Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Right I aint been paying attention !!!, I love the 'Sweet Temptation' track that Ady has been playing at the 100 Club for years, I believe the version that Ady plays is the Cressa Watson version ?. However there are versions by both Martha Starr & Ward Burton, I know Ward Burton was released on Panther, but can someone pse post the details off the other releases, although I'm assuming Cressa Watson is unissued ?. I also have Tobi Lark in my head in connection with all of this too, but wondered if it had been covered up as TL at some point ?. Many thx Russ 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ady Croasdell Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Mine's a Martha Starr vinyl release Russ, I think Cressa Watson was an unreleased master tape that Ace put out on a weird LP in the 80s and it may well be the same as the Martha. Ward Burton is the same song but a much different backing and not actually a Major Bill recording as far as I remember. I've heard the Martha/Cressa version with added girl b vox from tape and it sounded great but I don't have a copy. Ady 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Mine's a Martha Starr vinyl release Russ, I think Cressa Watson was an unreleased master tape that Ace put out on a weird LP in the 80s and it may well be the same as the Martha. Ward Burton is the same song but a much different backing and not actually a Major Bill recording as far as I remember. I've heard the Martha/Cressa version with added girl b vox from tape and it sounded great but I don't have a copy. Ady Thank you Ady thats brilliant mate........its amazing the things that come into ya head when killin' time in the dessert sorry desert , so Martha Starr got an official release, was this on Charay ?. Thank you for your help Ady Best Russ Edited June 30, 2011 by Russ Vickers Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Also, how come Martha Starr ended up recording a Major Bill tune ?. Best Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Martha and Cressa are the same singer to my cloth ears. Difference between the two is the break or lack of it in one or t'other. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Martha and Cressa are the same singer to my cloth ears. Difference between the two is the break or lack of it in one or t'other. So which has the break Martha or Cressa & what was the Ace LP called please. Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Can't remember, need to listen again. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Whilst the vocal sounds similar, I think some of the phrasing is different...cant quite explain....anyone ? Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Benji Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 So which has the break Martha or Cressa & what was the Ace LP called please. Russ LP is a budget type of thing released on Cascade "20 great unknown soul classics". You can pick it up very cheap And here's an interesting quote lifted from the Soul Strutter blog site: It turns out that 'Sweet Temptation' was also recorded on Charay by Cressa Watson who also recorded as Carolyn Sullivan on Philips Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dobber Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 ward burton is on the bay! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) ward burton is on the bay! Yes it is & whilst it is a cool version, I personally prefer the female vox & the different tempo with the female versions - sweet as sweet can be to these ears........I must have been dancin' to these for 10 years or more, but only just got to really thinkin about em. Russ Edited June 30, 2011 by Russ Vickers Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thx Benji.....anyone have one for sale pse ? Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Martha Starr has the long instrumental break, Cressa Watson doesnt, but other than this its the same vocalist deffinitly.......pse can anyone shed any light on why one version has been credited to Cressa Watson (unissued) & one to Martha Starr, issued on Charay ?. Best Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Martha Starr has the long instrumental break, Cressa Watson doesnt, but other than this its the same vocalist deffinitly.......pse can anyone shed any light on why one version has been credited to Cressa Watson (unissued) & one to Martha Starr, issued on Charay ?. Best Russ Just got in and had a listen and was about to get back to you but you've already sussed which is which. I've said all along (for years) Martha and Cressa versions the same female singing Presume it is the same Martha Starr we know from Detroit. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Just got in and had a listen and was about to get back to you but you've already sussed which is which. I've said all along (for years) Martha and Cressa versions the same female singing Presume it is the same Martha Starr we know from Detroit. Yes mate, I'm certain as I can be theyre the same, which raises a couple of questions, on the assumption Martha Starr was based in Detroit, what was she doing recording for Charay ?, also & I might be stating something people already know (?), but I'm wondering whether the unissued Cressa Watson cut was uncredited when found & as it was an alternative take (although Martha Starr version may not have been widely known ?) was incorrectly credited to Cressa Watson ???........ Would be very grateful if anyone can shed any light on this ? Best Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Got Cressa Watson on a compilation lp called "20 great unknown Soul Classics of the 60's & 70's" On the UK Cascade label. Purchased this about '90,went down the 100 club and Butch played the other one with the instru break. "What have you done to Cressa Watson?",i asked...I wont repeat the reply... Written and produced by Major Bill Smith,1973. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Yes mate, I'm certain as I can be theyre the same, which raises a couple of questions, on the assumption Martha Starr was based in Detroit, what was she doing recording for Charay ?, also & I might be stating something people already know (?), but I'm wondering whether the unissued Cressa Watson cut was uncredited when found & as it was an alternative take (although Martha Starr version may not have been widely known ?) was incorrectly credited to Cressa Watson ???........ Would be very grateful if anyone can shed any light on this ? Best Russ One could have been a demo? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Cheers Kev........ Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Louise Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Yes mate, I'm certain as I can be theyre the same, which raises a couple of questions, on the assumption Martha Starr was based in Detroit, what was she doing recording for Charay ?, also & I might be stating something people already know (?), but I'm wondering whether the unissued Cressa Watson cut was uncredited when found & as it was an alternative take (although Martha Starr version may not have been widely known ?) was incorrectly credited to Cressa Watson ???........ Would be very grateful if anyone can shed any light on this ? Best Russ Actually Martha Starr is out of Greenville South Carolina, and just happened to cut 3 -45's for Thelma Dave Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Hi Dave Thanks for the info......any other thoughts. Hope you are well. Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Martha Starr was from Greenville as Dave says and was a member of Moses Dillard's Tex-Town Display (along with the young Peabo Bryson). I'm guessing that live and session work with Dillard bought her to the attention of Bill Smith, hence the Charay recordings. Moses Dillard was part of the Sons of Moses of Soul Symphony fame of course. The Tex-Town name of the group has nothing to do with Texas, but instead refers to the fact that Greenville South Carolina was once the centre of the South's textile industry. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest hudsoul Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Wasnt TOBI LARK what Butch had Martha Starr covered up as??????? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Louise Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Wasnt TOBI LARK what Butch had Martha Starr covered up as??????? That's right, it came from Soul Bowl to Mick Smith who chose the cover -up name Tobi Lark. But after a couple of spins at the 100 club Mick decided to traded it to Butch for some big oldie he wanted more, it may have been Johhnny Hunnicut ?I think but then again that was over 20 years ago Dave Edited July 1, 2011 by Louise Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Stillsoulin Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have Cressa Watson on Charey doing a version of Dead ( same as Carolyn Sullivan on Philips ) but definatley a different version, a great inst break in it too, tother side is an inst, not of dead. Vocally they do not sound the same so not sure if the info stating it was her is correct. Rob. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Anyone got a decent photo of Martha, this is best I can find right now.... some info posted on Soulful Detroit courtesy of Martha's sisster Ruth... Martha (Shamley) was born in 1945. Her and her older sister (Ruth) was raised by their grandmother. Martha went to St. Francis elementary school, Sterling High School outside Greenville South Carolina. She started singing when she was 12 in the choir at Sweet Canaan Baptist church.Martha started singing in her church and they would travel around to other country churches and sing there. She made a gospel record there in South Carolina. In 1964 Martha went to Michigan with her older sister after their grandmother died. They moved there because they knew there was better opportunities. In 1969 she went to Ford Motor Company, but she still did her music, didn't give up her singing career at all. Martha started singing at Mull's bar on Joy road, near Grand River. She met Dennis Edwards and they started singing there, on weekends. After she left Mull's bar she sang at the 20 Grand, went to Motown with Berry Gordy. After her and Dennis split up, he went with the Temptations, Martha Ann went to her mam & dads studio on Grand River across from Northwestern High school. There she sang with Steve Mancha, Marvin Gaye and Emanuel Lasky. Martha Ann was a backup singer for Marvin Gaye, and she also sang backup with Marv Johnson too. Around the time she started working at Ford, '68 or '69 Martha started getting pains in her chest that hurt her when singing. She worked on the line and painted cars, and did other things. In 1975 she relocated to California. Martha Ann passed away in 2002. She never got married. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Prophonics 2029 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I thought I have seen copy's of both these records Martha and Cressa on the same label? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I thought I have seen copy's of both these records Martha and Cressa on the same label? Never seen a Cressa Watson but could've sworn I'd seen a label listing with it listed many moons ago. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Never seen a Cressa Watson but could've sworn I'd seen a label listing with it listed many moons ago. I getting mixed up now.Is "Salvation" - CRESA (one "s") Watson on yellow Charay? Or "Sweet temptation" one "s" Cressa? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 On 01/07/2011 at 08:25, chalky said: Never seen a Cressa Watson but could've sworn I'd seen a label listing with it listed many moons ago. 35 13 J. Frank Wilson - Last Kiss '69 / Black Car 14 Riels - There'll Be An Angel / Tuxedo Junction 15 Castlemen - Donna's Dream / Long Black Veil 16 Florida Deep Six - I Don't Wanna Cry / Start From Here 17 Elite - One Potato / Two Potato 18 Bill Mack - San Antonio Rose / Blue Jean 18 Bill Mack - Six Big Men / Blue 18 Bill Mack - San Antonio Rose / ? 19 Canadian Rogues - Oop-Poop-A-Doop / Keep In Touch 20 Larry & The Blue Notes - She'll Love Me / Everybody Needs Somebody 20 Larry & The Blue Notes - She'll Love Me / The Phantom 20 Larry & The Blue Notes - She'll Love Me / Talk About Love 20 Mark V - She'll Love Me / The Phantom 21 Dawning Villagers - A Girl Named Shea / ? 22 Goodsons - Twisted Mind / Alpine 23 Howard Crockett - Star / Word 23 Howard Crockett - Cross Eyed Mary / Strike A Match 24 ? 25 James Duncan - Waitin' On That Train / My Baby's Back 26 Amos Milburn - Gloria / The Last One 26 Amos Milburn Jr. - Look At A Fool / ? 27 Misfits - Work Song / Turn On Your Love Light 28 Wyld - Fly By Nighter / If I Had It 28 Wyld - Fly By Nighter / Lost One 28 Wyld - Lost One / Know A Lot About Love 28 Wyld - Lost One / Alley Oop 29 ? 30 Wayne Rozell - Paper Clown / ? 31 Elite - My Confusion / I'll Come To You 32 ? 33 Danes - To Make Me A Man / Lost Love 33 Danes - Little Summer Girl / Just A Dream 33 Sirs - Wow / Sixteen Candles 33 Bruce Channel - Hey! Baby '67 / Tipped Out 33 Bruce Channel - Hey! Baby '67 / My Baby 33 Bruce Channel - Baby Please Come Back / Baby Heartbreak 34 Dirte Four - On The Move / Hang Up 34 Dirte Four - On The Move / I Want To Give You All My Love 35 Jimmy Stewart - Ann / Patsy 35 Martha Starr - Sweet Temptation / Little Girl Blue 36 Rick & The Keens - You Can't Go / Rose Marie 37 Nat Kelly - Looking Back / Down the Pike 37 2 + 2 - Fact That I'm Back / I'll Take My Chance 38 Willie Hobbs - On The Move / Gloria 39 Carolyn Sullivan - Do You Believe In Magic? / Alpine Winter 40 Wayne & Wise Men - Take My Advice / Cinda 40 Electric Love - This Seat Is Saved / Gotta Get Back To My Baby 41 ? 42 ? 43 ? 44 Larry & The Blue Notes - There's No Other / You Cheated,You Lied 44 Larry & The Blue Notes - In And Out / Love Is A Beautiful Thing 44 Larry & The Blue Notes - In And Out / I'll Be True To You 45 Art & English - Why Did He Go Away / If'N 46 ? 47 Gene Summers - The Clown / Green Eyed Monster 47 Electric Love - This Seat is Saved / Gotta Get Back To My Baby 48 Paul - Happy Music / Hey, You Walk On Me 49 Sue Marin - Alpine Winter / Happiness Across The Street 50 Ray Roberts - Baby / ? 51 ? 52 ? 53 ? 54 ? 55 Mitch & The Mistys - Gonna Leave / Hey Baby 56 Elite - Bye, Bye Baby / All I Want Is You 57 Those Guys - I Want To Hold You Hand / Teresa 57 Those Guys - You Bet It Is / Teresa 58 Uptowners - She's Mine / Down The Pike 58 Mitch & Mistys - Patsy / She's So Fine 59 ? 60 Pic & Bill - What Would I Do / What Does It Take 60 Pic & Bill - What Would I Do / Patsy 60 Pic & Bill - Patsy / Over The Mountain 60 Pic & Bill - Patsy / Together Till The End Of Time 60 Pic & Bill - How Many Times / Funny How Time Slips Away 60 Pic & Bill - How Many Times / I Love You, Baby 61 Billy Mills - Monkey Time / Under The Pines 62 Paul & Paula - Hey! / Walk Through The World With Me 63 Orville Couch - Gone / If You Really Want Me To I'll Go 63 Orville Couch - Patsy / ? 64 Texans - Patsy / ? 65 ? 66 Mitch & The Mistys - I Lost My Head / Let It Be Me 67 Pic & Bill - It's Not You / All I Want Is You 68 Upper Class - Can't Wait / Help Me Find A Way 69 ? 70 ? 71 Rick & The Keens - I Cry / The Hippie 72 Jimmy & The Mustangs - Ruins Of Time / Summertime, Summertime 72 Jimmy & The Mustangs - Try To Love Me / The Ruins of Time 73 Pic & Bill - This Is It / Nobody But My Baby 74 Fiery Spartans - Cool / Talk About Love (same recording as Pic & Bill) 75 Ron-Dels - 100 Pounds Of Honey / Hey! Baby 76 ? 77 ? 78 ? 79 Ray Roberts - Alpine Winter / Together Till The End Of Time 80 Patti Johnson - Walking After Midnight / ? 80 J. Frank Wilson & Cavaliers - The Clown / Cool 81 Upper Class - Renee / Wow 82 C. Vaughn Lesley - I Need Someone / Together Till End Of Time 83 ? 84 ? 85 Mark II - Alpine Winter / Dead 85 Mark II - Dead / Bread And Soul 85 Mark II - Wipe Out / Soul Of A Man 86 J. Frank Wilson - Day Before Our Wedding / Boy Lonely 86 J. Frank Wilson - Darling / The Clown 86 Uptowners - She's Mine / Down The Pike 87 Robert Thomas - Salvation / Soul Of A Man 88 Nat & John - Pretty Woman / Alpine Winter 88 Pendergast - Wow / Break My Mind 88 Pendergast - Wow / Sheila 89 The Men From Macon - Soul Of A Man / East Of Eden 89 The Men From Macon - Soul Of A Man / Fire Lighter 89 The Men From Macon - Soul Of A Man (Vocal) / Soul Of A Man (Instrumental) 90 cresa watson - salvation - your no good - charay 91 Cresa Watson - Alpine Winter / These Boots Are Made For Walking 91 Cresa Watson - Dead / Alpine Winter 91 Cresa Watson - A Woman Is A Nice Thing/These Boots Are Made For Walking 92 Leon Rausch - Last One / ? 92 Nat & John - Louie Louie / ? 93 Chili Ray - Moon Mouse / ? 94 Paul - Lollipops, Teardrops / Down The Pike 95 Johnny & The Mark V - Sands Of Malibu / Down The Pike 96 Country Dick Lightfoot - Miner, Sixty Niner / ? 97 Phil Watson - Jan / Walk About 97 Phil Watson -Have You Lost Your Children America? / Jan 98 ? 99 Pic & Bill - Talk About Love / A Man Without A Woman 99 Pic & Bill - Talk About Love / For The Good Times 100 Gene Summers & The Platinum Fog - Hot Pants / Young Voices Of Children 100 The Men From Macon - Salvation (inst.) / Black Velvet 100 ROBERT THOMAS WITH THE SIX FEET UNDER - SALVATION - CHARAY 100 fish and chips - octiopus's garden - tough - charay 101 Rita Lee - Salvation / So Ho 101 Ronnie Kelly - Tough / ? 101 MEN FROM MACON - SALVATION - CHARAY 102 Bruce & Patty - Thanks / ? 103 Danes - Lollipops, Teardrops / Teresa 103 Danes - Just A Dream / Little Summer Girl 104 ? 105 ? 106 Charlie Brown - Carla / Pt.2. 107 ? 108 Bobby Wayne Loftis - Back Together Once Again / So Good For Me 112 Men Of Sugar Hill - Calvin / ? 227 The Cattlemen - Black Mountain Rag / Down Draft 303 Danes - Little Summer Girl / Just a Dream (33) 304 Linda & Damon - Forever / Always Lonely 700 Cresa Watson - Dead / Alpine Winter (91) 701 Jimmy Stewart - Patsy / You Just Need to Love 1001 scotty mckay and the jones men - high on life - you realy want me to i'll go 1003 l b gibson - treat her right - ? 1004 Scotty McKay & the Jomo Men - High on Life / If You Really Want Me To I'll Go 1005 Bruce Channel / Paul & Paula - Hey Baby / Hey Paula 1009 Ronnie walters - its getting better - who am i - charay 1010 Sunny & The Carolina Tikis - Teen Angel / Rap 1010 the carolina tikis - she had wings to fly - wipeout Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Anyone got a clip of "These boots are made for walking" - Cressa Watson.? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've seen the listing Ken and recently...... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) 'Right I aint been paying attention !!!, I love the 'Sweet Temptation' track that Ady has been playing at the 100 Club for years, I believe the version that Ady plays is the Cressa Watson version ?. However there are versions by both Martha Starr & Ward Burton, I know Ward Burton was released on Panther, but can someone pse post the details off the other releases, although I'm assuming Cressa Watson is unissued ?. I also have Tobi Lark in my head in connection with all of this too, but wondered if it had been covered up as TL at some point ?.' Above is my original post & just to stop things getting confusing & to get back to the original topic here is what has surfaced so far: Martha Starr - Sweet Temptation/ Little Girl Blue - Charay (35). Cressa Watson - Sweet Temptation - ? Previously unreleased (?) until appearing on the LP '20 great unknown soul classics'. Altnough there is a reference to the Cressa Watson version having a release on Charay (?) on the Soul Strutter blog site , however the supplied Charay discography doesnt list it. Soooooooo......... Can anyone pse post a label scan from the Martha Starr release & a sound file please. Could anyone pse post the Cressa Watson version from the LP (Are there any liner notes with the LP that might shed some light ?). Does anyone have any information that would confirm Cressa Watson having been released on Charay & if possible with label scan & sound file to compare whether the same as the LP or Martha Starr versions. And to stop further confusion, my initial thoughts with regard to Martha Starr having been covered up as Tobi Lark were correct. Thank you everyone for your contributions so far Best Russ Edited July 1, 2011 by Russ Vickers Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest BIG H Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 first heard this on a tape i got from that soul legend Tef back in late 80's, he had it covered up as Rula Lenska Harry Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ady Croasdell Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Ted Carrol licensed the Cressa Watson named version from Major Bill in the 80s and that's who Bill must have put on the tape box or alternatively remembered it as being by (or Ted got 'em mixed up!) it wasn't a big deal to either of them, just a nice odd soul song to stick on an LP. It's assumed more importance since it's become popular. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Ted Carrol licensed the Cressa Watson named version from Major Bill in the 80s and that's who Bill must have put on the tape box or alternatively remembered it as being by (or Ted got 'em mixed up!) it wasn't a big deal to either of them, just a nice odd soul song to stick on an LP. It's assumed more importance since it's become popular. Thank you Ady. Best Russ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
KevH Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) Here's the sleeve notes for the LP Russ... Here's a real treat for all soul fans.20 steaming soul goodies on 1 album.! Side One concentrates on uptempo dance tracks including several treid and tested "Northern" favourites.On side 2 we get down - real low for some emotional,drama packed Deep Soul performances.We've tried and we hope we've succeeded in getting that real soul feeling flowing from start to finish on this album. If you would like more of the same,or have any constructive criticisms to offer,please write.(Sorry we cant reply to individual letters,but thanks to everyone who's written in about other albums in the Cascade series). Lindi Waters. (NB: You may notice slight surface noise on one or two tracks.The master tapes of a few of the rarer tracks have been destroyed and we have had to dub from disc.) Side 1.. Millionaires - And the rains came Mary Love - Hey Stoney face Vernon Garrett - Slow and easy Al King - Get lost Millionaires - Aint that soul 6/ Cressa Watson - Sweet temptation Mary Love - Dance,children dance ZZ Hill - You cheated and you lied Jackie Shaine - You are my sunshine Vernon Garrett - If i could turn back the hands of time. Cascade Records 48-50 Steele Road London NW10 7AS. Mastered by Bob Jones at CTS....( you lurking on here DR.Bob?) Track 6 ,only credits to Major Bill Smith. Edited July 3, 2011 by KevH Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Wrongcrowd Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Also, how come Martha Starr ended up recording a Major Bill tune ?. Best Russ She spent some time down Texas way, and teamed up with Moses Dillard for a couple of tunes. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Russ Vickers Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) She spent some time down Texas way, and teamed up with Moses Dillard for a couple of tunes. I was under the impression that the Moses Dillard stuff was recorded in the Carolinas before she moved to Detroit ?...I cant find any reference any where to her having recorded in Texas, although she must have done (?)....... Thank you for the information........but still a mystery to me ???. I think Cressa Watson & Martha Starr are the same & that the information on the LP is incorrect...........oh bugger, theres still the mention of the release in the discog oh poo !!! Best Russ Edited July 4, 2011 by Russ Vickers 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Blackpoolsoul Posted November 23, 2019 Share Posted November 23, 2019 Why am I always late to the party Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Paul Capon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I’ve listened to both Cressa and Martha and yes deffo the same vocal. The Cressa is clearly a badly edited copy of Martha with a clear chop at about 1:20 in removing the 30 second instrumental break. Martha is almost 3 mins, ‘Cressa’ is about 30 sec shorter Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post Corbett80 Posted February 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) Think Martha Starr is one of the finest records ever made. Haunting, sublime and ultimate soul music. Always sounds perfect echoing round the 100 Club too. Ward's take ain't shabby either!!! Just a great song. Edited February 13, 2020 by Corbett80 4 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Julianb Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Think a Ward Burton sold for $2500 last week Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Benji Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 On 03/02/2020 at 18:25, Paul Capon said: I’ve listened to both Cressa and Martha and yes deffo the same vocal. The Cressa is clearly a badly edited copy of Martha with a clear chop at about 1:20 in removing the 30 second instrumental break. Martha is almost 3 mins, ‘Cressa’ is about 30 sec shorter You're spot on. Cressa definitely edited. Question is (at least for me) who edited it? Surely not the folks who did the compilation. Because, why bother to edit out 30 sec of a song? I guess the master tape they used was already edited. What do you think? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
jukeboxgeorge Posted August 18, 2023 Share Posted August 18, 2023 Although this topic has endured for a dozen years, it may be worth another look. A YouTube for Ward Burton - Sweet Temptation has replies by the songwriter @willhammond5265 (look under @thegreatmarkjohnson 11 years ago) here: https://www.youtube <dot> com/watch?v=nf45rvjoaLo "Martha Starr and Cressa Watson are the same. It's the same record with just a different artist name. I don't know where the Cressa Watson thing came from, but listen closely and you will hear they are exactly the same. I actually gave her (Carolyn Sullivan) the name "Martha Starr." I wrote and produced both the Martha Starr and Ward Burton versions..... but have no idea why the Cressa version came about. Just crooked "hanky panky" stuff that goes on in the record business. There is NO Cressa Watson." Note that this comment refers to Cressa, not Cresa. More importantly, it suggests that Martha Starr - spelled with two Rs - is Carolyn Sullivan, who recorded on Charay and then on Soft (also picked up by Philips). Although there isn't an exact data on this Martha Starr 45, Will Hammond filed the copyright for Sweet Temptation on 13 April 1965. Also note Chalky's comment about her sister Martha Star posted June 30, 2011: "In 1964 Martha went to Michigan..." This would indicate that Martha Star was not in South Carolina when Martha Starr recorded. There is also no mention by the sister of recording with Moses Dillard in 1971. In addition, Carolyn Sullivan's 45 on Soft / Philips was arranged by Moses Dillard, and Moses Dillard also recorded with Martha Starr on Awake (also released on Shout). There's also a comment by Joe Huffman (who co-wrote "Dead" with Moses Dillard): “I remember Moses Dillard brought in this one girl, Carolyn Sullivan. He said she had a great voice but he didn’t really have a song for her. Well, he started pumping on this thing on the organ, this rhythmic thing and I spewed out some words. About fifteen minutes later we had a song. We were working with a guy in Texas and he shot it out and Phillips Records picked it up. It went to number one in San Francisco for like six weeks.” Source: https://markfivearchive <dot> com/2021/01/18/moses-dillard/ These comments seem to indicate that Martha Star on Thelma was not Martha Starr, and that Carolyn Sullivan was Martha Starr. 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Tlscapital Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 (edited) We're still to see a real Martha Starr 'Sweet Tempt' on Charay C35 if ever to establish its presumed 'rare' existence. The only imaging of it on Datcogs and 45Cat.com both share the same fake Low-Fi black and white DIY 'imaging'. The only showing vinyl pressings were made later in small numbers post 2000 along with few following carvers. It's my gut feeling that this Martha Starr (Carolyn Sullivan really) cut remained unissued prior the acetate find. Then came the unearthed reels. Or is it the other way around that prompted the making of the 'acetate' ? Then this Martha Starr whole recording really confusingly sounds Detroit. Like Dave Hamilton stuffs. Obviously there's a Texas - Detroit connection but it's not the first time we have those con-X-shuns. Covering Carolyn Sullivan's identity behind a Martha Starr with 2 'R' is not misleading innocently. A lot of very 'troubled waters' around this 'Sweet Temptation' wonderful track nonetheless. Edited August 19, 2023 by Tlscapital Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 (edited) Well I'm not so sure Carolyn Sullivan is Martha Starr listening to them 44 minutes ago, Tlscapital said: We're still to see a real Martha Starr 'Sweet Tempt' on Charay C35 if ever to establish its presumed 'rare' existence. The only imaging of it on Datcogs and 45Cat.com both share the same fake Low-Fi black and white DIY 'imaging'. The only showing vinyl pressings were made later in small numbers post 2000 along with few following carvers. It's my gut feeling that this Martha Starr (Carolyn Sullivan really) cut remained unissued prior the acetate find. Then came the unearthed reels. Or is it the other way around that prompted the making of the 'acetate' ? Like the Ward Burton is this Martha Starr really confusingly sounds Detroit. Like Dave Hamilton stuffs. Obviously there's a Texas - Detroit connection but it's not the first time we have those con-X-shuns. Covering Carolyn Sullivan's identity behind a Martha Starr with 2 'R' is not misleading innocently. Martha deos exists, Ady plays it off a vinyl 45. Cresa doesn't except on the budget Lp. After listening to Carolyn Sullivan and Martha Starr I not so sure they are the same person either. Edited August 19, 2023 by Chalky Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dobber Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 I did a similar post to this some years back,I concluded that the Martha and cressa are the same track,and after Carl fortnum(I’m sure) posted a pic of his original 45 on charay copy of Martha Starr! I also thought this Martha Starr was the same as the girl on thelma! But maybe not! Bit cheaky though just adding and extra R to maybe gain extra exposure? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Tlscapital Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 12 minutes ago, Chalky said: Well I'm not so sure Carolyn Sullivan is Martha Starr listening to them Martha deos exists, Ady plays it off a vinyl 45. Cresa doesn't except on the budget Lp. After listening to Carolyn Sullivan and Martha Starr I not so sure they are the same person either. OK but what vinyl is that Adey has ? As I said a few were pressed on carvers white labeled with a Charay logo. How come no images of real ones at all anywhere ! Just mentioned as in 'rumored' here and there. Another 'legend' record ? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dobber Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 21 minutes ago, Tlscapital said: OK but what vinyl is that Adey has ? As I said a few were pressed on carvers white labeled with a Charay logo. How come no images of real ones at all anywhere ! Just mentioned as in 'rumored' here and there. Another 'legend' record ? I’ve just been looking through old posts,I can’t find the pic that Carl fortnum put up of Martha Starr,it was a pic with this and jd Bryant and don gardner! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Tlscapital Posted August 19, 2023 Share Posted August 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, Dobber said: I’ve just been looking through old posts,I can’t find the pic that Carl fortnum put up of Martha Starr,it was a pic with this and jd Bryant and don gardner! Rings a bell... Vague memory of it too... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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