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White Artist Soul


John May

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p.s. I don't like soul music that much. Only Northern Soul. I never listen to 'normal' soul apart from old stuff like Al Green. Deep Soul means as much to me as Pink Flord. If we are talking soul, I get all the soul I need from the Jamaican rocksteady groups like The Techniques, The Sensations and The Paragons who did Curtis Mayfield better than he did himself.

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p.s. I don't like soul music that much. Only Northern Soul. I never listen to 'normal' soul apart from old stuff like Al Green. Deep Soul means as much to me as Pink Flord.  If we are talking soul, I get all the soul I need from the Jamaican rocksteady groups like The Techniques, The Sensations and The Paragons who did Curtis Mayfield better than he did himself.

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NOW you've started something !

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I do understand your point of views. And yes of course - not all black soul records are great. But I think the scene would be a better scene if it focused on soulful qualities and not just dancing. A good dancer does not mean a good soul record etc. This is my opinion and not everybody agrees of course. And that's why there are different soul clubs out there that cares for different people. Nothing wrong there. The Lifeline allnighter is the best example for me that an northern allnighter can stick primarily to quality black real soul music and still create one hell of buzz. Respect!

Cheers,

Christian :) B

PS! My background for collecting soul music was jamaican rock-steady by the way. And those guys were SOULFUL smile.gif When I 'discovered' soul music I never could understand how the Paul Ancas got accepted on the scene.

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p.s. I don't like soul music that much. Only Northern Soul.

And I don't like northern that much. Only soul and only 'northern' when it's soulful smile.gif

Edited by cC B
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I do understand your point of views. And yes of course - not all black soul records are great. But I think the scene would be a better scene if it focused on soulful qualities and not just dancing. A good dancer does not mean a good soul record etc. This is my opinion and not everybody agrees of course. And that's why there are different soul clubs out there that cares for different people. Nothing wrong there. The Lifeline allnighter is the best example for me that an northern allnighter can stick primarily to quality black real soul music and still create one hell of buzz. Respect!

Cheers,

Christian  :)   B

PS! My background for collecting soul music was jamaican rock-steady by the way. And those guys were SOULFUL  smile.gif   When I 'discovered' soul music I never could understand how the Paul Ancas got accepted on the scene.

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I fully understand your point of view, but dancing has always been an important part of the northern scene. Why Paul Anka is singled out as an example amazes me. IMO its a great record as well as a great dancer. In these supposedly more enlightened times, records like Jerry Fuller 'I get carried away' get played. Its an out and out pop vocal and a crap dance record. Whoever first played that on the N. scene, presumably as a soul record, should watch Jerry perform it on the 'Legends of rare soul' dvd and then have a rethink about where it fits in.

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Yes Timi's What's A Matter Baby for a start  smile.gif

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Or Timi's 'I Ain't Gonna Cry No More' which is blinding in my opinion.

Christian: sorry to say this but I agree with other posters. You ARE talking bollocks. I'd bet a pound to a piss in the park that a fair few of the records you currently like, or have liked, are by white artists who have simply yet to be revealed as white...you can't ALWAYS tell someone is white just by hearing them. I was fortunate enough a while back to meet the members of Soul Bros Inc and while George Brown is as black as they come the main singer in the band (though not on 'Pyramid') was a little white guy called Charles Conrad Greenway. He used to front the band in after hours black clubs in Houston in the 60s and 70s and both George and Skipper Lee Frazier, the Texas impressario, promoter and DJ (behind the Ovide label among other things), told me an interesting and illustrative story about black/white singers. Skipper Lee would bring all the big black acts of the day down to Houston to perform and often they would go to these little local clubs for a late drink after their own show. Both said that these major acts were regularly knocked out by Charlie's voice and couldn't believe he could sing so soulfully. Skipper Lee said one time he brought Jackie Wilson over to see SBI and Jackie thought it was a wind-up - where's the real singer, it can't be that little white guy? He was respected around the Houston soul scene and known by his primarily black audience as 'the 90lb lung'.

If you want to argue with Jackie Wilson, George Brown and Skipper Lee Frasier that white soul can't be soul, best of luck to you.

I agree, btw, that MOST soul is black and that MOST white 'soul' isn't really soul and that some crap records - black and white - have been played on the northern scene over the last 30+ years but it is simply not applicable as a blanket rule.

One final note: I also detect in your remark about being 29 and not British a sort of inverted snobbery against the UK northern scene. I may be wrong, apologies if I am, though this is not a criticism of you anyway, just an observation. The northern scene has picked up a lot of this over the years - it's all about white kids, they just play pop crap, etc etc ad nauseam: I think it's time the northern scene was recognised and respected for what it has done - shine a spotlight on thousands of soul records and artists, some of them white, who would otherwise have been totally ignored and forgotten.

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You ARE talking bollocks. I'd bet a pound to a piss in the park that a fair few of the records you currently like, or have liked, are by white artists who have simply yet to be revealed as white...you can't ALWAYS tell someone is white just by hearing them.
So what? As I said in the previous mail - of course there are exceptions. Southern stuff like Little Richie etc. is great. And I have never pretended to ALLWAYS could tell if someone is white by hearing them. It doesn't take much to detect Bill Bush though smile.gif Always thought it was a bit strange that it would be considered "controversial" to prefer black soul music though. I mean c'mon soul music is primarily black music. So is rock-steady and reggae. And yes of course you will find exceptions if you dig hard enough.

I think it's time the northern scene was recognised and respected for what it has done - shine a spotlight on thousands of soul records and artists, some of them white, who would otherwise have been totally ignored and forgotten.

Of course I agree with this. Hadn't it been for the 'northern scene' I would not have heard about 99% of the records I fancy the most. That does not mean however that I'm gonna respect all the shitty stuff that has been played in the name of 'northern' :)

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Guest micksmith

p.s. I don't like soul music that much. Only Northern Soul. I never listen to 'normal' soul apart from old stuff like Al Green. Deep Soul means as much to me as Pink Flord.  If we are talking soul, I get all the soul I need from the Jamaican rocksteady groups like The Techniques, The Sensations and The Paragons who did Curtis Mayfield better than he did himself.

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COMPLETE B...LOCKS. YOU CAN'T COMPARE THE BRILLIANT CURTIS MAYFIELD WITH THAT WEST INDIAN CRAP.

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Blue eyed soul... Is there a better track than Timi Yuro  /  It'll never be over for me  ??

smile.gif

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................Baby Washington's original brown eyed version!

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Come on guys; calm down.

Music is what it is.

We've always had strong opinions about "our" music - that's long been part of the scene. But let's cut out the swearing and insults and focus on the things that unite us, eh?

Edited by Dayo
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Guest micksmith

Ex-mates  :angry:

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YOU STICK TO YOUR WHITE MUSIC. ALL THAT WEST INDIAN CRAP WAS INFLUENCED BY NEW ORLEANS SOUL(FATS DOMINO ETC) AND THE GREAT IMPRESSIONS AND IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW-THE LEAD SINGER AFTER JERRY BUTLER WAS CURTIS MAYFIELD. SO WHAT I'M REALLY SAYIN' IS THEY JUST COPIED REAL US BLACK ARTISTS-NO ORIGINALALITY AT ALL. AS FOR THESE WEST INDIAN SOUNDS BEING PLAYED ON THE SCENE-THEY SHOULD THROW 'EM ALL IN A BUCKET. NO A FIRE WOULD BE BETTER.

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You haven't got a scooby what I'm talking about. The Mayfield-penned songs were perfect for the Jamaican vocal groups and the fact is that THEY SANG THEM BETTER THAN THE IMPRESSIONS DID. I know perfectly well who the singers with the group are, if you want a pop quiz you've come to the right place, you'll slink off with your tail between your legs after your shoeing though smile.gif

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got to admit this is a good thread and does bring back memories of conversations (sometimes heated) from 1976 to a couple of months ago. r&b/soul came out of black america no argument, and there as been some outstanding white artists that either have sung soulful songs and outstanding white muscians on black labels, Steve Cropper/Duck Dunn - Stax, Joe Massina/Bob Babbitt on Motown etc etc. again no argument, but there as been a load of shyte records played on the northern scene (always hated the word northern, prefer rare soul) that are white artists, thats the crux, where people say shout purists, i just think a lot of records played have been white american pop artist Paul Anka being one (if you went up to him in 69 and said you are a great soul artist he would have had you knee capped, supposedly mafia connections) - but been played because they have been danceable. i too like some records by white artists ie the Anderson Bros. reading some of the records listed in my view with my own tastes i think are shyte and don't start me on 3rd window from the left.

its still open this debate

adios pedro

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Guest micksmith

You haven't got a scooby what I'm talking about.  The Mayfield-penned songs were perfect for the Jamaican vocal groups and the fact is that THEY SANG THEM BETTER THAN THE IMPRESSIONS DID.  I know perfectly well who the singers with the group are, if you want a pop quiz you've come to the right place, you'll slink off with your tail between your legs after your shoeing though  smile.gif

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POP QUIZ THAT SUMS YOU UP DIDN'T YOU USED TO COLLECT BOWIE STUFF. I'LL STICK TO THE SOUL QUIZ. KEEP ON POPPIN' PETE.

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There are hundreds more crap black records played on the scene than crap white records, it goes without saying if there's 30,000 black records then a good percentage are going to be shite. Here are a few to start:

the younghearts - a little togetherness

norma jenkins - the airplane song

james coit - black power

larry houston - lets spend some time together

oh sod this, it's making me queasy just thinking about that last one

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There are hundreds more crap black records played on the scene than crap white records, it goes without saying if there's 30,000 black records then a good percentage are going to be shite.  Here are a few to start:

the younghearts - a little togetherness

norma jenkins - the airplane song

james coit - black power

larry houston - lets spend some time together

oh sod this, it's making me queasy just thinking about that last one

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Dean Barlow ?

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What I'm saying is - in the 'old' days it didn't matter if it was by a black artist or a white artist, people didn't have the kind of mind-set they have nowadays,

Is it just me but didn't they play a lot of sh*te in the old days? Just an opinion, but musically the scene must be better now.

I'm with Noss on "It'll never be over", Baby Washington's better.

I danced to Paul Anka last saturday at my local soul nite, when the atmosphere is right the record really kicks ass!

Heikki

PS. We need more opinions from the "white is shite" or "I wish i was black" brigade? :P:(:(

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PS. We need more opinions from the "white is shite" or "I wish i was black" brigade?  :P   :(   :(

White music is SHITE :( C'mon - who's next? Say it loud! I'm black & I'm proud :P:(

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White music is SHITE  :P   C'mon - who's next? Say it loud! I'm black & I'm proud  :(   :(

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C'mon, James Brown did'nt think the Magnificent Men were shite did he? And what about David and the Giants, you cant tell me they dony make you wanna move?

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C'mon, James Brown did'nt think the Magnificent Men were shite did he? And what about David and the Giants, you cant tell me they dony make you wanna move?

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Magnificent who? David and what's that?? :P C'mon - where are the rest of you "black panthers" :( I'm feeling lonely on here :(

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Mmmm first time that i heard Bobby Sheen it hit me that f*** that dirty ManU scumbag has ripped his voice and half of his hooks lines.

On a muso's note however. Listen to a 12 bar blues. Can you feel the 12 bar cycle, can you feel the four and two bar changes? Listen to a more complex tune, can you feel the middle 8 hitting and anticipate the change? Soul maybe about voice, but it is also about musical feeling. As well as tone much of the emotion in a tune comes from a singer being slightly infront or behind the beat or sliding in and out of tune. That's done my practice both conscious and subconscious and emersion in the particular genre of music.

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you need to live a little

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Just pulling your leg, matey :( I don't really mean that ALL white music is shit, but I do still prefer black music and my soul music "real" so to say :P

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Mmmm first time that i heard Bobby Sheen it hit me that f*** that dirty ManU scumbag has ripped his voice and half of his hooks lines.

On a muso's note however.  Listen to a 12 bar blues. Can you feel the 12 bar cycle, can you feel the four and two bar changes?  Listen to a more complex tune, can you feel the middle 8 hitting and anticipate the change?  Soul maybe about voice, but it is also about musical feeling.  As well as tone much of the emotion in a tune comes from a singer being slightly infront or behind the beat or sliding in and out of tune.  That's done my practice both conscious and subconscious and emersion in the particular genre of music.

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?

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Just pulling your leg, matey  :(   I don't really mean that ALL white music is shit, but I do still prefer black music and my soul music "real" so to say  :P

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I know what you mean, my own preference is for the more mecca type ethereal sound of say a colin curtis set but i dont listen to it exclusively as my wife likes a good old stomper (no pun intended)!

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YES THERE ARE  :(   To me soul music will always be about Black music.

Ok, there will always be some exceptions to the rule - but they are just that: exceptions! Bill Bush or Timi Yuro will NEVER be anything but POP music. Nothing to do with real soul music whatsoever imo  :angry:  'Northern' soul? Maybe. Real soul music? Never. But the again - I'm not from the UK and I'm only 29 years old -so what do I know, right?   :P

Cheers,

Christian B

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Timi's What's A Matter Baby is IMHO as soulful as it gets.

Edited by chalky
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They may be the two greatest northern 'soul' records ever in your opinion, but they sure ain't the two greatest SOUL records of all time  :P

The old 'northern soul' vs. soul debate I guess, which we won't agree on. Better leave it I guess  :(

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Dean Parish has IMO as good a voice of many a black artist. And Elvis come to that :( Listen to Elvis doing the gospel stuff..Lord You Gave Me A Mountain and tell me there is no soul in that

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Guest Johnny One Trout

Remind me who stone island is?

Hammy

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Gordon Hamilton meet Pete Smith :P

Can you two play nicely this time or is that asking too much? :(:(

John

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Dean Parish has IMO as good a voice of many a black artist.  And Elvis come to that  :(   Listen to Elvis doing the gospel stuff..Lord You Gave Me A Mountain and tell me there is no soul in that

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Again: I'm not saying that ALL black soul artists can sing & not that ALL white folks can't :P I have nothing against Dean Parish nor Elvis Presley. But I wouldn't personally play any of them at a soul venue :(

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Again: I'm not saying that ALL black soul artists can sing & not that ALL white folks can't  :P   I have nothing against Dean Parish nor Elvis Presley. But I wouldn't personally play any of them at a soul venue  :(

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I know what you mean, at a recent soul venue they played that lost summer love-lorraine silver and it cleared the floor :( took the DJ awhile to recover and spoilt it a bit

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Guest Johnny One Trout

james coit - black power

larry houston - lets spend some time together

oh sod this, it's making me queasy just thinking about that last one

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LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON LARRY HOUSTON :( never did have any taste smudger :(

Although the really scary thing is that when i played the James Coit the other night i actually caught myself thinking this isn't that bad really in James Brown Funky kinda way :( But really for those few short weeks at the Casino just how Massive was this record - I got the power, da da daaaa, the power the power the mighty Black Power da da daaaaaa :P

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