available to people who appreciate it as a valid release on quality and merit, it's a bit like when a huge big ticket item turns up in quantity and is dropped like a stone by DJ's because it no longer has the mystic of being an exclusive/rare tune however the record is still the same tune and should not spoil it or make it any less of a record musically, more to do with having something very few others have than the actual tune?

Absolutely. 

[Mark Bicknell]

Hello Ady…….I do think there's enough interest when the music is good enough. You've hit the nail on the head though regarding the "RareSoul" crowd though. Hasn't it always been the case that the hardcore rare collectors aren't interested if its available ? Look at some of the negativity levelled at those Motown 45 box sets,[ie nonsense like "you can't play those out because they're not original"] to see the kind of attitude that some have. I feel thats more to do with the scenes obsession with vinyl" at any cost",irrespective of whether the music is actually any good.

You're also right about the old 100 club singles,so many good ones from years gone by …….The fact is Kent has lead the way for unearthing previously unreleased gems for more years than any of us care to remember. Long may you continue to do so mate.

  Ivor

That's made me chuckle Ivor, not really collecting as such anymore just dabble lol the last few couple of purchases were Ady's last batch of Kent/Select/Pied Piper 45's and the Motown Vol 2 Box Set lol

[Guest Garry Huxley]

Hello adey as the thread is telling you Keep on keeping on   Wasent that the name of one of the 500 ?

All the best.

Garry

[Ady Croasdell]

That's good, but not exceptional though.  Same as an awful lot of unissued cuts - they're not as good as, or are inferior to records already released on those artists, the RCA things in particular - Today Is My Day is good, but not a patch on I'll Always Need You.

And I know I'm to get some right stick for this but in a lot of cases, the sound quality is simply too good to the point that the sound can become a bit sterile.

I'm not asking it to be inaudible mono, just not CD quality stereo.

I wasn't particularly a fan of the Dean Courtney myself as I felt it was too Wigan friendly for my tastes. Did you think any of the Sharon Scott's were better than the released records? I certainly did and I really like the RCA 45. Similarly the unreleased Nancy Wilcox beat the released ones hands down, though the release wasn't so hot in the first place. There was a much bigger buzz when the first lot of RCA/Pied Pipers got played in the 90s than the equally good recent batch. I know a lot of collectors like Eddie Hubbard and the Soul Hit crowd loved them but it only partially crossed over onto the dancefloor.

[Ady Croasdell]

Hello adey as the thread is telling you Keep on keeping on   Wasent that the name of one of the 500 ?

All the best.

Garry

Don't worry I have every intention of doing that and the releases always sell enough to make them worthwhile but I feel they should be heard out more, not just at the 100 Club.

[Ady Croasdell]

A dilemma. Out of curiosity, do you have a mailing list of DJs who could potentially play these releases and, if so, roughly how many would there be who could get behind these records? Or is up to them to buy the records as they're released? 

 

These releases are caught between a rock and a hard place really. I don't know how many of the DJs who can can actually 'break' records these days would actually go into a record shop and buy these as new releases. Given the emphasis on rarity, do these releases get anything like a fair shake I wonder?

 

Ian D

No we don't have a mailing list as they are usually a very limited run and I think there is more chance of a DJ playing a record if he's paid cash for it than got it as a freebie.

 

I've also on occasion done cuts for other DJs to play them out before release but apart from on the Modern Soul scene they don't seem to have either played them or had much effect. One of the problems is that it takes two plus years to break an exclusive record, a figure Butch roughly agrees with, and licensors don't want to wait about that long before royalties start coming through, even though they've waited 50 years since recording them 

[KevH]

Imagine how huge something like Henry C. & The Ivy Leaguers would have been at the Torch. Kind of wasted on today's nighter scene, which is a shame. And that's a real, released record. 

 

 

Not sure what you mean about "wasted on todays nighted scene",its packed floors for a while.Unless you mean you think its gone over people's heads.? Not my cuppa really but lots do like it.

Back on topic,yes Ady,more 60's please.!! The 100 club is doing no wrong for me.Embracing the funkier edge stuff and balancing it out with 60's etc,is no mean feat for the dj's. 

[Chalky]

Imagine how huge something like Henry C. & The Ivy Leaguers would have been at the Torch. Kind of wasted on today's nighter scene, which is a shame. And that's a real, released record. 

 

 

 

You need to get out more Gareth, it has been massive for Andy Dyson on the all-nighter scene for some years.  Rare as hens teeth too.

[Garethx]

I know that Chalky and Kev. Just making the point that the sound of the record would have been spot-on for the scene circa 1972-3 had it been known then. 

[KevH]

You need to get out more Gareth, it has been massive for Andy Dyson on the all-nighter scene for some years.  Rare as hens teeth too.

 

 

Uncle Ted too...

[Guest]

It has also been pointed out that we are indeed spoilt with the high amount of quality unissued pieces on CD...and I agree with the previous comments with regards to keeping a track unissued for longer in order to build up its reputation...and if the punters are interested they will have to go down the stairs of the 100 Club as well....exclusivity is part of the fun of the scene!

 

Once established then release on an anniversary special...that series is already legendary and quite a few DJs feature them in their sets over a regular Kent Select 45 and the like, as they have some kudos. 

 

Guess those license holders will have to wait 52 years after all!

 

-PS One of my fave unissued tracks is still the Diplomats...fabulous mid-tempo tuneage.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Flynny

[Chalky]

I know that Chalky and Kev. Just making the point that the sound of the record would have been spot-on for the scene circa 1972-3 had it been known then. 

 

 

I don't understand the rest of your comment though, wasted on today's nighter scene?.

 

Unissued, good or bad, I love to hear them all.  It is the same with issued material, the wheat gets sorted from the chaff and if it is good enough the demand will be there.  Regardless I'd like to own them all in some format or other so even if demand doesn't dictate a release I would still like to see them issued via CD, at least you can see the progress or lack of any particular artist made inn their careers.

[Soulstu]

Baffles me sometimes how dancers behave.

I get very excited when I hear a 'newie' that I'm not familiar with - if it's got that northern groove and tempo why would you sit down?

I tend to get up to a lot of stuff that I'm unfamiliar with - It's all part of the buzz for me... then I'll find out what it is, tell others and look out for it next time. A lot of dancers just sit down if it's not something they've heard a million times before - surely it would have been unfamiliar to them at one point.

I guess it's tough for a DJ to risk emptying the floor all the time but Christ we're always just scratching the surface. I rifle through my cheapies and there's SOOOO many that I've never heard out - it's a crime.

Please keep doing what you do Ady, there's enough of us listening out for it!

[Garethx]

I think it's hard for records to become legends these days–no matter how good.

[KevH]

I think it's hard for records to become legends these days–no matter how good.

 

Only because the turnovers less.

[Linda4me]

Bring it on Ady there is nothing quite like the buzz of hearing a new 60s stomper 

[Chalky]

I think it's hard for records to become legends these days–no matter how good.

 

Been hard for years, some records Butch was playing in the 90's took a second or third copy 15 years later to break the record big, Tommy & Derby's, Johnny Praye etc.  Goes back to a previous debate on here IMO or for another debate another time.

[Garethx]

Agree wholeheartedly with you Chalky. 

[Patto]

Ady

The Recent Pied Piper Stuff is awesome. One i would dash out to buy on Vinyl is the Willie Kndricks Version of Time Changes Things.The fantastic  unissued stuff you have put out over the years has had an incredible positive effect on the Northern scene i think everyone would endorse that as fact.

Keep em coming they are your legasy and its a far greater contribution than the DJs who pump out the same wigan oldies in the same order week after week

[Garethx]

What's the Pied Piper thing on the backing track of "Just Can't Leave You"?

[Sammy]

I'm all for 60's newies. I listen to a few funky bits as well mainly because it's so hard to find 60's records that are new to me. When I collect I'm looking more for newies than classics...

Concerning Henry C, it was new to me when I first heard it a year ago (I know, I should get out more often) and it is as good as the top ten classic 60s records for me. Simply amazing!

Edited August 30, 2014 by Sammy

[Dennisoul]

Absolutely room for more Ady....I always play something from your catalogue....some of which are;

 

Metros- my imagination

GiGi & charmaines- I don't want to lose him

Tobi Lark- true true love

Maxine Brown -it's torture

Melba Moore - magic touch

 

and over the last year or so Willie Kendrick - Time Changes Things

 

just to name few.......absolutely essential DJing bits of gold, so more of the same please.

 

I can't thank you enough

 

Andy

Edited August 30, 2014 by Dennisoul

[KevH]

Aah Willie Kendricks Andy. Thinking grumpy soul !! Just playing Freddy Butler - I fell in love .....off the pied piper cd....tune !!!!

[Guest CapitolSC]

Got all the Kent Selects

Great stuff Ady

 

Keep em coming mate

 

Al H

[Louise]

Maybe the key with the unissueds is (sadly) to keep them unissued. We've become spoilt by the number and quality of tape-only things which have made it onto compilations and official 45s.

 

I remember speaking to Mick Smith about Eddie Holman's great "Hold Me In Your Arms" and he was of the opinion that the record had been killed stone dead by its Grapevine 2000 release. As an exclusive nighter play it could have had a far longer lifespan. 

 

Culturally as Northern fans perhaps we're happier wanting things rather than having them.

Gareth

The release of Eddie Holman might have killed it for Mick but it recieved extensive airplay before and after it'seventual release by other people. He had a acetate of this for quite sometime before he played it (I know as it was me who sent him it) and it was an ego thing that stopped him playing it after it's release I'm sorry to say.

Same thing with the unissued Natural Impulse "We're Gonna Make It Through" the first time I played it covered up as  Natural Impulse every DJ and woud-be DJ in the room were trying to find out it's true identity (amazing the effect a circle of old wall paper can have on other DJ's) but how many of them bought when they found out it was an unissued Soul Junction release ?  Mind you it did sell out in less than two weeks, but again how many Dj's have played it since ?

Anyone who spends their time trying to find unissued material will tell you it's getting harder and harder you can spend months even years trying to find artists and producers only to be told they haven't got Jack Shit !

So the sensible money is on the guys who collect these unissued releases on whatever label as like it or not these are the future just check the soul fraternity obituary columns it's only gonna get harder.

Dave

Edited August 30, 2014 by Louise

[Chalky]

I don't know how long Mick Smith had the Eddie Holman but Clarky had it also in the early 80's and was given plenty of airplay.

[Guest]

Ady - Would be such a waste not to share them anything fresh northern related 45s may not like them all but you got to give them a go

Would of been a great part missing if all that RCA stuff hadn't of been played what a find -

Well done to you and others that's my view and long may you keep surprising us -

[eddiep]

However good they are.

 

I just got a tape through of a storming mid 60s out and out Northern track. Once it's cleared I'll play it at the 100 Club but following Matt's thread I'm wondering if many people will get as big a buzz from it as I do.

 

Adey,

 

Without a doubt you are and have been the oasis in the dessert for soul fans over the last 35 years or so. No one has worked harder at unearthing buried tunes that were never going to see the light of day and for any soul fan in today's world it has been the super fix to keep the enthusiasm alive in many of us.

 

Some amazing stuff that have became all time favorites of mine and which I also played out were the Hytones - Carla Thomas - Wee Willie Walker - Garland Green - Paramount Four amongst others. They always get a massive reaction here down Essex way and so I think the "buzz" will always be there for anything new you discover and release.  Long may it continue too!

 

Thanks Adey  

 

ATB Eddie 

[Ady Croasdell]

What's the Pied Piper thing on the backing track of "Just Can't Leave You"?

Harry Gates 'Love Will Find A Way' original publisher's acetate from Shelley Haims' collection. Harry wrote a few Detroit releases mainly for the Enterprise label. 

[Triode]

I agree with comments regarding advance copies to people who will plug them, and if individuals don't plug certain items simply don't send them further copies!

I am a big fan of a lot of the unissued tape discoveries ie. Alexander Patton, Dave Hamilton, Pied Piper etc etc and I have had carvers made in the past of certain items so that I can play them....of course always giving credit to Kent etc  but I think it would be more structured if the record companies did this themselves ......perhaps on a subscription bases?  Though I guess many would disagree....

[pow wow mik]

Think we should lose the elitist/exclusive mentality find the right balance of when to release the tracks gaining maximum allnighter plays and making the track available to people who appreciate it as a valid release on quality and merit, it's a bit like when a huge big ticket item turns up in quantity and is dropped like a stone by DJ's because it no longer has the mystic of being an exclusive/rare tune however the record is still the same tune and should not spoil it or make it any less of a record musically, more to do with having something very few others have than the actual tune?

Good point. Economist call them 'positional goods' I think - items where part of their desirability is the fact that others dont have them.

It's intriguing to wonder whether some records would have been bigger if they'd been rarer, or ignored if they'd been more common.

one thing's for sure : none of us will be as objective as we'd like to be. Some dont appear to even try - their 'taste' starting around the £300 mark!

another factor with vinyl releases, is that they're only really going to sell to djs, and there isn't really any club nights any more where residents can get behind records based purely on the music - djing s just a network of guesting now, with the pressure to show off that comes with it.in some quarters, you get the impression that there might be someone stood behind the dj with a calculator, making sure that the dj's 'good enough'.

One thing about the mod / r&b scene that was refreshing - rarity and value wasn't quite fetishised to such an extent.

regarding Ady's question - I think it's probably right that, except for nostalgic reasons, straight-up 60s northern, with that sort of major-key uplifting (camp?) sound, is to some extent unfashionable, especially with generations who grew up into r&b, dance, funk or hip hop.

]

[grouse]

I love hearing new 60's northern, unissued or otherwise, as long as it's not R&B or Funk.

 

The problem is that I only collect US originals.

 

If it's a UK issue then to me it's just another record I'll never have.

 

Nice to hear but I probably wouldn't buy one.

Edited August 30, 2014 by grouse

[Amsterdam Russ]

For what it's worth, when I spin a few records at the next Amsterdam Soul Club (Sept 20th for anyone interested!) I'll have Maxine Brown "Torture" & September Jones "Voo doo madamoiselle" in my box. Just two of so many amazing discoveries! Why would people not want to play them? Perhaps some people think they should only be playing their own discoveries and not somebody else's.

 

Great music unearthed from wherever deserves to be heard - end of story.

 

Keep them coming, Ady!

[Tiggerwoods]

I feel very lucky that some of the outstanding stuff is made available to me as a punter. On the rare occasions when I get asked to dj I've always got a 100 club anniversary 45 to play. Wee Willie Walker goes down with crossover crowd and I heard somone play a carver of the unissued Judy Clay track Upset my heart etc and it went down a storm! Keep them coming all you vinyl detectives

[Dave Pinch]

we still get excited ady...i think we`re just a little more reserved than we used to be...