There Are Not Many Black People On The Scene?

[BlueWail]

Probably black folk were mainly into west indian music (from their parents)whilst (some) honkeys were into american music due to not much going on in blighty

Britain miles away from america

The west indies miles away from america

Neither place has any connection with america

Edited October 30, 2009 by Darren

[dthedrug]

An excellant and very true observation. and what I deliberatly avioded was the late 7ts with OI! & the MOD revival, once again I hate it when some one say I was a mod in the early 8ts?? rather than the concept of the style and culture of the Mods had a impact on me that i enjoyed the revival years, And what about the Black kids now in there late 5ts all my mates who were black were Jamacan born and they to had a hatred for issues that did not fit into there life style and still does< I have never met a Jamacan man who like African blacks?? DAVE K

[Guest]

Probably black folk were mainly into west indian music (from their parents)whilst (some) honkeys were into american music due to not much going on in blighty

Britain miles away from america

The west indies miles away from america

Neither place has any conection with america

Thats with most black immigrants origionating from the west indies so they had as much americana in them as some one in britain

What are honkey's ?

[BlueWail]

What are honkey's ?

Snowdrops,ghosts take your pick

Im street

Edited October 30, 2009 by Darren

[Guest]

Snowdrops,ghosts take your pick

Im street

I thought so,not a nice expression is it ?

Honky, Honkey or Honkie is a predominantly American derogatory racial slur for white people.

The exact origins of Honky are unknown; the Oxford English Dictionary speculates that it was a variant of hunky, which was a variant of Bohunk, a slur for Bohemian-Hungarian immigrants; the first recorded use of honky dates to 1946.[1] Honky might also derive from the term "honk nopp" which, in the west African language Wolof means, literally, red-eared person or white person. The term may have originated with Wolof-speaking slaves brought to the U.S.[2].

[BlueWail]

yeah your right

Honkey is a horrible word i feel violated by using it

What pc thingy can i report myself to?

[Drew3]

Isn't the answer to the origional question much simpler than some of the posts so far?

As we all know, because we experienced it at the time, the Soul/NS scene came about because a small number of white working class youths in this country, in the 60s and 70s, liked soul music.

Black people, as our peers, were in a massive minority at the time so therefore any black youths of the time who were into soul/NS would be in a minority if they, like us, had stayed with this music/scene to this day. Simple maths would indicate why there is not an equal representation on the scene today.

Anything else just seems to be 'over egging the pudding' IMHO of course!

KTF.

Drew.

[Guest]

yeah your right

Honkey is a horrible word i feel violated by using it

What pc thingy can i report myself to?

Whatever

[BlueWail]

More important ken is the views of some of our soul brethern

I was at a weekender about ten years ago and was surprised by the quote

Its surprising you dont get many ni++ers here with it alll being ni++er music that they play here

This was off a bloke who was showing me his "soul patches" dating back to the wheel

Edited October 30, 2009 by Darren

[Guest]

More important ken is the views of some of our soul brethern

I was at a weekender about ten years ago and was surprised by the quote

Its surprising you dont get many ni++ers here with it alll being ni++er music that they play here

This was off a bloke who was showing me his "soul patches" dating back to the wheel

Two wrongs dont make a right in future it should be ho**eys

[BlueWail]

wheres the two wrongs?

Some racist soulies

and

My huggie bear street talk

no comparison la

[burt weedon]

I M CUMMIN ART D CUBBOARD;;;IM BLACK.

BUUURT! WO U SAY.....X

[burt weedon]

I M CUMMIN ART D CUBBOARD;;;IM BLACK.

BUUURT! WO U SAY.....X

yo burt.. me too DUDE.

IZ ME BURT.......NOZMO KING,,i can dance, n i like spinningg....x

[Guest Paul]

Interesting thread...

The most obvious explanation is simply that there was a much lower proportion of black people in most UK towns in the 1970s, especially in the north.

But I reckon there are at least another six factors which might help to explain the situation.

From my own experience I've generally found that most black people (especially men) usually prefer contemporary music rather than retro music, slower tempos rather than fast tempos, syncopated rhythms rather than simple 4/4 rhythms, funk and reggae rather than traditional soul.

In addition, I reckon that many black men find some 'northern soul' tracks to be a bit lacking in "blackness" and "masculinity".

So, apart from being too old fashioned, too fast and too rhythmically simple, some 'northern soul' tracks may also be a bit too "poppy" or "girlie" for some people.

Personally, I enjoy all kinds of soul and reggae, new and old, but most of my black friends aren't into 'northern soul'. I've also found that none of my Asian friends have ever been into 'northern soul', although some are into house, garage and contemporary R&B.

And I certainly don't see it as a black/white racial thing, it's culture and trends more than anything.

As for the comments made by Jazzie B, I reckon he doesn't understand and hasn't exerienced 'northern soul' so I don't know why he was asked to comment. He just turned it into a race issue which was a very cheap and damaging thing to do.

Best regards,

Paul

Edited October 30, 2009 by Paul

[Guest ZA9]

This is really interesting, reading all of this from across ocean in the U.S. and being an African American. It's probably the explanation that because Black people in the U.K. have roots in Caribbean and African countries they listen to music from those countries moreso than U.S. African American soul. I just got into Northern Soul a few years ago and was amazed at all the music I hadn't heard growing up in the U.S. even though it was around when I was growing up, because it didn't get the airplay on radio stations here, not even on the Black owned or Black oriented stations because the artists hadn't cracked the "Top Ten" soul and R & B charts. A few managed to make it, like Fred Hughes' "Ooo Wee Baby," but even he had records that hadn't been heard over here but were enormously popular with y'all Northern Soulies because they were played constantly in the Northern Soul clubs. I love it, and I'm glad Northern Soul is keeping the music and its artists alive, and that it has literally given back some of the artists' careers, like the late Edwin Starr who moved to England and got to perform before audiences again and know how much he was appreciated before he died. Or Toby Lark. Or Sandra Phillips (although I think her best cut is "Some Mother's Son", not the other one which I can't think of the name of that's way more popular in Northern Soul clubs).

Over here, '60s and '70s soul of the kind Northern Soulies love is popular with African Americans who are middle aged and were young in the '60s and '70s, and there are a few clubs for that age demographic which play only soul "oldies" for people to dance to. A lot of rappers have sampled '60s and '70s soul. This is a long answer to a short question! By the way, I loved Soul II Soul and Caron Wheeler is amazing! If you're reading this Caron, I'm glad you're still out there and performing!

[Guest Paul]

...It's probably the explanation that because Black people in the U.K. have roots in Caribbean and African countries they listen to music from those countries moreso than U.S. African American soul...

That's a very significant point.

[nubes]

This is really interesting, reading all of this from across ocean in the U.S. and being an African American. It's probably the explanation that because Black people in the U.K. have roots in Caribbean and African countries they listen to music from those countries moreso than U.S. African American soul. I just got into Northern Soul a few years ago and was amazed at all the music I hadn't heard growing up in the U.S. even though it was around when I was growing up, because it didn't get the airplay on radio stations here, not even on the Black owned or Black oriented stations because the artists hadn't cracked the "Top Ten" soul and R & B charts. A few managed to make it, like Fred Hughes' "Ooo Wee Baby," but even he had records that hadn't been heard over here but were enormously popular with y'all Northern Soulies because they were played constantly in the Northern Soul clubs. I love it, and I'm glad Northern Soul is keeping the music and its artists alive, and that it has literally given back some of the artists' careers, like the late Edwin Starr who moved to England and got to perform before audiences again and know how much he was appreciated before he died. Or Toby Lark. Or Sandra Phillips (although I think her best cut is "Some Mother's Son", not the other one which I can't think of the name of that's way more popular in Northern Soul clubs).

Over here, '60s and '70s soul of the kind Northern Soulies love is popular with African Americans who are middle aged and were young in the '60s and '70s, and there are a few clubs for that age demographic which play only soul "oldies" for people to dance to. A lot of rappers have sampled '60s and '70s soul. This is a long answer to a short question! By the way, I loved Soul II Soul and Caron Wheeler is amazing! If you're reading this Caron, I'm glad you're still out there and performing!

Tottally agree with ya babes...and very interesting topic...Del...xxxx

[Guest Scarborosoul]

My Closest friend after I moved to Scarboroughwas a guy called Mike Hussey. Im sure most of the older York lads and anyone from Scarborough will know him.

Its not that hes famous, hes 6'4" and black loves NS but now never goes to any "PARTIES " I took exception to Jazzy Bs remarks on Soul Brittania that OUR scene is racist. FFS we all love BLACK music WHY WHY WHY would we be racist?? it makes no sence whatsoever. People on the scene such as Mick, Vernon,Carl I am sure would beg to differ with Jazzy B.

Infact I was talking to Vernon at Crewe when it was Steam and he was not over pleased about it. Still I suppose its normal form for misinformed people

Jazzy B not Vernon

Rick

Edited October 30, 2009 by Scarborosoul

[stomper45]

Surely the lack of Carlsberg Special Brew being served, and a preference for weed over pills have some significance from back in the day

[ImberBoy]

This is really interesting, reading all of this from across ocean in the U.S. and being an African American. It's probably the explanation that because Black people in the U.K. have roots in Caribbean and African countries they listen to music from those countries moreso than U.S. African American soul. I just got into Northern Soul a few years ago and was amazed at all the music I hadn't heard growing up in the U.S. even though it was around when I was growing up, because it didn't get the airplay on radio stations here, not even on the Black owned or Black oriented stations because the artists hadn't cracked the "Top Ten" soul and R & B charts. A few managed to make it, like Fred Hughes' "Ooo Wee Baby," but even he had records that hadn't been heard over here but were enormously popular with y'all Northern Soulies because they were played constantly in the Northern Soul clubs. I love it, and I'm glad Northern Soul is keeping the music and its artists alive, and that it has literally given back some of the artists' careers, like the late Edwin Starr who moved to England and got to perform before audiences again and know how much he was appreciated before he died. Or Toby Lark. Or Sandra Phillips (although I think her best cut is "Some Mother's Son", not the other one which I can't think of the name of that's way more popular in Northern Soul clubs).

Over here, '60s and '70s soul of the kind Northern Soulies love is popular with African Americans who are middle aged and were young in the '60s and '70s, and there are a few clubs for that age demographic which play only soul "oldies" for people to dance to. A lot of rappers have sampled '60s and '70s soul. This is a long answer to a short question! By the way, I loved Soul II Soul and Caron Wheeler is amazing! If you're reading this Caron, I'm glad you're still out there and performing!

This sounds like a logical reason.

I wonder why the majority of British skinheads adopted Jamaican music as theirs with no connection geographically or cultural?

[Guest bazabod_downunder]

Nope

KTF

Baz

Does anyone actually give a fuck what Jazzy B thinks?

Celebrate your mind...free your soul....

[barney]

I wonder why the majority of British skinheads adopted Jamaican music as theirs with no connection geographically or cultural?

[Guest bazabod_downunder]

Interesting & 'obviously' a hot area of discussion you've started here Imberboy, it's been already stated, but the majority of people of colour that came to the Uk in the 50's/60's & 70's were of West Indian stock, they already had there own identities, culture & own thing going on, along with a genuine belief or personal experience of general inherent racism that existed (& still does in some quarters) why 'would' they want to try to 'intergrate' with white music culture even if it was 'Black American' soul music based.

One of my best mates back in the UK is second generation from Barbados & he likes heavy rock! the other point is I have never looked at him & thought about his colour, I'm sure in reality it's true for many of us that maybe is another reason for not 'noticing' the lack of or suposed lack of black people at Northern Soul events, they're just fellow soulies.

If you were to narrow it down to percentages I'm sure it'd even out, how many of the white population of the Uk could be counted as Northern Soul devotees?....& black people make up approximatley 2% of the population?

What I've always loved about this scene is that it crosses boundaries, walks of life, colour creed & religion.

As for Jazzy B, as said in my earlier reply I don't give a rats arse about what he said, just based on what he said whether he was white, black, purple or green, it was aload of old tosh & borderline demeaning.

KTF

Baz

There are not many black people on the scene?

Why?

[dthedrug]

Hi just a quick response to the remark"Skinheads like Reggae music":- in 68/71 the majority of youth that had adopted the fashion of the 68 Bovver Boy also listened to Reggae and that's about it< as it is my clear recolection that the small group of origanal Boot Boys were the ones who introduced Reggea to there mates and not the other way round with the exception of those who lived in areas of South & West London BRIXTON SHEPARDS BUSH. at the age of 17 my first love of music was Reggea at the time I was totaly unaware that Reggae was the new style of music to come from Jamaca, and like most people of my age at the time had only hered a handful of Jamacan Tunes mainly Prince Buster Desmond Decker 007 and a couple of instrementals Namely "Guns of Navarone" & "Phoenix City" these tunes were typacal club sounds and even at the Twisted Wheel club they played a few more ska records in line with the Flamingo policy also they played white pop music with the right sound, so records like the Gaylads "lady in the Red dress" Frankie Vali "you ready now" were very popular. But Reggea if played at all in a club would have been any of records on the Straighton UP/ Tighton UPs 1 2 & 3 or the Red Red Wine LP in fact if you ask most people to name 25 reggea tunes who were around in 69 it would be very hard thing to do? My recollection is that out of all the Poeple who addopted the "Skinhead Style" in Hartfordshire from towns like Hemal Hatfield Welgar Stevenage and so on 10 people that I can put a name to would enter a Blues Club they proberly did not know about them or lacked the bottle to Knock at the Door (I recomend you to listen to the opening of the Spooners Crowd 45) (a) To get in you had to be known by the sound man or house owner. (b)you had to be trusted in the fact that the whole set up was illegal, © you were not racist it was there House Party and respect was given to and recieved from.

Reggae was a new sound and as such in 68/9 depending on location and sound man you proberly were hearing differant tunes, this became obvious to me when I first met Jim Silles 25 years ago and records that I called classics were Differant from his selection so my Winston Shan MATILDA on Bullet was a top ten tune for me Jim put it way down his list and remembers the "B" side as the Tune? and it goes on the big differance between me and Jim was very clear as our recollection show He lived in Olimpia as a Kid I had lived in Approve Schools as such his contact with black kids was normal to me I had to learn Quick as such my inherrited racist views at time got in the way of things but quite clearly both our latant teenage years was based on equality and charictore and not Stero typeing but my termanolagy had a lot to be desired as i commenly referd to my black mates as SPADES and this is highlited when entering North West London in 69 with its gangs from Harlsdon and Willsdon calling them selves the WHITES and RUDE BOYS, and even the gaul to use the the word Mafia as the Hendon Boot Boys did,

In summary the best conparrasion I can Make is with the young kids of to-day HOODIES once again the origanal Hoodies were quite simular to the Boot boys of the 6ts and just as Violant it is noticeable to me that knife crime has risen over the years and the victem is nearly always potrayed as a good boy, but I bet for some daft reason he adopted the Hoodie Style and as such he was singled out in the same way as BootBoys would attack someone for nothing The Golden Rule of Gang Mentality is to cause fear it is the best way of making sure you are not the victem (if you dress or ware the uniform with out acceptance you will be targetted) this rule is as old as the hills and for some youth like myself in the day the Slogan of "DONT TOUCH ME" was so true, and the Reggea issue is interesting to me as it was just for me and it was new, And explaines a lot about the way the Norther soul scene developed it could be to-day a very differant scene if more black people had moved to the other Cities but as we know these places had a more historical link to India and Pakistan and the Cotton trade and of course this is were most racist remarks are based as Black people from Jamaca speak english even if it is a first hard to understand "De Shop pon de corner" "Rass Clot & Pussy Clot" were words that we tresured at the time especialy when being hastled by the Old Bill ti rass. I forgot to mention that quite a few Black lads from Wolves went to the Casino and played on the very fact that they were Black and Hard some of you may of ment them in the Bog???

By the way Mick Smith Hates Reggae and I love it? the age differance between us is 2 years hence he looks down on this period and he is MOD were I am Trouble??

DAVE KIL

[Barry]

You should post more often mate.

[Pete S]

This sounds like a logical reason.

I wonder why the majority of British skinheads adopted Jamaican music as theirs with no connection geographically or cultural?

Cos it was easy to dance to!

[Pete S]

Hi just a quick response to the remark"Skinheads like Reggae music":- in 68/71 the majority of youth that had adopted the fashion of the 68 Bovver Boy also listened to Reggae and that's about it< as it is my clear recolection that the small group of origanal Boot Boys were the ones who introduced Reggea to there mates and not the other way round with the exception of those who lived in areas of South & West London BRIXTON SHEPARDS BUSH. at the age of 17 my first love of music was Reggea at the time I was totaly unaware that Reggae was the new style of music to come from Jamaca, and like most people of my age at the time had only hered a handful of Jamacan Tunes mainly Prince Buster Desmond Decker 007 and a couple of instrementals Namely "Guns of Navarone" & "Phoenix City" these tunes were typacal club sounds and even at the Twisted Wheel club they played a few more ska records in line with the Flamingo policy also they played white pop music with the right sound, so records like the Gaylads "lady in the Red dress" Frankie Vali "you ready now" were very popular. But Reggea if played at all in a club would have been any of records on the Straighton UP/ Tighton UPs 1 2 & 3 or the Red Red Wine LP in fact if you ask most people to name 25 reggea tunes who were around in 69 it would be very hard thing to do? My recollection is that out of all the Poeple who addopted the "Skinhead Style" in Hartfordshire from towns like Hemal Hatfield Welgar Stevenage and so on 10 people that I can put a name to would enter a Blues Club they proberly did not know about them or lacked the bottle to Knock at the Door (I recomend you to listen to the opening of the Spooners Crowd 45) (a) To get in you had to be known by the sound man or house owner. (b)you had to be trusted in the fact that the whole set up was illegal, © you were not racist it was there House Party and respect was given to and recieved from.

Reggae was a new sound and as such in 68/9 depending on location and sound man you proberly were hearing differant tunes, this became obvious to me when I first met Jim Silles 25 years ago and records that I called classics were Differant from his selection so my Winston Shan MATILDA on Bullet was a top ten tune for me Jim put it way down his list and remembers the "B" side as the Tune? and it goes on the big differance between me and Jim was very clear as our recollection show He lived in Olimpia as a Kid I had lived in Approve Schools as such his contact with black kids was normal to me I had to learn Quick as such my inherrited racist views at time got in the way of things but quite clearly both our latant teenage years was based on equality and charictore and not Stero typeing but my termanolagy had a lot to be desired as i commenly referd to my black mates as SPADES and this is highlited when entering North West London in 69 with its gangs from Harlsdon and Willsdon calling them selves the WHITES and RUDE BOYS, and even the gaul to use the the word Mafia as the Hendon Boot Boys did,

In summary the best conparrasion I can Make is with the young kids of to-day HOODIES once again the origanal Hoodies were quite simular to the Boot boys of the 6ts and just as Violant it is noticeable to me that knife crime has risen over the years and the victem is nearly always potrayed as a good boy, but I bet for some daft reason he adopted the Hoodie Style and as such he was singled out in the same way as BootBoys would attack someone for nothing The Golden Rule of Gang Mentality is to cause fear it is the best way of making sure you are not the victem (if you dress or ware the uniform with out acceptance you will be targetted) this rule is as old as the hills and for some youth like myself in the day the Slogan of "DONT TOUCH ME" was so true, and the Reggea issue is interesting to me as it was just for me and it was new, And explaines a lot about the way the Norther soul scene developed it could be to-day a very differant scene if more black people had moved to the other Cities but as we know these places had a more historical link to India and Pakistan and the Cotton trade and of course this is were most racist remarks are based as Black people from Jamaca speak english even if it is a first hard to understand "De Shop pon de corner" "Rass Clot & Pussy Clot" were words that we tresured at the time especialy when being hastled by the Old Bill ti rass. I forgot to mention that quite a few Black lads from Wolves went to the Casino and played on the very fact that they were Black and Hard some of you may of ment them in the Bog???

By the way Mick Smith Hates Reggae and I love it? the age differance between us is 2 years hence he looks down on this period and he is MOD were I am Trouble??

DAVE KIL

Dave you really should write a book, I've told you before, there are very few people with such vivid memories of what happened in those days

[Guest ZA9]

Tottally agree with ya babes...and very interesting topic...Del...xxxx

Hey Del, glad to see you're still out there and thriving!

How's the family? My daughter and I are okay -- she's 12 and is trying to act in a way she thinks is "older," claims to have a boyfriend, is wearing braces on her teeth and adopts poses she thinks are "sexy"!

Take care,

Za9

P.S. One of her favorite songs out now is by "old school" artist Charlie Wilson, formerly of The Gap Band, "There Goes My Lady." She sings it in the car all the time, and it's on her MP3 player!

[Guest]

If I remember right, Trevor Nelson expressed 'concern' (my word not his) on going to a Soul do in Lancs based on his a) Southerness, b ) 60's Soul not quite being his bag and c) being a black face in an almost exclusively white clientele. I think he found the experience a positive one though. Have the programme on video somewhere.

Yeah I remember this he said something like not having a good vibe from being there or something like that. I think he was with there with Keb Darge on the programme.

[barney]

kinnell if you think thats bad try being a yorkshire lad at some of these backwater lancs do,s

[Maark]

Yes, Keb was expounding his theory that the white working class in Britain with their shite lives could identify with black American music performed by people with shite lives. Trevor Nelson concluded that these old white guys from the north certainly had got soul. I'll have to dig the vid out!

Edited October 30, 2009 by Maark

[viphitman]

Jesus, I would be shocked at all those old fcks who can dance but look fat But if you go somewhere you don't know nothing about, it always feels strange in the beginning. I went to some gararage clubs with a mate and I felt the same. Anyway, the way he and everyone involved talks about Northern Soul makes this a top documentary if not one of the best. I think he would have loved to be there at the time the way he compared it with the garage scene at the end!!!!! If I were a youngster I would friggin give it a try or at least find out more about it!!!!

Check it out!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHNxqRxW1nc

[dthedrug]

Hi all you Black & White Luvvers***This is entry #3 on the reason there are no Blax on the Soul Scene??

Well surprise surprise they went away and made there own scene and there own music??? but how did that come about and why are they on mass believe that Northern Soul scene was not for them:-

Are we all white racists? to be truthful I think not, but the true spirit of the rare soul scene was lost in those early days 71 to 75 and by then we all had become masonic about the scene. to understand my point you have to look no further than who is playing the 45s to give you a clue they are not black? and no matter how much we covered the uptempo music of the USA and white UK covers of the style, we left our inspiration of black music out of the scene, basically because it was run by dedicated white people who could pass a honers degree in the subject with the great wealth of factual knowledge and elitist ideals they got to the point that the 45s were accredited to them not the artist that was for all the punters to work out, self centred with CUPs to the extent that they did not acknowledge the real soul fan who sold them the record in the first place??**This insanity was a complete opposite to what the Black youth wanted and highlights the logic of why Ian Levine & Colin Curtis went down the road they did taking the hallowed Blackpool Mecca with Him. Traditionally in the States and very much so in Jamaica the DJ represented a high position in the community, and in particular through the sound mans 45s he was telling the community the NEWS ( Jamaica is a poor third world Country) a quick run down the records of the time the topics are all in 4 to 5 story lines SEX Poverty and Gambling , Drugs as most Jamaican music is controlled by the Producers not the artist, you can almost tell how much Bush Weed they smoked that day as with Ska which follows the rhythm of Rum Hence Rum rhythm Reggae was inspired by cannabis and hence the early sounds that introduced the Reggae Dance were sexual or US hits to Dance the Reggae suited the white working class Bovver boy as it was more manly to dance in the Jamaican Style (basically homophobic tendency here)The Reggae was more about the rhythm of the Hips not the feet suggestive and flirtatious, My first attempts to dance the Reggae were like so many white boys not quite the same as our black mates, the Jamaican way is almost like trying to F**K this movement was named as "welding" and if the Girl accepted the Dance the to welded together? meanwhile my attempts looked more like I was taking the p**s I can assure you I was not, however the white way to dance to the Reggae tried to copy the authentic style however a emphasis was to introduce the knees up mother brown element to the dance Fists up in a boxers style and footwork that consisted of showing all your mates you had a pair of cherry red Air Ware, so the daisy root dance was adopted??

Back in the rare soul Clubs the lack of Black people to show what the dance moves were eg:- the Duck Jerk Dog Pony and so on which is the original purpose of the tune, was given over to talented individuals who were proberly s**t hot at PE in School? and by 73 the spins side walking and hand clapping was a thrill to watch, personally I think the first 6 Wigan All Nighters were the epitome of Northern Soul Dancing as the place was still very much an underground scene and with many Torch goers not attending as they had grown up and got hitch in the Summer of 73 and when you are young March to September is a long time without the Torch on your doorstep (only the boys from the South really travelled to events?)

and to conclude this part I put it to you that the lack of understanding of not inviting a black DJ was always going to be a hard one to prove that it really had no intentional racist aspect at all?

The last Point is that Black music as I said carries a Message and is by nature a throw away commodity (I am talking from a DJ point off view) who reads yesterdays papers? No way was a norther Soul DJ gong to stop playing a sound until it was or reached a high, and the bootleg cane out? how many of us got "Sweet Sherry" with "Lets have a love in Inst)

I feel in part the early stalwarts of the Wheel Mecca Junction & Torch Never in the slightest thought 40yrs on we would still love rare soul and in my case Reggae and can only apologies to the people who discovered Northern Soul after 1975 we forgot to ask our black brothers and sisters to come along, but hey there is a twist is it around 74 that black people in the UK had received the the Gunga Message and started to really slam home the message of liberation and emancipation and put down the old faith to adopt the Rasta Faith I & I RASTAFARI?./**PS Don't you just want to kick white blokes with locks right good and hard in the Knackers? I do and will always will?

These are my reflective opinions of my teenage years and the personal involvement I had in the Youth Sub-Cultures of the time, as such I would like to here your account of the BLACK & WHITE situation?

DAVE (to Rass Man) KIL

[Guest highlander]

No sorry I disagree with that summing up of Jazzy's dismissal of the Northern scene.

I don't see any slant on Simon's question (nice to be supporting you on that one mate!), it is a fair enough general enquiry and one which my Black partner asked me pretty quickly after I'd introduced her to the scene. There are indeed perfectly natural explanantions for this phenomenon and I'll add a contribution on those aspects shortly.

However, when it comes to Jazzy, I'm afraid I believe fully that those comments were meant maliciously and emanated as the result of an enormous ego being faced with trying to comment on something he actually knew very little about. Jazzy likes to be seen as 'THE man' bar none as regards the UK Soul scene and for him to have to try and speak articulately on a subject that was beyond his scope, was annoying and frustrating. He therefore resulted to spite and contempt. His claim that he was ever at 'those Northern Soul PARTIES' was absolute crap. 'Parties, I ask you!?' It was a lie as simple as that. He had very little or even NO experience of the Northern Scene and he could have simply said that and the question would have passed over without any affect. Amongst the lads I've been with over the years, there has always been a valued and well respected black contingenent and any of them would readily confirm how welcome they've always felt on the scene.

But Jazzy admit he was totally ignorant of a hugely influential part of British Soul's history?

Not Jazzy's style. Because he had no knowledge he responded negatively and spouted comments which were not only insulting to thousands of passionate Black Music fans, but had they been attributed to a white man, say talking about the Drum and Bass or ragga scene, would have drawn serious condemnation on racial basis. It does not make him a serial racist as implied here but it does make him guilty of comments made in a racist manner. It is important too that this event is covered every time it raises it's head because Jazzy is a big influence on a lot of people. But whatever his status, he owes the Northern Soul Scene a public apology which is long overdue. To imply that people like Ady Croadsell, Andy Rix and others who have worked so hard to ensure relatively unknown Black Artists get at least a semblance of creative acknowledgement for their work - are part of an intrinsically 'Racist' scene is disgraceful and beggars belief.

It is particularly annoying and insulting to people like me with children from mixed heritage groups and who have spent large periods of my adult life fighting the BNP and other Racist groups, both intellectually and physically whilst maintaining a 30 year plus passion for what I believe to be the greatest pop music (in the broadest sense) ever recorded. Never seen Jazzy out on the stump against the Fascists either.

Jazzy B is an interesting character. Caron Wheeler, the true voice of SOUL2SOUL made a very illuminating comment once. 'I've never even seen Jazzy playing a musical instrument, in fact I dont think he can play one'.

In which case, it's pretty amazing the way he is credited with constructing the music, behind the group is it not? I think that was Karen's way of stating don't believe all you hear but it was far as she was prepared to go.

An absolutely perfect demolition of the personality of such an arrogant man . brilliant!! wish i could have written that

[The Tempest]

Off topic, or apt?

Bloody hell that takes me back !!!!

[Naughty Boy]

Probably black folk were mainly into west indian music (from their parents)whilst (some) honkeys were into american music due to not much going on in blighty

Britain miles away from america

The west indies miles away from america

Neither place has any connection with america

are you sure

[Guest ZA9]

Hi all you Black & White Luvvers***This is entry #3 on the reason there are no Blax on the Soul Scene??

Well surprise surprise they went away and made there own scene and there own music??? but how did that come about and why are they on mass believe that Northern Soul scene was not for them:-

Are we all white racists? to be truthful I think not, but the true spirit of the rare soul scene was lost in those early days 71 to 75 and by then we all had become masonic about the scene. to understand my point you have to look no further than who is playing the 45s to give you a clue they are not black? and no matter how much we covered the uptempo music of the USA and white UK covers of the style, we left our inspiration of black music out of the scene, basically because it was run by dedicated white people who could pass a honers degree in the subject with the great wealth of factual knowledge and elitist ideals they got to the point that the 45s were accredited to them not the artist that was for all the punters to work out, self centred with CUPs to the extent that they did not acknowledge the real soul fan who sold them the record in the first place??**This insanity was a complete opposite to what the Black youth wanted and highlights the logic of why Ian Levine & Colin Curtis went down the road they did taking the hallowed Blackpool Mecca with Him. Traditionally in the States and very much so in Jamaica the DJ represented a high position in the community, and in particular through the sound mans 45s he was telling the community the NEWS ( Jamaica is a poor third world Country) a quick run down the records of the time the topics are all in 4 to 5 story lines SEX Poverty and Gambling , Drugs as most Jamaican music is controlled by the Producers not the artist, you can almost tell how much Bush Weed they smoked that day as with Ska which follows the rhythm of Rum Hence Rum rhythm Reggae was inspired by cannabis and hence the early sounds that introduced the Reggae Dance were sexual or US hits to Dance the Reggae suited the white working class Bovver boy as it was more manly to dance in the Jamaican Style (basically homophobic tendency here)The Reggae was more about the rhythm of the Hips not the feet suggestive and flirtatious, My first attempts to dance the Reggae were like so many white boys not quite the same as our black mates, the Jamaican way is almost like trying to F**K this movement was named as "welding" and if the Girl accepted the Dance the to welded together? meanwhile my attempts looked more like I was taking the p**s I can assure you I was not, however the white way to dance to the Reggae tried to copy the authentic style however a emphasis was to introduce the knees up mother brown element to the dance Fists up in a boxers style and footwork that consisted of showing all your mates you had a pair of cherry red Air Ware, so the daisy root dance was adopted??

Back in the rare soul Clubs the lack of Black people to show what the dance moves were eg:- the Duck Jerk Dog Pony and so on which is the original purpose of the tune, was given over to talented individuals who were proberly s**t hot at PE in School? and by 73 the spins side walking and hand clapping was a thrill to watch, personally I think the first 6 Wigan All Nighters were the epitome of Northern Soul Dancing as the place was still very much an underground scene and with many Torch goers not attending as they had grown up and got hitch in the Summer of 73 and when you are young March to September is a long time without the Torch on your doorstep (only the boys from the South really travelled to events?)

and to conclude this part I put it to you that the lack of understanding of not inviting a black DJ was always going to be a hard one to prove that it really had no intentional racist aspect at all?

The last Point is that Black music as I said carries a Message and is by nature a throw away commodity (I am talking from a DJ point off view) who reads yesterdays papers? No way was a norther Soul DJ gong to stop playing a sound until it was or reached a high, and the bootleg cane out? how many of us got "Sweet Sherry" with "Lets have a love in Inst)

I feel in part the early stalwarts of the Wheel Mecca Junction & Torch Never in the slightest thought 40yrs on we would still love rare soul and in my case Reggae and can only apologies to the people who discovered Northern Soul after 1975 we forgot to ask our black brothers and sisters to come along, but hey there is a twist is it around 74 that black people in the UK had received the the Gunga Message and started to really slam home the message of liberation and emancipation and put down the old faith to adopt the Rasta Faith I & I RASTAFARI?./**PS Don't you just want to kick white blokes with locks right good and hard in the Knackers? I do and will always will?

These are my reflective opinions of my teenage years and the personal involvement I had in the Youth Sub-Cultures of the time, as such I would like to here your account of the BLACK & WHITE situation?

DAVE (to Rass Man) KIL

[Guest ZA9]

Hi all you Black & White Luvvers***This is entry #3 on the reason there are no Blax on the Soul Scene??

Well surprise surprise they went away and made there own scene and there own music??? but how did that come about and why are they on mass believe that Northern Soul scene was not for them:-

Are we all white racists? to be truthful I think not, but the true spirit of the rare soul scene was lost in those early days 71 to 75 and by then we all had become masonic about the scene. to understand my point you have to look no further than who is playing the 45s to give you a clue they are not black? and no matter how much we covered the uptempo music of the USA and white UK covers of the style, we left our inspiration of black music out of the scene, basically because it was run by dedicated white people who could pass a honers degree in the subject with the great wealth of factual knowledge and elitist ideals they got to the point that the 45s were accredited to them not the artist that was for all the punters to work out, self centred with CUPs to the extent that they did not acknowledge the real soul fan who sold them the record in the first place??**This insanity was a complete opposite to what the Black youth wanted and highlights the logic of why Ian Levine & Colin Curtis went down the road they did taking the hallowed Blackpool Mecca with Him. Traditionally in the States and very much so in Jamaica the DJ represented a high position in the community, and in particular through the sound mans 45s he was telling the community the NEWS ( Jamaica is a poor third world Country) a quick run down the records of the time the topics are all in 4 to 5 story lines SEX Poverty and Gambling , Drugs as most Jamaican music is controlled by the Producers not the artist, you can almost tell how much Bush Weed they smoked that day as with Ska which follows the rhythm of Rum Hence Rum rhythm Reggae was inspired by cannabis and hence the early sounds that introduced the Reggae Dance were sexual or US hits to Dance the Reggae suited the white working class Bovver boy as it was more manly to dance in the Jamaican Style (basically homophobic tendency here)The Reggae was more about the rhythm of the Hips not the feet suggestive and flirtatious, My first attempts to dance the Reggae were like so many white boys not quite the same as our black mates, the Jamaican way is almost like trying to F**K this movement was named as "welding" and if the Girl accepted the Dance the to welded together? meanwhile my attempts looked more like I was taking the p**s I can assure you I was not, however the white way to dance to the Reggae tried to copy the authentic style however a emphasis was to introduce the knees up mother brown element to the dance Fists up in a boxers style and footwork that consisted of showing all your mates you had a pair of cherry red Air Ware, so the daisy root dance was adopted??

Back in the rare soul Clubs the lack of Black people to show what the dance moves were eg:- the Duck Jerk Dog Pony and so on which is the original purpose of the tune, was given over to talented individuals who were proberly s**t hot at PE in School? and by 73 the spins side walking and hand clapping was a thrill to watch, personally I think the first 6 Wigan All Nighters were the epitome of Northern Soul Dancing as the place was still very much an underground scene and with many Torch goers not attending as they had grown up and got hitch in the Summer of 73 and when you are young March to September is a long time without the Torch on your doorstep (only the boys from the South really travelled to events?)

and to conclude this part I put it to you that the lack of understanding of not inviting a black DJ was always going to be a hard one to prove that it really had no intentional racist aspect at all?

The last Point is that Black music as I said carries a Message and is by nature a throw away commodity (I am talking from a DJ point off view) who reads yesterdays papers? No way was a norther Soul DJ gong to stop playing a sound until it was or reached a high, and the bootleg cane out? how many of us got "Sweet Sherry" with "Lets have a love in Inst)

I feel in part the early stalwarts of the Wheel Mecca Junction & Torch Never in the slightest thought 40yrs on we would still love rare soul and in my case Reggae and can only apologies to the people who discovered Northern Soul after 1975 we forgot to ask our black brothers and sisters to come along, but hey there is a twist is it around 74 that black people in the UK had received the the Gunga Message and started to really slam home the message of liberation and emancipation and put down the old faith to adopt the Rasta Faith I & I RASTAFARI?./**PS Don't you just want to kick white blokes with locks right good and hard in the Knackers? I do and will always will?

These are my reflective opinions of my teenage years and the personal involvement I had in the Youth Sub-Cultures of the time, as such I would like to here your account of the BLACK & WHITE situation?

DAVE (to Rass Man) KIL

[Guest ZA9]

Dthedrug's analysis is very deep. As an outside looking in, I can't even begin to understand the Black-White dynamics going on in the U.K. around Northern Soul or anything else, but it's probably accurate that White people into Northern Soul could identify with the music because it was produced by people who led "shit lives" like they did, namely we African Americans here in the U.S. It still isn't perfect for us over here, but our music doesn't tell you much about how we're doing. Having a President who's African American notwithstanding, there are still too many of us who are jobless, homeless, under-educated, etc. but you wouldn't know that to listen to our music, since nobody's singing or rapping about it. Not all of the '60s and '70s Soul was political either, but I guess you could hear the tension and frustration in the music if not in the lyrics, and that's what Northern Soulies could identify with in the U.K. Whatever, keep soul alive! I'm curious, are white youth in the U.K. into Northern Soul at all, or are they more into U.S. hip-hop or Jamaican reggae and dancehall?

[dthedrug]

Dthedrug's analysis is very deep. As an outside looking in, I can't even begin to understand the Black-White dynamics going on in the U.K. around Northern Soul or anything else, but it's probably accurate that White people into Northern Soul could identify with the music because it was produced by people who led "shit lives" like they did, namely we African Americans here in the U.S. It still isn't perfect for us over here, but our music doesn't tell you much about how we're doing. Having a President who's African American notwithstanding, there are still too many of us who are jobless, homeless, under-educated, etc. but you wouldn't know that to listen to our music, since nobody's singing or rapping about it. Not all of the '60s and '70s Soul was political either, but I guess you could hear the tension and frustration in the music if not in the lyrics, and that's what Northern Soulies could identify with in the U.K. Whatever, keep soul alive! I'm curious, are white youth in the U.K. into Northern Soul at all, or are they more into U.S. hip-hop or Jamaican reggae and dancehall?

Hi Mate Yes many people say i am deep? This is an asset to me especially when I work as a Counsellor, my style is very post modernist and integrative in psychological approach to the therapeutic to benefit the clients needs, this means as a part of my clinical practice I treat issues in steps over 6 sessions, to guarantee a positive outcome whatever the nature of the problem, however organic issues need psychiatry not counselling?? Basically I have always used and relate to my own loss issues that I have experienced throughout my life, and it is The LOSS issue that is behind most of mankind's depression sadness and anger, Empathy costs nothing but not many of us like to be genuine and transparent about there thoughts and feelings, its easier to stay depressed and have a good laugh now and again than the juxtaposition "ask your self when was the last time you had a laugh that you almost cried" if you cant remember stop and check yourself out! Racist views are not ours ? some one else give them to you/us its never to late to question are you the real you, I strongly believe that we are all equal once we accept who we are as such racism sexism and all the ism's would be eradicated from the world just like we did with smallpox and polio? it is noticeable to myself that the tension in the ever growing black community is the exception of black people from Africa, most black guys don't even know were this feeling comes from, I suggest it goes back 5 generations and black people from the USA and the Caribbean have something that black Africans don't have and it is within there souls that the harshness of slavery and lack of identity, as I say the real reason was a mistake at the start of our Scene the 6ts Mods mixed well so did the Bovver Boys of the late 6ts, however the rare soul scene started from a different stance altogether, Quite simply the desire to Collect rare Soul records in the main rare soul did not happen in London but like many people who lived in the South East and London they did not give up on soul quite the opposite and London has always been head of the game? even the longest running Rare Soul Event is on Oxford Street, the Tiles Club that was in spitting distance from the 100 Club had many black regulars same music policy but it was a current music scene not a rare one?? over the last 20years quite a few black people have started to collect good old Du-sties just the same as we did all those years ago? in the end it will all turn out fine?? DAVE KIL

[Julianb]

Lloyd Bogle from Huddersfield was a great dancer - we used to go to the Wheel together and he used to come to Lord Jim's in Huddersfield when I was DJing.

Oh, and he was black.

Julian

[Maark]

Dthedrug's analysis is very deep. As an outside looking in, I can't even begin to understand the Black-White dynamics going on in the U.K. around Northern Soul or anything else, but it's probably accurate that White people into Northern Soul could identify with the music because it was produced by people who led "shit lives" like they did, namely we African Americans here in the U.S. It still isn't perfect for us over here, but our music doesn't tell you much about how we're doing. Having a President who's African American notwithstanding, there are still too many of us who are jobless, homeless, under-educated, etc. but you wouldn't know that to listen to our music, since nobody's singing or rapping about it. Not all of the '60s and '70s Soul was political either, but I guess you could hear the tension and frustration in the music if not in the lyrics, and that's what Northern Soulies could identify with in the U.K. Whatever, keep soul alive! I'm curious, are white youth in the U.K. into Northern Soul at all, or are they more into U.S. hip-hop or Jamaican reggae and dancehall?

I don't see 60/70's soul as being political in the slightest! One of the aspects I love about soul music is that there seems a tune (or 50) to sum up just about every human emotion and the artist's who produced the work were obviously in touch with their 'soul'. They say most artists produce their best work in times of crisis...... hardship makes you constantly evaluate your life and as you say ZA9, black Americans had it tough. And as the soul singers used the medium of music to express themselves so the (mainly) white working class kids of Britain were able to express themselves too, through the music, on the dance floor.

There are some teens/ 20 somethings into soul but very few in comparison to those into rap.

[ImberBoy]

I keep reading the last few posts over and over trying to make sense of them?

Not quite sure as to what the points are or even what the reasoning are to the original question?

There have been some excellent social comments but no real stab at a theory as to why there aren't many black faces on the Northernsoul scene.

Black America has some healing to do due to years of oppression and a deep rooted mistrust born from slavery, no one would argue that, but I am not too convinced this effected many people on these shores especially during the mid seventies?

I can appreciate Caribbean connections and a liking to keep a heritage and a musical culture but this still doesn't go any where near to answering why there are so few black people into Northernsoul?

Its grim oop North and we do have a collective shared working class experience or at least a perception of one. GB suffered certainly more than the US did after the war with jobs and rationing, going back further than that we were slaves to the Romans for a considerable time but time has healed that little hiccup. We as a nation have had our share of invaders and we have gone to bloody war in living memory but I don't think our suffering has had much to do with tapping the odd toe to "Tears of a clown"?

I do not sign up to the theory that it all went "Masonic" and that we all became record collectors, we did not. Yes there were some mega serious collectors but the meat and potatoes was not about collecting it was and still is about dancing, yup we all have the music now, but its on CD. Not many of us had the money or the in depth knowledge to peruse any such collections other than the normal record purchasing that was done back in the day prior to CD.

I don't agree with the artists tearing their soul out, again there were some, quite a few as it happens, but the majority are bubble gum I love her, she doesn't love me tracks, no one ever sets out to write a flop do they? Remember at that time cutting a record was very much of a business and business is cut throat so commercially viable tunes get released and those with a message are only released if they can sell.

[Jordirip]

I don't agree with the artists tearing their soul out, again there were some, quite a few as it happens, but the majority are bubble gum I love her, she doesn't love me tracks, no one ever sets out to write a flop do they? Remember at that time cutting a record was very much of a business and business is cut throat so commercially viable tunes get released and those with a message are only released if they can sell.

Plenty of artists tearing their souls out, you only have to listen to Sam Dees' pain on his 'Show must go on' lp or the countless other deep soul tunes, Vietnam tunes etc. But I agree most of this heart rending stuff is based around love/relationship lyrics and that is an area that we all have in common regardless of colour. Deep political lyrics were and still are regarded as potentially boat rocking, and the system doesn't want to be rocked. Also a lot of artists probably didn't/don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. It's always been ok for white rock bands to write controversial lyrics condemming the system, but not so much for black groups unless you are untouchable like Marvin, Curtis or Stevie. The only area in black music where 'concious' lyrics have made big bucks for record companies has been through rap music, yet someone like Gil Scot-Heron who would have inspired many rap artists has never received the kind of promotion and support that would ensure his lyrics were heard by the masses. Luckily bands like Public Enemy did reach the masses with their lyrics and how they must hate seeing the plastic, bling and grind shit lyrics that are now peddled as rap music for a generation of gullible people to aspire to. But the record companies are making millions off this shit, so it won't change. Good lyrics by people like Michael Franti don't stand a chance of getting through, you can express sorrow at the situation you are living in but you can't put over biting critical sociological/political reasons why you are in that situation.

Jordi

[dthedrug]

Plenty of artists tearing their souls out, you only have to listen to Sam Dees' pain on his 'Show must go on' lp or the countless other deep soul tunes, Vietnam tunes etc. But I agree most of this heart rending stuff is based around love/relationship lyrics and that is an area that we all have in common regardless of colour. Deep political lyrics were and still are regarded as potentially boat rocking, and the system doesn't want to be rocked. Also a lot of artists probably didn't/don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. It's always been ok for white rock bands to write controversial lyrics condemning the system, but not so much for black groups unless you are untouchable like Marvin, Curtis or Stevie. The only area in black music where 'conscious' lyrics have made big bucks for record companies has been through rap music, yet someone like Gil Scot-Heron who would have inspired many rap artists has never received the kind of promotion and support that would ensure his lyrics were heard by the masses. Luckily bands like Public Enemy did reach the masses with their lyrics and how they must hate seeing the plastic, bling and grind shit lyrics that are now peddled as rap music for a generation of gullible people to aspire to. But the record companies are making millions off this shit, so it won't change. Good lyrics by people like Michael Franti don't stand a chance of getting through, you can express sorrow at the situation you are living in but you can't put over biting critical sociological/political reasons why you are in that situation.

Jordi

Just a quickie Much has been written about Soul music in the UK, and as Such not to much about the Northern Scene, and if you see Film the Little there is of it ? this is again a bug of mine the complete ignorance and denial especially in 69, it is if we did not exist and by March The Bovver boy was dead if not 2 months earlier, However the word "Skinhead" was used by all and the style become available to all, even markets sold copy cat clothing, I can see it now Jay-Tex shirts and a crombie coat for £4.s 19.11d Levi Jeans 501 zipped were 52/6 to give you a guide as many Boot Boy started there Borstal 6m to 2 the rest of the country was SKINHEAD mad,

My piece about politics and black music is a documented fact How ever the debate can continue if you feel there is or was no sense of freedom in the black people of the Southern States FOLLOWING THE DEATH OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, The reference to the fact the scene came from and was driven by record collectors of rare soul ( Record collector #7 I think the late Chris Savery used the words to introduce readers to the rare record aspect of Northern Soul, he also uses the dancers pointe of view? For me I found the scene who was responsible for starting it or even where it started?? I know I was collecting Black music as soon as I left school as they were pricey I robbed many records in the early days so I could DJ in a Pub come to think of it the Disco was also Nicked Tut Tut. and finally there were 2 great black dancers from our area Josh & Kingsley who were dancing to uptempo stuff in 65 at the Stevenage Mecca and were well known to all in this Modland??don't forget we will all have a different story to tell about the early days and for us who lived through this time were just Kids growing up I had Mates Black and White, however my black mates seemed to have life sussed out way before I did as the sense of family unity and respect was strong and I envy them and wanted to be like them??

DAVE (SPIRIT OF 69) KIL

[dthedrug]

Hi all, just dug this photo out, its a nice one of the entrance to the Tiles Club Posters are typical of the time**named DJ was always from a Pirate Radio Station, Fashion very similar to the 68 look, Hair "french Boy Boston Back",**FACE at the Door is a Peddler and is very in the know**also he is a big lad??. ** As I have stated this could of been the WHEEEL, but it was a Soho club. ** My Brother saw Jimi Hendrix at the Tiles in 66 ** 1st pic is Little Scottie and myself at the Torch Reunion, not long to go now by the look of me?? DAVE KIL

[Liam2005]

My girlfriend is mixed race and she hates Northern soul, but get this loves motown and funk lol. Strange i know . The one thing i would say from experience is there is racism in all walks of life and it can be found on the northern Scene and nearly every other scene. I have witnessed many a remark in the toilets of the 100club and various other do's even at our own the capitol soul club. The worse one i came across was a skinhead at the 100club who i offered out for his uneducated remarks re one of the bouncers winston. These things happen unfortunatley but we must stamp it out straight away....run at it not away from it.

Greg

[Bazza]

I dont think there is an answer to this,but my thouhts are this ,in the early days late 60's to early 70's in Nottingham ,the clubs played soul Reggae R&B, ,as time passed Reggae was played less, as a result up popped the blues bars or clubs ,usually in a deserted house cellar ,dont know why they were called Blues, cos blues as we know it was not played they played only reggae then in came funk as well as Reggae,and thes places were started and run by Blacks so if a white went to a blues they felt uncomfortable,I didnt feel uncomfortable cos i was quit well known by blacks and whites in fact the blacks moved on to funk and jazz funk,it was the white lads that did not move on ,Not an answer just the way it was

Bazza

[dthedrug]

I dont think there is an answer to this,but my thoughts are this ,in the early days late 60's to early 70's in Nottingham ,the clubs played soul Reggae R&B, ,as time passed Reggae was played less, as a result up popped the blues bars or clubs ,usually in a deserted house cellar ,dont know why they were called Blues, cos blues as we know it was not played they played only reggae then in came funk as well as Reggae,and these places were started and run by Blacks so if a white went to a blues they felt uncomfortable,I didn't feel uncomfortable cos i was quit well known by blacks and whites in fact the blacks moved on to funk and jazz funk,it was the white lads that did not move on ,Not an answer just the way it was

Bazza

See Lads I thought I told you that in 68/9 Skinhead as a word came from a "red top" and if you look at the photo of the Tiles Club in 66 there really is not a lot of difference style. I think that if had not been for 1967 there would never been "Boot Boys" and its a fact most BB,s went on to be Borstal Boys have The BB is not chosen as accidental the Gangs of the day were CREWS and like the underworld Firms most crews were made up with a big criminal element but for every 100 I will call them Skinheads, only about 10 were the hard core crew members or Faces to use a London term, most people just loved the Fashion like yourselves, somehow I cant see you with a razor or knife ready to fight while your mates ran away?? I think we are getting of the subject here..however if you are interest in the development of the Boot Boy and in a very short space of time under 24 months and it had gone as quick as it came please contact myself, you girl is a looker I have Just the right 2 Shirts for her and a BIG E Levi jacket almost bespoke to her (by looking at Photo) she is dressed like a West Ham Sort??? DAVE KIL

[Guest Beeks]

Check it out!!!!

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=mHNxqRxW1nc

Brilliant...not seen that before

Check out Sir Norman haha