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gaz thomas

Autographs Loves Gonna Do You In - Joker 714

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Is there a sadder sweeter soul  group sound

 

fair play to john manship for highlighting this 45

 

its just a totally soulful and lovely record

 

So who is that singer ?

 

Was that the temptations backing ?

 

Total class !

 

 its a jobete / motown west coast chester pipkin production

 

ive listened to it 5 times tonight and its class to my ears

 

anyone got any idea who is singing ?

Edited by gaz thomas

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Here it is:

 

Isn't she one of the two female members (2 women and 3 men) that were with that same L.A. group when they recorded for Okeh Records from 1966-69?  Those male singers in the background must be just the male members of The Autographs.  I believe that they became The Visitors on Ray Charles' Tangerine Records in 1970, when Okeh closed its doors.

Edited by RobbK

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Here is the lineup. The backing group is mixed.

 

Harriet Hurst, Rhoda Haller, Thomas McGee, Houston McGee.

 

I still need "we gotta go" if someone has a copy, need the label #.

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I've got the following:

Joker 714 - Autographs - "Loves Gonna Do You In"/"On A Hot Summer Day In The Big City"(Instrumental)

Joker 715 - Autographs - "Do the Duck"/"Do The Duck"(instrumental)

Joker 719 - Autographs - "Sad Sad Feeling"/"Sad Sad Feeling"

 

Could it be that my Joker 719 is a DJ copy, and the 'commercial" pressing had "We Gotta Go" on the "B" side?

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we gotta go is joker 718

 

 

loves gonna do you in sounds much later than that do the duck 45

 

which is not very good btw, in my opinion.

 

Ricardo King  "on a hot summers day in the big city"  the vocal cut to the  B side of the Autographs - well worth picking up 

 

The instrumental is much better in my opinion, but the vocal is great

 

but who was the female lead on "loves gonna do me in"

 

i would love to know, such a beautiful record  

Edited by gaz thomas

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we gotta go is Joker 718

Bob, is that a Jobete or Jan Cris song?  Do you have the full Joker discography?  I just don't know what Joker 717 is.  The flip of "We Gotta Go (Where The Action Is)" (718) is its instrumental.  From the title, I'm guessing that it's NOT a Jobete song. 

 

Do you know who owned Joker.  I think KGFJ  DJ, Herman Griffith was one of the owners (G & G productions).  He was one of the most influential soul DJs of the mid through late '60s in L.A.  He owned a record shop on West Blvd. and Adams Blvd. in the wealthiest Black neighbourhood in L.A. (West Adams District).  I knew him (used to visit his shop a lot and talk to him).  That's a place I got many of my '60s records.

 

Ricardo King sang a couple Jobete songs:  "At The Harlem Center" and "Won't You Come Home".  they are okay, but nothing special (to my ears).  The Soul-Teasers and Connie Clark are very nice.  Interesting that Doo Wop producer, John Marascalco, was a writer for Jobete's L.A. office.

Edited by RobbK

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loves gonna do you in sounds much later than that do the duck 45

 

which is not very good btw, in my opinion.

 

Ricardo King  "on a hot summers day in the big city"  the vocal cut to the  B side of the Autographs - well worth picking up 

 

The instrumental is much better in my opinion, but the vocal is great

 

but who was the female lead on "loves gonna do me in"?

 

i would love to know, such a beautiful record  

I would guess it was either Harriet Hurst or Rhoda Haller (per Bob's info).

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Bob, is that a Jobete or Jan Cris song?  Do you have the full Joker discography?  I just don't know what Joker 717 is.  The flip of "We Gotta Go (Where The Action Is)" (718) is its instrumental.  From the title, I'm guessing that it's NOT a Jobete song. 

 

Do you know who owned Joker.  I think KGFJ  DJ, Herman Griffith was one of the owners (G & G productions).  He was one of the most influential soul DJs of the mid through late '60s in L.A.  He owned a record shop on West Blvd. and Adams Blvd. in the wealthiest Black neighbourhood in L.A. (West Adams District).  I knew him (used to visit his shop a lot and talk to him).  That's a place I got many of my '60s records.

 

Ricardo King sang a couple Jobete songs:  "At The Harlem Center" and "Won't You Come Home".  they are okay, but nothing special (to my ears).  The Soul-Teasers and Connie Clark are very nice.  Interesting that Doo Wop producer, John Marascalco, was a writer for Jobete's L.A. office.

Robb,  the 'we gotta go' Autographs 718 is a Jan-Cris publication.  Arranged and written by George Clements; produced by Herman Griffith. The inst. side is classed as Northern; used to get some action in the clubs here during the 7ts.

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Is there a sadder sweeter soul  group sound

 

fair play to john manship for highlighting this 45

 

its just a totally soulful and lovely record

 

So who is that singer ?

 

Was that the temptations backing ?

 

Total class !

 

 its a jobete / motown west coast chester pipkin production

 

ive listened to it 5 times tonight and its class to my ears

 

anyone got any idea who is singing ?

Jesus, what a record!!

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This is in my all time top 5 and when I started collecting vinyl again 13 years ago it was 2nd one on my wants list (which was mainly made up of stuff I'd heard on those chicano cd's)

 

Funny enough whenever I play it which is quite often - I always play it next to another of my faves - the Nu Luvs - "Baby You Belong To Me"  on Clock - don't know why this is but whenever I play the sweet stuff these two always go together.

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Robb, here is a Joker discography, a modified version of what's here. I also don't know 717.

 

http://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/joker.htm

 

711 - Ricardo King - This Is The Moment / At The Harlem Center
712 - Ricardo King - Won’t You Come On Home / On A Hot Summer Day In The Big City
713 - The Soul -Teasers - Two Lovers / On A Hot Summer Day In The City
714 - The Autographs - Love's Gonna Do You In / On A Hot Summer Day In The City (inst.)
715 - The Autographs - Do the Duck / The Duck (Instrumental) 
716 - Connie Clark - My Sugar Baby / My Sugar Baby (Instrumental)
717 - ?
718 - The Autographs - We Gotta Go (Where The Action Is) / We Gotta Go (Instrumental) 
719 - The Autographs - Sad Sad Feeling / Sad Sad Feeling (Instrumental)

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Bob, is that a Jobete or Jan Cris song? Do you have the full Joker discography? I just don't know what Joker 717 is. The flip of "We Gotta Go (Where The Action Is)" (718) is its instrumental. From the title, I'm guessing that it's NOT a Jobete song.

Do you know who owned Joker. I think KGFJ DJ, Herman Griffith was one of the owners (G & G productions). He was one of the most influential soul DJs of the mid through late '60s in L.A. He owned a record shop on West Blvd. and Adams Blvd. in the wealthiest Black neighbourhood in L.A. (West Adams District). I knew him (used to visit his shop a lot and talk to him). That's a place I got many of my '60s records.

Ricardo King sang a couple Jobete songs: "At The Harlem Center" and "Won't You Come Home". they are okay, but nothing special (to my ears). The Soul-Teasers and Connie Clark are very nice. Interesting that Doo Wop producer, John Marascalco, was a writer for Jobete's L.A. office.

Nice information Robb.

Did you ever come across Herman Lewis on your travels?

I know Herman Griffiths co produced Who's Kissing You Tonight along with JJ, one of my all time favourite soul records.

Pressuming Stone Blue Records was west coast too?

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Nice information Robb.

Did you ever come across Herman Lewis on your travels?

I know Herman Griffiths co produced Who's Kissing You Tonight along with JJ, one of my all time favourite soul records.

Pressuming Stone Blue Records was west coast too?

Stone Blue   east coast pressing I think.  ARP plant I think

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Stone Blue   east coast pressing I think.  ARP plant I think

 

Stone Blue was the recording studio in Cincinatti, where Herman lived, owned by Donald Litwin ... if memory serves me right

 

Andy

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Nice information Robb.

Did you ever come across Herman Lewis on your travels?

I know Herman Griffiths co produced Who's Kissing You Tonight along with JJ, one of my all time favourite soul records.

Pressuming Stone Blue Records was west coast too?

Herman Lewis was also known as Herman Griffin.  He was from Cincinnati, and worked many years in Detroit for Motown and Correc-Tone, and as an independent producer there.  He was Mary Wells' first husband, and Gigi of The Charmaines was his long-time girlfriend and 2nd wife, and he produced them. He worked mainly in Detroit, and a litle bit in Cincnnati. 

 

Herman Griffith was an L.A. DJ, record producer, songwriter and record shop owner.  They are two very different people.  No.  I never met Herman Griffin. Had I met Griffin, I'd probably have chewed off his ear  off, chastising him about his advising Mary Wells to quit Motown.  But, maybe it's better that I didn't, as he once shot Robert West (with a gun)  for trying to interfere with his influence on her.  Stone Blue was located in Cincinnati, but i thought most of their recordings were made in Detroit.

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719 - The Autographs - Sad Sad Feeling / Sad Sad Feeling (Instrumental)

 

 

Also released as Loma 2040 - April 1966.

 

Credits on the label read as follows...

 

Time: 2.35. Catalogue: JX70116.
Writers: Freeman - King - Hughes.
Jan Cris Pub. Co. BMI. 
Produced by G & G Productions.
Arranged by Art Wright.
Engineered by James Hilton.
 

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Stone Blue   east coast pressing I think.  ARP plant I think

ARP was American Record Pressing Plant in The Detroit Metro Area (Owosso, Michigan).  Why should that indicate East Coast to you?  The Cincinnati address was probably Herman Lewis/Griffin's, but both his solo and duet, and also Cody Black's cuts on that label all sound like they were recorded in Detroit, with Detroit sound studio acoustics and Detroit session players.   And ARP means they were pressed near Detroit.  I think they were recorded and mastered in Detroit.

Edited by RobbK

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Just an aside:  The credits on The Autographs' "Sad, Sad Feeling" (both on Joker and Loma) are incorrect.  The dash between Freeman and King is incorrect.  The two writers were Freeman King (who was a songwriter and producer-and later an actor) and Fred Hughes.

 

FreemanKing1_zps6268aecb.png

 

American '70s and '80s TV and film fans should recognise this face (Freeman King).  He produced The Robins on Burn Records, and several Soul releases on Imperial, as well as a few other small indie label releases.

Edited by RobbK

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Given this a few plays over the last few years at not-so-dancefloor oriented venues such as Monumental & seriously soulful. Always gets enquiries as to what it is etc.

i first heard this on one of paul mckays monumental podcasts and fell in love with it instantly,got one asap,goes great with archie bells love will rain on you which i also heard first on pauls podcast,two brilliant records but neither of them "northern" cheers paul :thumbsup:

jason

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i first heard this on one of paul mckays monumental podcasts and fell in love with it instantly,got one asap,goes great with archie bells love will rain on you which i also heard first on pauls podcast,two brilliant records but neither of them "northern" cheers paul :thumbsup:

Jason

 

 instrumental on the other side of "loves gonna do you in" is a classic powerful "northern" style instrumental, one of the best to my ears !

 

One great double sider !

 

Must admit, googled the singers Bob - can't find anything

 

Can you tell me any more ?

Edited by gaz thomas

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The Ollie Jackson Jobete published cuts were produced by Royce Esters, who later became a lawyer, and a major player in the US civil rights movement and NAACP.  I don't remember seeing his name on any other records.  Do any of you remember him writing any songs or producing any other L.A. Soul records?

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i first heard this on one of paul mckays monumental podcasts and fell in love with it instantly,got one asap,goes great with archie bells love will rain on you which i also heard first on pauls podcast,two brilliant records but neither of them "northern" cheers paul :thumbsup:

jason

My pleasure Jason!

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Given this a few plays over the last few years at not-so-dancefloor oriented venues such as Monumental & seriously soulful. Always gets enquiries as to what it is etc.

 

that's where I heard it 1st thanks Paul picked my copy up off Salmon (god bless) and one i'll cherish

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that's where I heard it 1st thanks Paul picked my copy up off Salmon (god bless) and one i'll cherish

 

yeah, my copy is for keeps !!!

 

Mine came from Tim Brown if my memory is correct

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Might be some missing info here?

 

Another group who underwent a number of name changes was Los Angeles based The Autographs. They started life in the early 60's as a 5 strong (2 male / 3 female) "street corner" group by the name of The Impersonators. Through one of the girls they managed to gain an audition with Hal Davis.Hal was working at the time for Motown in their west coast set up --he was to have a much higher profile at the company in the 70's after it relocated to L.A., when he worked with Marvin Gaye,Diana Ross,etc. He used the group to sing backing vocals on tracks he was cutting for Motown. It was with Hal that the group enjoyed their first release, he changed their name to the Autographs and signed them to a deal with Joker Records.The first single the label released on the group was "Love's Gonna Do You In" / “On A Hot Summer Day” inst. -- Joker 714 and this was produced by Chester Pipkin. Another of their releases on the label was "Do the Duck" and this was later to find favour on the U.K. northern soul scene. The group then hooked up with Larry Williams who at the time was producing acts in L.A. for Okeh. They again started off doing backing vocals, this time on Okeh sessions early in 1967 & these included Little Richard's "I Don't Want To Discuss It" and "A Little Bit Of Something" plus Larry Williams & Johnny Watson's "A Quitter Never Wins". It was only natural that as a reward for their efforts Larry should cut some tracks on the group for Okeh. The only record to result from their efforts was released in September 67, "I Can Do It / I'm Gonna Show You How To Love Me" -- Okeh 7293 --the B being the better dance side !
The group then disappeared off the recording scene for a couple of years, this coinciding with the decline and death of the Okeh label. It was closed down early in 1970 after having enjoyed little if no chart success after mid 68 and only managing to release a handful of records in it's final year - Azie Mortimer's "You Can't Take It Away" Okeh 7336 being one of it's last issue's in March 70. I presume the group was locked into a contract with the failing label during this period as when they did reappear it was with a new name. In December 69 / January 70 under the name The Visitors the group had the first of two releases on Ray Charles' Tangerine Record Label. This was "My Love Is Ready And Waiting / What About Me" (TRC 1003), both sides being written by the group in conjunction with Len Jewel Smith with Len Jewel also handling production duties and James Carmichael arranging. The A side is a great deep soul track featuring strong lead vocals whilst the B is a "100 m.p.h." dancer. By this time the groups line up had changed to an all male outfit and they were supported by their own backing band. The record received no promotion and as a result didn't sell well. A second single followed in August 1970, "Anytime Is The Right Time / Never The Less" (TRC 1010) and again the songs featured were self written with Len Jewel. L.J. again also acted as producer on the session, incidently the A & B side matrix numbers aren't consecutive, being 473 & 476 so that almost certainly means there are at least 2 unissued tracks by the group from this session. Both sides of this single are also highly recommended however again it received no promotion so once more it made no impression on the Soul Charts. The group managed to make a living by playing live shows in and around L.A., they built up their own dedicated audience and as a result managed to survive. By the way there is no connection between this group and the Chicago based group The Visitors who recorded for Dakar / Bashie around this same time. 
Times were changing though, more self contained groups were being formed -- ones who played their own instruments as well as undertaking the vocal duties. The Autographs, they reverted to their original name as soon as their connection with TRC ended, followed the trend in 1972 because as well as seeming more in line with current trends, it enabled the group to cut their costs and so to make a living from their live performance fees. Their line up also changed in this period, by this time the only original members were brothers Houston and Thomas. One of the members of their backing band in 1971, James, returned as a full member of the group on lead guitar and Floyd, bass guitar, joined at the same time.In 1974 Greg from Delaware, drums / percussion, became the fifth and final member of the unit. In 1975 things seemed to be looking up for the group, Mabel John had become their manager and they were cutting tracks at Sam Russell's recording studio in Pasadena. Sam enjoyed success in his own right in 1974 having some releases on Playboy Records. Sam was acting as their producer and had cut the rhythm tracks on 2 songs at Muscle Shoals, Alabama which the group added their efforts to back in California. The completed tracks from the session were taken around a number of record companies and in late 75 R.C.A. were in negotiations with the team to license the 2 tracks for single release with talk of an album to follow. However to my knowledge nothing by The Autographs was actually released in late 75 or 76 on R.C.A. or any other label for that matter. One of two things must have happened, either another name change was forced on them and the tracks were released without any clue to the groups earlier identity or the tracks are sat gathering dust in some stock room / basement still unissued. On the strength of the groups earlier efforts on vinyl it would be a sin if the second of these two possible scenarios turned out to be the truth.

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John is on here, maybe he can clarify. This is the lineup I have for the Autographs, possibly taken from Okeh company files:

 

Harriet Hurst, Rhoda Haller, Thomas McGee, Houston McGee.

 

This is the lineup I have for the visitors on Tangerine:

 

Godoy Colbert, James Nelson. Esko Wallace, Robert Taylor; Orlando ?
 
I don't see any common members. John, if you're reading, can you clarify? I assume you talked to one of the Autographs?

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Just an aside:  The credits on The Autographs' "Sad, Sad Feeling" (both on Joker and Loma) are incorrect.  The dash between Freeman and King is incorrect.  The two writers were Freeman King (who was a songwriter and producer-and later an actor) and Fred Hughes.

 

FreemanKing1_zps6268aecb.png

 

American '70s and '80s TV and film fans should recognise this face (Freeman King).  He produced The Robins on Burn Records, and several Soul releases on Imperial, as well as a few other small indie label releases.

 

Just an aside:  The credits on The Autographs' "Sad, Sad Feeling" (both on Joker and Loma) are incorrect.  The dash between Freeman and King is incorrect.  The two writers were Freeman King (who was a songwriter and producer-and later an actor) and Fred Hughes.

 

FreemanKing1_zps6268aecb.png

 

American '70s and '80s TV and film fans should recognise this face (Freeman King).  He produced The Robins on Burn Records, and several Soul releases on Imperial, as well as a few other small indie label releases.

Freeman King produced the first Little Johnny Hamilton and Milton James & The Creators record on Burn with band member Howard Nicholson (thanks to Richard Lewis for that info). I'd love to see and hear the Robins if you've got it Rob. Ady

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Freeman King produced the first Little Johnny Hamilton and Milton James & The Creators record on Burn with band member Howard Nicholson (thanks to Richard Lewis for that info). I'd love to see and hear the Robins if you've got it Rob. Ady

Sorry Ady, The old memory played tricks on me.  It was The Fascinators on Burn, that King produced.  I remembered it as "The Robins" because I have a record on a label called "Robins Nest" that is the same orange colour, and has the same L.A. font.

 

FasvinatorsBurn1_zps9cf6b5a0.jpg

 

FascinatorsBurn2_zpsd24d16fe.jpg

Monarch's pressing number 59500s places it in November of 1965.  I wonder if this was the same Fascinators from Compton, CA, who recorded "Teardrop Eyes" for Dootsie Williams' Dootone Records in 1958?  The 2000 block of Hatchway Street is in Compton.  Both the Dootone and Burn groups had one female member.  I think THAT fact, and the Compton street address seal it that they are, at least two directly connected groups, with at keast one member shared (likely more), despite the 7 year spread in released records.  But, perhaps they had a few releases in between that I can't remember offhand, or have never seen.

Edited by RobbK

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I said Howard but it was Bobby Nicholson an original member of the Creators (not related to the early 60s Dore group weirdly) who had Little Johnny Hamilton and Milton James as lead singers. You never saw the listed Milton James on Chatahoochie did you? He had never heard of it.

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This is the membership of the fascinators on burn:

 

Helen Simpson, formerly of Little Joe Mosely & The Sequins on Del-Fi, The
Vows on Markay, the uncr. group behind James Washington Lee, and later of
The Attractions on Renfro and Bell; Ronnie Preyer, later of The Younghearts
on Canterbury; Joe Lawson, formerly of the R&B group The Cheerios, aka
The Chandeliers on Sue, and later of The Vows on V.I.P.
 
John, if you're reading, I'm still interested in who you talked to in the Autographs and what you think is the deal between the different Visitors lineup and the dude saying that the autographs were the visitors. I appreciate your interviews with different people.

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