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John May

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How can you call that awful person Paul Weller, who jumps on any bandwagon to get noticed, the greatest British soul singer, what about people like Dusty.

I seem to have been here before about Paul Weller. two or three months ago.

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Fully agree about Weller...he's a pop singer who chooses to actually cover a few "soul" records IMO......and badly at that.

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But the topic is white soul singers & Weller has recorded some great soul tracks, i may have jumped the gun by saying he is a SOUL singer & the Jamiroqai track was being used as an example that white folks can sing soul.

Garv.

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Garv

fair point about the subject matter, I should read the title as well as the posts should know only too well that there will be variance from initial point. :rolleyes: Should say the only bit directed at you was the Weller comment, the rest of the post was referring to the large number of posts where I felt we were judging a definition of soul by our Northern Soul values. Apologies if came over a bit preachy and rereading my post Mr Weller did get it a bit tight, Im not too keen on him but he is not the worst (Mr Hucknall comes to mind)!!

As said I do get a bit frustrated when singers with feeling are called soul singers hence my gospel etc point, certainly not referring to the politics however as feel that is too personal and not relevant to here, really referring to the actual style and reason behind the difference in voices and style.

I do think some other posts emphasise my point re Northern not always being worried about soul content and suppose that worries me as if you read history that is what led to the influx of pop stompers in mid 70's. And again emphasise that I do like some blue eyed soul and have certainly danced to my share of poppier Northern (not always by white artists as others have said.). However since I am only a casual visiter to the scene these days not sure why I worry! whistling.gif

I suppose on rereading realise its only my opinion same as others so again apologise if I came over all righteous and wanky!! :thumbsup:

Cheers

Jock

PS Should say I have seen the Jam in concert!!

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There's plenty of good blue eyed soul on the scene..Righteous Brothers,

When Bobby Hatfield died about a year ago there was a slot on radio five live's Brief Lives; apparently they were perofming to a "mixed race" audience (as the Paramours) when a black chap souted out "that's righteous, man" and after that they changed their name

And if Mary O'Brien wasn't a 'soul' singer, I'm a white Irish lesbian!

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Jock.

Top man, i agree with your comments on the " pop" side of the 70`s stuff & the upside of that was Yate & the star`s n stripes crew. Having reread my first reply i think i should say sorry for bringing in the political side. Sorry. It was not my intention to offend anyone. Soul is & always will be my true love.

Garv.

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I think I'm right in saying that Simply Red's Money's Too Tight To Mention was being bought by the barrowload in US black communities until they discovered that the singer was a pasty-faced Manc ginger not a new black female artist. That says something, though I'm not sure what.

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Originally a hit for the Valentine Brothers before S. Reds cover.

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Guest micksmith

How do you know two of Epitome are black?  You can't possibly know that.  The singer is white, the producer is white, they are from New Jersey and are American-Italian.

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RIGHT PETER-MY FRIEND IN BRUSSELLS WHO'S NAME IS TIMI-WHO HAS A GOOD SOUL COLLECTION SHOWED ME A PICTURE OF THE GROUP. 2 BLACK GUYS AND I THINK 4 WHITE GUYS. PETE I'VE TOLD YOU THIS BEFORE-YOU MUST LEARN TO REMEMBER THINGS.(WHERE'S MY RECORDS-YOU SENT EM YET). ALSO I THINK THEY CAME FROM FLORIDA.

CONCERNING JOHN/WEIRDEST-THE RECORD WAS DISCOVERED BY JOHN ANDERSON. HE FOUND IT AT A BLACK GUYS HOUSE CALLED "LUCKY CORDELL".

HE WAS A BIG DJ IN THE 60s IN GARY INDIANA. HE USED TO PLAY THE LIKES OF JIMMY MACK-NOLAN CHANCE ETC IN HIS RADIO SHOWS(BLACK STATION). WHEN I MET HIM HE ASSURED ME THEY WERE BLACK.

PETE I CAN'T ANYTHING ELSE-CAUSE I'M KEEPING ALL INFO FOR MY NEXT BOOK.

"THE STRANGE WORLD OF MICK SMITH". SHOULD SELL LOADS.

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RIGHT PETER-MY FRIEND IN BRUSSELLS WHO'S NAME IS TIMI-WHO HAS A GOOD SOUL COLLECTION SHOWED ME A PICTURE OF THE GROUP. 2 BLACK GUYS AND I THINK 4 WHITE GUYS. PETE I'VE TOLD YOU THIS BEFORE-YOU MUST LEARN TO REMEMBER THINGS.(WHERE'S MY RECORDS-YOU SENT EM YET). ALSO I THINK THEY CAME FROM FLORIDA.

Load of bollocks. They are from New York, three white guys, a Chinaman and a one- legged hispanic dwarf.

You see, you don't know everything.

I'll send you a box of red and white Islands this afternoon to shut you up ok

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I think I'm right in saying that Simply Red's Money's Too Tight To Mention was being bought by the barrowload in US black communities until they discovered that the singer was a pasty-faced Manc ginger not a new black female artist. That says something, though I'm not sure what.

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Can't imagine why when they had the Valentine Bros ?

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john/weirdest are black

I knew I wasn't imagining things and that I had been told who this was years ago. Well I was by Andy Rix...John is John Hendley and no one knows who the weirdest were. Also told that according to Joey Jefferson he became mentally ill and was in a psychiatric hospital and Cal Green hadn't seen him since 1968. He is black as well whistling.gif

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O.K so this is my first input since I started the topic yesterday, and I've just spent the last 20 minutes or so reading through the replies. A big thanks to all for taking time to reply and give their opinion.

Been giving this some thought since yesterday, and although I consider myself a bit of a soul purist, and believe that soul music is Black music, I do feel that a white artist who genuinly attempts to sing Soul, and makes a good attempt without bringing the music into disripute should be given respect.

Think what got my back up at work yesterday was a guy who tried to say that Nothern soul was blue eyed soul, and that's why white people followed it and not many black people..... not correct IMO !

Once again it brings us back to that awful era of Wigan 1975 ish, when groups like Wigan Ovation, were appearing on top of the pops singing ski ing in the snow, and unfortunatly some peoples idea of Northern Soul seems to stem from that time. IMO that type of white pop trash damaged the scenes image and gave a false impression of what the music was really about, a kind of bastardization of the music if there is such a word.

I do feel that some people who have returned to the scene over the last few years still believe that the mid to late 70's somehow where the great years of the music, and alot of the tracks played at that time were by white artists. I've always rebelled against that opinion, and I do honestly believe that the best Soul records were made by black artists.........

John M

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  I do feel that some people who have returned to the scene over the last few years still believe that the mid to late 70's somehow where the great years of the music,

John M

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Sometimes it's felt like a feature length episode of Dr.Who with the Tardis arriving and the contents of Wigan Casino circa 1978 disembarking. And the rest of time since then just never happened..... or did it???

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[How about the odd ones in US top 100 soul/R&b Charts they used to feature in b&S - osmonds first 45 featured, which maybe excusable as uknown j5 ripoff , but later on the bee gees ? ]

I have a vague memory of the disco days of the Bee Gees, and hearing someone say that they were being played by black DJs in the USA. And that is how they featured in the R&B charts. Actually in the past white artistes often did appear in those charts, in the 50s Johnny Ray had Cry, and Elvis Presley, Carl Perkins and Jerry Lee Lewis also got into the R&B charts, not sure if Bill Haley did.

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  I do feel that some people who have returned to the scene over the last few years still believe that the mid to late 70's somehow where the great years of the music, and alot of the tracks played at that time were by white artists.  I've always rebelled against that opinion, and I do honestly believe that the best Soul records were made by black artists.........

John M

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I never left the scene and hand on heart I believe that 1974 -77 were the best years ever! I've never cared whether the artist was black white or purple, if I like a record then I like a record. Today I received The Magictones - How Can I Forget You (Wheelsville), I put on a tape and followed it with the fantastic Joannie Sommers Don't Pity Me...if I had to chose between the two, Joannie every time..

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Talking of naff groups...what about Black Abbotts complete with Russ  :)   whistling.gif   :)

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Good effort. What about the unlikeliest white artists who had 'genuine' (?) plays on the Northern scene? Here's a starter for 3ish...

Elvis - Rubberneckin'

Glitter Band - Makes You Blind (TUNE!!)

Tom Jones - Stop Breaking My Heart

And what was that Led Zep track? Was it Trampled Underfoot or summat??

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Disagree!

Rufus Lumley, as mentioned, plus many, many more. I personaly, love the white "beach" tunes, Oxford Nights, Athens Rogue, etc. Its the feeling and emotion put into the song, not the colour.

A lot of the white artists did not come from 'priveliged' backgrounds just because they were white. Many, especialy the italian americans grew up in ghetto surroundings too, and new tough times. Soul comes from the heart, not the skin, as many of the crap records by black artists prove!

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great Avatar!

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Shane Martin, Lynn Randell, Jay And The Americans, Jay Traynor, Joey Heatherton, Shades Of Blue, Little Richie, Bill Bush, Joey Dee, Ben Zine, Lou Roberts, Johnny Caswell,Ambassadors- Pee Vee Band, Sprial Staircase, Magnificent Men etc. etc. and the list goes on and on...............

All been played at NORTHERN venues, all packed floors, all white performers which have played their part in the history of the scene, perhaps these records should not have ever been played then....................????????

Who knows and who really cares, this topic could go on for years, basically it should be about whatever 'floats your boat' we all have different ideas of what's good and whats not, yes ethnic origin of a record is important to the SOUL purists, personally for me you can't beat black male vocal group records, Falcons, Volumes etc. but i also think Jay Traynor - Up And Over (ABC) is a fine example of a very good NORTHERN record, so who's wrong and who's right on this one, there are no winners as there is simply no argument to answer here.

Northern Soul as a scene has embraced so many different styles of music over the years and the Blue Eyed records are just a small eliment in a rather large machine and personally have their place.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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Guest Awake 502

Blue eyed soul... Is there a better track than Timi Yuro / It'll never be over for me ??

and memory jerkers from

Outsiders / Lonely man.

Larry Santos / You got me where you want me

Toni Basil / Breakaway

whistling.gif

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soul communicators

Thee midniters

oxford nights

righteous brothers

etc, etc

and when I first heard all the above I didnt know they where White, and neither would I care and I stilll dont. Northern Soul is about the 'feel' of a record; black, white, purple, '66 or '86. Its down to the 'feel'. Lets not get confussed with 'Soul' and 'Northern Soul'.

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Guest in town Mikey

Good effort. What about the unlikeliest white artists who had 'genuine' (?) plays on the Northern scene? Here's a starter for 3ish...

Elvis - Rubberneckin'

Glitter Band - Makes You Blind (TUNE!!)

Tom Jones - Stop Breaking My Heart

And what was that Led Zep track? Was it Trampled Underfoot or summat??

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Sweet - Broken Heart Attack :o :):) :o whistling.gif

Tony, Danny Wagner, what a superb record. One I dont think i will ever tire of.

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Is there a better track than Timi Yuro  /  It'll never be over for me  ??

YES THERE ARE :) To me soul music will always be about Black music.

Ok, there will always be some exceptions to the rule - but they are just that: exceptions! Bill Bush or Timi Yuro will NEVER be anything but POP music. Nothing to do with real soul music whatsoever imo :angry: 'Northern' soul? Maybe. Real soul music? Never. But the again - I'm not from the UK and I'm only 29 years old -so what do I know, right? whistling.gif

Cheers,

Christian B

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Guest in town Mikey

Christian.

When you limit yourself by placing one rule or another on your own personal taste, the only person loosing out is you. To dismiss someone like Timi Yuro as pop is fine, but loads and loads of people who love Northern Soul, will love this record. (I know I do). Anyone at the 100 club 25th anniversarry, would have seen what is really a very bizarre spectacle. A club full of 'black' music lovers, watching a white hero, cover a song by a white heroine, and bring the house to its knees. If someone wants to sit at the back like one of the 2 old guys (Stadler and Waldorf) in the muppets, and moan about the colour of the singers skin, while 99% of the others in that room are in raptures. Who are the winners??

An obvious comparison would be a rock fan, not liking Jimi Hendrix, because he is black. Or the Country and Western fans rebelling against Ray Charles' Country albums, because of the same reason.

I said earlier my fave record of all time is by a white fella. I can also remember times when both of Beverley Ann's 'Northern' tracks packed dancefloors. (I am assuming she is white)

Just relax a little, and enjoy the songs. You dont HAVE to analyse them to the Nth degree. This is supposed to be fun mate. whistling.gif

Mikey

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YES THERE ARE  :)   To me soul music will always be about Black music.

Ok, there will always be some exceptions to the rule - but they are just that: exceptions! Bill Bush or Timi Yuro will NEVER be anything but POP music. Nothing to do with real soul music whatsoever imo  :angry:  'Northern' soul? Maybe. Real soul music? Never. But the again - I'm not from the UK and I'm only 29 years old -so what do I know, right?  whistling.gif

Cheers,

Christian B

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reason mentioned the us charts earlier, at time thought if they can't suss it out what hope is there for the rest of us

:)

old question innit - what is it all about?

soul or dance music ?

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To dismiss someone like Timi Yuro as pop is fine, but loads and loads of people who love Northern Soul, will love this record. (I know I do).

Make no mistake - I do feel that people should like what they like - end of story. I also respect the fact that Timi Yuro means a lot to some of you UK soulies. What I'm saying is that Timi Yuro ain't real soul music - and it will never be imo. And even if a record like Bill Bush is played on the northern soul scene - it will NEVER become a soul record. It sounds like Georgie Fame for godness sake! Nothing wrong with fame - I do like him - but he ain't a soul artist! This does not mean that you guys can't enjoy it however. Each to their own.

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Joannie Summers over the Magictones, you need help !

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Why? I know you're joking but why does it make my taste in music worse than yours just because I prefer one record over another? Why are you in the right? IN MY OPINION the Joanie Sommers is better than the Magictones, thats all.

This is why the scene was so great in the 70's - the soul police hadn't arrested everyone. :angry:

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SOULMASTERS - I'll Be Waiting Here on RAVEN

The f**king blue eyed soul record of the moment in this hoose... dynamite.

It is blue-eyed isn't it ? smile.gif

Hammy

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I think I'm right in saying that Simply Red's Money's Too Tight To Mention was being bought by the barrowload in US black communities until they discovered that the singer was a pasty-faced Manc ginger not a new black female artist. That says something, though I'm not sure what.

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Some random thoughts...

Check your early copies of Blues and Soul and you'll find the Osmonds' "One Bad Apple" riding high in the R&B charts.

Does anyone else find the lead vocalist on the Mello Souls slightly ridiculous? Reminds me of Al Jolson.

Ironic isn't it that the two greatest Northern Soul records of all time are by Dean Parish and Paul Anka?

Forget about skin tone; vocal tone is all that matters.

Right, I'm off to start a non controversial thread!

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Ironic isn't it that the two greatest Northern Soul records of all time are by Dean Parish and Paul Anka?

They may be the two greatest northern 'soul' records ever in your opinion, but they sure ain't the two greatest SOUL records of all time smile.gif

The old 'northern soul' vs. soul debate I guess, which we won't agree on. Better leave it I guess :)

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They may be the two greatest northern 'soul' records ever in your opinion, but they sure ain't the two greatest SOUL records of all time  smile.gif

The old 'northern soul' vs. soul debate I guess, which we won't agree on. Better leave it I guess  :)

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Damn! Where's Dave Godin now we need him!?

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How anyone can say I'm On My Way isn't a soul record is beyond me.  What is it, rockabilly??

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M.O.R. pop music smile.gif No need to get offended - these are my opinons, so why give a f*** if you don't agree? <_< Each to their own, matey.

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M.O.R. pop music  smile.gif   No need to get offended - these are my opinons, so why give a f*** if you don't agree?  <_<  Each to their own, matey.

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Er, because it's a discussion board last time I looked, you know, where people express opinions - my opinion is that you are talking bollocks, that's all, doesn't mean I think you're a bad person

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How anyone can say I'm On My Way isn't a soul record is beyond me.  What is it, rockabilly??

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'Dave Spikey' isn't really soulful smile.gif - nor is the Soulmasters, but I do like the Soulmasters.

Joanie Summers is complete dogshit IMHO - sounds like Cilla Black.

Remind me who stone island is?

Hammy

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Er, because it's a discussion board last time I looked, you know, where people express opinions - my opinion is that you are talking bollocks, that's all, doesn't mean I think you're a bad person

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Er, and my opinion is that people standing up for kitchy pop-trash like Paul fucking Anka or Bill Bush are talking bollocks <_< Just MY opinion - That's all smile.gif But each to their own. It's "only" music for god's sake :)

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Er, and my opinion is that people standing up for kitchy pop-trash like Paul fucking Anka or Bill Bush are talking bollocks  <_<  Just MY opinion - That's all  smile.gif   But each to their own. It's "only" music for god's sake  :)

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Sorry, but if you dismiss the Paul Anka record out of hand like that I really don't think you understand the concept of Northern Soul, and I'm really not trying to be rude or start an argument but it's the absolute epitome of what a Northern Soul record should sound like. As is Determination by Dean Parrish. Or is what you mean that you are only into soul music per se and therefore not Northern?

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Christian B and StoneIsland; I can see where you're both coming from. This argument will never be resolved because the definition of soul is such a personal thing.

Having said that; I do agree; the Paul Anka track is the epitome of Northern (soul, or otherwise). I don't think that can be doubted.

Or can it?

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Or is what you mean that you are only into soul music per se and therefore not Northern?

I love soul music - simple as that. And no I don't like all the stuff that have been played on scene now or before. But 'northern soul' is not all about blue eyed stuff like Paul Anka, right? There have always been played some great real soul records on the scene. And I do love a lot of the stuff being played on the northern scene. Take oldies like Eddie Parker, Del-Larks, Nu-Rons etc.etc. Or for that sake: current biggies like Devotions, Sensations, Vanguards etc.etc. These are 'northern' records, but also wonderful SOUL records. Bill Bush is not a soul record however.

Edited by cC B
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What I'm saying is - in the 'old' days it didn't matter if it was by a black artist or a white artist, people didn't have the kind of mind-set they have nowadays, I'd dance to Julian Covey or The Outsiders and not realise it was different from Lou Pride...it was just a northern record. Nowadays I'd dance to the Lost Soul cos I think it's a great northern record. I wouldn't, however, dance to something like George Lemons because it's a pile of festering wank, despite it being black. So it works both ways.

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