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Ranking Johnny Manship? Again?

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HI ALL Trust me when I say, John is OK, and even thoe I am skint, their is no envy, well a little bit?

Lat year I sold my small collection of PYE accitates, mainly CAMEO PARKWAY, PICCADILLY, PYE INT, But I am totally bemused in the price john got for Billy Stewart Summmertime? this must be hyped up, as at most it is not indemand or a differant cut? , then a copy of BLUES & SOUL SELLS £82, FOR #4? PLEASE TELL ME, How this achieved that price? DAVE

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Quiet a few of my non soul friends rate Billy so I can see a hi demand off the soul scene.

But there isn't. It's a track everyone's got, it's not even a demo - I'd much sooner have the demo than that acetate.

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I remember my Ex Mother in law bring a little record box round for me & it had all the usual crap but there was an emidisc of 'Glad all over' with hand written credits by the Searchers (hoe the f**k did she have that??) anyway got a fiver for it at a record fair at Cleethorpes, dealer told me there were loads of them (Think he may have had me there :wicked: .

Swifty :thumbsup:

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I remember my Ex Mother in law bring a little record box round for me & it had all the usual crap but there was an emidisc of 'Glad all over' with hand written credits by the Searchers (hoe the f**k did she have that??) anyway got a fiver for it at a record fair at Cleethorpes, dealer told me there were loads of them (Think he may have had me there :wicked: .

Swifty :thumbsup:

Not the Dave Clark 5?

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years ago i got some acetates from a junk shop, one was by blodwyn pig (i think) ended up chucking them away as they were folk music rubbish,

15 years later looking in record collector ,as young people say OMG ! one went for 300quid, just in case i checked the bin but it had gone

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Got an autographed UK pye acetate of Marvin Gayes I Heard It Through The Grapevine.... Wonder why on Pye?

Don't know - I had one the other way round - Jackie Trent's Pye recording You Baby on an Emidisc acetate*, not a Pye acetate

* a real one I mean

Edited by Pete S

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Got an autographed UK pye acetate of Marvin Gayes I Heard It Through The Grapevine.... Wonder why on Pye?

Was this not something to do with 'Ready Steady Go', summat to do with performing rights, there are Redifusion acetates of Motown material too I think ?.....maybe I have dreamt this or confusing two different things, but it might jog someones memory.....hope it helps anyway.

Russ

Edited by Russ Vickers

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Was this not something to do with 'Ready Steady Go', summat to do with performing rights, there are Redifusion acetates of Motown material too I think ?.....maybe I have dreamt this or confusing two different things, but it might jog someones memory.....hope it helps anyway.

Russ

In that instance it would be way too late to have any connection with Ready Steady Go but I sold a couple of acetates last year which were obtained from the lead dancer on RSG and they contained issued and unissued material - I think the groups were Twice As Much and the Dave Clark 5 - anyway these were Emidiscs with RSG referenced on the label.

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Surely acetates only have value if a track is unavailable elsewhere - e.g. funny by Sam Dees - only know of two. But when a record is released what is the point? there might be hundreds of acetates - they might acetate copies of other acetates - there is absolutely no provenance to most of them and you can't play them because they will wear out !

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Surely acetates only have value if a track is unavailable elsewhere - e.g. funny by Sam Dees - only know of two. But when a record is released what is the point? there might be hundreds of acetates - they might acetate copies of other acetates - there is absolutely no provenance to most of them and you can't play them because they will wear out !

Many acetates are different takes. Are you saying 100's of acetates of one track? I doubt that, not a studio acetate anyway, usually just two or three, depending on how many takes they did to cut the record.

As for wearing out, I know of acetates that have been played for over 20 years and still haven't worn out.

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Many acetates are different takes. Are you saying 100's of acetates of one track? I doubt that, not a studio acetate anyway, usually just two or three, depending on how many takes they did to cut the record.

As for wearing out, I know of acetates that have been played for over 20 years and still haven't worn out.

Oops I'm wrong on both counts sorry !

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Oops I'm wrong on both counts sorry !

No I don't think you are, the Pye group acetates are actually advance demos pressed just before they could get the vinyl demos done and feature identical material to that which was released, therefore I've never rated them as being particularly collectable myself. They have a generic Pye label and then handwritten details as to which subsidiary it will be issued on.

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No I don't think you are, the Pye group acetates are actually advance demos pressed just before they could get the vinyl demos done and feature identical material to that which was released, therefore I've never rated them as being particularly collectable myself. They have a generic Pye label and then handwritten details as to which subsidiary it will be issued on.

Are they actually acetates Pete, lacquer over metal middle and would they have done 100's of these for each??

I'm talking about the obscure acetates cut in the studio during the session and then filed by the company. Usually just the one or two for each take as far as I was aware.

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Are they actually acetates Pete, lacquer over metal middle and would they have done 100's of these for each??

I'm talking about the obscure acetates cut in the studio during the session and then filed by the company. Usually just the one or two for each take as far as I was aware.

They are proper metal acetates, yes. They'd have done a handful to go to the most important outlets, a kind of emergency pre release copy, I would have thought have a dozen tops, but this was just temporary until the vinyl demo was pressed. They're not like alternate studio cuts or anything exciting.

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They are proper metal acetates, yes. They'd have done a handful to go to the most important outlets, a kind of emergency pre release copy, I would have thought have a dozen tops, but this was just temporary until the vinyl demo was pressed. They're not like alternate studio cuts or anything exciting.

So different to what I'm talking about? I've never collected UK material.

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So different to what I'm talking about? I've never collected UK material.

No the difference is that these aren't alternate takes. Those would have come earlier in the recording process.

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I'm sure some acetates were pre demo cut's as i remember reading a thing by John Peel saying these acetates were sent to the BBC for immediate play (if possible)and there were loads in that great bun fight when the BBC sold off it's old stock some years ago.Regards Simon.

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HI ALL.....Not sure if I got the answer I was looking for? or was I just putting 'the cat in with the pigions'..proberly!

As for the subject of acitates, they fall in 2 groups for many UK collectores, the type 1, is exactly the same as what was issued, these are worth more than a stock copy, but less than the DEMO Copy as a rule of thumb,

Type 2 are the alternative cuts that are in very small numbers, a good example are the BEATLES as their stuff always make money,

type 1 are rare when the groups contract fails but the songs were compleated, PHIL SPELLMAN in LONDON is the main man for obscure UK 60s stuff, and if it is the right stuff, he pays well for most stuff,

The record John sold is at most worth £20, and talking with top UK colector, Mick Smith, he states what we already no, however, he did add that BILLY STEWART has a big following around the world, and sometimes we forget this with certain artists? well here is what you should be looking for! DAVE

post-13241-0-03095700-1336458371_thumb.j

post-13241-0-43694800-1336458708_thumb.j

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How come that White Atlantic demo of Solomon Burke - Cry to Me is currently £500! Am I missing something here?

Separate topic about that one running.

None of us have a clue.

I'm wondering if it was a deliberate wind up.

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Acetates served a number of purposes. They might be cut after a session, so that those involved had a reference copy: a personal copy for the performers, perhaps. They would also be used at meetings where the record company's execs would discuss what should and shouldn't get released next.

And, exactly as Pete says, they could also be used as super-advanced 'advance promo' copies, so that companies could give DJs exclusives and at the same time get advance exposure for a 45 before it was officially released. If sufficient DJs didn't like a track they heard on acetate, it's probable that it may have been pulled from the release schedule and not even pressed.

Here are some examples:

1/ In-house acetate. This very probably would have been cut on an acetate for in-house purposes only and for record execs to decide what should be done with it. In this case it didn't get released as a 45 and only featured on Thelma's Sunshower LP.

http://youtu.be/c848aE4Om5E

2/ Reference copy. The acetate below was likely cut as a personal reference copy, hence why it shows the name of Barbara Harris rather than The Toys (although I asked Barbara and she doesn't recall owning it). However, if it was indeed made as a personal copy, one can speculate that three copies like this (with Lover's Concerto on the reverse) might have been cut - one for each member of the group.

http://youtu.be/UH-nrkcNmLw

3/ Reference copy. The next acetate is an unreleased alt take of Major Lance's "Keep on loving you" and would have been used as a reference copy - possibly listened to away from the studio and alongside the slower version (or maybe even other versions) to determine which take of the song worked best and whether they should look to improve on it (and it obviously did need improving as you can hear the backing vocals break down about half way through). In the end, this take was rejected. Very probably this is the only copy of this track, excluding the master tape should it still exist.

http://youtu.be/PV19XiWJ1s8

4/ Promotional copy. The acetate here - of Terri Sharp's debut 45 "A love that will last" - was pressed up specifically as a promotional item to send to record labels by radio DJ and TV presenter Larry Kane in the hope that they might pick it up and give it a release. When the studio time and session musicians were booked, there was no record deal. The sessions were cut speculatively. I know that's exactly the case here because Terri Sharp saw the acetate on YouTube recently and kindly supplied the background info on it. The majors turned it down, but Huey P Meaux released it on his Ventural label and had a hit with it in Texas where it sold over 5,000 copies. After the local success, one of the majors did then pick it up, hence it also being released in the UK US on Fontana.

http://youtu.be/I1VW7HLRnCQ

So, there you have it - just some examples of acetates cut and used for different reasons. :thumbsup:

Edited by Russell Gilbert

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Another reason for an acetate being cut is as a vanity item. Not only could you and your band cram into a tiny booth, record your own song and have it cut in disc, but recording studios often provided this service. In part, it was an extra revenue stream, but also meant that studio owners had a constant supply of potential new talent: everyone in the record industry wanted to pick up on "the next big thing".

Local groups and singers would walk into a local studio and cut an acetate in the hope of finding local, and maybe in their dreams, national success. For the vast majority of acts however, the acetate would be the closest they'd ever get to realising that dream. The acetate below (advance warning it's not soul!) is an example of exactly this, a short-lived dream, one that lasted a just few seconds over two minutes!

http://youtu.be/SeJonCYtAao

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It didn't? I could swear I've seen it on UK Fontana. Maybe I'm hallucinating as there's no mention of a UK release in the Record Collector price guide! :hypo:

Not as far as I know. I am happy to be wrong though, something else to search for.

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Basically Russell number 1 and number 3 are the same aren't they? Both cut as the the result of a session and to decide which take to go with. If not happy with the sound or result upon listening back then another take done? Either way acetate is stored for reference in the vaults along with a copy or two of he eventual release.

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Basically Russell number 1 and number 3 are the same aren't they? Both cut as the the result of a session and to decide which take to go with. If not happy with the sound or result upon listening back then another take done? Either way acetate is stored for reference in the vaults along with a copy or two of he eventual release.

Ultimately, yes, 1 & 3 are the same. There are many reasons why an acetate might be cut for in-house use. In these specific instances, I think the difference (and the point that I wanted to make), is that number 1 is very much a finished track. Indeed, it is the version that appears on the album. My feeling here is that the acetate was made, not to decide if this is the take that should be used, but to show the finished product, and for those involved to perhaps decide if it should be included on the LP or not, or even released as a 45 or not.

Number 3, on the other hand, is a take - a possible interpretation of how the song might sound. It is not a finished product.

Indeed, acetates of finished tracks would also be used as reference copies and filed in the archives. RCA provide us with great examples of those...

post-9478-0-83826800-1336469337_thumb.jp

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years ago i got some acetates from a junk shop, one was by blodwyn pig (i think) ended up chucking them away as they were folk music rubbish,

15 years later looking in record collector ,as young people say OMG ! one went for 300quid, just in case i checked the bin but it had gone

What!!! Somebody had nicked the bin??? :thumbsup:

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There's another final reason for cutting acetates - to push songs to other companies for 'their' artists to record...

Most famous of these would be Ben E King - Gettiing to me.

I had a copy of a Teddy Randazzo track that had 'The Olympics' on the label along with the sheet music; this had obviously been sent to the Olympics as a demo for them to record.

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There's another final reason for cutting acetates - to push songs to other companies for 'their' artists to record...

Most famous of these would be Ben E King - Gettiing to me.

I had a copy of a Teddy Randazzo track that had 'The Olympics' on the label along with the sheet music; this had obviously been sent to the Olympics as a demo for them to record.

Ditto, I had the publishers acetate of Timi Yuro's "Can't stop running away" with sheet music. Probably from the same batch.

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