Have We Gone Full Circle In Northernsoul?

ritchie · September 30, 2009

As a' trendy'soul boy in the 70s I frequented a local pub which had a rock n roll night once a week . I would sn***** at the the old fellas in their drapes and creepers, 'trying to re-live their youth' .

After striking up conversations with some of these chaps I came to realise that their passion for the music and their scene was just as strong as mine.

Younger people who attended these nights went on to become the grass-roots of the rockabilly scene which took off in the 80s but which has now become underground again, and will as all things do come to an end.

The irony is not lost on me .

The increased going rate for the rarer records also appears to be an indicator that the sounding the death toll has begun ,as historicaly the prices of all collectables peak as the age of the collector does so to..eg steam railway memorabilia in the 90s. Engine name plates that went for £50,000, struggle to make £8000 today.

Doom and gloom ? nah.... get out there and enjoy what what we got while we are still here to enjoy it.

I have been to a few events which jarred me, usually the soul /handbag crossover type thing (but not advertised as such ) .. no need to mention names ..but there are more than enough good- uns out there( TOTS Luton for example)

Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul ? I believe that some folk who still attend have, but thanks to those with vision the old dogs still got some life in it yet.

September 30, 2009

As a' trendy'soul boy in the 70s I frequented a local pub which had a rock n roll night once a week . I would sn***** at the the old fellas in their drapes and creepers, 'trying to re-live their youth' .
After striking up conversations with some of these chaps I came to realise that their passion for the music and their scene was just as strong as mine.
Younger people who attended these nights went on to become the grass-roots of the rockabilly scene which took off in the 80s but which has now become underground again, and will as all things do come to an end.
The irony is not lost on me .

The increased going rate for the rarer records also appears to be an indicator that the sounding the death toll has begun ,as historicaly the prices of all collectables peak as the age of the collector does so to..eg steam railway memorabilia in the 90s. Engine name plates that went for £50,000, struggle to make £8000 today.
Doom and gloom ? nah.... get out there and enjoy what what we got while we are still here to enjoy it.
I have been to a few events which jarred me, usually the soul /handbag crossover type thing (but not advertised as such ) .. no need to mention names ..but there are more than enough good- uns out there( TOTS Luton for example)
Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul ? I believe that some folk who still attend have, but thanks to those with vision the old dogs still got some life in it yet.

Tell you what mate, if everybody on here posted with so much ration as their underpinning energy, it would be a much nicer place! Yes, we are only alive once and rather than rip 'this thing of ours' (and each other) to pieces, it would be nice of people really did concentrate on celebrating the British Soul scene for all it's diversity, strengths and weakness. Each to their own and a respect for each others tastes is perhaps too much to ask for but you are absolutely right.

On the right night, with the right geezers behind the decks, with a nice mix of 60s and 70s, a few new crackers, some classic oldies and some underplayed, neglected gems, Northern Soul can still leave you with a buzz and an emotional charge I have never experienced in any other type of Music

arena, be it another form of 'Soul' or any other genre.

September 30, 2009

It's the word NORTHERN that's the problem, back in the 70's it was quite easy to describe a northern record (Uptempo, a failed Motown type of sound) Now after 40 years we have so many different styles it confuses the issue, but the one thing that will always be the same is that there will always be a rare soul scene, maybe not as we know it, but it will be there. I bet kids today all over the world are collecting current and 2k releases, which will in turn become the rarities of tomorrow, and their thirst for similar sounds to what they collect now will just be the same as ours, in ten to twenty years time, and the same debates will go on as well, it's human nature.

'

I know what you mean, but it's not quite that simple. The word NORTHERN is not a problem if you are clear in your own head as to what that means. That's why I love ADY'S adverts for the 100 CLUB that say 'MICK, BLAH, BLAH and BLAH playing Northern soul records'. I like that because it kind of defiantly says we will keep that label and people will clearly recognise a musical thread amongst the type of records our DJ's play. i.e This is a Northern Soul club where you will hear mid-uptempo 60s and 70s (in the main) American Soul records and not Jazz, Funk, latin, Reggae and a hybrid of every Black dance music concieved since the year dot. This in the so-called name of 'progression'.

The problems actually emerge when - and this is by no means a new thing - certain people decide that they are going to widen and define the musical boundaries of what was originally deemed Northern Soul, to such a degree wherein it starts including music which would never have remotely been considered representative of the genre in the first place. That is what constitutes 'hijacking' of a scene and then subsequently getting annoyed and self righteous if the masses refuse to accept the 'visionaries' tastes and directions.

Somebody has just mentioned the old TEDDY BOYS from the 70s and I recall them well, too. The thing is those guys were fanatical for that original 50s and early 60s sound and that is what they loved. If somebody came along and played them BLACK SABBATH and said 'hey this is still rock'n'roll man, you are not progressive if you don't accept it', they would have told them to fuck off simply because they did not particularly like that style of music. And it has to be said that is fair enough. The same thing has occurred on our scene and it manifests in some quite nasty and cruel insults on this site.

As for the future, whatever scenes emerge, they will be scenes created by the generations of those times and different styles of music and fashions etc. We have to accept that the Northern Soul Scene in the classic sense, has a limited lifespan, in exactly the same way as the original British Rock'n'roll scene, which as somebody has pointed out is now virtually deceased. Then we can just enjoy what is left and stop all this bickering.

Edited September 30, 2009 by chorleysoul

Naughty Boy · September 30, 2009

As a' trendy'soul boy in the 70s I frequented a local pub which had a rock n roll night once a week . I would sn***** at the the old fellas in their drapes and creepers, 'trying to re-live their youth' .
After striking up conversations with some of these chaps I came to realise that their passion for the music and their scene was just as strong as mine.
Younger people who attended these nights went on to become the grass-roots of the rockabilly scene which took off in the 80s but which has now become underground again, and will as all things do come to an end.
The irony is not lost on me .

The increased going rate for the rarer records also appears to be an indicator that the sounding the death toll has begun ,as historicaly the prices of all collectables peak as the age of the collector does so to..eg steam railway memorabilia in the 90s. Engine name plates that went for £50,000, struggle to make £8000 today.
Doom and gloom ? nah.... get out there and enjoy what what we got while we are still here to enjoy it.
I have been to a few events which jarred me, usually the soul /handbag crossover type thing (but not advertised as such ) .. no need to mention names ..but there are more than enough good- uns out there( TOTS Luton for example)
Have we gone full circle in Northernsoul ? I believe that some folk who still attend have, but thanks to those with vision the old dogs still got some life in it yet.

Good post Richie.... i agree 100% and f'''''''k all the silliness my way is better than your way and vice versa

Rob

Edited September 30, 2009 by Naughty Boy

Naughty Boy · September 30, 2009

deleted double post

Edited September 30, 2009 by Naughty Boy

Naughty Boy · September 30, 2009

'
The problems actually emerge when - and this is by no means a new thing - certain people decide that they are going to widen and define the musical boundaries of what was originally deemed Northern Soul, to such a degree wherein it starts including music which would never have remotely been considered representative of the genre in the first place. That is what constitutes 'hijacking' of a scene and then subsequently getting annoyed and self righteous if the masses refuse to accept the 'visionaries' tastes and directions.

Somebody has just mentioned the old TEDDY BOYS from the 70s and I recall them well, too. The thing is those guys were fanatical for that original 50s and early 60s sound and that is what they loved. If somebody came along and played them BLACK SABBATH and said 'hey this is still rock'n'roll man, you are not progressive if you don't accept it', they would have told them to fuck off simply because they did not particularly like that style of music. And it has to be said that is fair enough. The same thing has occurred on our scene and it manifests in some quite nasty and cruel insults on this site.

Well said that manoooh but be now there are a few that do not want to listen

Rob

amen to that Chorley

Edited September 30, 2009 by Naughty Boy

September 30, 2009

I want to agree with Cliff, really I do, but Chorley's angle makes me question Cliff's reasoning.

It comes back to the "scene lover or soul lover" thread, no?

Cliff is saying "I'm a soul lover and I've been to Barcelona where there are kids. I know what's going on, I'm progressive and cutting edge and better than northern soul oldies fans who have hijacked the scene." Which may be true, I dunno? Obviously Cliff is quite excited about a club full of young people dancing to his broad range of soul tunes he spun which perhaps do not receive the same reaction on the UK scene, but I'm not sure one night is solid evidence to base his argument on, certainly not as hard as what Chorley presents.

Cliff seems to be torn between a scene love and a soul love, and he doesn't really know where his heart lies? The shackles of the scene obviously frustrate him and his recent fix in Euroland probably adds to that frustration.

Chorley's stark reality and home truths are harder hitting them Cliff's somewhat weak argument. Hard to pick Chorely up on any points he's making. But perhaps if he went to places like Zurich, Oslo, Malmo, Barcelona, Helsinki and so many other hubs of soul music around the world and gosh horror Dex in Brixton or Soul Rev' Chelmsford or Shoreditch and every Friday and Saturday night at Madam Jo Jos he may be more likely to see where Cliff is coming from? As there are certainly dedicated young soul lovers at these place and it is very liberating to be playing records to a crowd of music lovers without the often ridiculous shackles of the northern scene.

JAMES, I am 50 years old. I have been going to Soul clubs of one form or another since I was 13 years old and I'm not being confrontational. But I understand exactly where CLIFF is coming from. You have to understand something. There has always been 'crowds of dedicated young Soul lovers' within various scenes and enjoying a multiple array of music styles and genres. In 1973 I and thousands of others were enjoying commercial Soul, Philly etc in various Top Rank's and Mecca Dancehalls around the country. In '74 I discovered Northern Soul by fluke and a musical love affair that that has lasted ever since. But that did not stop me from 'progressing' to Funk clubs in the mid 70's, the Jazz Funk scene towards the end of that decade and on into the 80s, the 'warehouse' scene and the south coast Soul scene wherein a electic mix of 60s, 70s and new releases combined to memorable affect. Acid House, Rave and Dance never touched me. I found it Souless music and that includes a lot of Garage and house which I could not warm to, try as I did.

But of all these styles and genres, that mix of 60s and 70s midtempo-uptempo American Soul tunes, that ignited our passions within the Northern Soul Scene have stood the test of time and retain the biggest pull on my emotional loyalties and passions. In my collection I have Northern, Motown, Commercial Soul from 60s and 70s, 80s and 90s stuff, tons of Jazz Funk and Soul 12 inches, plus Disco and Funk 7's.

I still prefer 60s Detroit/Chicago/New York Uptown Dance Soul to all of those other categories. Be it mid or uptempto.

It is very simple. Northern Soul, in the classic sense was a scene outside of the normal, commercial and contemporary trends of Black dance Music at the time of it's elevation into the nation's consciousness. Although - contrary to many viewpoints - the scene (Including Wigan, notably...) did indeed champion new releases alongside 60s oldies, it was always looking for rarer records, records that could carry some type of extra kudos for their owner. But there was still a definiton of sound, a style factor which dictated the musical boundaries of the scene and to many people, that style aspect concludes around 76-77 with great records like FLAMING KING etc. That style aspect seems, over the years to have frustated many people and we had first 'The Modern Soul Scene' (Of which I loved a large number of records) and now a further kailedescope of tastes and styles, which for some reason, certain people seem intent on foisting onto the classic Northern Soul fan, with or without his or her's approval!

Nobody is being radical by stating that Northern Soul has somewhat narrow, defining boundaries. Yes, it has to a certain extent. But within those boundaries there are still thousands of 45s which have been neglected or underplayed for whatever reason over the years. Cheapness, easy availability, B-sides, a myriad of reasons as to why playlists have not embraced the full, vast catalogue of records that fall within the classic Northern Soul definition I have described. I am certainly not a fan of a 100 records policy and neither are a huge amount of other people.

However, realistically and stylistically, Northern Soul, in the true sense is a minority 'strand' of Soul music and you either adore it forever or you get bored of it and move onto other styles of Black Music albeit Funk, Jazz, Hip Hop, Deep Soul or whatever.

Within this collective evolution of tastes and loyalties, venues and scenes manifest and come and go. If people wish to become Northern Soul DJ's, they either accept the general definitions of the genre or they move onto other scenes and enjoy them. As people like KEB have done. Having sampled 57 varieties of Soul clubs over the years, at 50 years old, I don't particularly enjoy a night out dancing to Funk, Jazz, House, Nu-Soul, contemporary R/B whatever. I am at heart and Soul, a Northern Soul fan in the classical sense of the word and I love midtempo to uptempo American Soul Music from the 60s and 70s. That's what I want to listen to these days when I go clubbing and if that is too narrow for somebody like CLIFF, that's fine. He is free to do what he wants. For me it is all about the music I love most. Period.

What is out of order is the way he uses adjectives such as 'ridiclous'. Many people have tried to dicate the destiny of Northern Soul. It does not work, even with supposedly well-intentioned motives. Those of us who for some reason, are helplessly obssessed and in love with that particular style of American Soul Music are hopeless addicts! At my age now, I am not concerned with what is going on in other scenes. Good luck to those who are but it is a pointless and unfair excercise when people try and browbeat others into accepting their own personal music tastes.

Each to their own and mutual respect should be the touchstone.

Edited September 30, 2009 by chorleysoul

Wrongcrowd · September 30, 2009

I want to agree with Cliff, really I do, but Chorley's angle makes me question Cliff's reasoning.

It comes back to the "scene lover or soul lover" thread, no?

Cliff is saying "I'm a soul lover and I've been to Barcelona where there are kids. I know what's going on, I'm progressive and cutting edge and better than northern soul oldies fans who have hijacked the scene." Which may be true, I dunno? Obviously Cliff is quite excited about a club full of young people dancing to his broad range of soul tunes he spun which perhaps do not receive the same reaction on the UK scene, but I'm not sure one night is solid evidence to base his argument on, certainly not as hard as what Chorley presents.

James, I've never claimed to be cutting edge, but progressive - absolutely. Am I better than the oldies fans "hijacking the scene", no, I just have different view and find it difficult to understand why anyone that professes to be sooooo into the music and the scene can ignore or worse still condemn more recent tunes on the basis that they didn't hear them during their heyday at which ever club they attended in the 70's........it's completely illogical to me, and very damaging to a progressive soul scene.

Far from basing my experience on a single trip to Barcelona, I have seen similar enthusiasm in Rimini this year, and Stockholm last year....but you don't have to take my word for it...ask any UK based DJ about their experiences on the European scene, and I'm sure you'll get a similar picture.

Cliff seems to be torn between a scene love and a soul love, and he doesn't really know where his heart lies? The shackles of the scene obviously frustrate him and his recent fix in Euroland probably adds to that frustration.

I don't have any question in my mind as to whether the scene is more important to me than the music..........easy.......it's the music that wins every time, though you're absolutely right it is frustrating to see the scene shackling itself, as you put it.

Chorley's stark reality and home truths are harder hitting them Cliff's somewhat weak argument. Hard to pick Chorely up on any points he's making. But perhaps if he went to places like Zurich, Oslo, Malmo, Barcelona, Helsinki and so many other hubs of soul music around the world and gosh horror Dex in Brixton or Soul Rev' Chelmsford or Shoreditch and every Friday and Saturday night at Madam Jo Jos he may be more likely to see where Cliff is coming from? As there are certainly dedicated young soul lovers at these place and it is very liberating to be playing records to a crowd of music lovers without the often ridiculous shackles of the northern scene.

Chorley's arguments are all around whether the scene can be sustained on the scale it is today, and bases his view on what is quite frankly a very limited understanding or experience of the progressive elements of the scene in the UK, such as Lifeline, and no experience as far as can be determined of the European scene.

My view is that the scene is going full circle, reverting to smaller clubs and focused venues supporting truly dedicated soul music lovers, carrying on in the original ethos of the early scene, seeking out and championing new music. So I actually agree with some of Chorley's points, however I am not so nearly as despondent as he seems to be, writing the scene off.

I am still very enthused by the scene and can see plenty of mileage yet.....but then again I speak from experience of travelling to progressive venues, and my world isn't limited to the site and the clubs and tunes of 30 years ago.

barney · September 30, 2009

JAMES, I am 50 years old. I have been going to Soul clubs of one form or another since I was 13 years old and I'm not being confrontational. But I understand exactly where CLIFF is coming from. You have to understand something. There has always been 'crowds of dedicated young Soul lovers' within various scenes and enjoying a multiple array of music styles and genres. In 1973 I and thousands of others were enjoying commercial Soul, Philly etc in various Top Rank's and Mecca Dancehalls around the country. In '74 I discovered Northern Soul by fluke and a musical love affair that that has lasted ever since. But that did not stop me from 'progressing' to Funk clubs in the mid 70's, the Jazz Funk scene towards the end of that decade and on into the 80s, the 'warehouse' scene and the south coast Soul scene wherein a electic mix of 60s, 70s and new releases combined to memorable affect. Acid House, Rave and Dance never touched me. I found it Souless music and that includes a lot of Garage and house which I could not warm to, try as I did.

But of all these styles and genres, that mix of 60s and 70s midtempo-uptempo American Soul tunes, that ignited our passions within the Northern Soul Scene have stood the test of time and retain the biggest pull on my emotional loyalties and passions. In my collection I have Northern, Motown, Commercial Soul from 60s and 70s, 80s and 90s stuff, tons of Jazz Funk and Soul 12 inches, plus Disco and Funk 7's.

I still prefer 60s Detroit/Chicago/New York Uptown Dance Soul to all of those other categories. Be it mid or uptempto.

It is very simple. Northern Soul, in the classic sense was a scene outside of the normal, commercial and contemporary trends of Black dance Music at the time of it's elevation into the nation's consciousness. Although - contrary to many viewpoints - the scene (Including Wigan, notably...) did indeed champion new releases alongside 60s oldies, it was always looking for rarer records, records that could carry some type of extra kudos for their owner. But there was still a definiton of sound, a style factor which dictated the musical boundaries of the scene and to many people, that style aspect concludes around 76-77 with great records like FLAMING KING etc. That style aspect seems, over the years to have frustated many people and we had first 'The Modern Soul Scene' (Of which I loved a large number of records) and now a further kailedescope of tastes and styles, which for some reason, certain people seem intent on foisting onto the classic Northern Soul fan, with or without his or her's approval!

Nobody is being radical by stating that Northern Soul has somewhat narrow, defining boundaries. Yes, it has to a certain extent. But within those boundaries there are still thousands of 45s which have been neglected or underplayed for whatever reason over the years. Cheapness, easy availability, B-sides, a myriad of reasons as to why playlists have not embraced the full, vast catalogue of records that fall within the classic Northern Soul definition I have described. I am certainly not a fan of a 100 records policy and neither are a huge amount of other people.

However, realistically and stylistically, Northern Soul, in the true sense is a minority 'strand' of Soul music and you either adore it forever or you get bored of it and move onto other styles of Black Music albeit Funk, Jazz, Hip Hop, Deep Soul or whatever.

Within this collective evolution of tastes and loyalties, venues and scenes manifest and come and go. If people wish to become Northern Soul DJ's, they either accept the general definitions of the genre or they move onto other scenes and enjoy them. As people like KEB have done. Having sampled 57 varieties of Soul clubs over the years, at 50 years old, I don't particularly enjoy a night out dancing to Funk, Jazz, House, Nu-Soul, contemporary R/B whatever. I am at heart and Soul, a Northern Soul fan in the classical sense of the word and I love midtempo to uptempo American Soul Music from the 60s and 70s. That's what I want to listen to these days when I go clubbing and if that is too narrow for somebody like CLIFF, that's fine. He is free to do what he wants. For me it is all about the music I love most. Period.

What is out of order is the way he uses adjectives such as 'ridiclous'. Many people have tried to dicate the destiny of Northern Soul. It does not work, even with supposedly well-intentioned motives. Those of us who for some reason, are helplessly obssessed and in love with that particular style of American Soul Music are hopeless addicts! At my age now, I am not concerned with what is going on in other scenes. Good luck to those who are but it is a pointless and unfair excercise when people try and browbeat others into accepting their own personal music tastes.

Each to their own and mutual respect should be the touchstone.

chorley you have eloquently wrote something in your posts on here which describe what I and no doubt many others feel , who have been in the scene since the early days and as for progressive would ask that you read the goodtimes-brookfields thread in events lookback

thankyou for your honest commonsense approach

cheers barney

Edited September 30, 2009 by barney

Patto · September 30, 2009

This has been the best thread i've seen for ages, and the debate has made me re- evaluate my own opinions. Tell you what i'd just love to attend a soul night full of all the posters from this thread,100% till death Northern Soul's finest

Wrongcrowd · October 1, 2009

"But there was still a definiton of sound, a style factor which dictated the musical boundaries of the scene and to many people, that style aspect concludes around 76-77 with great records like FLAMING KING etc. That style aspect seems, over the years to have frustated many people and we had first 'The Modern Soul Scene' (Of which I loved a large number of records) and now a further kailedescope of tastes and styles, which for some reason, certain people seem intent on foisting onto the classic Northern Soul fan, with or without his or her's approval!"

That is complete and utter bollocks!!! Are you really denying the relevance of every 70's and 80's soul play within Northern clubs main rooms since '77 ? You really have got a distorted view of what the Northern scene has been about......this might fit your comfort zone, but it's so far away from the truth it's laughable. I'd completely understand your lack of attendance at Northern venues since '77, since you had so many other music styles......punk, jazz-funk...to fit in before you rejoined our happy band...so that might explain your seeming lack of experience of the music played.

I'd really like you to explain to me how tracks like the Anderson Brothers, Frankie Crocker, Nate Evans, Eloise Laws............are acceptable "Northern" tracks , just because they happened to be played at THE time, when similar styled tracks that came along later (post Wigan) are shuffled off to an alternative room, like some embarrassing relative turning up unexpectedly. I don't recall any surveys being conducted before the Jobell Orchestra (for instance) was "foistered" on an unsuspecting "classic Northern soul fan" of the day. So please don't try to pretend that the "Northern" scene of the day was anything other than a great mix of different and complimentary soul styles.

The "classic Northern soul fan" as you put it has more recently redefined Northern as uptempo 60's, white washing the past and small incedentals like Dave Godin raving over great Northern tracks like Wash And Wear Love, hardly a typical "Northern" sound, but a Northern classic, nevertheless.......I'm sure he'd have something to say about the diversity of styles if he was still around.

By the way it's Flame 'N' King....

October 1, 2009

Cliff, why do you DJ on the northern soul scene in the UK? Or maybe more specifically why do you promote your own event and DJ at Lifeline as they are the only places I've caught you out and about?

Chorely, why do you attend northern soul scene events? Where else do you go other than the 100 Club? Have you been to Lifeline or Creative Soul where Cliff DJs?

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

Wrongcrowd · October 1, 2009

Cliff, why do you DJ on the northern soul scene in the UK? Or maybe more specifically why do you promote your own event and DJ at Lifeline as they are the only places I've caught you out and about?

Simple question deserves a simple answer..........because I enjoy it, but as you know I don't limit DJing to strictly Northern rooms.

Lifeline is similarly the only place that I've caught you out and about.......you might want to try The Attic, United Sound of Soul, Boomerang, Soul Essence, Groovesville, Dab Of Soul, Hip City, Souln' Around, Select Soul.......but maybe you're right.....I should get out more.... :tongue: ...well, one of us should anyhow...

October 1, 2009

Simple question deserves a simple answer..........because I enjoy it,

Ok, that explains some of your reasoning. I see your angle now and understand why you enjoyed your Barcelona gig and why you find the frustrations of the wider northern soul scene to your broad tastes annoying.

But do you really only do it for selfish reasons? Personal gratification is the prime motive? :thumbup:

Surely the best part of the northern soul scene, the thing that makes those tingles down your spine and goose bumps on your arms when you look out at the dance floor of a packed allnighter is the unity, strength of numbers, the all nights dance of mutual appreciation and shared passion? Not a bunch of kids wiggling away who'll you'll never see again as they've moved onto the next craze that's featured on itunes's front page. It's the serious dance, purposeful celebration and recognition of otherwise forgotten genius amongst others who share your love of lost greatness?

Without an understanding and respect for that there are only selfish collectors, selfish collectors don't make the best DJs and without the best DJs there is no scene and no celebration? Just geeks in isolated rooms in front of computer screens flicking through bits of vinyl and swapping mp3s.

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

ImberBoy · October 1, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD9oSpPeybY

James I have to refer back to my original point and question, "are we failing as a music scene"

Historically (Is that the right word?) The Northernsoul Scene was born out of a resistance to being spoon fed the normal dross spawned from radios and the local chicken in a basket night clubs with their strict dress policy and reluctance to play anything other than the commercial staple of the day, this is well documented and most of the first Northernsoul CD's happily proclaimed this on their covers.

The scene was never about as you say "unity, strength of numbers", it was about an individual breaking away from the norm and stealing into the night as most were returning from their weekly bop.

The image of a young man or woman slipping into the shadows clutching a nighter bag and walking diffidently into a club. That club did not emit a welcome all creed, it exuded a dark and unknown ambience far away from Tiffany's or Romeo and Juliette.

It was only after the media became aware of the "Happening" that this became "Trendy" The music was never about finding a sound that could be moved into a sub main stream, again it is well documented that track that became popular were dropped like "Hot potatoes".

Fast forward to today, yes we do have the same tracks but these have entered into the sub mainstream, of course they are still good tracks but they have become a mill stone around the original concept of Northernsoul, we should be able to have both and yes we do have some venues who can blend both the sub main stream and the less known but that is the rub, most venues and it seams most people now are unable to accept any thing other than the tried, tiered.

No one would ever argue that there are excellent venues and no one could argue that there are people who will listen to the diversity of Northernsoul but the fact remains, we now have a majority who can not abide Northernsoul.

(Just to clarify that statement I want to establish that liking only a part of Northernsoul precludes you from stating that you like Northernsoul, it's like saying you love cheese burgers but you take the burger out, bad analogy but you get my drift?)

So what is the answer?

Well we can't fix people; people will like what they like. We can't fix promoters' and DJ's; they will play what they like.

What we can fix is the way venues advertise them selves, "An across the board music policy" or "Rarest of the rare" or "Anthems"

What we can do is have an agreed description for the type of music served and no I am not trying to lead any one into an ally here, we have a standard way of grading records such as

Vinyl Descriptions:

New: New

Sealed: Record is in it's original seal and has not been played.

Mint: Mint (as new). In perfect condition.

EX: Excellent. The record has no major marks or audible faults. It has been played, but well taken care of.

EX-: Excellent minus. The record shows some sign of having been played, but has very little lessening in sound quality. On an LP perhaps one or two tracks will have faint crackles or pops.

VG+: Very good plus.The record has been played regularly. There may be visual marks on the disc that are beginning to sound e.g. crackles on several tracks.

VG: Very good. The record has been played regularly and is showing signs of wear . There will be visual marks, and surface scratches, thus there will be audible pops and crackles. Or the pressing run may be poor, causing hiss.

G. Good. The record has been played many times, affecting the sound quality with pops and crackles, because of surface scratches and wear. Or it may be related to a poor pressing (see above). Will be intrusive if the music is quiet, but will play.

Any grade below Good, would indicate a record is not playable, because it may jump, stick etc. The vinyl would be effectively worthless, only of use as a collection filler.

Couldn't we have a better way of describing what we are about to receive at a venue before setting off to drive an hour or three and before the great bun fight starts?

What would the descriptions be?

KevH · October 1, 2009

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=eD9oSpPeybY

James I have to refer back to my original point and question, "are we failing as a music scene"

Historically (Is that the right word?) The Northernsoul Scene was born out of a resistance to being spoon fed the normal dross spawned from radios and the local chicken in a basket night clubs with their strict dress policy and reluctance to play anything other than the commercial staple of the day, this is well documented and most of the first Northernsoul CD's happily proclaimed this on their covers.

The scene was never about as you say "unity, strength of numbers", it was about an individual breaking away from the norm and stealing into the night as most were returning from their weekly bop.

The image of a young man or woman slipping into the shadows clutching a nighter bag and walking diffidently into a club. That club did not emit a welcome all creed, it exuded a dark and unknown ambience far away from Tiffany's or Romeo and Juliette.

It was only after the media became aware of the "Happening" that this became "Trendy" The music was never about finding a sound that could be moved into a sub main stream, again it is well documented that track that became popular were dropped like "Hot potatoes".

Fast forward to today, yes we do have the same tracks but these have entered into the sub mainstream, of course they are still good tracks but they have become a mill stone around the original concept of Northernsoul, we should be able to have both and yes we do have some venues who can blend both the sub main stream and the less known but that is the rub, most venues and it seams most people now are unable to accept any thing other than the tried, tiered.

No one would ever argue that there are excellent venues and no one could argue that there are people who will listen to the diversity of Northernsoul but the fact remains, we now have a majority who can not abide Northernsoul.

(Just to clarify that statement I want to establish that liking only a part of Northernsoul precludes you from stating that you like Northernsoul, it's like saying you love cheese burgers but you take the burger out, bad analogy but you get my drift?)

So what is the answer?

Well we can't fix people; people will like what they like. We can't fix promoters' and DJ's; they will play what they like.

What we can fix is the way venues advertise them selves, "An across the board music policy" or "Rarest of the rare" or "Anthems"

What we can do is have an agreed description for the type of music served and no I am not trying to lead any one into an ally here, we have a standard way of grading records such as

Vinyl Descriptions:

New: New

Sealed: Record is in it's original seal and has not been played.

Mint: Mint (as new). In perfect condition.

EX: Excellent. The record has no major marks or audible faults. It has been played, but well taken care of.

EX-: Excellent minus. The record shows some sign of having been played, but has very little lessening in sound quality. On an LP perhaps one or two tracks will have faint crackles or pops.

VG+: Very good plus.The record has been played regularly. There may be visual marks on the disc that are beginning to sound e.g. crackles on several tracks.

VG: Very good. The record has been played regularly and is showing signs of wear . There will be visual marks, and surface scratches, thus there will be audible pops and crackles. Or the pressing run may be poor, causing hiss.

G. Good. The record has been played many times, affecting the sound quality with pops and crackles, because of surface scratches and wear. Or it may be related to a poor pressing (see above). Will be intrusive if the music is quiet, but will play.

Any grade below Good, would indicate a record is not playable, because it may jump, stick etc. The vinyl would be effectively worthless, only of use as a collection filler.

Couldn't we have a better way of describing what we are about to receive at a venue before setting off to drive an hour or three and before the great bun fight starts?

What would the descriptions be?

All good points Imber,but are you suggesting the venues as well get a grading? If so who from?

October 1, 2009

All good points Imber,but are you suggesting the venues as well get a grading? If so who from?

Yes, fair points, see where he's coming from, but he says right at the start:

"The scene was never about as you say "unity, strength of numbers", itwas about an individual breaking away from the norm and stealing intothe night as most were returning from their weekly bop."

If there are not numbers and unity there is no scene, so the rest of his argument is irrelevant as he assumes there is a scene without unity and numbers.

But yes, it's a fine line between mass market and unity of celebration. That's what marks the difference between the great DJs and those in it for personal reasons.

An understanding of the fine line and being able to walk it while carrying the burden of the scene on his back.

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

Modernsoulsucks · October 1, 2009

Im following this just so I can sit my grandchildren on my knee one day and tell them about the time when JT was the voice of reason and fairness between two warring parties.

I don't know but Im wondering if there isn't some misunderstanding between Chorley and Cliff[is it?].

At first glance it does come across as if Cliff is supporting the idea of a wide range of styles of music getting played to attract a younger crowd.He mentions jazz,funk,latin. This is where Chorley's reference to warehouse scene comes in. However I did "google" Cliff's playlists the other day [altho can't find 'em now]. Think I noticed Purple Mundi and other stuff I knew alongside stuff I didn't. Whatever, it fitted in with Chorley's "ideal" which was a mix of oldies,underplayed and newies. Cliff wasn't departing at all from the non-oldies strand, albeit a leaning towards 70's upwards. I think. Maybe Cliff could post a playlist.

The only observations I'd make is that if Cliff has a vision it's immaterial what the oldies crowd like so there's no need to denigrate them. And I fail to see how the "progressive" end of the scene has any more life in it than the oldies unless the age range of the goers is a lot less than that of the oldies fans. I take the point that it is abroad but at Lifeline etc?

I also think JT hit the spot when he mentioned soul rather than scene fans. Contrary to popular belief a lot of the guys like myself who started on a predominantly 60's scene liked other forms of soul music so the introduction of a more contempory sound wasn't the massive leap it's sometimes portrayed. Yes there was some argie-bargie especially when the Mecca maybe went too far into jazz-funk or whatever but by end of Wigan there was a second wave of danceable 70's 45s with a Northern feel which were extremely popular [Pages,ZZ&Co] and whenever I've been to a ATB [mainly oldies] local do those sounds are well represented because that's what a lot of people associate with the end of Wigan,rather than Del-Tours and Topics.

I guess the 70's sound being contemporary attracted a lot of younger people back then but I wouldn't have thought it was a factor now. Of course Im assuming there that Cliff's idea of progressive does feature a less 60's orientated style. Probably depends on where he is playing.

ROD

October 1, 2009

WRONGCROWD SAID:

That is complete and utter bollocks!!! Are you really denying the relevance of every 70's and 80's soul play within Northern clubs main rooms since '77 ? You really have got a distorted view of what the Northern scene has been about......this might fit your comfort zone, but it's so far away from the truth it's laughable. I'd completely understand your lack of attendance at Northern venues since '77, since you had so many other music styles......punk, jazz-funk...to fit in before you rejoined our happy band...so that might explain your seeming lack of experience of the music played.

I'd really like you to explain to me how tracks like the Anderson Brothers, Frankie Crocker, Nate Evans, Eloise Laws............are acceptable "Northern" tracks , just because they happened to be played at THE time, when similar styled tracks that came along later (post Wigan) are shuffled off to an alternative room, like some embarrassing relative turning up unexpectedly. I don't recall any surveys being conducted before the Jobell Orchestra (for instance) was "foistered" on an unsuspecting "classic Northern soul fan" of the day. So please don't try to pretend that the "Northern" scene of the day was anything other than a great mix of different and complimentary soul styles.

The "classic Northern soul fan" as you put it has more recently redefined Northern as uptempo 60's, white washing the past and small incedentals like Dave Godin raving over great Northern tracks like Wash And Wear Love, hardly a typical "Northern" sound, but a Northern classic, nevertheless.......I'm sure he'd have something to say about the diversity of styles if he was still around.

By the way it's Flame 'N' King....

CHORLEYSOUL SAID:

Well done mate, well spotted that it's FLAME 'N' KING, cardinal sin, hang my head in shame!

Now this is getting a little silly. You are twisting my words and obviously a bit annoyed and frustrated because somebody will not hail your viewpoints as the gospel according to Northern Soul. I will attempt to respond to all your points but I am starting to tire of this. It's boring, quite frankly and the spirit of this thread is probably going to evaporate if it continures much longer but that's usually where this argument takes people.

You are also making some very silly assumptions or should I say presumptions about what I've been doing since 1977, when you do not even know me!

As for my attendance, sorry to pop your balloon, but your razor sharp observation skills regarding 'punk, Jazz Funk etc' have little to do with reality. In truth, it fits your agenda to imply that I had a thirty year lay off which sadly is not the case. I am certainly not going to sit here listing my attendance record to people like you and JAMES but rest assurred mate, since 1977, I have always retained my passion for Northern Soul and I have been to countless venues since that time. It is actually possible to enjoy more than one cultural environment at a time you know! I also used to frequent Reggae 'Blues' clubs for many years, you know the unlicensed, rough and ready type of place that you fall out of on a bright Sunday morning and wonder where you went the night before, but that's another story. Does that also disqualify me from your definition of a true Soul fan? You are a mass of contradictions CLIFF, on the one hand you preach for diversity and yet then take a pop, outlining somebody's 'broad' musical consumption. Strange that. Or is it 'diversity' within your definition that is acceptable. Hmmmmmmmm.

No I am not 'DENYING THE RELAVENCE OF EVERY 70S AND 80S SOUL PLAY IN THE NORTHERN MAIN ROOMS SINCE 77'. I point out I have included 70s in every definition I have made. In case you missed it, I also stated that I liked a lot of the records classed as 'Modern Soul' or did you miss that bit too? Secondly, when I mentioned the years 76-77, I did so in terms of a musical 'style', not a closing barrier for records after that date but again you have an agenda so you are attempting to pigeonhole and distort.

If you are asking me about personal taste, I do not like a huge amount of 80s records, I find the production aspects clumsy and artificial, factors reflecting the then emerging replacement of real musical ingredients with keyboards and work machines.

Of course there are records made in the 80s which possess a throwback style and those are the type of tunes which I have little problem with. But to try and purport that DJ's do not get excited when they find something which was made in 1985 but sounds like it could have come from 1976 is bullshit mate, because that is exactly the type of tune which would have a chance of mass appeal and you know that. BECAUSE IT RETAINS AN ELEMENT OF A SOUL ESSENCE THAT ATTRACTED MANY PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. I could actually name tons of tunes like that which have been big on the scene over the last decade or so, but according to you, I have no knowledge of anything after '77. That is what is laughable mate, but I am not here to prove my credentials to you. I have simply stated my musical preference and it's you who seems to have a problem with that.

WRONGCROWD SAID:

'PLEASE DONT TRY TO PRETEND THAT THE NORTHERN SCENE OF THE DAY WAS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A GREAT MIX OF DIFFERENT AND COMPLIMENTARY

SOUL STYLES'.

CHORLEYSOUL SAID:

CLIFF there have always been maverick records (i.e ones that came from a seemingly 'left-field' style factor) that crossed over into the Northern scene. But to try and pretend that the types of sets you'd hear at somewhere like YATE etc, did not differ from the type of playlists apparent on the 'warehouse' scene is ridiculous. That is why I still liked to go to Northern Soul venues even when I was frequenting Funk clubs. Because it was great to get back and hear a night of mid-tempo to uptempto 60s and 70s Soul toons rather than Latin, Hard Funk, Jazz and all the stuff that was mixed together in those original Southern pre-Dance clubs. Complimentary Soul Styles??? Of course there were complimentary Soul styles, where on earth have I implied any different for god's sake? It is you who keeps attempting to classify my passions as reserved strictly for what you call 'on the fours 60s', again, because that fits your agenda of classifying everybody who prefers older records as a clueless cretin. I have quite clearly listed a number of classic Northern Soul artists which exhibited a wide array of musical style. I think you are getting a little confused here.

I stand by the definition 'Midtempo-Uptempo American Soul Records from the 60s and 70s' as a reasonble creative definition of what the Northern Soul scene represents musically. If you want to stretch that to 'and records from the 80s which sound like they could have been made in the 70s, or possess a lot of elements which would appeal to people who like the original definition', I have no problem with that. But as somebody else has pointed out, it is still essentially a retro scene when those mechanics are applied. If you are going to progress beyond those barriers, you risk going down the path that IAN LEVINE took, one where he later stated 'we went too far'. At the end of the day the contemporary R'n'B/hip Hop scene is out there for people who really want to preach the gospel of contemporary Black American Music. Records from the 1980s are simply not 'new' records mate. They might be be 'new' in the sense they have not been played on the scene but they are far from 'fresh' and 'new' in the way for instance, those aspects would be understood by many Black Guys from the Southern Soul scene over the last thirty years.

As for ELOISE LAWS (One of my all-time top 20 records by the way), THE ANDERSON BROS etc. I have been involved on a number of occasions in promoting smallish do's in the South of England and personally I have never attempted to 'censor' any records. So of course again, this is a very vauge and sweeping genreralism which is almost impossible to address. I cannot respond on behalf of any particular Promoters which you have a problem with. I have never had a problem with venues which play 60s and 70s in the same rooms, because that's what was happening when I first got into it, so why should I have a problem now? Yet again, it is you who is implying that perhaps I would do.

As for hearing Records which I don't know, have always loved that and always will. What I like to hear though is a mixture. I like to hear quality Soul records. Some breaking records, some classic oldies and some lesser played, neglected 60s and 70s, of which there are indeed, still a huge pile of records

waiting to be celebrated.

As for quoting DAVE GODIN at me. Again, that is a huge question you have skated across there. For a start DAVE GODIN believed strongly in equal rights and I don't think he would have appreciated much of the scorn, sarcasm and downright spite handed out on here amongst supposed 'Soul Brothers' - simply on the grounds of differing tastes in music too - no, not in the slightest. Secondly, I happen to believe American Soul Music is a bona-fide Modern Art form. As with all art forms, there are peaks and troughs. It is my personal conviciton, that as a Modern Art form and for a number of significant reasons, both musical and cultural, American Soul Music reached it's absolute creative peak in the 60S and 70s. This maybe something you disagree with, I dont really know, but it is a position I maintain. However, I do not wish to go further in examining that question in this thread.

All the best

ImberBoy · October 1, 2009

The thing about "unity, strength of numbers" is going to become a bit of a red herring on this thread.

The scene was an underground scene or at least described as underground due to its size and distance from the main stream.

I like to think we are still away from the mainstream but the paradox is that we have a mainstream within our group and yes it is large when comparing the numbers attending Stoke to say the 100 Club.

James I think we both agree that there are numbers and unity within a large portion of our scene.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John

I am not suggesting a venue gets a grading, I am suggesting that a venue promoter should state clearly what he/she is offering rather than some imagined concept based on a broad brush explanation.

I am saying that there is a too often a disparity of what you get at the venue compared to what you read on the flyers now days.

I think a promoter should be more up front and a little more descriptive on their advertising rather than leave it to word of mouth.

Word of mouth is great and it works on the local scene and on the nighter scene to an extent but the majority of people who have contributed to this thread have a shared experience which is one of disappointment and this is true for either side of the fence.

Garethx · October 1, 2009

I half-jokingly proposed the use of an Original Vinyl Only kitemark on promotional materials for events last year.

An interesting thread. My own intuition is that the 'corporate' oldies-oriented event is far removed from the scene's roots, but that's not to say it's necessarily a bad thing. To me it is a by-product of everyone (promoters and paying customers) getting a lot older.

Forty years ago there were no models for the way in which youth cults might develop and endure. I'm sure few people had any idea at the age of sixteen that they might still be interested in collecting records, travelling the country and staying up all night well into their fifties and sixties.

ImberBoy · October 1, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj0g37AJw1I

Listen to this a few times, three will do. You dont have to like it but try :-)

jocko · October 1, 2009

Christ all mighty, I have never seen so many people trying so hard to score points and debating nothing to do with the actual points, particularly, as usual Mr Chorley Soul.

The main point to me, ignoring Imbers ramblings as I always do, Cliff has made is the "scene" is far too one dimensional now, uptempo 60's only and it was never like this back in the day, and in effect this is killing both the attraction of the scene and the quality of music played. Yes he may have got dragged into a few rambling asides, (normally based on Chorley*** telling us how wonderful he is and how many different things he has done, what religion we should follow and his opinions should be treated as fact, despite not actually backing it up with experiences), but that is still the main point for me.

And whatever anyone else wants to say, that is a fact, I was a regular on this scene from 78-95ish, and other than 60's fascism (off which I was a card paying member on and off, but that is a different thread) having a few splurges of power during this period that was how it is, how do I know, I was there. Therefore its fact. I do not think Cliff is advocating playing Bootsy Collins, John Coltrane or Idris Muhammad (pun intended), and he is certainly not advocating Warehouse style music lists (Queen anyone!) but records that fit into this wide banner of Northern Soul, and it is a wide banner based on records actually accepted, again surely there can be no argument to that. It only became so one dimensional mid 90's when the hordes started charging backwards towards the decks, memories of their long gone youth suddenly fresh, and the scene splintered, if not shattered, this is why I still think the Nostalgia scne has had a detrimental effect on my scene, however I wasn't really there then as it was of least interest to me due to the quality going by then and was at home with my music (well also in Houseland but that is also another story)

I am always amazed at when people like Cliff argue for some quality of music they are shouted down as "Soul Police" or similar insults, why, are people offended that people actually care about the music rather than just the scene, is the easy way forward really the only way??

Second point that Chorley is making, in there somewhere, is he really doesn't care anymore, he just wants to go out and get pis**ed and relive the early Hampstead days, good on you mate but its nothing to do with the scene Cliff is talking about so why don't you stick to what you know, because you don't care about the progression within the scene why shouldn't others. Northern has never been just about a good night out, the fact we could have damned good night out with great music and great people was because people cared enough to put progressive stuff on and stick their neck out. The fact you don't care anymore makes your views irrelevant.

Now James, you are just trying to point score against Cliff, still smarting from the time you took a virtual beating off him, please, you should be bigger than that, you are just living down to an awful lot of peoples expectations off you, I thought better of you, I really did. A few specific points,

(a) Cliff didn't say he didn't enjoy others enjoying it, you are putting words in his mouth and trying to score points, I assume you have your short trousers on. Exactly what scene are you talking about when you describe this unit, not Stoke by any chance is it.......

( The scene you ridicule in your response , the young people not knowing anything about anything and moving on, is exactly the one you championed so many times before, the one you said was the future of NS, one that most resembles your Friday night in Chelmsford I believe, and the very one we had our first spat over as I told you were talking bolloks, the one championed by you and your mate from Portishead or whoever that I said wouldn't be here in 5 years (50% right so far, had higher hopes for you, but if your principles go as easy as they seem to be well.....). So why the change now, when some of us are maybe thinking you had something in your original views, are you a Salvadors all night man now, rather than just to get the party started. Do you now champion the traditional route you have fought so hard against up to now. Why would that be James, lets take a guess, Stoke again maybe......

Why don't you go back to doing what you do best rather than just trying to even scores on here lad?

Final questions, as you tax payers could be paying me to type this,

Barney and Casper (now gone interestingly) where did you actually go between 1981 and 1995, I am interested in which venues suited your narrow tastes in these days? Actually Chorley, I would be interested also in where you went then. It would make far easier to understand your points if I understood at what point you changed.

And my final word and summary, there is no scene, it's a lot of ego driven local scenes and in many ways the only one that comes together is the progressive one, although that seems to be even less these days, too many dj's not enough music driven fans that enjoy the scene rather than vice versa, where is the new Keb and Guy to lead the next Soul Revolution (a name James I am assuming you will be changing given your responses above), in many ways the Nostalgia scene is just an irrelevant diversion, although a divisive one I still think, personally I don't care what decade that music comes from as long as its fresh and exciting, or maybe it is all over.........or maybe not, Butch's funky spots, anyone want to discuss?

*** Apologies to all other members with Chorley in their name, used the abbreviated term to save my typing fingers, but maybe to avoid any confusion you should let ChorleySoul be the only one to have this name, sve you embarrasment when people think you are him :thumbup:

Wrongcrowd · October 1, 2009

But do you really only do it for selfish reasons? Personal gratification is the prime motive?

Not a bunch of kids wiggling away who'll you'll never see again as they've moved onto the next craze that's featured on itunes's front page. It's the serious dance, purposeful celebration and recognition of otherwise forgotten genius amongst others who share your love of lost greatness?

So the bunch of wiggling kids couldn't possibly have passion for the music and understanding for a "scene" then James...you need to get yourself out to some of the European events to experience the appreciation and love they have for the music, before you generalise in such a demeaning and ignorant way. I'm sure you'd find some of these wiggling kids are far more knowledgable and less wet behind the ears than others that spring to mind.........

October 1, 2009

Now then Jocko, don't be chucking any hand grenades about.

I'd best answer your points, and then you can put the pin back in...

October 1, 2009

So the bunch of wiggling kids couldn't possibly have passion for the music and understanding for a "scene" then James...you need to get yourself out to some of the European events to experience the appreciation and love they have for the music, before you generalise in such a demeaning and ignorant way. I'm sure you'd find some of these wiggling kids are far more knowledgable and less wet behind the ears than others that spring to mind.........

:ohmy:

Now then, I understand this Euro thing is all new for you, good out there, innit? But I've been playing all over the Euroland for getting on for 10 years maybe 9, I think the only place I've not done is France, and a coupe of the odd countries like Bulgaria and Slovakia. Anyway...

Of course the youth can get into it, and they do. And that's why I do it. I'm happy to put nights on and DJ at nights that are not as satisfying as DJing at a great scene events in the UK to try and find those that will go on and grow and realise the satisfaction we all get from being part of the northern soul scene and add to the celebration of records that would otherwise not be appreciated as the works of art they are.

That's why I do it. Not for personal satisfaction, it's for what I think is the right and just thing to do.

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

ImberBoy · October 1, 2009

Oi Jocko, what have I done to warrant that little dig?

Never offended you mate, never even met you before so why take a swipe at me?

You start an essay with a cheap shot at me, why?

Can we all please refrain from being personal or we will end up having this thread closed, Jocko make your point mate but please don't get personal, PM me if you have a gripe, I am big enough and ugly enough to take it but doing it on a thread and hiding it at the top of your passage is the mark of a coward!

October 1, 2009

Oi Jocko, what have I done to warrant that little dig?

Can we all please refrain from being personal or we will end up having this thread closed, Jocko make your point mate but please don't get personal, PM me if you have a gripe, I am big enough and ugly enough to take it but doing it on a thread and hiding it at the top of your passage is the mark of a coward!

I agree, bit of a naughty hand grenade there from Jocko in an otherwise interesting and constructive discussion.

jocko · October 1, 2009

Oi Jocko, what have I done to warrant that little dig?

Never offended you mate, never even met you before so why take a swipe at me?

You start an essay with a cheap shot at me, why?

Can we all please refrain from being personal or we will end up having this thread closed, Jocko make your point mate but please don't get personal, PM me if you have a gripe, I am big enough and ugly enough to take it but doing it on a thread and hiding it at the top of your passage is the mark of a coward!

I hope you dont mind I answer here rather than PM, don't want to be accused of being a coward, and don't want James to think I am ignoring his diversionary answers.

I said it because you ramble, self explanatory I thought and generally I do not read your responses as I didn't on here, Your penchant to throw in crap jokes, ala Patrick Hernandez and much worse, and often just babble ala your grading response up there often just belittles any debate going on, so I ignore your posts normally. Sorry if that seems harsh but you did ask, and in all honesty maybe if more of the people who do mention this said it you, you wouldn't be surprised.

Sorry, feel free to send me threats by PM, it seems to be the normal response for people hearing home truths they dont like,. and in case you do want to reflect, why dont you click on your last posts and read through them.

I really do have to go and earn my dosh now!

October 1, 2009

Jocko:

(a) Cliff didn't say he didn't enjoy others enjoying it, you areputting words in his mouth and trying to score points, I assume youhave your short trousers on. Exactly what scene are you talking aboutwhen you describe this unit, not Stoke by any chance is it…….

(B)The scene you ridicule in your response , the young people not knowinganything about anything and moving on, is exactly the one youchampioned so many times before, the one you said was the future of NS,one that most resembles your Friday night in Chelmsford I believe, andthe very one we had our first spat over as I told you were talkingbolloks, the one championed by you and your mate from Portishead orwhoever that I said wouldn't be here in 5 years (50% right so far, hadhigher hopes for you, but if your principles go as easy as they seem tobe well…..). So why the change now, when some of us are maybe thinkingyou had something in your original views, are you a Salvadors all nightman now, rather than just to get the party started. Do you now championthe traditional route you have fought so hard against up to now. Whywould that be James, lets take a guess, Stoke again maybe……

Why don't you go back to doing what you do best rather than just trying to even scores on here lad?

a) No not describing Stoke. Why? It's any good night, could be Soul Or Nothing, 100 Club, Stoke, Burnley, Lifeline, anyway. Don't be daft, it's any group of people as one celebrating wonderful music that would otherwise be forgotten if it wasn't for us, all of us, the scene.

b ) See my response to Cliff.

No point scoring, just a constructive discussion. Chorley has made some points that I and I suspect others would naturally disagree with, but he does back them up and make them quite well.

I would naturally side with Cliff's argument but he's not really making it very well, is he? About pushing boundaries and moving things forward. He seems to be saying he thinks he knows better than the northern scene, as it is today, and he plays records that he likes and gets satisfaction from having lots of people dancing to them, and that's the reason he's doing it. Am I wrong?

Can you put the pin back in now, please. It's a good thread.

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

jocko · October 1, 2009

[/quote name='James Trouble' date='01 October 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1254399382' post='1162500']

No point scoring, just a constructive discussion. Chorley has made some points that I and I suspect others would naturally disagree with, but he does back them up and make them quite well.

I would naturally side with Cliff's argument but he's not really making it very well, is he? About pushing boundaries and moving things forward. He seems to be saying he thinks he knows better than the northern scene, as it is today, and he plays records that he likes and gets satisfaction from having lots of people dancing to them, and that's the reason he's doing it. Am I wrong?[/b]

October 1, 2009

Yes you are and you know it, but the rest is up to you. And you are still avoiding many of my main points, I am really off now, lets see how the good discussion progresses.

What am I ignoring? That I play Salvadors? Not played it for an age if it matters, maybe last time I spun it was at the old Lifeline venue when I had to fill an empty dance floor the DJ before me had left, but what is your point? You want me to playlist my last set? Might still be in order in my box... What traditional route? What's that? And what has Stoke got to do with any points about the scene going full circle?

Anyway, think your grenade has gone off before you got the pin back in, so I'm leaving this thread now. Well done, pop in, chuck it around and fack arf without contributing to the discussion

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

KevH · October 1, 2009

Christ all mighty, I have never seen so many people trying so hard to score points and debating nothing to do with the actual points, particularly, as usual Mr Chorley Soul.

The main point to me, ignoring Imbers ramblings as I always do, Cliff has made is the "scene" is far too one dimensional now, uptempo 60's only and it was never like this back in the day, and in effect this is killing both the attraction of the scene and the quality of music played. Yes he may have got dragged into a few rambling asides, (normally based on Chorley*** telling us how wonderful he is and how many different things he has done, what religion we should follow and his opinions should be treated as fact, despite not actually backing it up with experiences), but that is still the main point for me.

And whatever anyone else wants to say, that is a fact, I was a regular on this scene from 78-95ish, and other than 60's fascism (off which I was a card paying member on and off, but that is a different thread) having a few splurges of power during this period that was how it is, how do I know, I was there. Therefore its fact. I do not think Cliff is advocating playing Bootsy Collins, John Coltrane or Idris Muhammad (pun intended), and he is certainly not advocating Warehouse style music lists (Queen anyone!) but records that fit into this wide banner of Northern Soul, and it is a wide banner based on records actually accepted, again surely there can be no argument to that. It only became so one dimensional mid 90's when the hordes started charging backwards towards the decks, memories of their long gone youth suddenly fresh, and the scene splintered, if not shattered, this is why I still think the Nostalgia scne has had a detrimental effect on my scene, however I wasn't really there then as it was of least interest to me due to the quality going by then and was at home with my music (well also in Houseland but that is also another story)

I am always amazed at when people like Cliff argue for some quality of music they are shouted down as "Soul Police" or similar insults, why, are people offended that people actually care about the music rather than just the scene, is the easy way forward really the only way??

Second point that Chorley is making, in there somewhere, is he really doesn't care anymore, he just wants to go out and get pis**ed and relive the early Hampstead days, good on you mate but its nothing to do with the scene Cliff is talking about so why don't you stick to what you know, because you don't care about the progression within the scene why shouldn't others. Northern has never been just about a good night out, the fact we could have damned good night out with great music and great people was because people cared enough to put progressive stuff on and stick their neck out. The fact you don't care anymore makes your views irrelevant.

Now James, you are just trying to point score against Cliff, still smarting from the time you took a virtual beating off him, please, you should be bigger than that, you are just living down to an awful lot of peoples expectations off you, I thought better of you, I really did. A few specific points,

(a) Cliff didn't say he didn't enjoy others enjoying it, you are putting words in his mouth and trying to score points, I assume you have your short trousers on. Exactly what scene are you talking about when you describe this unit, not Stoke by any chance is it.......

( The scene you ridicule in your response , the young people not knowing anything about anything and moving on, is exactly the one you championed so many times before, the one you said was the future of NS, one that most resembles your Friday night in Chelmsford I believe, and the very one we had our first spat over as I told you were talking bolloks, the one championed by you and your mate from Portishead or whoever that I said wouldn't be here in 5 years (50% right so far, had higher hopes for you, but if your principles go as easy as they seem to be well.....). So why the change now, when some of us are maybe thinking you had something in your original views, are you a Salvadors all night man now, rather than just to get the party started. Do you now champion the traditional route you have fought so hard against up to now. Why would that be James, lets take a guess, Stoke again maybe......

Why don't you go back to doing what you do best rather than just trying to even scores on here lad?

Final questions, as you tax payers could be paying me to type this,

Barney and Casper (now gone interestingly) where did you actually go between 1981 and 1995, I am interested in which venues suited your narrow tastes in these days? Actually Chorley, I would be interested also in where you went then. It would make far easier to understand your points if I understood at what point you changed.

And my final word and summary, there is no scene, it's a lot of ego driven local scenes and in many ways the only one that comes together is the progressive one, although that seems to be even less these days, too many dj's not enough music driven fans that enjoy the scene rather than vice versa, where is the new Keb and Guy to lead the next Soul Revolution (a name James I am assuming you will be changing given your responses above), in many ways the Nostalgia scene is just an irrelevant diversion, although a divisive one I still think, personally I don't care what decade that music comes from as long as its fresh and exciting, or maybe it is all over.........or maybe not, Butch's funky spots, anyone want to discuss?

*** Apologies to all other members with Chorley in their name, used the abbreviated term to save my typing fingers, but maybe to avoid any confusion you should let ChorleySoul be the only one to have this name, sve you embarrasment when people think you are him

Careful Jocko,nearly as long a piece as Chorley.Would like to answer a couple of points you raised before going back to put some grease on the cat's boil.

Quality of music - as some of us have grown older,we are looking for more than just dancefloor gratification.Saying that ,at 3 am ,midtempo may not keep us awake,hence a return to Oldies or 60's uptempo.A bit of nostalgia never did us harm.

Ego driven local scenes - not quite sure what you're getting at.If somewhere/someone is enjoying themselves,having a good time,what's wrong with shouting about it?

On this scene,(or what's left of it according to this thread!!!),there's always someone "who's been there, done that".Once you understand that,you can kick back and enjoy.There's a few "local" venues who all hold the same philosophy,maybe if they were a "Collective" ...........

Who's the next Keb and Guy? - Well, may be wrong here,but didn't they have access to a couple of thousand of mainly unplayed tunes to help them along?.If that could happen again,who know's?.

Lastly,the full circle has been reached by this thread.Opinion,insults,opinion.

Edited October 1, 2009 by KevH

ImberBoy · October 1, 2009

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvTPpN_X20

Jocko two things

1. Don't you ever slate Patrick Hernandez!

2. Er I think I actually started this thread?

Right teddies back in the pram, I apologies unreservedly to any soulsourcer who has been offended at my childish postings on here, hows that Jocko?

Now lets stop playing silly buggers and get back to a decent debate.

Wrongcrowd · October 1, 2009

Im following this just so I can sit my grandchildren on my knee one day and tell them about the time when JT was the voice of reason and fairness between two warring parties.

I don't know but Im wondering if there isn't some misunderstanding between Chorley and Cliff[is it?].

At first glance it does come across as if Cliff is supporting the idea of a wide range of styles of music getting played to attract a younger crowd.He mentions jazz,funk,latin. This is where Chorley's reference to warehouse scene comes in. However I did "google" Cliff's playlists the other day [altho can't find 'em now]. Think I noticed Purple Mundi and other stuff I knew alongside stuff I didn't. Whatever, it fitted in with Chorley's "ideal" which was a mix of oldies,underplayed and newies. Cliff wasn't departing at all from the non-oldies strand, albeit a leaning towards 70's upwards. I think. Maybe Cliff could post a playlist.

Of course Im assuming there that Cliff's idea of progressive does feature a less 60's orientated style. Probably depends on where he is playing.

ROD

Here you go Rod...................

Not what I would call a significantly progressive set...but I would hope it's a departure from the same old tried and fully tested floor fillers.....Salvadors springs to mind for some reason.... .....and you're right I will vary a playlist according to the venue and crowd

Just for the record.....latin.....not really my thing.....but I'm sure it's wonderful music (just to head off any further tangents)....and warehouse music....?? I'm not even sure what that is

Cliff

Edited October 1, 2009 by Wrongcrowd

jocko · October 1, 2009

What am I ignoring? That I play Salvadors? Not played it for an age if it matters, maybe last time I spun it was at the old Lifeline venue when I had to fill an empty dance floor the DJ before me had left, but what is your point? You want me to playlist my last set? Might still be in order in my box... What traditional route? What's that? And what has Stoke got to do with any points about the scene going full circle?

Anyway, think your grenade has gone off before you got the pin back in, so I'm leaving this thread now. Well done, pop in, chuck it around and fack arf without contributing to the discussion

James you are regressing further into your childhood by the minute.

I really do need to go and do some work but so I am not misrepresented by other points, I didn't say anything about it being bad or good specifically about playing Salvadors, I used it as an analogy of traditional vs progressive, and if you read it properly I probably complimented your use of it at Lifeline, a case of woods and trees here.

My main point is your change in direction, away from these trendy dos to a more traditional based Northern scene, no matter what you say there is no other way your first response can be read and thats what Chorley is advocating. So either you are saying it to annoy CLiff or you have changed. Simple really. If calling me silly names is your only way of answering this, which is actually at the crux of the debate of why the scene has gone tits up when you think about it, then so be it.

October 1, 2009

Here you go Rod...................
Not what I would call a significantly progressive set...
Cliff

Can see where your frustration comes from. If you can't play what you consider to be a progressive set at what Chalky has described somewhere as the only truly upfront event in the country (maybe his upfront is not your upfront?), it's got to be a head fuck for someone naturally wanting to push things forward?

And there we go back to the scene lover or soul lover balance again.

You obviously care for scene, even if you say you don't, otherwise you wouldn't compromise your set at what is claimed to be the most upfront event in the country?

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

October 1, 2009

James you are regressing further into your childhood by the minute.

I really do need to go and do some work but so I am not misrepresented by other points, I didn't say anything about it being bad or good specifically about playing Salvadors, I used it as an analogy of traditional vs progressive, and if you read it properly I probably complimented your use of it at Lifeline, a case of woods and trees here.

My main point is your change in direction, away from these trendy dos to a more traditional based Northern scene, no matter what you say there is no other way your first response can be read and thats what Chorley is advocating. So either you are saying it to annoy CLiff or you have changed. Simple really. If calling me silly names is your only way of answering this, which is actually at the crux of the debate of why the scene has gone tits up when you think about it, then so be it.

Ok, sorry about the silly wanker emocon, I do like it though :ohmy:

Stoke, Way off topic, but Kev has asked me to do my thing there on Saturday, I'm more than happy to. How does that compromise who I am or what I believe in? The new rare room looks like the nuts, you coming down for it? Would be good to see you for a chat over a beer.

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

Wrongcrowd · October 1, 2009

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=Mj0g37AJw1I

Listen to this a few times, three will do. You dont have to like it but try :-)

You see.......that's what I'm talking about.....though it was big on the modern scene....or do I mean warehouse scene ?? a few years back....killer soul tune...

Corbett80 · October 1, 2009

'fack arf'

Is this German?! Or Welsh maybe?

Edited October 1, 2009 by mulf

October 1, 2009

'fack arf'

Is this German?! Or Welsh maybe?

No, it's Toff. Say the arf bit with you lips in a circle shape and with a Lady Di accent.

It means to go away, or to ask someone else to go away.

Edited October 1, 2009 by James Trouble

jocko · October 1, 2009

Quality of music - as some of us have grown older,we are looking for more than just dancefloor gratification.Saying that ,at 3 am ,midtempo may not keep us awake,hence a return to Oldies or 60's uptempo.A bit of nostalgia never did us harm.

A quicky Kev, I really do have to earn the Queens shilling, oops just did, I meant have to do some work to justify earning it.

I didn't say anything about tempos or oldies did I? I said new and exciting, other than the occasional Butch/Mr Dyson isn't everything an oldie of a sort. I certainly do not expect 8 hours of new music all night, not sure I could cope, all I am saying about quality is it nees to be fresh and exciting, that surely fits all tempos and genres, it does for me. As someone who spent most of the early days in record bars, I certainly don't need dancefloor gratification, but in all honesty it helps these days as I don't go out as often.

Not really sure what bit of my point you are getting at there.

Ego driven local scenes - not quite sure what you're getting at.If somewhere/someone is enjoying themselves,having a good time,what's wrong with shouting about it?
On this scene,(or what's left of it according to this thread!!!),there's always someone "who's been there, done that".Once you understand that,you can kick back and enjoy.There's a few "local" venues who all hold the same philosophy,maybe if they were a "Collective" ...........

I wasn't meaning about shouting about nights, that's more important than ever, I was more meaning driven by guys who don't travel anywhere else, put a night on so they can dj and eventually dj at 4 other monthly nights, I still think this has an impact on the progressive scene as it means the potential crowds have it on their doorstep, even though it is often a dilution of the real thing, IMO.

I am not getting at soul nights in general here, if I lived closer sure I could find one a week that would satisfy me, just from afar I do think it impacts on nighters particularly as I say the ones that do not actually contribute to any wider scene.

Who's the next Keb and Guy? - Well, may be wrong here,but didn't they have access to a couple of thousand of mainly unplayed tunes to help them along?.If that could happen again,who know's?.

That was a bit tongue in cheek but does seriously ask the question is "it" all over........or maybe in reality asks the question what is "it" these days, which is why I thought it was relevant to this debate. I suspect "it" has changed for most of us, I still argue that does not mean the quality of music should suffer, which it often does.

Right teddies back in the pram, I apologies unreservedly to any soulsourcer who has been offended at my childish postings on here, hows that Jocko?

Now lets stop playing silly buggers and get back to a decent debate.

I don't think I said offended, and if you read lots of my posts you will see there is often tongue in cheek references, which given your sense of humour (which I seem to be alone in not getting I should say) I thought you would have realise.

I am really gone now.

Modernsoulsucks · October 1, 2009

Oi Jocko, what have I done to warrant that little dig?

Never offended you mate, never even met you before so why take a swipe at me?

You start an essay with a cheap shot at me, why?

Can we all please refrain from being personal or we will end up having this thread closed, Jocko make your point mate but please don't get personal, PM me if you have a gripe, I am big enough and ugly enough to take it but doing it on a thread and hiding it at the top of your passage is the mark of a coward!

I think Simon it's rather difficult to fathom where you are coming from. Whilst you don't appear to have much time for the oldies crowd you are posting on another thread and seemingly extolling the virtues of Helen Shapiro and Tom Jones but then it might be a joke. I can't personally tell.

HS and TJ are my idea of "nightmare" records and probably Jocko's too so without being in on it it's hard to take some points you make at face value or seriously.

ROD

ritchie · October 1, 2009

What am I ignoring? That I play Salvadors? Not played it for an age if it matters, maybe last time I spun it was at the old Lifeline venue when I had to fill an empty dance floor the DJ before me had left, but what is your point? You want me to playlist my last set? Might still be in order in my box... What traditional route? What's that? And what has Stoke got to do with any points about the scene going full circle?

Anyway, think your grenade has gone off before you got the pin back in, so I'm leaving this thread now. Well done, pop in, chuck it around and fack arf without contributing to the discussion

Is the demo rarer than the issue ??

grenade.bmp

ImberBoy · October 1, 2009

Modernsoulsucks why do you find it necessary to fathom where I am coming from?

Should it matter if I like Helen Shapiro and Tom Jones? I do.

I never ever even hinted that oldies were bad?

Northernsoul is a broad church.

I can appreciate all music, I have an open mind. I love oldies but my point is that there is a heck of a lot of people who won't listen or dance to any thing other than the Wigan sounds.

I don't walk off the dance floor shaking my head in disgust every time I hear Frank Wilson but at the same time I don't want to be at a venue where a copy of Frank Wilson is the depth of the record box.

I am not a one type of music fan and to assume that just because I can post about other flavors of our music sells me very short.

I am not an anti sixties boy, I am a good music boy.

I have my Blackpool Weekender ticket booked and paid for and I will have a great time listening to the classics, I will also be at Bidds on the 12^th and then Maxims on the 21^st of November and every nighter in-between that offers me a chance to hear some thing good and some thing rare or new.

My original and first post stands and I have heard nothing yet to convince me that there are a lot of people who can not appreciate Northernsoul music properly, you can like Frank Wilson, Helen Shapiro and Tom Jones and Newies................... Honest.

October 1, 2009

Christ all mighty, I have never seen so many people trying so hard to score points and debating nothing to do with the actual points, particularly, as usual Mr Chorley Soul.

The main point to me, ignoring Imbers ramblings as I always do, Cliff has made is the "scene" is far too one dimensional now, uptempo 60's only and it was never like this back in the day, and in effect this is killing both the attraction of the scene and the quality of music played. Yes he may have got dragged into a few rambling asides, (normally based on Chorley*** telling us how wonderful he is and how many different things he has done, what religion we should follow and his opinions should be treated as fact, despite not actually backing it up with experiences), but that is still the main point for me.

And whatever anyone else wants to say, that is a fact, I was a regular on this scene from 78-95ish, and other than 60's fascism (off which I was a card paying member on and off, but that is a different thread) having a few splurges of power during this period that was how it is, how do I know, I was there. Therefore its fact. I do not think Cliff is advocating playing Bootsy Collins, John Coltrane or Idris Muhammad (pun intended), and he is certainly not advocating Warehouse style music lists (Queen anyone!) but records that fit into this wide banner of Northern Soul, and it is a wide banner based on records actually accepted, again surely there can be no argument to that. It only became so one dimensional mid 90's when the hordes started charging backwards towards the decks, memories of their long gone youth suddenly fresh, and the scene splintered, if not shattered, this is why I still think the Nostalgia scne has had a detrimental effect on my scene, however I wasn't really there then as it was of least interest to me due to the quality going by then and was at home with my music (well also in Houseland but that is also another story)

I am always amazed at when people like Cliff argue for some quality of music they are shouted down as "Soul Police" or similar insults, why, are people offended that people actually care about the music rather than just the scene, is the easy way forward really the only way??

Second point that Chorley is making, in there somewhere, is he really doesn't care anymore, he just wants to go out and get pis**ed and relive the early Hampstead days, good on you mate but its nothing to do with the scene Cliff is talking about so why don't you stick to what you know, because you don't care about the progression within the scene why shouldn't others. Northern has never been just about a good night out, the fact we could have damned good night out with great music and great people was because people cared enough to put progressive stuff on and stick their neck out. The fact you don't care anymore makes your views irrelevant.

Now James, you are just trying to point score against Cliff, still smarting from the time you took a virtual beating off him, please, you should be bigger than that, you are just living down to an awful lot of peoples expectations off you, I thought better of you, I really did. A few specific points,

(a) Cliff didn't say he didn't enjoy others enjoying it, you are putting words in his mouth and trying to score points, I assume you have your short trousers on. Exactly what scene are you talking about when you describe this unit, not Stoke by any chance is it.......

( The scene you ridicule in your response , the young people not knowing anything about anything and moving on, is exactly the one you championed so many times before, the one you said was the future of NS, one that most resembles your Friday night in Chelmsford I believe, and the very one we had our first spat over as I told you were talking bolloks, the one championed by you and your mate from Portishead or whoever that I said wouldn't be here in 5 years (50% right so far, had higher hopes for you, but if your principles go as easy as they seem to be well.....). So why the change now, when some of us are maybe thinking you had something in your original views, are you a Salvadors all night man now, rather than just to get the party started. Do you now champion the traditional route you have fought so hard against up to now. Why would that be James, lets take a guess, Stoke again maybe......

Why don't you go back to doing what you do best rather than just trying to even scores on here lad?

Final questions, as you tax payers could be paying me to type this,

Barney and Casper (now gone interestingly) where did you actually go between 1981 and 1995, I am interested in which venues suited your narrow tastes in these days? Actually Chorley, I would be interested also in where you went then. It would make far easier to understand your points if I understood at what point you changed.

And my final word and summary, there is no scene, it's a lot of ego driven local scenes and in many ways the only one that comes together is the progressive one, although that seems to be even less these days, too many dj's not enough music driven fans that enjoy the scene rather than vice versa, where is the new Keb and Guy to lead the next Soul Revolution (a name James I am assuming you will be changing given your responses above), in many ways the Nostalgia scene is just an irrelevant diversion, although a divisive one I still think, personally I don't care what decade that music comes from as long as its fresh and exciting, or maybe it is all over.........or maybe not, Butch's funky spots, anyone want to discuss?

*** Apologies to all other members with Chorley in their name, used the abbreviated term to save my typing fingers, but maybe to avoid any confusion you should let ChorleySoul be the only one to have this name, sve you embarrasment when people think you are him

Yeah and in your world pal, you come on here and blatantly insult me and rubbish me and then you expect me to sit here like a fooking schoolboy and respond to your frigging interrogation like I'm some kind of geek? And all because of what? Somebody disagrees with you and so out come the insults and the cheap shots. Oh and JAMES is not wagging his tail correctly and so he gets it too. Dream on mate. I've never imposed my views on anybody, all I've done is try and explain mine at length and qualify them. I've also appealed for a good spirit on several ocasions during this thread but if you just want to give it a large one, find me in person and insult me. I'm not a keyboard warrior.

Talk about dogmatic and confrontational. You mate are what is wrong with this scene today, you are so far up your own arse and think your on some kind of ordained mission to educate people. Seen and heard it all before mate. Pathetic.

Edited October 1, 2009 by chorleysoul

October 1, 2009

Oi Jocko, what have I done to warrant that little dig?

Never offended you mate, never even met you before so why take a swipe at me?

You start an essay with a cheap shot at me, why?

Can we all please refrain from being personal or we will end up having this thread closed, Jocko make your point mate but please don't get personal, PM me if you have a gripe, I am big enough and ugly enough to take it but doing it on a thread and hiding it at the top of your passage is the mark of a coward!

Yeah, well said mate. I thought this was being debated in a reasonbale enough way but he is taking it to another level. I dont give a flying shite about that if it's what he wants but it will probably spoil a good thread so better to close it now perhaps, before it gets out of hand.

October 1, 2009

Less of the dog talk.

Wrongcrowd · October 1, 2009

Talk about dogmatic and confrontational. You mate are what is wrong with this scene today, you are so far up your own arse and think your on some kind of ordained mission to educate people. Seen and heard it all before mate. Pathetic.

I've no idea where you're coming from with "a mission to educate".........the agenda here Chorleysoul, I believe is whether a more positive and honest look at ourselves and our view / involvement is to be happy with what we've had, and carry on playing the same old, tired tunes or stick with the original ethos and continue to find/re-discover fresher music..60's, 70's...2009. You've made your position (kind of) clear, though it did take some reading and filtering to get your gist, and if you're happy with a revivalist scene, good luck to you.

Others of us that haven't grown tired of fresh music have a different opinon, so we'll keep moving on if that's ok with you.

"Seen and heard it all before"..........exactly my point, but it did take you some time to grasp the thread.

I look forward to meeting you at some point....we might even agree on something, but in the meantime I'm signing off, and heading for the media threads where fresh music is a way of life......ta ta...

Modernsoulsucks · October 1, 2009

"there are a lot of people who can not appreciate Northernsoul music properly"

I just think everyone appreciates it differently.

ROD

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