Just A Thought....about What 'soul' Is Or Isn't

[Guest Brooky]

I was surfing the Music Net....stumbled on this and I remember it well (1980) although it completely passed me by as a Soul Record - I was still full of Wigan Casino at the time although it was in its death throws. .

It would never be played at any Soul Venue and rightly so I suppose...but could any of us deny that it is true Soul Music.

Put me in mind of Almeta Lattimore....different time (but only 4 years) , different place.....but both tunes and delivery are wonderful in my view.

Compare and contrast.....would love to hear views of SS's.......

.

Almeta Lattimore - These Memories

Odyssey-If You're Looking For A Way Out

Not saying it should, but why woud it never be accepted....what aspect of it disqualifies it from our concept of 'Soul Music'?

Mandrill's 'Too Late' was produced in 1978 so it can't just be the period, can it? Also, slow and mid-tempo numbers have never been an issue....unless it's the 'Space 1999' outfits...well, what is it?

Best

Simon

Edited April 20, 2012 by Brooky

[Prophonics 2029]

Nice songs, think it depends if its for indoors or the dance floor Simon.

[Chalky]

It's not always clear what the video is and as many use a mobile device and a mobile plan and have to watch what they stream can I ask that you please put the title of the videos anyone posts and who it is. It might encourage more participation from members.Thanks.

[Ged Parker]

Chalks:

These Memories - Almeta Lattimore vs Odyssey If you're Looking For A Way Out.

Both soulful to me (in fact I have both). Just Odyssey is tarred with the 'disco' brush I guess.

[Chalky]

I know what they are Ged, thanks anyway. Others don't always though and if they can't stream the videos en they won't participate in a topic.

[Jordirip]

I was surfing the Music Net....stumbled on this and I remember it well (1980) although it completely passed me by as a Soul Record - I was still full of Wigan Casino at the time although it was in its death throws. .

It would never be played at any Soul Venue and rightly so I suppose...but could any of us deny that it is true Soul Music.

Put me in mind of Almeta Lattimore....different time (but only 4 years) , different place.....but both tunes and delivery are wonderful in my view.

Compare and contrast.....would love to hear views of SS's.......

.

Not saying it should, but why woud it never be accepted....what aspect of it disqualifies it from our concept of 'Soul Music'?

Mandrill's 'Too Late' was produced in 1978 so it can't just be the period, can it? Also, slow and mid-tempo numbers have never been an issue....unless it's the 'Space 1999' outfits...well, what is it?

Best

Simon

If the Odyssey track was on an obscure, rare 45 then it may have been played ( although it's far too slow for any Northern dancefloor action). Part of going out to Northern or Rare soul events is / was to here records you wouldn't hear in a nightclub, although there were always exceptions to that such as Kenny Burkes "Let somebody love you" which was mainstream and still a Wigan biggie, but it was much more uptempo than Odyssey.

Jordi

[jocko]

I was surfing the Music Net....stumbled on this and I remember it well (1980) although it completely passed me by as a Soul Record - I was still full of Wigan Casino at the time although it was in its death throws. .

It would never be played at any Soul Venue and rightly so I suppose...but could any of us deny that it is true Soul Music.

Put me in mind of Almeta Lattimore....different time (but only 4 years) , different place.....but both tunes and delivery are wonderful in my view.

Compare and contrast.....would love to hear views of SS's.......

Not saying it should, but why woud it never be accepted....what aspect of it disqualifies it from our concept of 'Soul Music'?

Mandrill's 'Too Late' was produced in 1978 so it can't just be the period, can it? Also, slow and mid-tempo numbers have never been an issue....unless it's the 'Space 1999' outfits...well, what is it?

Best

Simon

I suspect when you say Soul venue you mean Northern venue, using them as being completely synonymous is akin to assuming Donald Trump is about to join the Green party (Anglophiles may have to Google Trump and WindFarms to get this analogy, although you may want to add a few words to your Google to avoid embarrassing and smelly results!)

Odyssey has been played in Soul Venues since a new release, I suspect; it certainly was in Glasgow and London in early 80's, although no coincidence I suspect both areas were far more into new Black music than old dusties we were dancing round our Johnson's container to. I have also heard it dropped, to great effect, in a House set by some American DJ's, and possibly one half Manc Half Scottish one. And it sounded superb. In reality some of the American dj's House sets of the early 90's were much more in tune with Soul music than many Northern DJ's!

I think, sadly, obscurity, is the deciding factor in the examples you choose, both Almeta and Mandrill, and this and their more traditional beat is a far bigger factor in being adopted by the Northern scene than their incredibly soulful delivery.

Great to hear you like both, for me judge by your ears whether it's a soul record and your feet and ears if it is a good Northern record, first one should be easier to get right although often not, and you wont go far wrong.

Chalks:

These Memories - Almeta Lattimore vs Odyssey If you're Looking For A Way Out.

Both soulful to me (in fact I have both). Just Odyssey is tarred with the 'disco' brush I guess.

I probably think commercial more than disco to be honest Ged, and probably for being played out at a Northern venue a relevant distinction for that time, however as you say two cracking records of their time, danced to both in very differing circumstances, and enjoyed both. Although neither is the artists best record IMHO obviously.

And as for the dreaded disco word, for me great disco is another subsection of the wonderful world soul world, its just so much tosh gets paraded under disco term, with the Norvern definition being akin to BBC4 's educated guess.

I love disco, and I think I may get that T Shirt made for Cleethorpes, and again a sweeping generalisation but I think the people that get disco better than most, from a quality point, are good House dj's and that is because they see both as just a continuation of the evolution of the music we call soul!

[Winnie :-)]

I was surfing the Music Net....stumbled on this and I remember it well (1980) although it completely passed me by as a Soul Record - I was still full of Wigan Casino at the time although it was in its death throws. .

It would never be played at any Soul Venue and rightly so I suppose...but could any of us deny that it is true Soul Music.

Put me in mind of Almeta Lattimore....different time (but only 4 years) , different place.....but both tunes and delivery are wonderful in my view.

Compare and contrast.....would love to hear views of SS's.......

.

Not saying it should, but why woud it never be accepted....what aspect of it disqualifies it from our concept of 'Soul Music'?

Mandrill's 'Too Late' was produced in 1978 so it can't just be the period, can it? Also, slow and mid-tempo numbers have never been an issue....unless it's the 'Space 1999' outfits...well, what is it?

Best

Simon

I think they're both beautiful records and I'd dance to either, having said that neither are out and out dance floor friendly in the traditional sense. Odyssey would probably be considered too 'mainstream' to be played, but I remember in the Cleethorpes modern room one year, ''I'm doing fine now'' was played and it went down an absolute storm. I've always wondered why Almeta Lattimore didnt actually chart, such a quality record.

[Pete S]

Odyssey is a beautiful record but it's too slow to dance to and made the top 10, hence it not being played at rare soul venues. I remain unsurprised.

[boba]

Here is an awesome odyssey record from the same period that someone should not be ashamed to play out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vso6o8qshJ0

The track you posted isn't only too slow but it's pop-ish (almost country-ish). It sounds like they were trying to make a pop hit. So it actually is less soulful than many of their other cuts.

[Jordirip]

Here is an awesome odyssey record from the same period that someone should not be ashamed to play out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vso6o8qshJ0

The track you posted isn't only too slow but it's pop-ish (almost country-ish). It sounds like they were trying to make a pop hit. So it actually is less soulful than many of their other cuts.

I used to always play this out, not at Northern related events though, but at house parties or club / rare groove nights etc. Phyllis Hyman's version is really nice too.

Jordi

[Geoff]

I used to always play this out, not at Northern related events though, but at house parties or club / rare groove nights etc. Phyllis Hyman's version is really nice too.

Jordi

This is excellent imo. Surely we're mature enough to enjoy this being played at a Modern Soul night, I could imagine Soul Sam playing, he played Native New Yorker by them at Cleethorpes on the Sunday night in the Modern room, either last year or the year before. My personal favourite uptempo song by Odyssey is Inside Out, great record imo.

[Pete S]

I could imagine Soul Sam playing, he played Native New Yorker by them at Cleethorpes on the Sunday night in the Modern room,

Thats the equivalent of someone playing Footsee at Stoke, surely.

Yeah let's all play chart hits, it's so ironic.

[Geoff]

In my opinion there is no question that If You're Looking For A Way Out and These Memories are soul music, but not right for a classic Northern Soul night. Both songs have meaning for me.

In 1980 I was made redundant when the London Evening News closed, a horrible shock to me, I'd never been out of work before, I'm sure loads of people on here know what I mean. And I do know the situation now is a million times worse than it was then, but it's always horrible. Naturally I was worried about money, etc, but my wife went and bought me Odyssey's If You're Looking For A Way Out and Barbra Streisand's Woman In Love LP to cheer me up as she knew I liked them. That's the sort of person she was. I've not played the Odyssey record for ages, but it's a lovely song, certainly could be played as a Modern Soul night ender. Or at least I think so. If I get a collector's spot at the MonuMental weekender might play it myself.

As for These Memories, not sure what to say. I only heard if for the first time in 2002 I think, loved it straight away. When my wife died I thought of using it at the funeral as the last record, but I knew she didn't like it at all, thought it was "stupid", so it wasn't right to play it there. But it's still my favourite record, and when I just played the link above it still made me cry, thought I was over that. It was usually the last record played at MonuMental Soul when it was at the Britannia, and is to me the most emotional and soulful record ever made.

Totally agree with Jocko about Disco, as in all genres of music there's good and bad, down to personal opinion, but do lose the will to live when people class all records after December 1969 as Disco.

[Sebastian]

Here is an awesome odyssey record from the same period that someone should not be ashamed to play out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vso6o8qshJ0

GREAT tune. I play their "Inside Out" out from time to time as well:

[Geoff]

Thats the equivalent of someone playing Footsee at Stoke, surely.

Yeah let's all play chart hits, it's so ironic.

It was on the Sunday night, it's a party night.

[jocko]

Thats the equivalent of someone playing Footsee at Stoke, surely.

Yeah let's all play chart hits, it's so ironic.

No, it's more like someone playing Tams Be Young at Lifeline, which as a one off I think would be both brave and work well.

What would spoil it would be watching all the sheep on here on the Monday, having read about how great it sounded in the Lookback and putting a want up so they could play it their "soul" night the following week! Ala Ain't No Mountain High Enough at 100 Club.

Like anything it's all about the time and the place and their are certain times and places and certain states of mind where I would rather hear NNY than I'm gone!!

[Guest Matt Male]

I never heard Odyssey anywhere in the 80s but at mainstream nightclubs for the smooch at the end.

[Len]

These Memories defo a record that can be played at soul nights or nighters. I'll be playing it out this weekend at Soul in The Bowl at Rushden (Hope that's not seen as a plug as it's relevant to the subject)

All the best,

Len.

Edited April 20, 2012 by LEN

[KevH]

Odyssey - soulful pop music.Played at discos in the main.Could be heard anywhere in the 80's.From theme pubs to local grab a granny night.Ok for chill out's etc at the moment i suppose.Horses for courses."NNY" is a perfect example of pop disco.Like that one.

Almeta Lattimore is ok.

Philistine Kev.

[boba]

What are the implications of this thread -- does deciding whether something is soul or not determine whether it is playable?

In the late 70s going into the 80s there was a sort of convergence between rock / aor / pop / soul. Soul groups like EWF and Kool and the Gang had huge pop hits and white artists like Gino Vanelli blurred the line in the other direction. There isn't a hard line on a lot of music saying whether it is soul or pop.

That said, in this era, to get music that is more "pure" soul, you usually have to go to more indie labels since they were more outside of the major label productions. But there also were some very soulful major label productions and stuff that was produced for or licensed into major labels.

When I used to do this other show on my radio station, this woman would always call in and request Eddie Rabbit "Suspicions". She said that when it came out it got played on Black radio and nobody knew he was a white country singer.

Some guy keeps calling up my radio show and requesting Benny Mardones "into the night" (along with Brenda and the Tabulations). I'm definitely not going to play it but I can definitely see the similarity to some of the indie 80s group soul that I play.