Northern Scene / Hooligans

[Paulb]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too. I grew up in the 80's and watched Burnley thoughout my teanage years but never saw any fighting and none of my mates were into it. This books goes on about how the hooligans of that time were between 15-20 years old which I couldn't believe. I've always thought that hoolies have always been much older.

I also found out the other day that Wigan was full of 14-20 years olds and that shocked me too. Both of these scenes were dominated by young kids. Kids fighting and taking drugs at such a young age when I was climbing tree's and playing army at 14.

The incidents that this bloke took part in are genuinely shocking and this was happening every week up and down the country.

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things?

Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night?

I came to the conclusion that I would have lasted 5 mins tops in the 70's. Thats absolute tops too.

Edited March 29, 2006 by PaulB

[Guest ShaneH]

Cardiff's boys are called the 'soul crew' or something similar.

Pete-S will no doubt wanna get in on this

Shane

[Guest]

Wigan was deffinately full of young kids Paul, but not all on drugs I remember sending off for my first membership with a false date of birth ( offically you had to be 18 to get in) .Most of us then thought a 22 year old was way over the hill

[Guest janey]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too. I grew up in the 80's and watched Burnley thoughout my teanage years but never saw any fighting and none of my mates were into it. This books goes on about how the hooligans of that time were between 15-20 years old which I couldn't believe. I've always thought that hoolies have always been much older.

I also found out the other day that Wigan was full of 14-20 years olds and that shocked me too. Both of these scenes were dominated by young kids. Kids fighting and taking drugs at such a young age when I was climbing tree's and playing army at 14.

The incidents that this bloke took part in are genuinely shocking and this was happening every week up and down the country.

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things?

Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night?

I came to the conclusion that I would have lasted 5 mins tops in the 70's. Thats absolute tops too.

I read this book a couple of years back Paul, and I like you was very surprised at his connections with the "soulboys" and soccer hooliganism!!! On the whole I found it to be a shocking and yet riveting read...although some facts I found to be way off the mark!!!

Interesting thread

Janey

[Soulsmith]

By co-incidence I was recently reading an article on HOVVER (thats H o v v e r not Hover) BOVVER

https://www.dooyoo.co.uk/garden-tools/flymo...30-mower/77787/

[Guest]

By co-incidence I was recently reading an article on HOVVER (thats H o v v e r not Hover) BOVVER

https://www.dooyoo.co.uk/garden-tools/flymo...30-mower/77787/

Think Stanley Kubrik Played no small part 1971

[Paulb]

Think Stanley Kubrik Played no small part 1971

He mentions the effect that Stanley Kubric played with his film. Lads wearing false eyelashes and that on the terraces. Quite amusing really!

The other noticeable thing was the drastic change in fashions over a relatively short period of time.

[Guest andrew bin]

i've met loads of football fans/hooligans at soul nights/nighters throughout the country spent a few hours in the company of some stoke fans at the kings hall once nice bunch of lads very polite

Edited March 29, 2006 by andrew bin

[Guest garv]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too. I grew up in the 80's and watched Burnley thoughout my teanage years but never saw any fighting and none of my mates were into it. This books goes on about how the hooligans of that time were between 15-20 years old which I couldn't believe. I've always thought that hoolies have always been much older.

I also found out the other day that Wigan was full of 14-20 years olds and that shocked me too. Both of these scenes were dominated by young kids. Kids fighting and taking drugs at such a young age when I was climbing tree's and playing army at 14.

The incidents that this bloke took part in are genuinely shocking and this was happening every week up and down the country.

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things?

Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night?

I came to the conclusion that I would have lasted 5 mins tops in the 70's. Thats absolute tops too.

I`m only speaking for myself here:

I know loads of lads who were "chaps" & soul fans from all over the country, for me following football became a full time deal after Wigan closed but used to go semi regular while it was open ( cash flow). some folks might not like the next statement but here goes, when your young violence is sexy ......... let me explain.

Being part of something.. Soul music, football, rock music, scooters or whatever your trip is as a young male you fly your particular flag & wear your heart on your sleeve. I love football & was involved in violence but not what i would call mindless violence. I never & still dont think the scene`s went hand in hand but its all part of youth culture, everyone has there own idea`s / take on it, much the same as life........ loads of lads i knew were going to football / soul & never got involved in trouble, others did......... some made serious money from fashion, drugs, tickets etc etc ( grafters as they used to be known by us).

I know SS members who were very active on both scenes but its up to them if they contribute to this topic........... let me add i feel no guilt / shame for being involved in football violence as we only fought others of our kind......... no civilians, having said that after certain events i stopped as it was getting stupid (imo) people died & that was not what it was ever about for me.

garv.

[Guest]

He mentions the effect that Stanley Kubric played with his film. Lads wearing false eyelashes and that on the terraces. Quite amusing really!

The other noticeable thing was the drastic change in fashions over a relatively short period of time.

Thing was guys DID go round like that With the makeup ,Ball bags,White Jeans,Braces, Docs Black not ox blood or cherry red,

And the Beat the shit out of him just for fun attitude was there.

I saw this before it was banned Sneaking in at the backdoor at our local cinema and Kubric swore never to relese it to the cinemas again in protest! because of that!

At the time it was generally accepted And reported to be the cause of an increase of violence amongst teenage gangs!

One more point i have probably seen this film half a dozen times since then and everyone has been cut! unlike the first relese which went out in its entirety

So it was a factor in furthering hooliganism.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Mr M

[Soultown andy]

Like gary only speaking for myself,was a devout stretford ender all through my teens and went through the whole youth club then wigan scenario,and got into lots of fights the off shoot of which was a holiday paid for by her majesty at the lovely strangeways grand hotel.I know lots of guys on the scene who went through a similar scenario its called growing up.And just by chance my favourite film is a clockwork orange.

Edited March 29, 2006 by Soultown andy

[Dave]

I'm currently reading a book called "BOVVER" by Chris Brown (thats b o v v e r not bower). Its about the hooligan scene in the 70's and mentiones that the soul boys were into it all too. I grew up in the 80's and watched Burnley thoughout my teanage years but never saw any fighting and none of my mates were into it. This books goes on about how the hooligans of that time were between 15-20 years old which I couldn't believe. I've always thought that hoolies have always been much older.

I also found out the other day that Wigan was full of 14-20 years olds and that shocked me too. Both of these scenes were dominated by young kids. Kids fighting and taking drugs at such a young age when I was climbing tree's and playing army at 14.

The incidents that this bloke took part in are genuinely shocking and this was happening every week up and down the country.

Did the two scene's go hand in hand or was it two different groups doing two very different things?

Were these lads kicking the shit out of you sat afternoon then being your best mate at the mecca / torch / wigan sat night?

I came to the conclusion that I would have lasted 5 mins tops in the 70's. Thats absolute tops too.

What you're reading Paul is a fairly accurate account of things.

On the other hand a lot of people conveniently gloss over the scene of those times, pretending everybody was mates, you could leave your bag or records unguarded etc... all a load of bollocks.

Yes they kicked shit out of eachother on Saturday afternoons... and they'd do it again before the nighter if they got the chance. There was often a reception party at Manchester or Wigan station and if you had the wrong accent or wore a scarf, you needed to look out!

I always thought one of the reasons Cleethorpes was so much more relaxed was that there was no football in the town, whereas in the north west or Stoke or even Peterborough the football tribalism carried on into the soul scene... not necessarily in the nighters, you needed to watch yourself outside before the start though.

I reckon I was 15 when I first went to a nighter, and that wasn't unusual. I do agree with Karen, though, that the perception of drug use is overexaggerated. When it was the material from chemists, not everybody could get it, and when the, erm, custom-made stuff became available some of us avoided it like the plague

[Soultown andy]

Quite right dave ask anyone who got the train from manchester to wigan.We used to get on at bolton and 9 times out of 10 [pardon the pun]we would have a set to with locals or heavy rockers as we got off in wigan.

[Wally Francis]

There's a book out now called "THE BRICK" by PAUL DEBRICK,He was very active in both scene's he used to go to wigan with us when he was 15yrs old and went on from there,which he describes in detail in his book,about how he became involved in the drug culture whilst going to Wigan and how this eventually led him into other scene's,one being the hooligan side and fighting at football games,and other music scenes.

In this book he pull's no punch's and tell's it like it was "for him" anyway.I myself am more of a lover not a fighter,well most of the time

[Soultown andy]

Also remember haveing some real battles with the punks on plymouth grove walking to and from the carousel allniters in manchester,as has been previously said it was never the soul brother soul sister scene that some seem to remember it as.That said had a lot more good memories than bad ones,just all part of growing up.

[Guest]

Quite right dave ask anyone who got the train from manchester to wigan.We used to get on at bolton and 9 times out of 10 [pardon the pun]we would have a set to with locals or heavy rockers as we got off in wigan.

Thats dead true They were pissed and up for it, if you were 3 or 4 strong and met them a distance from there you had to be pretty careful, But they were dead quite coming out while we lined up outside to go in!

Used to look at them like total and utter filthy prats as they marched out!

Funny thinking about it now but a deffo mod/rocker spillover thing going on then!

[Dave]

I`m only speaking for myself here:

I know loads of lads who were "chaps" & soul fans from all over the country, for me following football became a full time deal after Wigan closed but used to go semi regular while it was open ( cash flow). some folks might not like the next statement but here goes, when your young violence is sexy ......... let me explain.

Being part of something.. Soul music, football, rock music, scooters or whatever your trip is as a young male you fly your particular flag & wear your heart on your sleeve. I love football & was involved in violence but not what i would call mindless violence. I never & still dont think the scene`s went hand in hand but its all part of youth culture, everyone has there own idea`s / take on it, much the same as life........ loads of lads i knew were going to football / soul & never got involved in trouble, others did......... some made serious money from fashion, drugs, tickets etc etc ( grafters as they used to be known by us).

I know SS members who were very active on both scenes but its up to them if they contribute to this topic........... let me add i feel no guilt / shame for being involved in football violence as we only fought others of our kind......... no civilians, having said that after certain events i stopped as it was getting stupid (imo) people died & that was not what it was ever about for me.

garv.

Evening sir, hope you are well?

When you say you feel the two scenes didnt go hand in hand, would I be right in thinking you mean in the 80s rather than 70s?

[Guest gibber]

Hooligans, anybody remember the clash with rockers @ the fleet p/boro

Dustbin lids were choice of weapens i seemed to recall.( No not the plastic type )

[Guest NASHEE]

What you're reading Paul is a fairly accurate account of things.

On the other hand a lot of people conveniently gloss over the scene of those times, pretending everybody was mates, you could leave your bag or records unguarded etc... all a load of bollocks.

Yes they kicked shit out of eachother on Saturday afternoons... and they'd do it again before the nighter if they got the chance. There was often a reception party at Manchester or Wigan station and if you had the wrong accent or wore a scarf, you needed to look out!

I always thought one of the reasons Cleethorpes was so much more relaxed was that there was no football in the town, whereas in the north west or Stoke or even Peterborough the football tribalism carried on into the soul scene... not necessarily in the nighters, you needed to watch yourself outside before the start though.

I reckon I was 15 when I first went to a nighter, and that wasn't unusual. I do agree with Karen, though, that the perception of drug use is overexaggerated. When it was the material from chemists, not everybody could get it, and when the, erm, custom-made stuff became available some of us avoided it like the plague

Dave....wash youre mouth out....No football in Cleethorpes????

Have they moved Grimsby Towns ground then,,,,,last time I looked..Blundell Park was in Cleethorpes ????

Have a word with Ted about footie agro & northern soul in Cleethorpes,,,I think youre in for a bit of a shock.

and CUMFORT (I've cum fort day) beating was pretty rife too.

[Paulb]

Dave....wash youre mouth out....No football in Cleethorpes????

Have they moved Grimsby Towns ground then,,,,,last time I looked..Blundell Park was in Cleethorpes ????

Have a word with Ted about footie agro & northern soul in Cleethorpes,,,I think youre in for a bit of a shock.

and CUMFORT (I've cum fort day) beating was pretty rife too.

No, I think Dave was right. No football in Cleethorpes.

[Simon T]

Hooligans, anybody remember the clash with rockers @ the fleet p/boro

Remember the night the 'skins' kicked the shit out of 'mods' there whilst us soulies / casuals decided to 'run for cover? My mate's still looking for a bit of his ear in the brickworks!

[Guest NASHEE]

No, I think Dave was right. No football in Cleethorpes.

Ha Ha Ha....nice one sir

[pikeys dog]

Major link between The Wheel and Football Hoolies was the Suedeheads...

My Pa was a Skinhead in '69, locked up for fighting in general around 1971 (Football matches, Fairgrounds, Bus Stops at kicking out time) and started going to nighters in 73 upon his release.

[Guest Baz]

Some good refernces to hooliganism in the book 'crakin' up'

[Dave]

Dave....wash youre mouth out....No football in Cleethorpes????

Have they moved Grimsby Towns ground then,,,,,last time I looked..Blundell Park was in Cleethorpes ????

Have a word with Ted about footie agro & northern soul in Cleethorpes,,,I think youre in for a bit of a shock.

and CUMFORT (I've cum fort day) beating was pretty rife too.

Hi Linda, no offence, but there wasn't the intensity about the footie there that there was in other places... IMO! (btw, tell Ted that I played junior football with a certain Mr Cunnington )

I never saw a deal of trouble at Cleggy, nor even felt any tension... and you could cut that with a knife at Wigan sometimes.

Maybe it was because we used to get there and go straight in, whereas at other places there was often time to be killed.

[Guest]

Major link between The Wheel and Football Hoolies was the Suedeheads...

My Pa was a Skinhead in '69, locked up for fighting in general around 1971 (Football matches, Fairgrounds, Bus Stops at kicking out time) and started going to nighters in 73 upon his release.

And dont forget toilets became a place to go to beat the queers (sorry if thats an unacceptable term to use now) But probably loads of innocent guys got a pasteing just for using the wrong loos!

I know theres not a lot of association between NS and hooliganism there but for some it was a favourite pastime at chucking out time. It was a much harder world then and you HAD to be on your toes.

No doubt about it!

[Briles]

Paul

I come from the same town as you, and think it's a fair question you ask.

My contribution to this is to say that during the 70's footy violence, and inter town violence from my own experience were both rife. Coach loads of lads on stag do's in a town with a different accent would inevitably be involved in large scale disturbances. Some of these lads were soulies, some not. I've bought records from one of the worst (or best) hoolies in the country in our town. I've been to Blackpool Mecca and it's kicked of big time every week. Not all involved were soulies, many on the free bus went for the fight. Just a coincidence in timing IMO. most of my old mates are soulies and have at some stage been involved, but we come from a small feicely proud, and working class town mate. Not sure if it's the same nationwide, though Garv is from the South, so sounds likely.

Best

Dave

[Winnie :-)]

What you're reading Paul is a fairly accurate account of things.

On the other hand a lot of people conveniently gloss over the scene of those times, pretending everybody was mates, you could leave your bag or records unguarded etc... all a load of bollocks.

Yes they kicked shit out of eachother on Saturday afternoons... and they'd do it again before the nighter if they got the chance. There was often a reception party at Manchester or Wigan station and if you had the wrong accent or wore a scarf, you needed to look out!

I always thought one of the reasons Cleethorpes was so much more relaxed was that there was no football in the town, whereas in the north west or Stoke or even Peterborough the football tribalism carried on into the soul scene... not necessarily in the nighters, you needed to watch yourself outside before the start though.

I reckon I was 15 when I first went to a nighter, and that wasn't unusual. I do agree with Karen, though, that the perception of drug use is overexaggerated. When it was the material from chemists, not everybody could get it, and when the, erm, custom-made stuff became available some of us avoided it like the plague

============

Sorry mate, dont think the two scenes did go hand in hand. They were happening simultaneously which is different. Maybe Andy yourself anybody had run ins with punks and skins, but not at nighters, once you got there differences in general were forgotten. Maybe you think I'm looking at things through rose coloured specs, but I never got asked "The time" at a nighter, whilst when I went to footie nobody ever seemed to have a watch

Winnie:-)

[Guest dundeedavie]

yeah loads of ex footies on here , and it's good that we can all sit in the same venues without battering each other , hell i can even go to aberdeen without getting a kicking these days lolol...

was remarked upon in a manchester promoters house when 3 of us were in the same room in perfect harmony

Davie (former Dundee Utility with the scars to prove it )

[Winnie :-)]

And dont forget toilets became a place to go to beat the queers (sorry if thats an unacceptable term to use now) But probably loads of innocent guys got a pasteing just for using the wrong loos!

I know theres not a lot of association between NS and hooliganism there but for some it was a favourite pastime at chucking out time. It was a much harder world then and you HAD to be on your toes.

No doubt about it!

=============

Soulies went 'queer bashing'? Sorry only morons did that, and whilst the scene isn't devoid of them it was certainly not over-run IMO.

Winnie:-)

[Guest]

=============

Soulies went 'queer bashing'? Sorry only morons did that, and whilst the scene isn't devoid of them it was certainly not over-run IMO.

Winnie:-)

I think, although I could be wrong, that he is talking about the days of The Wheel Win, from what I have been told it was a much rougher place than say Wigan

[Guest gibber]

Some good refernces to hooliganism in the book 'crakin' up'

Met the auther a few years ago when he was doing a book promotion at the kLV.

Heard a story that someone was going to make a film based on the book, can anybody confirm?

[Guest]

=============

Soulies went 'queer bashing'? Sorry only morons did that, and whilst the scene isn't devoid of them it was certainly not over-run IMO.

Winnie:-)

Nope your adding words to my words Winnie!

I said-

I know theres not a lot of association between NS and hooliganism there but for some it was a favourite pastime at chucking out time.

Referee!

Edited March 29, 2006 by Mr M

[Winnie :-)]

I think, although I could be wrong, that he is talking about the days of The Wheel Win, from what I have been told it was a much rougher place than say Wigan

============

Never went to the wheel Karen so can't comment, but did do the skinhead/suedehead/smoothie era which for me was between 70 and 75ish and don't remember the two scenes being connected. Maybe because I didn't get into the soul scene properly till around 73 and I was still young(ish) then so maybe missed out on the violence??

[Winnie :-)]

Nope your adding words to my words Winnie!

I said-

I know theres not a lot of association between NS and hooliganism there but for some it was a favourite pastime at chucking out time.

Referee!

==========

Soz, saw the reply was to pikey post, and it looked like you'd linked the two. My apologies

Winnie:-)

[Guest]

==========

Soz, saw the reply was to pikey post, and it looked like you'd linked the two. My apologies

Winnie:-)

Accepted

[Guest garv]

Evening sir, hope you are well?

When you say you feel the two scenes didnt go hand in hand, would I be right in thinking you mean in the 80s rather than 70s?

Hi Dave ............. what i mean is that youth culture had many crossover points ( soul, football, scooters etc etc) but not set in stone.

[Dave]

============

Sorry mate, dont think the two scenes did go hand in hand. They were happening simultaneously which is different. Maybe Andy yourself anybody had run ins with punks and skins, but not at nighters, once you got there differences in general were forgotten. Maybe you think I'm looking at things through rose coloured specs, but I never got asked "The time" at a nighter, whilst when I went to footie nobody ever seemed to have a watch

Winnie:-)

Bollocks... the two were inseparable.

I didnt say it kicked off IN the nighters, though didn't you or any of your mates ever get rolled for gear in the bogs? Don't think that happened so much to the home-town lads

Like I said, it was on the trains and at the stations, and while you were killing that odd hour before the nighter started.

Inside differences may have been put aside once the music started... as long as you and your mates kept yourselves to yourselves.

I've even seen scraps inside and outside EASC events between lads from towns 20 miles apart.

As for your specs, some on here might say that you do have a slightly "affectionate" recollection of things "old" and "traditional".... cue Bladeforlife

[Pete S]

Thing was guys DID go round like that With the makeup ,Ball bags,White Jeans,Braces, Docs Black not ox blood or cherry red,

And the Beat the shit out of him just for fun attitude was there.

I saw this before it was banned Sneaking in at the backdoor at our local cinema and Kubric swore never to relese it to the cinemas again in protest! because of that!

At the time it was generally accepted And reported to be the cause of an increase of violence amongst teenage gangs!

One more point i have probably seen this film half a dozen times since then and everyone has been cut! unlike the first relese which went out in its entirety

So it was a factor in furthering hooliganism.

There are no cuts in that film Mr M, if there are, you tell me where they are. I had this in the very early 80's and it was from a German cinema print and it's the same version that you can get on dvd now.

[Guest]

There are no cuts in that film Mr M, if there are, you tell me where they are. I had this in the very early 80's and it was from a German cinema print and it's the same version that you can get on dvd now.

The Scene with the rocking piece of porcelain ive never seen that scene complete i had it on a german video release and ive watched it on DVD both were cut. But i will have a copy off you if you have one

[Winnie :-)]

Bollocks... the two were inseparable.

I didnt say it kicked off IN the nighters, though didn't you or any of your mates ever get rolled for gear in the bogs? Don't think that happened so much to the home-town lads

Like I said, it was on the trains and at the stations, and while you were killing that odd hour before the nighter started.

Inside differences may have been put aside once the music started... as long as you and your mates kept yourselves to yourselves.

I've even seen scraps inside and outside EASC events between lads from towns 20 miles apart.

As for your specs, some on here might say that you do have a slightly "affectionate" recollection of things "old" and "traditional".... cue Bladeforlife

=================

I've read that in a book somewhere, can't remember what it was called though

Nope never got 'rolled' for gear and never had problems inside a nighter, which enforces the case that it was outside IMO. Plenty of times at footie got into probs cos of my accent/attitude though

Seen more scraps/bother this year than ever before, some on here might think others can't see the wood for the trees, cue the 'stoke massive crew'

Winnie:-)

PS. Might not always agree with Steve, but always read what he has to say with interest and a certain amount of appreciation.

[Winnie :-)]

The Scene with the rocking piece of porcelain ive never seen that scene complete i had it on a german video release and ive watched it on DVD both were cut. But i will have a copy off you if you have one

=============

The giant phallus? Sure it's in my copy, will check when I get it back, could be a while though lent it to someone 3 years ago, don't even think she watched it :-) Bloody devotchkas

Winnie:-)

[Paulw]

A lot of 'soulies' 70's & 80's were involved with the football violence, no doubt about it. I found that a good number of faces from all-nighters were regulars at club and country tear-ups.( I know some of those from South Wales who went to the England away games because of the better 'atmosphere').I recall what for me were the defining moments which snapped me out of it: when it started getting nasty on the racial front, black players heckled at England games, how can that go hand in hand with the Northern Soul scene? It can't and it didn't for me. I don't regret 1 minute of the football thing because that's how it was at the time.And some of my best friends now are people who I wouldn't have even spoken to way back when. I think it's called "growing up".

[Dave]

=================

I've read that in a book somewhere, can't remember what it was called though

Nope never got 'rolled' for gear and never had problems inside a nighter, which enforces the case that it was outside IMO. Plenty of times at footie got into probs cos of my accent/attitude though

Seen more scraps/bother this year than ever before, some on here might think others can't see the wood for the trees, cue the 'stoke massive crew'

Winnie:-)

PS. Might not always agree with Steve, but always read what he has to say with interest and a certain amount of appreciation.

Well Andy's already alluded to what went on at the stations, and that was often down to accents as well.....and I'd bet theres a few on here who could recount being "relieved" of various possessions, but there's no point in labouring that one.

Can't say I've noticed a lot of "scraps" on here and to me "the stoke massive crew" were the several thousand who sang "Delilah" as one in the 70s and made you involuntarily check where the nearest exit was

Edited March 29, 2006 by Dave

[Winnie :-)]

A lot of 'soulies' 70's & 80's were involved with the football violence, no doubt about it. I found that a good number of faces from all-nighters were regulars at club and country tear-ups.( I know some of those from South Wales who went to the England away games because of the better 'atmosphere').I recall what for me were the defining moments which snapped me out of it: when it started getting nasty on the racial front, black players heckled at England games, how can that go hand in hand with the Northern Soul scene? It can't and it didn't for me. I don't regret 1 minute of the football thing because that's how it was at the time.And some of my best friends now are people who I wouldn't have even spoken to way back when. I think it's called "growing up".

=============

Paul, not saying the two elements didn't walk the same path, but at a nighter people adopted a different attitude, how many tear ups did you notice on the nighter scene? Yet put the two crews in a footballing arena..........

Winnie:-)

[SteveM]

=================

I've read that in a book somewhere, can't remember what it was called though

Nope never got 'rolled' for gear and never had problems inside a nighter, which enforces the case that it was outside IMO. Plenty of times at footie got into probs cos of my accent/attitude though

Seen more scraps/bother this year than ever before, some on here might think others can't see the wood for the trees, cue the 'stoke massive crew'

Winnie:-)

PS. Might not always agree with Steve, but always read what he has to say with interest and a certain amount of appreciation.

Not a direct reply to Winnies post, but as Andy and Dave say, Wigan was never the bastion of love and peace that legend has it. Thas not to say of course that everybody suffered the robbings (called taxing today ) that took place. Arriving in Mnchester on the train from Sheffield could be hairy, but generally the uninitiated and naive were the victims. Wigan locals were a more long lasting threat than the punks, who if I remember correctly were seen of relatively quickly. Remember punks, hippies blah blah blah tended not to attend football in numbers, where as quite a few soul fans, originally from the mod scene, did. Its what you did as a young man. Or what some of us did.

As for major football related violence, Sheffield United had a large following on the NS scene early eighties. A major disturbance happened between the BBC and Hulls boys whereby several of the Hull lot, who originally got on with the Blades lads, needed hospital treatment. (Story behind it all ) Steve Cowans, a nationally known hooligan, wrote about it in his book ' Blades Business Crew' but wrongly attributed it to a nighter at Samanthas. It was actually at Derby assembly rooms. Anybody remember that ? Thats the only major ruck that I remember, but I didn't go everywhere. I'd be suprised if it was the only occurence.

Andy and the Manchester lads mst have seen similar happennigs.Sheffield, Stoke, Wolvo, Manchester.Leed Lincoln Hull and grimsby.

North East etc, who had loads of soul devotees.and all who had major

hooligan firms around the time

No glorification here. Just what happened.

[Guest]

There are no cuts in that film Mr M, if there are, you tell me where they are. I had this in the very early 80's and it was from a German cinema print and it's the same version that you can get on dvd now.

Kubric Launched A Clockwork Orange in the UK and it was fairly quickly taken out of the cinemas,

Through public concern It was that scene in particular that caused most of the controversy Kubric refused to cut it swearing never to release it again in the UK, The German Video release isnt in its fullest either where Alex Smashes it into her Thats Cut Short 100% deffinate it looked too real and graphic. In the vidi and Dvd it goes black just for a moment as she sees Alex with a smile pile it into her,killing her! Well there was more in that Scene and the German copy is the watered down version as is the DVD .

[Winnie :-)]

Well Andy's already alluded to what went down on at the stations, and that was often down to accents as well.....and I'd bet theres a few on here who could recount being "relieved" of various possessions, but there's no point in labouring that one.

Can't say I've noticed a lot of "scraps" on here and to me "the stoke massive crew" were the several thousand who sang "Delilah" as one in the 70s and made you involuntarily check where the nearest exit was

=============

Whilst I agree it's possible to be both a football hooligan and a soulie, I would say they are two separate mentalities governed by whatever environment you happened to find yourself in. Just my opinion mate, but I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one

Winnie:-)

[Paulw]

=============

Paul, not saying the two elements didn't walk the same path, but at a nighter people adopted a different attitude, how many tear ups did you notice on the nighter scene? Yet put the two crews in a footballing arena..........

Winnie:-)

Winnie, never saw a tear-up at a nighter on a par with a Saturday afternoon one. I agree with what you say,same people, different venues...

But how to explain it.. :fool:

[Winnie :-)]

Not a direct reply to Winnies post, but as Andy and Dave say, Wigan was never the bastion of love and peace that legend has it. Thas not to say of course that everybody suffered the robbings (called taxing today ) that took place. Arriving in Mnchester on the train from Sheffield could be hairy, but generally the uninitiated and naive were the victims. Wigan locals were a more long lasting threat than the punks, who if I remember correctly were seen of relatively quickly. Remember punks, hippies blah blah blah tended not to attend football in numbers, where as quite a few soul fans, originally from the mod scene, did. Its what you did as a young man. Or what some of us did.

As for major football related violence, Sheffield United had a large following on the NS scene early eighties. A major disturbance happened between the BBC and Hulls boys whereby several of the Hull lot, who originally got on with the Blades lads, needed hospital treatment. (Story behind it all ) Steve Cowans, a nationally known hooligan, wrote about it in his book ' Blades Business Crew' but wrongly attributed it to a nighter at Samanthas. It was actually at Derby assembly rooms. Anybody remember that ? Thats the only major ruck that I remember, but I didn't go everywhere. I'd be suprised if it was the only occurence.

Andy and the Manchester lads mst have seen similar happennigs.Sheffield, Stoke, Wolvo, Manchester.Leed Lincoln Hull and grimsby.

North East etc, who had loads of soul devotees.and all who had major

hooligan firms around the time

No glorification here. Just what happened.

============

Not claiming nothing ever happened, isolated incedents can always be sited. Had lost touch with the northern scene in the 8Ts so can't comment. One thing I would ask though Steve, are you saying the 'Wigan locals' as in local Wigan soulies, or 'Wigan locals' as in people not necessarily associated with the soul scene but came from Wigan?

Winnie:-)