Collecting British...why Bother?

[Dean Rudland]

Really? I always thought it was more like 500. Having said that, the Lorenzo Smith is the only one I've got! Or seen!

Mike Vernon's label pressed 99 copies on a lot of his early stuff as less than a hundred copies meant he didn't have to pay sales tax.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Dean Rudland

[Guest john s]

Mike Vernon's label pressed 99 copies on a lot of his early stuff as less than a hundred copies meant he didn't have to pay sales tax.

I knew that applied to the early LPs and Purdah 45s, didn't realise it included the Outasites too!

[ritchie]

Collecting British has all ways been my passion....

I Started by trawling the junk shops of London on Saturdays in the mid-70's.

Turning up all sorts & paying for my trips to the north with the 'cheapies' & spare copies .

The Day I found Sandy Wynns (20p)in junk shop in E2 was a real high point.

I still have it & would never sell it.

And yeah I agree with the previous post ... getting them out of the box every now and then and just staring at them is a wonderful

thing .

it cheers me up no end ...

[Pete S]

You lot need to know your place, these are the three commandments which sort out the true believers:

you are not allowed to collect UK labels, it means you are not a real soul fan

you must like crossover soul music otherwise you have a small 'soul brain' and you are not a real soul fan

you are not allowed to profess a liking to any northern soul track by a white artist because it means you are not a real soul fan

remember these three commandments and you will never get any hassle from the soul snobs who like to think they are at the top of the evolutionary chain.

I've tried to follow the commandments but failed absolutely, and am now down at amoeba level as far as evolution goes

Chin up!

[AlanB]

You lot need to know your place, these are the three commandments which sort out the true believers:

you are not allowed to collect UK labels, it means you are not a real soul fan

you must like crossover soul music otherwise you have a small 'soul brain' and you are not a real soul fan

you are not allowed to profess a liking to any northern soul track by a white artist because it means you are not a real soul fan

remember these three commandments and you will never get any hassle from the soul snobs who like to think they are at the top of the evolutionary chain.

I've tried to follow the commandments but failed absolutely, and am now down at amoeba level as far as evolution goes

Chin up!

4th commandment: you must not publish a fanzine dedicated to UK releases.

Alan

[trog]

You lot need to know your place, these are the three commandments which sort out the true believers:

you are not allowed to collect UK labels, it means you are not a real soul fan

you must like crossover soul music otherwise you have a small 'soul brain' and you are not a real soul fan

you are not allowed to profess a liking to any northern soul track by a white artist because it means you are not a real soul fan

remember these three commandments and you will never get any hassle from the soul snobs who like to think they are at the top of the evolutionary chain.

I've tried to follow the commandments but failed absolutely, and am now down at amoeba level as far as evolution goes

Chin up!

Me too... thought i was a soul fan! How disillusioned was i !

[Pete S]

4th commandment: you must not publish a fanzine dedicated to UK releases.

Alan

Wish I had a full set of those!

[Sean Hampsey]

you are not allowed to collect UK labels, it means you are not a real soul fan

you must like crossover soul music otherwise you have a small 'soul brain' and you are not a real soul fan

you are not allowed to profess a liking to any northern soul track by a white artist because it means you are not a real soul fan

That first commandment is nonsense. I collect UK labels and doubt anyone who knows me would say I'm not a real soul fan.

But I'm quite happy to go along with the other two.

Sean

Edited March 26, 2010 by Sean Hampsey

[AlanB]

Wish I had a full set of those!

What, do you mean you haven't kept copies of all your Beat'n' Rhythmns? If you're wanting to fill gaps, would "bootlegs" (photocopies) do, or are you just looking for originals?

Alan

[funkyfeet]

[Ian Dewhirst]

I've tried to follow the commandments but failed absolutely, and am now down at amoeba level as far as evolution goes

Really refreshing to have such honest self-evaluation here Pete. Well done mate!

Ian D

[Tai-pan]

Does anyone still really seriously collect British? I mean it may have been ok in the 70s but as all of the best records came out on US labels first whats the point in collecting what are essentially re-issues of the original US release?

Chris

I've never really understood the whole british release thing to be honest. Legal re-issues for the most part, and the choice/quality of releases reflects the lack of understanding of soul. later day releases of unissued material is slightly different, could be argued and fair enough. Its all too nostalgic. Why collect british, when the original US labels were first. Its all seems very odd and make believe. and yes I know about the mod/early clubs argument etc etc.

[Supercorsa]

I'd favour US over UK releases, the exceptions being stuff that hasn't been released in US. How can anyone find those boring white Chess/PYE Int promos attractive ?

[Pete S]

What, do you mean you haven't kept copies of all your Beat'n' Rhythmns? If you're wanting to fill gaps, would "bootlegs" (photocopies) do, or are you just looking for originals?

Alan

No I think I've got about 8 or 9 of them, originals were destroyed, it's the later ones that are missing because I think I made it to issue 16 eventually.

[Pete S]

and the choice/quality of releases reflects the lack of understanding of soul.

What rubbish, it's easy to say that 45 years after the event isn't it, but whoever picked The Vontastics, Dean parrish, Fascinations, Invitations, Jay W King, Rufus Lumey etc for Stateside didn't do a bad job, bell obviously had someone in the know as they released some fabulous soul cuts, I mean that statement is just ludicrous, if anything the people were visionaries.

[Pete S]

I'd favour US over UK releases, the exceptions being stuff that hasn't been released in US. How can anyone find those boring white Chess/PYE Int promos attractive ?

Compared to the US Chess promos which are either stock copies with DJ Copy on them or, er, white demos. F*cking scintillating stuff.

[Barry]

Oooooh!

Edited March 26, 2010 by Barry

[Guest Gogs]

Popped into a local used record shop this afternoon ( i know the owner quite well) , he let me look through a box of about 100 records that he had just got in, mostly british originals . He's going to put a lot off them up on e-bay (uk sue, tamla and others inc Ike & Tina "somebody somewhere") and sell the rest from his shop when he gets them priced up, so guess where i'm going back to soon.

[soulAdequateNP]

Yes, then ATV became part of the Australian group ACC (owned by "corporate raider" Robert Holmes A Court) who soon sold both ATV Music and Pye Records.

Someone called Michael Jackson bought ATV Music (with borrowed money from Japan) and Pye Records became Precision Records & Tapes (known as "PRT" but some people in the industry unfairly abbreviated it to "PRAT") because they couldn't afford to pay to continue using the PYE brand name.

If you think this is sad, blame the Australians!

I thought ATV effectively finished when the IBA forced them to sell 51% to local investors, resulting in them becoming Central on air and the holding company becoming ACC, and that Court took over after Lew Grade was ousted by the board of directors in the aftermath...?

Getting back on topic, I remember the change from Pye to PRT - some labels from around that time have obviously blacked out Pye logos and PRT lettering stamped nearby (don't think I actually own any but one sees them around often enough).

And speaking of Pye, here's another favourite of mine:

[Pete S]

I thought ATV effectively finished when the IBA forced them to sell 51% to local investors, resulting in them becoming Central on air and the holding company becoming ACC, and that Court took over after Lew Grade was ousted by the board of directors in the aftermath...?

Getting back on topic, I remember the change from Pye to PRT - some labels from around that time have obviously blacked out Pye logos and PRT lettering stamped nearby (don't think I actually own any but one sees them around often enough).

And speaking of Pye, here's another favourite of mine:

Sorry to be such a trainspotter but both this and your MGM 45 are in the wrong sleeves!

[Guest Paul]

I thought ATV effectively finished when the IBA forced them to sell 51% to local investors, resulting in them becoming Central on air and the holding company becoming ACC, and that Court took over after Lew Grade was ousted by the board of directors in the aftermath...?

Getting back on topic, I remember the change from Pye to PRT - some labels from around that time have obviously blacked out Pye logos and PRT lettering stamped nearby (don't think I actually own any but one sees them around often enough).

And speaking of Pye, here's another favourite of mine:

Hello Neil,

That's correct, ATV (as in Anglia Television) was the parent company of ATV Music and Pye Records, then it became Associated Communications Corp (ACC) and the Australians took control, selling both ATV Music and Pye Records.

And yes I have a few Pye issues with blacked out label areas to obscure PYE and replace it with PRT.

That Jackie Ross 45 looks nice, we used a shot of it in her Grapevine CD sleeve booklet a few years ago.

[Guest Paul]

Sorry to be such a trainspotter but both this and your MGM 45 are in the wrong sleeves!

Well spotted, Pete. Pop round to Neil's place and sort that out before his collection is seriously devalued.

I hate to see 45s in the wrong sleeves. If I don't have the right sleeve they go in white sleeves until I can get a proper one (even a repro).

[Guest john s]

I hate to see 45s in the wrong sleeves. If I don't have the right sleeve they go in white sleeves until I can get a proper one (even a repro).

Rather a white sleeve than a repro!

(as long as it's an original wavy-top white sleeve, of course)

[Guest Paul]

...That Jackie Ross 45 looks nice, we used a shot of it in her Grapevine CD sleeve booklet a few years ago.

I just realised it was four years ago TODAY. We just managed to get the CD released in time for her apperance in Wakefield with Syl Johnson. The event was organised by Dave Box to celebrate his 60th birthday.

That means that Dave must be 64 today so "happy birthday" Dave, if you're lurking out there somewhere.

[Guest Paul]

Rather a white sleeve than a repro!

(as long as it's an original wavy-top white sleeve, of course)

Well some of them are "curly cut" so they are almost acceptable ...aren't they???

Oh well, I'll just have to hide them somewhere out of sight. I'll put them in a box marked "pornography" or something!

Edited March 26, 2010 by Paul

[Tai-pan]

What rubbish, it's easy to say that 45 years after the event isn't it, but whoever picked The Vontastics, Dean parrish, Fascinations, Invitations, Jay W King, Rufus Lumey etc for Stateside didn't do a bad job, bell obviously had someone in the know as they released some fabulous soul cuts, I mean that statement is just ludicrous, if anything the people were visionaries.

Vontastics, Dean parrish, Fascinations, Invitations, Jay W King, Rufus Lumey ....... Visionaries at Stateside ????? Pete, you may love those little red and green A's but give us a break. The overall quality of British released 60's soul is limited and poor by the benchmark of US original releases in general. I understand that British releases with those small holes holds a nostalgic "british industry" fascination for some people. But but its certainly not on the fertile ground of proper and serious rare soul record collecting, more of a "toy hobby kind of thing".

Edited March 27, 2010 by Tai-Pan

[dthedrug]

Vontastics, Dean parrish, Fascinations, Invitations, Jay W King, Rufus Lumey ....... Visionaries at Stateside ????? Pete, you may love those little red and green A's but give us a break. The overall quality of British released 60's soul is limited and poor by the benchmark of US original releases in general. I understand that British releases with those small holes holds a nostalgic "british industry" fascination for some people. But but its certainly not on the fertile ground of proper and serious rare soul record collecting, more of a "toy hobby kind of thing".

Whats your piont? what are you trying to say? and who the F**k are you! Dave UK collector.

[aintgotit]

You lot need to know your place, these are the three commandments which sort out the true believers:

you are not allowed to collect UK labels, it means you are not a real soul fan

you must like crossover soul music otherwise you have a small 'soul brain' and you are not a real soul fan

you are not allowed to profess a liking to any northern soul track by a white artist because it means you are not a real soul fan

remember these three commandments and you will never get any hassle from the soul snobs who like to think they are at the top of the evolutionary chain.

I've tried to follow the commandments but failed absolutely, and am now down at amoeba level as far as evolution goes

Chin up!

hmm, amoeba eh, does that make you a single soululler organism? heh heh.

[Sheldonsoul]

Vontastics, Dean parrish, Fascinations, Invitations, Jay W King, Rufus Lumey ....... Visionaries at Stateside ????? Pete, you may love those little red and green A's but give us a break. The overall quality of British released 60's soul is limited and poor by the benchmark of US original releases in general. I understand that British releases with those small holes holds a nostalgic "british industry" fascination for some people. But but its certainly not on the fertile ground of proper and serious rare soul record collecting, more of a "toy hobby kind of thing".

think your talking bo**ox mate(toy hobby kind of thing) what a nob

[aintgotit]

hmm, amoeba eh, does that make you a single soululler organism? heh heh.

ho ho, but check out the remarks from tai pan , i guess his remarks make him a varisoul (thats a play on the word varicele out of interest). or in laymans terms a ballbag with a hole in it which swells out of all its normal proportions because air gets sucked in and stays there.i wonder if he has one of those private number plates marking out out his wealth and taste in soul music from the rest of usa amaoebas, something like R,SOUL perhaps.or maybe those remarks were tongue in cheek like these.

[Guest Dave Turner]

ho ho, but check out the remarks from tai pan , i guess his remarks make him a varisoul (thats a play on the word varicele out of interest). or in laymans terms a ballbag with a hole in it which swells out of all its normal proportions because air gets sucked in and stays there.i wonder if he has one of those private number plates marking out out his wealth and taste in soul music from the rest of usa amaoebas, something like R,SOUL perhaps.or maybe those remarks were tongue in cheek like these.

A coffee spluttering moment. Bill on its way to ya for a new keyboard

[Pete S]

Vontastics, Dean parrish, Fascinations, Invitations, Jay W King, Rufus Lumey ....... Visionaries at Stateside ????? Pete, you may love those little red and green A's but give us a break. The overall quality of British released 60's soul is limited and poor by the benchmark of US original releases in general. I understand that British releases with those small holes holds a nostalgic "british industry" fascination for some people. But but its certainly not on the fertile ground of proper and serious rare soul record collecting, more of a "toy hobby kind of thing".

UK = small

USA = very large

releases are in proportion to the population, doesn't take a genius to work out there will be more releases in the largest country, does it?

[Pete S]

Whats your piont? what are you trying to say? and who the F**k are you! Dave UK collector.

Nice one Dave!

[Itsthebeat]

The most important point to make about UK released 45's is that they are manufactured to a better quality. Certainly better than USA 45's! The majority of the great Soul records where recorded and pressed in the US, but are far inferior to a UK manufactured 45. Not all UK 45's are as colourful, but the grade of vinyl and the detail to the labels (credits etc....), using Decca Records as an example, is difficult to surpass. UK records have always, and still do, fetch a higher price than the US press of the same track. Is this because we are all patriotic or that we all know that the quality is better?

[Tai-pan]

UK = small

USA = very large

releases are in proportion to the population, doesn't take a genius to work out there will be more releases in the largest country, does it?

It wasn't a thread or conversation about number of releases per head count., but one of significance in in soul collecting terms. I agree that there is a small collecting scene for rare British soul releases. My opinion is that its all a bit silly and pointless really, as the originals of most British releases ARE by and large american. I mean, its not likely that you can discover great new unknown releases now is it? Get my point?

[Tai-pan]

Whats your piont? what are you trying to say? and who the F**k are you! Dave UK collector.

Contributing to the thread with my opinion on the strange habit of collecting boring unexciting and limited British Soul Releases.

Dave, what's your opinion, and how can you defend a soul record collecting scene based on re-issues and limited richness of quality and scope?

[Barry]

Goo on lads!

[Tai-pan]

ho ho, but check out the remarks from tai pan , i guess his remarks make him a varisoul (thats a play on the word varicele out of interest). or in laymans terms a ballbag with a hole in it which swells out of all its normal proportions because air gets sucked in and stays there.i wonder if he has one of those private number plates marking out out his wealth and taste in soul music from the rest of usa amaoebas, something like R,SOUL perhaps.or maybe those remarks were tongue in cheek like these.

You see the problem with you single soululler organisms (amaoebas) is that you seem unable to see the error of your rather poor, sad little ways. It would warrant re-examination from us higher ordered and sophisticated soul folk IF you could actually debate and constructively articulate a defense of your absurd british collecting behaviour and habitual fascination with Red and Green A'd reissues?

Tongue in cheek .... hmm?

[Godzilla]

The most important point to make about UK released 45's is that they are manufactured to a better quality. Certainly better than USA 45's! The majority of the great Soul records where recorded and pressed in the US, but are far inferior to a UK manufactured 45. Not all UK 45's are as colourful, but the grade of vinyl and the detail to the labels (credits etc....), using Decca Records as an example, is difficult to surpass. UK records have always, and still do, fetch a higher price than the US press of the same track. Is this because we are all patriotic or that we all know that the quality is better?

Well yeah but, no but. It's well documented that lots of UK Atlantic stuff is dubbed from disc and sounds pretty shoddy compared to the US counterparts. Same with other labes I guess: I recently picked up a UK Stateside demo of the Isley Brorthers "Love The One You're With" (great version by the way!) . Sounds very poor when played next to the T-Neck US issue. As for the issue around which labels have most detail - how about running times on UK issues?

Not that I'm taking sides however - I collect US, UK, euro and any other exotic foreign releases. Variations just make it more interesting for me

[Tai-pan]

think your talking bo**ox mate(toy hobby kind of thing) what a nob

And your value added contribution to the thread is???

By the way, is a nob another name for one of your fellow amoeba species, just not sure if you meant it as a compliment or not?

I've just saw another Shane Martin demo in a Camden junk shop, best go before I lose it, mint condition in original CBS advance sleeve too, WOW!!!

[Pete S]

It wasn't a thread or conversation about number of releases per head count., but one of significance in in soul collecting terms. I agree that there is a small collecting scene for rare British soul releases. My opinion is that its all a bit silly and pointless really, as the originals of most British releases ARE by and large american. I mean, its not likely that you can discover great new unknown releases now is it? Get my point?

No, because you're wrong. I'm still finding new things every few months.

[Pete S]

And your value added contribution to the thread is???

By the way, is a nob another name for one of your fellow amoeba species, just not sure if you meant it as a compliment or not?

I've just saw another Shane Martin demo in a Camden junk shop, best go before I lose it, mint condition in original CBS advance sleeve too, WOW!!!

What exactly is a CBS advance sleeve then?

[Sheldonsoul]

And your value added contribution to the thread is???

By the way, is a nob another name for one of your fellow amoeba species, just not sure if you meant it as a compliment or not?

I've just saw another Shane Martin demo in a Camden junk shop, best go before I lose it, mint condition in original CBS advance sleeve too, WOW!!!

think your heads up your own ass mate, how can you say that there is a small uk collecting scene and its in your view a toy hobby sort of thing, ive never heard such crap. you seem to really think that you know everything and belong to some sort of soul royalty and just look down on us uk collecting soul paupers.i myself collect uk demos but also collect usa records,and know a hell of a lot of uk collectors so how can you say its a small collecting scene i think the soul scene could do without shallow opinionated small minded tossers like yourself

[Sheldonsoul]

What exactly is a CBS advance sleeve then?

isnt it a cbs demo sleeve or something

[Tai-pan]

What exactly is a CBS advance sleeve then?

One of your new weekly discoveries Pete! Remember? sleeves are just as important as the vinyl that lies within.

[Pete S]

One of your new weekly discoveries Pete! Remember? sleeves are just as important as the vinyl that lies within.

Says who? Not me. I said totally the opposite in a thread about precisely that which is currently running.

Your attempted point scoring is a bit rubbish to be honest. Pointless.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Pete S

[Guest Dave Turner]

I knew this thread reminded me of something

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=w0DUsGSMwZY

Edited March 27, 2010 by Dave Turner

[Barry]

I knew this thread reminded me of something

https://www.youtube.c...h?v=w0DUsGSMwZY

Does your cap and scarf itch just that bit too much?

[Guest Dave Turner]

Does your cap and scarf itch just that bit too much?

Sure does mate, I know my place

[Barry]

Sure does mate, I know my place

Keep it light mate, that's the way - I can feel a touch of the pack mentality coming on.