Roburt Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 the honeybees recorded on roxbury (dream express) 1976 That set of Honey Bees were UK based. Their producers were Richard Hewson & Phil Swern who worked with the likes of the Pearls (1972), R & J Stone, Bryan Taylor, etc. Hewson led the RAH Band Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 the honeybees recorded on roxbury (dream express) 1976 That set of Honey Bees were UK based. Their producers were Richard Hewson & Phil Swern who worked with the likes of the Pearls (1972), R & J Stone, Bryan Taylor, etc. Hewson led the RAH Band Phil Swern - the guy who produces Sounds Of The 60's and Pick Of The Pops? He bought a record off me a couple of years back; The COD's - Michael - Stateside. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The mentions of Honey & The Bees (Josie, Arctic) on this topic are all pretty irrelevant to the actual question. It's not even as though it's the same name! They were, however, at least the nucleus of The Yum Yums on ABC Paramount, so at least some 'scene' relevance. The Honey Bees on Fontana were really two separate groups, albeit the same entity as both were pseudonyms for other, moonlighting groups fulfilling the one Fontana-Mercury contract. Their first single, "One Wonderful Night" is reckoned to be The Cookies under a nom de disc, while the second lot (who had the original release of Goffin and King's classic "Some Of Your Loving") was a studio aggregation which contained members of a group who also recorded as 'The Orchids' on Columbia. I'd assume there is no connection whatsoever between any of these and the Garrison record. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 yes, and there are some more soul groups not yet mentioned in this thread named the "honey bees" but mentioning them doesn't help to clarify anything as they are not related. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Marc Forrest Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) okay, lets see what we have so far: honey bees on garrison rec. nyc, honey & the bees arctic rec. philly, honey and the bees on academy rec. nyc (albeit being another group from philly re to boba). andantes maybe the honey bees on garrison with a different lead. Edited October 12, 2012 by Marc Forrest Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 the garrison production is definitely detroit and rix quoted one of the andantes saying it was the andantes backing another singer. the pentagon group is a white teen group that had nothing to do with any of the other groups in the thread. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Marc Forrest Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 It may have sth to do with the deal that brought jack montgomery to Scepter records. Maybe this Honey Bees recording shares the same background story...they are all FLOMAR published, the Garrison 45 is even produced by Jack Montgomery. That might explain why it has "never in a million years" on the flipside as its also the track that hits the flipside to jacks barracuda 45. no answer to the initial question who the honey bees were but maybe guiding us towards one ? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Marc Forrest Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 ... rix quoted one of the andantes saying it was the andantes backing another singer. true. I have edited my second last post to get it more appropriate Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 okay, lets see what we have so far: honey bees on garrison rec. nyc, honey & the bees arctic rec. philly, honey and the bees on academy rec. nyc (albeit being another group from philly re to boba). andantes maybe the honey bees on garrison with a different lead. The Honey Bees on Garrison couldn't be more Detroit if it tried to be in terms of its credits and its sound, so not NYC except for being distributed by Scepter. I'd take the Andantes thing with a pinch of salt personally. The group member talks of it as possibly an 'early' session (meaning predating their Motown involvement from the gist of her comments?) when clearly from the sound of the record it's contemporary to its release, so circa 1967. It wouldn't be the first instance of a session musician refusing to deny taking part in a recording they had no connection with in actuality. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) It may have sth to do with the deal that brought jack montgomery to Scepter records. Maybe this Honey Bees recording shares the same background story...they are all FLOMAR published, the Garrison 45 is even produced by Jack Montgomery. That might explain why it has "never in a million years" on the flipside as its also the track that hits the flipside to jacks barracuda 45. no answer to the initial question who the honey bees were but maybe guiding us towards one ? Flomar was a publishing company owned by the Scepter partners Flo Greenberg and Marv Schlacter. A number of outside masters released on Scepter and associated labels would have been published through this company as well as material recorded in New York and paid for by Greenberg on signed artists. The other common publisher credit with the Jack Montgomery / Honey Bees / Just Brothers material was Travler, named after the motel owned by Don Montgomery, the co-proprieter of the Barracuda and Empire labels. As an aside the address of Flomar was the same as that of Scepter's recording studios at 254 W.54th Street in Manhattan. Premises which later became the famous discotheque Studio 54. Edited October 14, 2012 by garethx Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 It wouldn't be the first instance of a session musician refusing to deny taking part in a recording they had no connection with in actuality. or just not remembering one (in this case one of a bazillion) of the things they sang backup on Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 ^ Indeed. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Ringleader Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I agree with garethx, it sounds like the same singer on both sides....just singing in a more restrained style on NIAMY The backing vocals on either side don't sound polished enough to be the Andantes to me Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I agree with garethx, it sounds like the same singer on both sides....just singing in a more restrained style on NIAMY The backing vocals on either side don't sound polished enough to be the Andantes to me Nor me. I have a hard time believing that The Andantes would have recorded a couple of songs as the "feature group", under a false name, while under contract to Motown in 1966 or 1967. What would be the attraction? A one-time small fee? They couldn't tour, or appear in Detroit venues under that name. Almost NO artists received royalties during those years. None of Don Juan Mancha, Bridges, Knight & Eaton were making BIG money for the artists who recorded for them. I suspect that this group was NOT The Andantes. They don't sound like The Andantes, to me. 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Nor me. I have a hard time believing that The Andantes would have recorded a couple of songs as the "feature group", under a false name, while under contract to Motown in 1966 or 1967. What would be the attraction? A one-time small fee? They couldn't tour, or appear in Detroit venues under that name. Almost NO artists received royalties during those years. None of Don Juan Mancha, Bridges, Knight & Eaton were making BIG money for the artists who recorded for them. I suspect that this group was NOT The Andantes. They don't sound like The Andantes, to me. The only thing artists did get paid for WAS session work. They didn't get paid for their recording (someone kept the money along the chain, claiming an advance wasn't recouped). The Andantes weren't songwriters. Everyone I talked to *loved* to do session work because they got paid and they got paid right there. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 The only thing artists did get paid for WAS session work. They didn't get paid for their recording (someone kept the money along the chain, claiming an advance wasn't recouped). The Andantes weren't songwriters. Everyone I talked to *loved* to do session work because they got paid and they got paid right there. That's very true. Nevertheless, I don't see Mancha or Bridges/Knight/Eaton using The Andantes great talent for such a great opportunity to make a hit, and then just leasing it to a miniscule New York label. The potential record sales revenues are split among them, and Garris AND Scepter-Wand (for distribution), and IF decent sales DO materialise, there is no group to sing in clubs, go on tour, etc. I just don't believe that was what happened. Maybe it would have been smart to have The Andantes record really well-made recordings with The Funk Brothers, and then use another ensemble of good non-Motown Detroit singers as the group that has interface with the public (Adorables or Debonairs or..... etc.). But I don't think that's what happened in this case. I think I've heard this Honey Bees' lead singer's voice before, but I don't recognise it as one of The Andantes. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 OK so no definite answers yet. We know the Garrison 45 is Detroit (not NY Marc). It's either The Andantes with a different lead or some Edwin Starr touring singers (my alternative suggestion) - Don Mancha the other writer was actually Edwin's trip manager at the time....but we're still waiting some replies. So we don't know for sure yet. Roburt - The Honey Bees came out in Feb / March 67 time. Garrison was over by May 67. I don't know what Flo Mar has to do with it, since that's just Scepter's publishing arm, and appeared on most Scepter distributed 45s at the time....they just put that on as many records as they could. Onwards and upwards.... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Flomar came us as Marc identified it as a common denominator between the Jack Montgomery Scepter release and the Honey Bees on Garrison whereas the more pertinent link which ties these records plus the Just Brothers on Garrison and Empire together is Travler/Traveler Music (spelled both ways on various releases). As you point out Steve Flomar was the publisher on many Scepter Wand releases. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Apparently, Flomar got a piece of the publishing as pay for Scepter-Wand's distributing of the Garrison record. Wasn't Johnny Terry the conduit that connected all those Detroit productions to New York labels for release? That's the way I understood that situation. Terry was listed as the producer or co-producer on the Empire, Velvet Sound, Garrison, Barracuda and Jack Montgomery Scepter and Revue records. I read quotes from some of the artists saying that Johnny Terry didn't REALLY "produce" (didn't run recording sessions), he was just the conduit through which Detroit productions by Don Mancha and Bob Hamilton, and one or two others got released on New York labels. Mancha had probably met Terry in New York, when he worked there during the early Mid '60s (Drum Records release, etc.). Does anyone know if there was really a Don Montgomery? Maybe "Don Montgomery" stands for a partnership between Don Mancha and Jack Montgomery (Marvin Jones)? Both of them were the major writers for Travler Music. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 it was pretty common for records that got picked up on major labels to have their publishing fully or half bought out by the major label's publishing. if you look at a lot of locally released 45s that got picked up by a national label and compare the two, you'll see that. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Apparently, Flomar got a piece of the publishing as pay for Scepter-Wand's distributing of the Garrison record. Wasn't Johnny Terry the conduit that connected all those Detroit productions to New York labels for release? That's the way I understood that situation. Terry was listed as the producer or co-producer on the Empire, Velvet Sound, Garrison, Barracuda and Jack Montgomery Scepter and Revue records. I read quotes from some of the artists saying that Johnny Terry didn't REALLY "produce" (didn't run recording sessions), he was just the conduit through which Detroit productions by Don Mancha and Bob Hamilton, and one or two others got released on New York labels. Yes this is all consistent with what I have read Robb. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Garethx Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Such a shame that so much of this story appears to be shrouded in mystery due to 'business considerations' as the music these sessions provided was uniformly great. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Roburt Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 OK so no definite answers yet. Roburt - The Honey Bees came out in Feb / March 67 time. Garrison was over by May 67. Onwards and upwards.... Sorry Steve, I was obviously WAY OUT with my guestimate that ..... .... The Honey Bees 45 (Garrison #3005 / 50642) had to be released around MARCH to June of 1967 ..... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Marc Forrest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 OK so no definite answers yet. We know the Garrison 45 is Detroit (not NY Marc). Please Steve, if you feel the need to correct read correctly what you wanna correct before..I never said its NYC. I said its on a NYC based label... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Marc Forrest Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Flomar came us as Marc identified it as a common denominator between the Jack Montgomery Scepter release and the Honey Bees on Garrison whereas the more pertinent link which ties these records plus the Just Brothers on Garrison and Empire together is Travler/Traveler Music (spelled both ways on various releases). As you point out Steve Flomar was the publisher on many Scepter Wand releases. yeah, and its on the Barracuda 45... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Rimmer Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The Don Mancha, Don Montgomery, Jack Montgomery and John Terry connection is all explained in the interview I did with Don Mancha https://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/inter1.htm Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Please Steve, if you feel the need to correct read correctly what you wanna correct before..I never said its NYC. I said its on a NYC based label... sorry, a few of us thought your comment "rec. nyc" meant recorded there rather than released on a NY label. Ok. cool. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Lee Bates Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Sorry, no new info to add but has anybody ever seen an issue of the Garrison 45? I am lucky enough to have a demo and have only ever seen it for sale once or twice....but found one today on ebay....wonder what it will end up going for? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Pat doesn't know either although she is making enquiries......Gawd what a mystery. Steve 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) I've never seen anything but the DJ copies. I can't remember seeing a Garrison stock record of ANY of their issues. I've seen about 5-6 different records on the label, and they were ALL white DJs. I have some faint memory of seeing an actual store stocker of one of them (NOT The Honeybees). It was solid yellow. Is that right, or was it just a dream? Edited October 16, 2012 by RobbK Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Anais nin Carms Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I would love to know who is the lead singer on lets get back together. To me it sounds like a completely different artist than never in a million years. Thanks Carms Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I also have only seen white label copies of anything on Garrison. Maybe stock copies are also white label and DJ copies explicitly say DJ copy so it appears that they're all promos but aren't? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 also, are all copies styrene? because this one says "vinyl" (I know that doesn't mean anything) but it also looks different than other copies in popsike https://www.popsike.com/PROMO-NORTHERN-SOUL-45-THE-HONEY-BEES-LETS-GET-BACK-TOGETHER-CLEAN/290623692106.html Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Right so Humphrey stomp was pressed at least three times in the 60s and issues are two a penny. Beyond that I have seen an issue of Alan Bruce, and maybe a green issue of Honey Bees (I might have dreamt that!). All were styrene as far as I know, Scepter's favourite type of product for singles.... Steve Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I DID see a yellow label on Garrison-my "Humphry Stomp". It doesn't say "Disc Jockey issue" or "Not For Sale", but it DOES have stars on the implied "Hit Side". So, despite having the yellow label, was that a DJ issue or a store stock? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 i vote store stock. also, nice that it's vinyl. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Pinch Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 looks styrene to me that popsike link bob....did i see the traits on yellow garrison Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 looks styrene to me that popsike link bob....did i see the traits on yellow garrison yeah i agree. i was referring to the yellow copy above, clearly vinyl. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Dave Pinch Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 humphrey stomp on vinyl. strange one, i think everythin else i seen scepter or distributed by was styrene at that time altho some early 60`s wand/scepter are on vinyl Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 20, 2012 Author Share Posted October 20, 2012 Quite a bit of Scepter was on vinyl, it depended on which pressing plant they used. Also have a few Wands on vinyl. The NY stuff (including Garrison presses) was mostly styrene. I think when they got stuff pressed elsewhere - like down south - is when you tended to see the vinyl. The Humphrey Stomp above is an issue, the stars just there too highlight the A side, not indicative of a demo. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Robbk Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 (edited) I got that vinyl "Humphry Stomp" in Chicagoland. So, I suspect that it was pressed in The Midwest. We had a lot of our Scepter-Wand issues on vinyl. It bears the normal Scepter-Wand press number: 50620 and 50621, but, it also has 240 on the A side, and 243 on the B side ("Can You Forgive Me). Could those small numbers be the actual pressing plant job numbers? They seem much too small to be pressing job numbers (perhaps just a pressing code number?). Edited October 20, 2012 by RobbK 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Andy Rix Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 No further news from the Andantes ... but I'm still expecting responses. I think what Louvain has said so far seems to indicate none of the girls sang lead. Last night I had a dream that it was Martha Star on lead .. not that stupid really given the Don Mancha connection .. might go and compare some songs to see if the vocals match up Could 'we' ask Telma Hopkins or Joyce Vincent ? ,,, think they are on Facebook .. I'm not Andy 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi Andy, Those two names loads of them on Facebook and can't see some of them due to their privacy settings. So can't contact them. Nothing back from Pat yet either. Times like this remind me how much we lost when we lost Edwin. Steve Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Andy Rix Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 https://www.facebook.com/pages/Telma-Hopkins/113386892008411 This is her page ........ Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Andy that's a general info page not her page.....Steve Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Andy Rix Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 ... I think Ady C contacted her recently ..... I'd be useless on Facebook !! Andy Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
boba Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Last night I had a dream that it was Martha Star on lead .. not that stupid really kind of strange though Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Popular Post Pete S Posted October 22, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted October 22, 2012 Okay here's the info you wanted. Lead singer is Barbara Ann Williams. She is the sister of Juanita Williams of Golden World fame. Information from her nephew. I thank you. 6 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Tony Smith Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Regarding Garrison issues, I have Allen Bruce, Earl Harrison and Bobby & Wallace, not seen issues of Honeybees or Just Brothers. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Steve G Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Okay here's the info you wanted. Lead singer is Barbara Ann Williams. She is the sister of Juanita Williams of Golden World fame. Information from her nephew. I thank you. Thanks Pete Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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