Aggrieved: Warrington

[Barry]

Before I start I must say...

Happy Christmas to the best board I have been a member of ....this is a belter of a family.

Anyway - I've had a few and I've been a tad quiet of late, so here we go...

As a lad I depended on the blokes that played the music to me, to guide my way to hearing quality sounds.

Yeah....they did a great job,,,I have in my head some of the most wonderful soul productions and I am eternally greatful for that,

But,

And it's a fairly big 'But'....

Since the NS scene has been on the wain, I appear to have had my ears opened to some utterly amazing tracks that I have never heard on the dancefloors I inhabited for a good many years.

Now - do I blame this on the jocks or the dancefloor?

As I've looked back over the years, a deal of these tracks have apparently have been 'tape swappers' faves for years.

So, does this prove that the dancefloor at any given time, as well as giving us some stunning left-field moments in NS history,has in other ways stunted the quality and therefore the growth of quality soul music?

I, of course do understand that jocks in general are forward-looking, they have to be - you have to paint your own picture.

This also brings up another issue - collectors always get bad press about them maybe not making the best jocks - well it seems to me that the collectors have had more of a clue about the 'hidden' tracks over the years than the jocks that I have been in front of,

Don't take this as a slate to all the quality jocks I have danced to, it most certainly is not - I am eternally greatful for the wonderful records that I have been a party to both on the dancefloor and that have been brought to my attention - but I have been niggled for years about the fact that I have heard sooooo many fucking great records over the last ten years that I never heard on NS dancefloors in the 80's and 90's.

ps

I know where I stand on this - I just thought it woud give us summat to talk about

Edited December 26, 2012 by Barry

[Barry]

I've just re-read it...and it comes across a tad ropey...but so am I presently ...but I think it conveys my point well enough.

[Peter99]

Happy Christmas Barry

I think you are correct - in a very simple and pissed up context there has been northern soul and soul. Now I admit to being not well placed to know what has and hasn't been played over the years - due to my dropping out of attending all nighters and things generally. But I do have a view. And I think I know a good un when I hear it.

To make it easier for back sliders like me sen - have you a few to get us started with?

Peter

Edited December 26, 2012 by Peter99

[Premium Stuff]

You make some excellent points Barry - and I think the whole Stafford thing - Guy and Keb most obviously - makes the point very well too. Taking collectors' records to the dancefloor.

Most of the records I have ever really loved I heard through tape swapping etc. They were never the big (pre-Stafford) records.

But then again maybe I just don't like what the masses like - don't like mainstream dancefloor records, or just what is in fashion? Another chance to use the sheep smiley but in a different way (hey Bob - here's the sheep again!)

Cheers

Richard

Edited December 26, 2012 by Premium Stuff

[Barry]

I haven't right now Pete - too much thought required - I started my soul career at Wigan but from '82 onwards, after Rotherham, I followed what was at the time current soul venues, be that independant, jazz-funk, two step etc etc whilst keeping my love and attendance at NS venues....so I think I have a fairly rounded view of it all,,,,but I'm still hearing tracks now, that I never heard then - from all era's - that I know woud have blown me tits off back then...AND I WANT TO KNOW WHO'S FAULT IT IS!!!

[Barry]

@ Richard>

Hi mate - I think you like what you like, yes - wether I could say I don't like what the mainstream likes, I don't know.

I buy some right obscure shit - some reet deep Southern shit - some left field soul....but have I had a better time on a dancefloor than dancing to The Exciters - 'Blowin' Up My Mind'?

Debateable!?

(And I understand I'd be deabting it with myself )

[Barry]

..and why have I spelt 'grateful'...'greatful' ??

Twice!??

[Peter99]

I haven't right now Pete - too much thought required - I started my soul career at Wigan but from '82 onwards, after Rotherham, I followed what was at the time current soul venues, be that independant, jazz-funk, two step etc etc whilst keeping my love and attendance at NS venues....so I think I have a fairly rounded view of it all,,,,but I'm still hearing tracks now, that I never heard then - from all era's - that I know woud have blown me tits off back then...AND I WANT TO KNOW WHO'S FAULT IT IS!!!

LOL

Yep, some bastrards gonna have to pay mate. I know exactly what you mean. We were fed some right shit at times - absolute shit. It's hard to define isn't it - but I like some more down tempo soul that would never have been played back in the day - stuff that if you have a feeling for is much more uptempo than is immmediately obvious. Does that make sense? Stuff that you can feel - and move your head to.

Peter

[Peter99]

Stuff like this

and this

[Barry]

LOL

Yep, some bastrards gonna have to pay mate. I know exactly what you mean. We were fed some right shit at times - absolute shit. It's hard to define isn't it - but I like some more down tempo soul that would never have been played back in the day - stuff that if you have a feeling for is much more uptempo than is immmediately obvious. Does that make sense? Stuff that you can feel - and move your head to.

Peter

I swear I'm not being argumentative here Pete - I honestly don't feel I'e been fed that much shit over the yeras...and the times I may have been (eg - Arthur - Mingko ) - it's been nothing but a learning curve.

I think that on the whole the floor has dictated the curve of the ball....but sometimes I feel that the jocks have under-estimated the intelligenge of that same floor.

[Barry]

I swear I'm not being argumentative here Pete - I honestly don't feel I'e been fed that much shit over the yeras...and the times I may have been (eg - Arthur - Mingko ) - it's been nothing but a learning curve.

I think that on the whole the floor has dictated the curve of the ball....but sometimes I feel that the jocks have under-estimated the intelligenge of that same floor.

Yeah...that's eaxactly what I'm getting at.

[MrsWoodsrules]

Barry, you probably took the same route as me after Wigan, Cassinellis in Standish, Studio In Nantwich, Berlin in Manchester.

I got into Joy Division, then weed, then acid, made loads of mistakes, but you still end up a rounded human being 30 years on with loads to contribute. But we all get back to our basics, which for me is that driving beat, our youth, label it what you want, but the good thing is, that rhythm is always still there to re-discover, you can't have it all, always something new to hear and get into.

Have a good one Barry, (fellow Warringtonian.)

Aid.

[Premium Stuff]

..and why have I spelt 'grateful'...'greatful' ??

Twice!??

Probably because that's how the Brothers of Soul 'I'd Be Grateful' is mis-spelled on the original styrene version - or something like that - I'm gonna have to check that now

Cheers

Richard

Edited December 26, 2012 by Premium Stuff

[Barry]

Barry, you probably took the same route as me after Wigan, Cassinellis in Standish, Studio In Nantwich, Berlin in Manchester.

I got into Joy Division, then weed, then acid, made loads of mistakes, but you still end up a rounded human being 30 years on with loads to contribute. But we all get back to our basics, which for me is that driving beat, our youth, label it what you want, but the good thing is, that rhythm is always still there to re-discover, you can't have it all, always something new to hear and get into.

Have a good one Barry, (fellow Warringtonian.)

Aid.

You too Hilda

[Peter99]

I swear I'm not being argumentative here Pete - I honestly don't feel I'e been fed that much shit over the yeras...and the times I may have been (eg - Arthur - Mingko ) - it's been nothing but a learning curve.

I think that on the whole the floor has dictated the curve of the ball....but sometimes I feel that the jocks have under-estimated the intelligenge of that same floor.

You can be argumentative Barry - just need to be clear about what we're arguing about. If anything.

I just like good soul music - where ever it comes from, and by whom really. Old stuff, new stuff, retro stuff - if I can feel it it's good. Another example - bit old now, is the Chocolate Factory album. Is there a bad track on there - wonderful soul music, which I'm pleased to have bought and bought into at the time. Maybe a bad example for a more up to date geezer like yer sen.

P

[Barry]

Probably because that's how the Brothers of Soul 'I'd Be Greatful' is mis-spelled on the organ e styrene version - or something like that - I'm gonna have to check that now

Cheers

Richard

Don't tell me Rich....on last nights Channel 4 Top 30 Comedy's....you put the I.T. Crowd over Father Ted?

[Barry]

You can be argumentative Barry - just need to be clear about what we're arguing about. If anything.

I just like good soul music - where ever it comes from, and by whom really. Old stuff, new stuff, retro stuff - if I can feel it it's good. Another example - bit old now, is the Chocolate Factory album. Is there a bad track on there - wonderful soul music, which I'm pleased to have bought and bought into at the time. Maybe a bad example for a more up to date geezer like yer sen.

P

Peter - firstly, you're a top bloke...but I'm not up to date....I'm just soulfully eternal.

[Premium Stuff]

Don't tell me Rich....on last nights Channel 4 Top 30 Comedy's....you put the I.T. Crowd over Father Ted?

No mate - would never do that - but how sad is this ...

I need to get a life

Edited December 26, 2012 by Premium Stuff

[Barry]

No mate - would never do that - but how sad is this ...

I need to get a life

Now, Rich - this is another thing that I find odd - people kind of knocking themselves for liking 'whatever it may be' - it's neither good nor bad, it don't make you look neither either - it will simply appeal, or not, to the relevant peope that it will appeal to.

Love what you love, bring it up when relevant (which you have done) and stand behind it like a bastard when you need to.

Amen

[Citizen P]

I haven't right now Pete - too much thought required - I started my soul career at Wigan but from '82 onwards, after Rotherham, I followed what was at the time current soul venues, be that independant, jazz-funk, two step etc etc whilst keeping my love and attendance at NS venues....so I think I have a fairly rounded view of it all,,,,but I'm still hearing tracks now, that I never heard then - from all era's - that I know woud have blown me tits off back then...AND I WANT TO KNOW WHO'S FAULT IT IS!!!

The DJ's only playing for himself..

Play something we know...

I didn't spend £2.50 to listen to this shite...

is possibly a start..

[Barry]

The DJ's only playing for himself..

Play something we know...

I didn't spend £2.50 to listen to this shite...

is possibly a start..

Horses for courses ay mate?

And with out wanking meself off, and prob a lot to do with the period I djed to (from) - I've always, but always played a perfect set as to both invigorate and move the music and the floor forward.

I was going to put a wink there but I think I'd be doing myself a dis-service.

[Barry]

[Chatty]

LOL

Yep, some bastrards gonna have to pay mate. I know exactly what you mean. We were fed some right shit at times - absolute shit. It's hard to define isn't it - but I like some more down tempo soul that would never have been played back in the day - stuff that if you have a feeling for is much more uptempo than is immmediately obvious. Does that make sense? Stuff that you can feel - and move your head to.

Peter

It makes me smile when I read quite often how we were "fed some right shit" back in the day, but surely somebody must have been dancing/ listening/showing some sort of appreciation of said shit or it wouldn't have lasted more than a spin or two at the most. Or can the blame be laid at the feet of "the divs" who invaded "the scene" when the genie escaped out of the bottle?

[Guest Gogs]

Okey i'm probably going to open up a large can of worms here but do i care No. In my opinion there are too many different catergories, Northern soul, oldies, Modern, Cross-over & Motown to name but a few, and not enough clubs playing across the board SOUL. People need to hear the tracks that they are not so familiar with instead of going to nites that play all the same stuff month in month out, common get out of your comfort zone for a change.

[Peter99]

It makes me smile when I read quite often how we were "fed some right shit" back in the day, but surely somebody must have been dancing/ listening/showing some sort of appreciation of said shit or it wouldn't have lasted more than a spin or two at the most. Or can the blame be laid at the feet of "the divs" who invaded "the scene" when the genie escaped out of the bottle?

Of course people were dancing to plenty of shit - encouraged in the main by decent gear. Not everyone though eh, and too easy and to blame "the divs" .

[Dave Pinch]

It makes me smile when I read quite often how we were "fed some right shit" back in the day, but surely somebody must have been dancing/ listening/showing some sort of appreciation of said shit or it wouldn't have lasted more than a spin or two at the most. Or can the blame be laid at the feet of "the divs" who invaded "the scene" when the genie escaped out of the bottle?

the same divs who are invading it in 2012

[SOULCENTRAL]

Before I start I must say...

Happy Christmas to the best board I have been a member of ....this is a belter of a family.

Anyway - I've had a few and I've been a tad quiet of late, so here we go...

As a lad I depended on the blokes that played the music to me, to guide my way to hearing quality sounds.

Yeah....they did a great job,,,I have in my head some of the most wonderful soul productions and I am eternally greatful for that,

But,

And it's a fairly big 'But'....

Since the NS scene has been on the wain, I appear to have had my ears opened to some utterly amazing tracks that I have never heard on the dancefloors I inhabited for a good many years.

Now - do I blame this on the jocks or the dancefloor?

As I've looked back over the years, a deal of these tracks have apparently have been 'tape swappers' faves for years.

So, does this prove that the dancefloor at any given time, as well as giving us some stunning left-field moments in NS history,has in other ways stunted the quality and therefore the growth of quality soul music?

I, of course do understand that jocks in general are forward-looking, they have to be - you have to paint your own picture.

This also brings up another issue - collectors always get bad press about them maybe not making the best jocks - well it seems to me that the collectors have had more of a clue about the 'hidden' tracks over the years than the jocks that I have been in front of,

Don't take this as a slate to all the quality jocks I have danced to, it most certainly is not - I am eternally greatful for the wonderful records that I have been a party to both on the dancefloor and that have been brought to my attention - but I have been niggled for years about the fact that I have heard sooooo many fucking great records over the last ten years that I never heard on NS dancefloors in the 80's and 90's.

ps

I know where I stand on this - I just thought it woud give us summat to talk about

HI BARRY,

YOU'VE ONLY HAD A FEW MATE? :lol: I PROPOSE A RECOUNT!!!!

Seriously though a great post. This should get people talking. I really dont think you can blame any one section of people be it the dj's or the dancefloor.

It is clear that the main reason for the lack of quality soul being introduced to your ears in your early formative years of what is regarded as the northern soul scene, was the trait and sheer demand for uptempo stomping DANCE music. This was driven by the floor,the dj's and collectors alike. So bandage your wrists and don the boxing gloves as you have plenty of people to take to task for starving you of the quality soul that you so desire :g: .

Happy new year pal and keep posting

regards ROY

[wiganpotter]

Barry, you probably took the same route as me after Wigan, Cassinellis in Standish, Studio In Nantwich, Berlin in Manchester.

I got into Joy Division, then weed, then acid, made loads of mistakes, but you still end up a rounded human being 30 years on with loads to contribute. But we all get back to our basics, which for me is that driving beat, our youth, label it what you want, but the good thing is, that rhythm is always still there to re-discover, you can't have it all, always something new to hear and get into.

Have a good one Barry, (fellow Warringtonian.)

Aid.

Cassinellis now there was many a ground breaking funky tune played then ( we are talking about friday night`s ? ) In the days I could remember a tune /artist /label without writing it down lol , the studio at Nantwich ,79 -80 ish I think I frequented ??? not as ground breaking as "nellis " but many a fine night spent on the floor ........dancin !

Friday nights at Cassanellis was free entry ,if you came in fancy dress , again you might have to correct me as my memories shite ! oldtimers disease !

WiganBrian .

[Guest Matt Male]

The DJ's only playing for himself..

Play something we know...

I didn't spend £2.50 to listen to this shite...

is possibly a start..

'Play to the floor' is another one. Shit scared DJs 'playing to the floor' have killed the wider northern scene.

[Guest gordon russell]

Stuff like this

and this

these two tunes are not for playing out.........surely that is obvious....you may love em,they mat be great.......but not for playing out.....and if people try to as from time to time they do....the result is not good..........they're to be enjoyed at home with other stuff of the same ilk

[Keithw]

too many oldies only events playing the same stuff

trouble is that there the venues people are going because there the fullest

maybe people should go an oldies event one week and a across the board event the next

one for dancing / one for dancing and listening

lots of across the board doo,s fold because people dont give tunes they dont know a try

just because floor isnt rammed doesnt mean the set d js play are crap

lots feel under pressure by promotors and take the oldies only route

[Guest welshruss]

Barry how are you mate - well i hope,and all the best for the New Year.......(see you at the Grange again,same time same place next year)

I,ve always enjoyed your posts,they make me laugh,they are very debateable,and thought provoking.That said..

I did Massey,s BacktoBlack night Boxing day and played some very obscure album tracks (coz thats my thing)....and the floor was full - rammed, i kid you not (ask him)..Now my point is - i see nothing wrong with unknown stuff being played,but,if your DJing with it,its got to have that beat.or at least make someone tap there toes !

So keep on digging mate - keep on playing them out - just have fun,sod what people say.Do it.

It doesnt matter one shite who,s to blame...just have fun and enjoy it.

Keep the posts coming mate - Happy New Year.

[Guest]

One answer... Speed was better in those days.. It's not the same on Coke or E's.. Totally different buzz. And those that just drink or do fck all totally different again.

[Peter99]

these two tunes are not for playing out.........surely that is obvious....you may love em,they mat be great.......but not for playing out.....and if people try to as from time to time they do....the result is not good..........they're to be enjoyed at home with other stuff of the same ilk

Says who? It's all about opinion isn't it.

Peter

Edited December 28, 2012 by Peter99

[Guest Dave Turner]

It's all about opinion though isn't it.

You're right mate. Opinions, different places, different faces and different tastes in soul music.

Nowadays I wouldn't bother going out to places that weren't prepared to play tracks like the George Jackson & Jerry Butler you posted up.

[Ian Dewhirst]

It's actually a complex question Barry. One of the reasons I decided to seek avenues anew way back in '75 was because I felt I was becoming personally restricted by the confines of the Northern scene at the time. I was discovering other exciting music which I enjoyed but was unable to express as a DJ at the time - and I was a DJ who straddled both traditional Northern Soul and contemporary Soul releases, so it's not like I was that restricted in the grand scheme of things. However, in 1975, even if you were a name DJ, there were still expectations for you to play sets that would fulfil the expectations of the majority of the crowd. So most people would reasonably expect a set which would include the majority of my personal big records interspersed with other records which I could fit in that would still keep the majority of the crowd happy. Bear in mind, that even on a normal Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday we'd still be getting 200+ at most gigs.

So in an average 1.5-2.0 hour set, there really wasn't that much scope to experiment too deeply.

Plus, forget what we now call 'crossover' back then. I can tell you that there was zero appetite for anything other than 4/4 at the time. The slowest records were in the vein of Jodi Mathis, Sheila Anthony, Ila Vann, Anne Sexton, James Fountain etc, etc. Steppers and Rare Groove mid-tempos didn't start getting popular until the mid 80's (from memory via Kev Edwards' club in Warrington Barry?).

So it's difficult to apportion 'blame' for wondering why you never heard certain killers at specific times. It all depended on the scene you were on really. The most mind-blowing musical experiences in my life came from a wide range of sources across several different scenes, several different decades and in several different countries. I mean, I'm pretty musically educated but every so often I hear a stone KILLER and wonder how come I never heard it before over 40 odd years. Life's full of surprises and that's the way it should be.

Ian D

[Guest gordon russell]

Says who? It's all about opinion isn't it.

Peter

Because this type of record played at a dance venue is the kiss of death....take it from someone who attends dance venues........as apposed to sitting at home.....it ain,t right.......if you think it is you must be out of touch....better still start a night up playing this stuff all night see how far you get.......like em both myself

[Guest Dave Turner]

Because this type of record played at a dance venue is the kiss of death....take it from someone who attends dance venues........as apposed to sitting at home.....it ain,t right.......if you think it is you must be out of touch....better still start a night up playing this stuff all night see how far you get.......like em both myself

But there are nights playing this kinda stuff all night. Successfully too with a rammed dancefloor most of the night. They're not Northern, Modern, or whatever nights .... simply soul nights with no tags

Stuff like ...

Freddie Hughes - I Just Found Out

Gladys Knight - It Takes A Whole Lotta Man

Darrow Fletcher - What We Gonna Do About This Mess

Bobby Moore - Can't Get Away

Lee Fields - You're The Kind Of Girl

Bettye Swann - Then You Can Tell Me Goodbye

Ann Sexton - I'm His Wife

Bobby Powell - Childhood Days

Darrow Fletcher - Secret Weapon

Doris Duke - Feet Start Walkin'

Dramatics - And I Panicked

Bobby Womack - I Don't Wanna Be Hurt

Whispers - You Can't Fight What's Right

Willie Hutch - A Love That's Worth Having

JJ Barnes - Wishful Thinking

Candi Staton - One More Hurt

September Jones - You Better Know Why

Annette Snell - You Oughta Be Here With Me

George Jackson - Victim Of A Foolish Heart

LJ Reynolds - Stop Look Over Your Past

Ann Bogus - Don't Ask Me To Love Again

Tina Bryant - Fresh Out Of Love

Curtis Mayfield - No Thing On Me

Shirley Brown - I Can't Give You Up

Paul Kelly - You Make Me Tremble

Sam Dees - Funny

Jefree - All My Loving

Ted Taylor - Farewell

Lee Reynolds - Love Comes From Above

Bobby Womack - Runaway

Inell Young - I've Never Considered

Jackie Moore - The Bridge That Lies Between Us

Bettye Swann - Time To Say Goodbye

Lamont Dozier - Can't Get Off

Impressions - Potent Love

Bobby Bland - I Wouldn't Treat A Dog

[Mike Lofthouse]

But there are nights playing this kinda stuff all night. Successfully too with a rammed dancefloor most of the night. They're not Northern, Modern, or whatever nights .... simply soul nights with no tags

Stuff like ...

Freddie Hughes - I Just Found Out

Gladys Knight - It Takes A Whole Lotta Man

Darrow Fletcher - What We Gonna Do About This Mess

Bobby Moore - Can't Get Away

Lee Fields - You're The Kind Of Girl

Bettye Swann - Then You Can Tell Me Goodbye

Ann Sexton - I'm His Wife

Bobby Powell - Childhood Days

Darrow Fletcher - Secret Weapon

Doris Duke - Feet Start Walkin'

Dramatics - And I Panicked

Bobby Womack - I Don't Wanna Be Hurt

Whispers - You Can't Fight What's Right

Willie Hutch - A Love That's Worth Having

JJ Barnes - Wishful Thinking

Candi Staton - One More Hurt

September Jones - You Better Know Why

Annette Snell - You Oughta Be Here With Me

George Jackson - Victim Of A Foolish Heart

LJ Reynolds - Stop Look Over Your Past

Ann Bogus - Don't Ask Me To Love Again

Tina Bryant - Fresh Out Of Love

Curtis Mayfield - No Thing On Me

Shirley Brown - I Can't Give You Up

Paul Kelly - You Make Me Tremble

Sam Dees - Funny

Jefree - All My Loving

Ted Taylor - Farewell

Lee Reynolds - Love Comes From Above

Bobby Womack - Runaway

Inell Young - I've Never Considered

Jackie Moore - The Bridge That Lies Between Us

Bettye Swann - Time To Say Goodbye

Lamont Dozier - Can't Get Off

Impressions - Potent Love

Bobby Bland - I Wouldn't Treat A Dog

Dave - where is this place of which you speak? Mike

[Guest Dave Turner]

Dave - where is this place of which you speak? Mike

It's a secret Mike ... just cadge a lift with those other North East lads but you'll have to sit in the back with a blindfold on, and they might go round the odd roundabout a few times so take yer dizzy pills with ya

[Guest gordon russell]

horses for courses

[Barry]

It's actually a complex question Barry.

....I know Ian.

I've got loads.

[Barry]

....I know Ian.

I've got loads.

All of which....oddly... I have the answer to.

[Barry]

(from memory via Kev Edwards' club in Warrington Barry?).

Spoke to Kev yesterday.... that lad played to more people and did more for soul in his time than a great deal of people that got more press....I'll not get into it now and Kev had/has his Demons but credit where credit is due - and very few people, you aside Ian - give Kev his due and for that I thank you. x

[Barry]

So it's difficult to apportion 'blame' for wondering why you never heard certain killers at specific times. It all depended on the scene you were on really

.

If I was a run of the mill lad Ian, I could understand what you're getting at....but I'm not,,,,I spent my life following it all, be it Kev's do's, Richard's Half Way House, Nighters, new release soul, modern, Northern etc etc.....given, I've been at a party tonight and I'm pissed and I'm trying my best not to raise the ire of the board by wanking myself off....but this is what I did, I tried my best on my meagre wage and my sharp mind to keep abreast of it all - as it ALL is what it's about - not just microcosms of the black spectrum....and thinking back to my initial question, this is not reallly I suppose a question for anyone else to reply to....therefore it is a personal statement I suppose.

There's no blame mate and I apologise if my light hearted query from the other night was asking for one to be apportioned....it is just me hurting from the fact that I have had to wait til my twilight years to hear some monstrous records....

....I just love it. x

[Barry]

Keep the posts coming mate - Happy New Year.

...of course I will Russ (it's been seven years since the lads barred me ) and to you too mate

Edited December 30, 2012 by Barry

[Barry]

I always held tight and I still to this day do so....

[Barry]

Just re-read this - apologies, as per, my late night rants do tend to be heart-felt but a tad embarrassing the night after. x

B

[Premium Stuff]

Just re-read this - apologies, as per, my late night rants do tend to be heart-felt but a tad embarrassing the night after. x

B

Don't be daft Barry - we love it

KTF

Richard

[Barry]

Don't be daft Barry - we love it

KTF

Richard

Hehe....mate! You think I'd ahve learned by now.