Wanted - Treniers - Go! Go! Go! - Uk Fontana

[Denbo]

Can anybody help me with at least an Exc condition copy of this?

I keep missing it. I'd find it then forget to go back and bid on it. It's driving me nuts!!!

Also want on UK Fontana;

Doc Bagby - Dumplin's

Screamin' Jay Hawkins - I Put A Spell On You

I collect Okeh recordings released here in the UK and the above 3 keep eluding me.

[Pete S]

SJ Hawkins is 78 only isn't it?

[lee]

Hi mate, Times Square Records have an Okeh copy of Treniers for about £36

Cheers

Lee

[Denbo]

SJ Hawkins is 78 only isn't it?

Not 100% sure about that Pete. I mean, the Doc Bagby was released on Fontana before SJH and yet that's on a 45.

I have the SJH on a UK Fontana 78 already but am really after the 45.

[Denbo]

Hi mate, Times Square Records have an Okeh copy of Treniers for about £36

Cheers

Lee

Thanks Lee, but I'm just after the UK Fontana release.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Per Pete, SJH is 78 only on Fontana, Den. Philips/Fontana were the last UK company to start manufacturing 45s for anything other than jukeboxes and a few of the early Fontana's were 78 only. I guess Dumplins made it to 45 because it was a hit in the states at about the same time as it was issued here. 'Spell' was, of course, a couple of years old by the time it came out on Fontana and that might have been a reason why there was no 45...

Of course, another Okeh release that came out here on 78 only (this time on Phillips) was 'Peanuts' by Little Joe Cook and the Thrillers...

[Gene-R]

Per Pete, SJH is 78 only on Fontana, Den. Philips/Fontana were the last UK company to start manufacturing 45s for anything other than jukeboxes and a few of the early Fontana's were 78 only. I guess Dumplins made it to 45 because it was a hit in the states at about the same time as it was issued here. 'Spell' was, of course, a couple of years old by the time it came out on Fontana and that might have been a reason why there was no 45...

Could never understand the strategy of the Philips label. As Tony said, they were the last UK company to start manufacturing 45s generally but, before this, they had their own series of jukebox 45s (the JK series) from late 1956 to early 1958 (I could be wrong, but I think "Rock A-Chicka" by Frankie Vaughan crossed over onto both formats, the JK copy and the stock PB 45). What's even more complex is that they were issuing 7" EPs from about 1954, so why no commercial 45 releases until 1958?

Like the Screamin' Jay Hawkins 78 on Fontana, I could never understand why "Bop A Lena" by Ronnie Self, a 1958 release (on Columbia in the USA), was on Philips 45 in countries like Holland, but only on Philips 78 in the UK.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Gene-R

[Denbo]

Per Pete, SJH is 78 only on Fontana, Den. Philips/Fontana were the last UK company to start manufacturing 45s for anything other than jukeboxes and a few of the early Fontana's were 78 only. I guess Dumplins made it to 45 because it was a hit in the states at about the same time as it was issued here. 'Spell' was, of course, a couple of years old by the time it came out on Fontana and that might have been a reason why there was no 45...

Of course, another Okeh release that came out here on 78 only (this time on Phillips) was 'Peanuts' by Little Joe Cook and the Thrillers...

Thanks Tony.

Thanks also for the reminder on the 'Peanuts' by Little Joe Cook and the Thrillers 45. Forgot all about that one!!! Will have to add it to my little Wants list posted above.

Re Doc Bagby, how can this be a 45 when SJH came out later, well very next release number in fact, but only as a 78. You might have explained that above but I've not understood your explanation. Sorry, I'm a bit thick you know.

[Denbo]

Could never understand the strategy of the Philips label. As Tony said, they were the last UK company to start manufacturing 45s generally but, before this, they had their own series of jukebox 45s (the JK series) from late 1956 to early 1958 (I could be wrong, but I think "Rock A-Chicka" by Frankie Vaughan crossed over onto both formats, the JK copy and the stock PB 45). What's even more complex is that they were issuing 7" EPs from about 1954, so why no commercial 45 releases until 1958?

Like the Screamin' Jay Hawkins 78 on Fontana, I could never understand why "Bop A Lena" by Ronnie Self, a 1958 release (on Columbia in the USA), was on Philips 45 in countries like Holland, but only on Philips 78 in the UK.

These JK Series 45s Gene, were they UK releases? Well, produced for the Juke Box industry but not for general release?

[Gene-R]

These JK Series 45s Gene, were they UK releases? Well, produced for the Juke Box industry but not for general release?

Hi Den,

Yes, they were all UK releases. As you rightly assumed, they weren't for general release but were produced for the Juke Box industry. 36 releases are known in total. The first release was "Moonlight Gambler" by Frankie Laine (JK 1000). All of the 'JK' series were, of course, only publicly available as 78s with a PB number prefix - with one excption being the final release; "Kisses Sweeter Than Wine / Rock-A-Chicka" by Frankie Vaughan (JK 1035) which, for some reason, was the only one also released as a stock 45 (PB 775), as well as a 78 with the same number.

The series was dominated by MOR artists such as Guy Mitchell, Frankie Vaughan, Rosemary Clooney, Johnnie Ray etc, with the only rockin' release being "Start Movin'" by Sal Mineo (JK 1024). Because of their intended usage on juke boxes, very few have turned up in decent condition. The majority that do turn up for sale are usually VG+ or less.

Here's a label example for you to give you an idea of how they looked (one I sold on Ebay some months ago).

Good luck with the Treniers and Doc Bagby 45s on Fontana by the way.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Gene-R

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Thanks Tony.

Thanks also for the reminder on the 'Peanuts' by Little Joe Cook and the Thrillers 45. Forgot all about that one!!! Will have to add it to my little Wants list posted above.

Re Doc Bagby, how can this be a 45 when SJH came out later, well very next release number in fact, but only as a 78. You might have explained that above but I've not understood your explanation. Sorry, I'm a bit thick you know.

'Peanuts' was 78 only on Philips, Den.

I would imagine that Philips/Fontana were still pretty cautious about what they pressed on 45 for commercial sale when they first made the transition. There were ceratinly still a few 78-only releases on Philips itself after they started issuing 45s commercially.. Maybe they thought 'Dumplins' would have a better chance of chart success if they made it available in both formats. It was released here when it was still current in the US (unlike SJH) and it was competing with a lot of cover versions from both the US and here, all of which would have been available as 78s and 45s.

The JK series is interesting and, as Gene says, has quite a few big pop hits of the era in its run that were not issued commercially on 45. Nearest it got to an R&B record was Frankie Laine and Johnnie Ray's excellent revival of Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Marie Knight's 'Up Above My Head (I Hear Music In The Air)' which, I'm pleased to say, I have a copy of...

Edited September 19, 2012 by TONY ROUNCE

[Denbo]

Thanks very much Gene and Tony for all the facts and information above. A damned good read. I need to alter my Wants list accordingly.

Do either of you have an extensive list of all Okeh recordings released over here on UK labels?

[Gene-R]

Thanks very much Gene and Tony for all the facts and information above. A damned good read. I need to alter my Wants list accordingly.

Do either of you have an extensive list of all Okeh recordings released over here on UK labels?

I think Tony would be your man on this one rather than me Den. Though, as another bit of trivia, "Cry / The Little White Cloud That Cried" by Johnnie Ray was issued in 1951 on Okeh in the states (on their "Rhythm & Blues Series"), and as a 78 in the UK on Columbia. There's no UK 45 of this, but both tracks were on his only UK Columbia EP in 1954. I think this was his only Okeh release before moving to Columbia in the US, but probably worth checking out, if only for collection completion.

Not sure how far back you want to go in terms of collecting but, as far as I know, the first Okeh record to be released here was "Two Black Crows, Pt. 1 and 2" by Moran and Mack - a 1926 release on US Okeh 78, and a UK Columbia 78 (but I am open to correction!).

Edited September 19, 2012 by Gene-R

[Denbo]

I think Tony would be your man on this one rather than me Den. Though, as another bit of trivia, "Cry / The Little White Cloud That Cried" by Johnnie Ray was issued in 1951 on Okeh in the states (on their "Rhythm & Blues Series"), and as a 78 in the UK on Columbia. There's no UK 45 of this, but both tracks were on his only UK Columbia EP in 1954. I think this was his only Okeh release before moving to Columbia in the US, but probably worth checking out, if only for collection completion.

Not sure how far back you want to go in terms of collecting but, as far as I know, the first Okeh record to be released here was "Two Black Crows, Pt. 1 and 2" by Moran and Mack - a 1926 release on US Okeh 78, and a UK Columbia 78 (but I am open to correction!).

That was good info Gene, something to work on.

I knew about the Johnnie Ray 78 on UK Columbia, or at least it struck a chord, but not the Moran & Mack. Thanks for that little snippet.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I don't have a complete list of Okeh's, Den. There are loads of 1920s Jazz 78s that came out on Columbia and Parlophone, some of which also came out on UK Columbia 45s in the early 50s - I have a couple of Louis Armstrong Hot Five and Hot Seven 45s in my own collection and there's also a Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four 45 which has two Okeh tracks.

Presume you know about the super rare Chuck Willis EP on Fontana, consisting of four Okeh tracks? Les at Kingbee has one for sale in the shop, if you're feeling like a pools winner...

BTW Johnnie Ray had one other Okeh 78 prior to Cry - "Whiskey And Gin"/"Tell The Lady I Said Goodbye" (Okeh 6809). He recorded it in Detroit with accompaniment from Maurice King and his Wolverines. Released in the USA in 1951 it was belatedly issued here on a Columbia 78 (DB 3263) and 45 (SCM 5041) in June 1953, not too long before US Columbia shifted its distribution from EMI to Phillips.

[Denbo]

I don't have a complete list of Okeh's, Den. There are loads of 1920s Jazz 78s that came out on Columbia and Parlophone, some of which also came out on UK Columbia 45s in the early 50s - I have a couple of Louis Armstrong Hot Five and Hot Seven 45s in my own collection and there's also a Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four 45 which has two Okeh tracks.

Presume you know about the super rare Chuck Willis EP on Fontana, consisting of four Okeh tracks? Les at Kingbee has one for sale in the shop, if you're feeling like a pools winner...

BTW Johnnie Ray had one other Okeh 78 prior to Cry - "Whiskey And Gin"/"Tell The Lady I Said Goodbye" (Okeh 6809). He recorded it in Detroit with accompaniment from Maurice King and his Wolverines. Released in the USA in 1951 it was belatedly issued here on a Columbia 78 (DB 3263) and 45 (SCM 5041) in June 1953, not too long before US Columbia shifted its distribution from EMI to Phillips.

I guess you're right about the very early Okeh stuff on UK Columbia 78's and 45's, I probably wouldn't want to bother collecting them. Having a list of what Okeh recordings did get a UK release would be good to know though. For instance, didn't know about that other Johnnie Ray 78.

As for the Chuck Willis Ep, I think it's on my list, can't check, in London, but I can't remember ever having seen one. Is there a scan of it anywhere?

Btw Tony (& Gene), thanks for all this info, chuffed to find others even remotely interested in this kind of stuff.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I guess you're right about the very early Okeh stuff on UK Columbia 78's and 45's, I probably wouldn't want to bother collecting them. Having a list of what Okeh recordings did get a UK release would be good to know though. For instance, didn't know about that other Johnnie Ray 78.

As for the Chuck Willis Ep, I think it's on my list, can't check, in London, but I can't remember ever having seen one. Is there a scan of it anywhere?

Btw Tony (& Gene), thanks for all this info, chuffed to find others even remotely interested in this kind of stuff.