Bass Lines

[Ian Parker]

I've always been awestruck by the bass playing on ' what kind of lady' Dee Dee Sharp

  astonishing is the word.... But yesterday I was playing my drums to various tunes on my iPod, when along came ' girl don't make me wait' Bunny Sigler,  this is show stopping stuff!

  I'm assuming that this could be the same guy (both recordings hailing from Philadelphia ), but obviously I'm far from certain.

  My question is, does anyone know who this could be, if he's still around, did he go onto bigger (if poss) things?

 

 Thanks guys.

 

p.s.  I now have a new Fave Bass line in a tune

[Guest Chris61]

Ian, four names came up after a little looking around.

 

Ronnie Baker

Joe Mack

Bip Muscemeci

Winnie Wilford

 

They all where studio musicians at the time. There are a couple more but searches on them didn't give anymore info.

[Ian Parker]

Was Ronnie Baker a member of the Trammps? 

 

 Anyway, many thanks for the info, will have a browse around with those names in my head

[Chalky]

I asked Bruce Hawes and he said....

 

It is probably, Wynn Winford, Debbie Allen the actress' first husband who played with Kenny for years, or Sugar Bear who played with the original Philly house-band and Roland Chambers the band leader, or Ronnie Baker of Baker, Harris & Young... BH

[Dave Moore]

The bassist on 'What Kinda Lady' was Ronnie Baker. I suspect he was also on "Girl, Don't Make Me Wait Too Long" as well.  That particular recording hails from Leon Huff's time with John Madara's Double Diamond Music, which was based just across he road from the studio (Cameo Parkway), where both tracks were recorded.                      

 

Early Young, who joined Ronnie Baker, and Norman Harris as the renowned rhythm section of MFSB was a sometime member of The Trammps post PIR and today has his own version of the group that still perform.

 

Both great Philly tracks. And of course the best way to hear the guys performing "What Kinda Lady" is on the Huff Puff label, (1003), on which they released the studio track as an instrumental entitled 'Lady Lady Lady' by The Producers. (The flip of which is also a great  recording "Love Is Amazing").

 

 Regards, 

 

Dave

[Ian Parker]

Quality!

Without causing a war,  I have to say, the muso's from Philadelphia , easily out gun the Detroit guys.

   Dont get me wrong,I admire the funk bros beyond words,  but Jameson falls short of that quality of musicianship, when it comes to bass playing, its just incredible how he makes the thing sound

   

Edited September 6, 2014 by IanP

[Chalky]

If you read here is a book worth reading....

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/House-Fire-Rise-Fall-Philadelphia/dp/0195149726

[Dobber]

would he have come up with bass lines himself or maybe told what to play note for note?

[Chalky]

I doubt any of the musicians back then in the likes of MFSB's, Funk Brothers etc played note for note.  Always some artistic license that is why they stood out.  The above book I gave the loin for goes in to some detail about the musicians and the fallouts, lack of recognition etc.

[Guest Chris61]

would he have come up with bass lines himself or maybe told what to play note for note?

 

Most bass lines would be down to the bass player. An example of one that might be part written would be the line in 'Lend a Hand' Bobby Hutton. 

[Chalky]

If you watch the documentary about the wrecking crew Carol Kaye tells of how she came up with some of the bass lines in the studio at the time of recording.  Great musicians can improvise as well as follow as sheet.  Besides I bet there was more than a few who couldn't read music. 

[Dave Moore]

Like most things, "Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan".  You'll rarely hear a musician admit to playing on a 45 that completely bombed and if they do it inevitably bombed because of someone else! Whereas on the hits they ALL played! LOL!

 

Carol Kaye is undoubtedly a talented lady but over the years she made some extraordinary claims including the one that she invented the intro hook and subsequently played the bass on Uptight by Stevie Wonder! Many of her claims have been shot down over the years. I'm not saying she didn't play on all that West Coast stuff like the Beach Boys etc but she was nowhere near the 60s Motown hits of the day.  

 

Ref: The Funk Bros band v The MFSB Band... That's the first time I've ever heard anyone claim that Jamerson's musicianship fell short! LOL! Both bands would deliver their own interpretations of any charts they were given and often played without written out references. A good Philly example of that is Cliff Nobles - The Horse.    Anyone doubting Jamerson's 'musicianship' should really look no further than Marvin Gaye's - "What's Going On". And for a metronome like performance in a different style, with not a single flaw - Marvin and Tammi's - "Ain't No Mountain High Enough".    

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Chalky]

I've read of the many claims of Carol Kaye and the counter claims.  The Carol Kaye one I was referring to was I think a Beach Boys track and others on the video backed her up so one I probably believe.  I don't believe any of the Detroit claims to be honest, maybe some of the West Coast recordings?

 

Jamerson arguably one of the greatest.

Edited September 7, 2014 by chalky

[Guest son of stan]

Isn't there a story that Jamerson was so out of it when recording 'What's Going On' that he was laying on the floor on his back? Amazing anyway...

[Chalky]

Isn't there a story that Jamerson was so out of it when recording 'What's Going On' that he was laying on the floor on his back? Amazing anyway...

 

genius, pair of 'em

 

https://how-to-play-bass.com/bass-guitar-blog/whats-going-on-james-jamerson-and-marvin-gaye

Edited September 7, 2014 by chalky

[Heisenberg]

I know he probably never had anything to do with Northern Soul or the like, but when it comes to basslines the late and great Bernard Edwards has to be my main man...

 

 

Chic - Happy Man (et al.)

[Stevegods]

If we are talking Bass ... for me there is only one man ..

Stanley Clarke ... and School Days has to be the track !!!

With Jaco Pastorius and Dave Entwistle a close second and third ..

Edited September 7, 2014 by stevegods

[Ted Massey]

Bringing it right up to date the guy in Disclosure seems to know what he is doing. brill playing at Glastonbury 2014

[Stevegods]

Howard is the younger brother ... and only 20 ... I have know the Lawrence boys for a good few years and Howard has always played bass ... and loved his Funk ... Glasto this year was a bit disappointing for me in general .. but Disclosure was one of the high points ..as was Mogwai on the Park Stage

[MrsWoodsrules]

Love the bass on Billy Hambric, She Said Goodbye.

Real beat that.

Edit: I know we've all heard Ann Sextons You've Been Gone a million times, but that bass never fails on me.

Edited September 7, 2014 by MrsWoodsrules

[Stevegods]

Yea ..just played that again here as its one i have not played for a while myself ...

I know its not a great sounding bass but as the backbone to a tune " Hung up on your Love " always does it for me ..just the bass start of the track sends tingles down my spine !!

[Kjw]

William 'Bootsy' Collins

 

Changed the whole style of the James Brown sound when he joined the backing band

[Grayman45]

I'll never forget the bass player in Lonnie Liston Smith's band - awesome! If I knew how to post videos I'd put "Expansions" here.

[Stevegods]

Yea ..great start rift ..

[Kjw]

I'll never forget the bass player in Lonnie Liston Smith's band - awesome! If I knew how to post videos I'd put "Expansions" here.

 

Cecil McBee - played on many of the Blue Note albums

[Grayman45]

Cecil McBee - played on many of the Blue Note albums

[MrsWoodsrules]

Talking bout, non soul, modern bands then Nick o'Mally of Arctic Monkeys is mega talented.

I love that band, & there's not many I like these days, creative, original, cool songwriter too.

Live they are fabulous.

[Steve White]

As a bass player myself, I have to mention the chap who was playing with Chic last year at Glastonbury etc was absolutely breathtaking....and he did some vocals too! Exceptional talent! The bass chords at the start of Nicky Newarkers' Woman always make me smile too!

[El Corol]

Yea ..great start rift ..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5R3_SbE7XQ

Didn't Stetsasonic sample that? Talkin all that jazz.

[Stevegods]

Very true .... lots of people have sampled the start of that tune .... good spot ..they just turned the revs up a touch

Edited September 8, 2014 by stevegods

[Mal C]

not James Jamerson standing on his head or anything, but you still cant beat the opening of this!!!! I wonder if the MoWest connection might have had Jamerson on there? he did move out to the west coast...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsSoDsxB7Yo

 

 

Mal:_)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Mal C

[Simsy]

And this is James Jamerson (solo) - Bernadette, very best of the best. 

 

[Kegsy]

If we are talking Bass ... for me there is only one man ..

Stanley Clarke ... and School Days has to be the track !!!

With Jaco Pastorius and Dave Entwistle a close second and third ..

 

 

Have to agree re Mr Clarke, although may disagree about which track, there

are so many truly exceptional bass licks on loads of his stuff.

 

Jaco ain't no slouch either, will never forget Weather Report live in Manchester circa 76. 

[Soulof]

Great thread this. As always impressed by the knowledge of fellow Soul Source members     . Bass player on this is ace me thinks

 

[Dave Moore]

If we are talking Bass ... for me there is only one man ..

Stanley Clarke ... and School Days has to be the track !!!

With Jaco Pastorius and Dave Entwistle a close second and third ..

 

Sheer quality.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

[Stevegods]

Have to agree re Mr Clarke, although may disagree about which track, there

are so many truly exceptional bass licks on loads of his stuff.

 

Jaco ain't no slouch either, will never forget Weather Report live in Manchester circa 76.

I saw Stanley , when he came to the 02 Indigo with Return to Forever ..about 3 / 4 years ago .... he still has it down to a tee... and love his slaps

I know what you mean about which track ... just that School Days was one i grew up with ... bit heavy while you where growing up ..but great musicianship

[maslar]

Jamerson falls short?   Hmm ok.

 

This is one of my favourite Jamerson basslines: I Was made To Love Her

 

 

This is quite interesting. It's  a guy playing Joe Long's bassline to The Night but using Jamerson's one finger technique: great playing from an unknown:

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by maslar

[Stevegods]

Weather Report and Jaco ...hell yea !!!

He would be a very close second in my opinion ... with a very distinctive sound ... and a handsome chap as well ... some guys just have it all ..its not fair !!

and not many knew that this was played on a bass .... Marcus Millers no slouch either

Edited September 8, 2014 by stevegods

[Kegsy]

I saw Stanley , when he came to the 02 Indigo with Return to Forever ..about 3 / 4 years ago .... he still has it down to a tee... and love his slaps

I know what you mean about which track ... just that School Days was one i grew up with ... bit heavy while you where growing up ..but great musicianship

 

Saw Mr Clarke at Erics in Liverpool about the time School Days came out, 

ended up sleeping in Lime St. station all night.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Kegsy

[Stevegods]

Saw Mr Clarke at Erics in Liverpool about the time School Days came out, 

ended up sleeping in Lime St. station all night.

Have to agree re Mr Clarke, although may disagree about which track, there

are so many truly exceptional bass licks on loads of his stuff.

 

Jaco ain't no slouch either, will never forget Weather Report live in Manchester circa 76.

Class mate .... wish i had been to that one ...best one for me at Eric's was John Martyn ... doing his Solid Air album ..still have my Erics membership card somewhere He could play a bass ..and any guitar

Nice one mate

[Heisenberg]

On Motown nobody could beat James Jamerson SR. (there's also his son James Jamerson jr., a good bass player himself), but runner-up for me would be the late white funk brother Robert Kreinar aka Bob Babbitt who played on a lot of great records (later on sometimes credited as "Bob Kreinar" / "Babbitt").

I'm a little surprised Babbitt doesn't get named.

 

[maslar]

would he have come up with bass lines himself or maybe told what to play note for note?

 

Jamerson would have had free reign to make up a bass line and play it. That to some degree is where the greatness comes in. He could be given a song and come up with a bass line that was entirely suitable (and added to)   the song. Hence why musicians such as him were in such big demand around Detroit. Also. no one is going to tell a top player like Jamerson how to play his bass. Look what happened when Paul McCartney tried to tell George Harrison how to play his guitar.

[MrsWoodsrules]

I'll never forget the bass player in Lonnie Liston Smith's band - awesome! If I knew how to post videos I'd put "Expansions" here.

Great record, reminds me of 'Berties' in Newquay, circa 82, another track big in that club with a great great bassline Donald Byrd, Dominoes.

Bass just doesn't get better than this folks!

Edited September 8, 2014 by MrsWoodsrules

[maslar]

On Motown nobody could beat James Jamerson SR. (there's also his son James Jamerson jr., a good bass player himself), but runner-up for me would be the late white funk brother Robert Kreinar aka Bob Babbitt who played on a lot of great records (later on sometimes credited as "Bob Kreinar" / "Babbitt").

I'm a little surprised Babbitt doesn't get named.

 

 

One thing i've noticed is that Jamerson's bass lines (played by him) are readily available on youtube but as a rule Babbitt's aren't.  So if you want to hear some of his great input on tracks like Band of Gold, Signed Sealed, Tears Of A Clown and perhaps his finest hour - Midnight Train To Georgia - in separation you have  to watch somebody else playing them. Thankfully there are some good musicians who do his work justice. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by maslar

[Grayman45]

Great record, reminds me of 'Berties' in Newquay, circa 82, another track big in that club with a great great bassline Donald Byrd, Dominoes.

Bass just doesn't get better than this folks!

Oh yes, another great track. It's exactly the tune I was thinking of when Kjw mentioned "Blue Note" in post 25. I have this on a Live At The Blue Note album.

[Guest]

The menacing bass-line intro to Sam Dees' "Lonely..." is quite simply sublime.

[Stateside]

Anthony Jackson playing on the O'Jays For the love of money.

Or Bob Babbitt on the Temps -Ball of Confusion

[Vin]

Henry Davis....Thelma Houston  - Don't Leave Me This Way..

Jaco ..Weather Report..- River People.......(Fretless Bass).........Awesome

Edited September 9, 2014 by Vin

[Guest Carl Dixon]

And I think this is Jamerson somehow...always said so......just sounds like what he would do post Motown with a different groove...the stops, slides and playing the same note even though the chord changes..:

 

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Another good bass player from the late 70's MFSB days - Jimmie Williams! He is touring with The O' Jays right now and will be at the O2 next week! He also played on the four songs we did in 2008 ('Soul Recession' and 'There I go falling in love again' were released, the other two still in the can). Jimmie played on 'Ain't no stoppin' us now' for example.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Carl Dixon