Various Musings On The Salvadors

[Pomonkey]

"then plates taken to Chicago with Jo Armstead and two minute little dimples knocked into them"

 

Anyone lucky enough to have seen Jo Armstead smile (we have, she's gorgeous, come to a not-too-distant-future-future Dig Deeper and see for yourself) would know she still has these same 2 dimples:)

[Swifty]

Be nice on a W/D

[Premium Stuff]

Did you have a Salvadors for sale? How did I miss that.

 

How much did it go for?

 

Still one of the greatest Northern records ever produced, regardless of where it was recorded, label colour, it gets the dangly bits standing to attention straight out from the intro. Or is that just me.....

 

He's not telling us Jock   

[Pete S]

He's not telling us Jock   

 

Went for only £32 as it was a common 2nd issue, if only it had been a "first issue" I might have got £50 for it.

[Tony A]

An imperial measurement would be more appropriate, given said vinyl recording is of North American origin (46/1000ths of an inch).

Have you been playing with your vernier ?    

[John Parker]

Crikey,women using micrometers.!! What ever next.? Get you Mrs 1.18mm.

Spent many happy hours looking at the dimples on mine...to get out the micrometer..that would be obscene  

[El Corol]

Now I'm confused. The first quote says the first press was in St Louis with the plates then taken to Chicago.

 

The second quote says they travelled to Chicago to record SWMB.

 

So from what I've read on this thread it was either:

 

1. Recorded and pressed in St Louis first and then taken to Chicago and presssed again.

 

2. They recorded it in Chicago and then went back to St Louis to press it and then returned to Chicago to press it again.

 

or is there a third possibility that it was recorded and pressed in Chicago first, then the group returned to St Louis and pressed it again there?

I enjoy a spot of micrometer innuendo as much as the next person but I' m still trying to get to the bottom (ooer missus) of the options above which is part of post 46 for the full context.

Anyone with any thoughts is welcome to have a rummage through my tool box and play with my plumb line!

[KevH]

"I enjoy a spot of micrometer innuendo as much as the next person".

 

Micrometer innuendo. .

https://www.instructables.com/id/Micrometer-Case/.

 

This guy is for real.Plenty of innuendo here. .

Edited July 18, 2014 by KevH

[John Parker]

personal opinion is that it may make a small difference in price,,,with or without dimples  3k +

[Rich B]

I don't know if anyone else would be interested, but I would really like to hear the story of how this 'First press' was discovered, as I was completely unaware of its existence before this thread. Who discovered it, where, etc. Some decent scans would be nice too as the thumbnails on JM's site don't really show it looking any different to the 'second press'.

 

I was once lucky enough to have three Salvadors at the same time - the thicker copy turned out to be a PB pressing, the other two were identical.

 

In addition to that, the sound file sounds a bit quick to me, or is that just me?

[Mal C]

makes me laugh, I can normally get away with most of the record collecting 'Bollox' when I speak to friends who simply dont know about soul 45 collecting, but the 2nd press 'Dimple' in the master plate...

 

dont think I could ever relay that one without feeling, well... a bit sad

[El Corol]

I don't know if anyone else would be interested, but I would really like to hear the story of how this 'First press' was discovered, as I was completely unaware of its existence before this thread. Who discovered it, where, etc. Some decent scans would be nice too as the thumbnails on JM's site don't really show it looking any different to the 'second press'.

 

I was once lucky enough to have three Salvadors at the same time - the thicker copy turned out to be a PB pressing, the other two were identical.

 

In addition to that, the sound file sounds a bit quick to me, or is that just me?

I'd be interested Rich. It seems to have gone quiet on this thread.

[Mick Boyle]

I heard years ago that they started off as The Classics

 

 

 

Anyone know if this is correct 

Edited July 19, 2014 by Mick Boyle

[Pete S]

I'd be interested Rich. It seems to have gone quiet on this thread.

 

Me too.  And how the story came about.  Chicken / egg scenario.

[Premium Stuff]

Just bumping this old thread from 8 years go which has lots of useful information about the various Salvadors presses.

 

 

Worth a read and hopefully it will clarify some of the outstanding questions 

 

Cheers

 

Richard

Edited July 19, 2014 by Premium Stuff

[El Corol]

I can't get passed the fact that if this was recorded in Chicago and released there why would a first press be from St Louis?

[Pete S]

.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Pete S

[Garethx]

I can't get passed the fact that if this was recorded in Chicago and released there why would a first press be from St Louis?

The music business links between St Louis and Chicago were always very strong. It's only a couple of hundred miles between the two and St. Louis artists would have looked to Chicago as the nearest truly big music business hub in terms of studios, distribution, access to bigger radio stations or just bigger clubs to play in.

 

Chess records had a long history of looking to St. Louis for talent: in the soul years alone Oliver Sain, Bobby McClure, Fontella Bass and others all made the short journey. Going back further Little Milton, Chuck Berry etc. were all scouted there.

 

Jo Armstead was based in Chicago at the height of her career but would have started out as an Ikette in St. Louis. Presumably she continued to have music business links there. 

[Rich B]

The music business links between St Louis and Chicago were always very strong. It's only a couple of hundred miles between the two and St. Louis artists would have looked to Chicago as the nearest truly big music business hub in terms of studios, distribution, access to bigger radio stations or just bigger clubs to play in.

 

Chess records had a long history of looking to St. Louis for talent: in the soul years alone Oliver Sain, Bobby McClure, Fontella Bass and others all made the short journey. Going back further Little Milton, Chuck Berry etc. were all scouted there.

 

Jo Armstead was based in Chicago at the height of her career but would have started out as an Ikette in St. Louis. Presumably she continued to have music business links there. 

 

Points well made Gareth, I 'get' that the Salvadors may well have been from and performed in St Louis, and that they travelled to Chicago for the recording session, but like ElCorol, given the proximity of Chicago and St Louis - why press it in both places? It's not like the old East coast/West coast thing surely?

[El Corol]

Points well made Gareth, I 'get' that the Salvadors may well have been from and performed in St Louis, and that they travelled to Chicago for the recording session, but like ElCorol, given the proximity of Chicago and St Louis - why press it in both places? It's not like the old East coast/West coast thing surely?

 

Thats what I don't understand.

 

This is what JM said on the matter on SS in 2006:

 

• Guests

To clear a few questions up on the Salvadors.

1. very first original press is St. Louis, vinyl is THICKER @ (1.18mm) with NO pimples in the vinyl, the green label is a deeper shade. I only known of one copy of this press, Carl Willingham owned it, I sold it to Australian collector for £2500 in really poor shape vg-. But it was the ONLY known copy.

2.Chicago press thinner vinyl @ (1.09mm vinyl) label is a lighter shade ie (the one we have on auction)has TWO visible pimples on the playing surface, these do NOT affect play but you can see them if you twist the record in the daylight. The matrx in the deadwax reads 62771 this number is lightly scratched in and staggered. Worth 2500 to 3500 we'd guess

The deadwax matrix on both presses are IDENTICAL ie using the same masterplate.

3. The PB boots as Ted M. rightly points out came out of Los Angeles via our friend and yours Simon S. He did Mel Britt, George Blackwell, Johnny Vanelli, and many others at the same time all have P.B. in the deadwax.

This gave birth to the story of Bob Cattaneo travelling from S.F. to L.A. to buy Simons latest fantastic find. When Bob saw all these top titles in mint condition he smelt a rat and on close inspection found P.B. in all the 45 deadwax's. Bob told Simon you can't sell these as originals. Simon admitted they looked a bit NEW, so he got George Blackwell our its sleeve and violently rubbed it on his carpet. (a ploy used on the Four Vandals scam) "there they look used now!!"

4.Then there is the dark blue label and obvious bootleg in styrene 1976 repro Delta # 100273

5. Then there is the same with a Light blue label.

Edited by john manship, 18 June 2006 - 10:48 AM.

 

And this is from Boba's summary of his interview with band member Flint Lloyd:

 

In the late 60s, the Salvadors reformed with the same lineup as the earlier record. E Rodney Jones took them to Chicago to record again. The group recorded "Stick by me baby" / "I wanna dance" for the Wise World label in Chicago; Flint's brother Donald sang lead on both tracks. "Stick by me baby" was written by Jo Armstead. The record did not get any play in Chicago but did get some play in St. Louis. The group broke up for a final time a couple years after "Stick by me baby" was released. Different group members continued to sing in other local groups but none that recorded. However, in the 70s, "Stick by me baby" became a big "Northern Soul" record in England, played by the DJs as a dance record, and is now highly collectible. Two members of the Salvadors are still around today.

You can check out my interview with Flint at the bottom of my interviews page at:https://www.sittingin...interviews.html . Thanks for your interest.

thanks,

Bob

 

Make of that what you will but to me where are the identfiyings marks that make this a St Louis first press?

 

 

Could it just be that it was pressed twice in Chicago (or whatever plant they used) with the first run on thicker vinyl, or that maybe there was a problem with the first run (the damaged plates?) that was halted and then the run restarted with thinner vinyl?

 

Or if there was a run pressed in St Louis then from what Bob A and Flint Lloyd have to say about the record getting no play in Chicago but it did in St Louis then if anything if they did press any in St Louis it would be a second press (maybe thats where the dimpled ones come from  ) 

 

I don't get how it being slightly thicker vinyl and darker label means/proves it was pressed in St Louis?

[Pete S]

2.Chicago press thinner vinyl @ (1.09mm vinyl) label is a lighter shade ie (the one we have on auction)has TWO visible pimples on the playing surface, these do NOT affect play but you can see them if you twist the record in the daylight. The matrx in the deadwax reads 62771 this number is lightly scratched in and staggered. Worth 2500 to 3500 we'd guess

 

 

This is the copy I sold by the way.  The one from this auction.

[Guest]

Are the record pressing plant addresses know for this record? They could have been manufactured anywhere between Chicago and St Louis.

Look at so called Detroit records, manufactured at Terre Haute, Indiana (ZTSC).

Could the dimples be the pressing fault that caused them to make a second run without dimples?

[Premium Stuff]

Now let's clear this important matter up - are they dimples or pimples? Make your minds up folks 

[Chalky]

A pimple protrudes, a dimple is an indentation (goes inwards) ;)

[Scal]

I remember the reference was "double dimple".

I flogged mine to Mick Smith twenty years ago....he will still have it I think.

[Premium Stuff]

A pimple protrudes, a dimple is an indentation (goes inwards) ;)

 

Exactly - that's bang on Pete - but which is it with the Salvadors? I have never had one 

[Pete S]

I remember the reference was "double dimple".

I flogged mine to Mick Smith twenty years ago....he will still have it I think.

 

He has still got it.  Says he's very disappointed now that it's only a second issue.

Also says it has a date stamp on it - 1968

Re the dimples - it might go inwards but it comes out on the other side

[Tattoodave]

Still doesn't ring true to me, too many implausibles. Proof is obviously not going to be found, so it's the moneyed gullible that will buy.

[Scal]

Well I have owned one, sold one, been with Dave Withers when he found two in a load of Rock Roll/ Doo Wop stuff....you had to know what you were looking for as this was after the counterfeits that came from Simon via Russ in the middish 1970's...Mel Britt, Ernest Mosely, Velvet Satins etc.

Rod Shard and Alex Jones also came across the St. Louis pressing in the 90's.

I have therefore seen both the original pressings.

What was the question?

[Marc Forrest]

Thats what I don't understand.

 

This is what JM said on the matter on SS in 2006:

 

• Guests

To clear a few questions up on the Salvadors.

1. very first original press is St. Louis, vinyl is THICKER @ (1.18mm) with NO pimples in the vinyl, the green label is a deeper shade. I only known of one copy of this press, Carl Willingham owned it, I sold it to Australian collector for £2500 in really poor shape vg-. But it was the ONLY known copy.

2.Chicago press thinner vinyl @ (1.09mm vinyl) label is a lighter shade ie (the one we have on auction)has TWO visible pimples on the playing surface, these do NOT affect play but you can see them if you twist the record in the daylight. The matrx in the deadwax reads 62771 this number is lightly scratched in and staggered. Worth 2500 to 3500 we'd guess

The deadwax matrix on both presses are IDENTICAL ie using the same masterplate.

3. The PB boots as Ted M. rightly points out came out of Los Angeles via our friend and yours Simon S. He did Mel Britt, George Blackwell, Johnny Vanelli, and many others at the same time all have P.B. in the deadwax.

This gave birth to the story of Bob Cattaneo travelling from S.F. to L.A. to buy Simons latest fantastic find. When Bob saw all these top titles in mint condition he smelt a rat and on close inspection found P.B. in all the 45 deadwax's. Bob told Simon you can't sell these as originals. Simon admitted they looked a bit NEW, so he got George Blackwell our its sleeve and violently rubbed it on his carpet. (a ploy used on the Four Vandals scam) "there they look used now!!"

4.Then there is the dark blue label and obvious bootleg in styrene 1976 repro Delta # 100273

5. Then there is the same with a Light blue label.

Edited by john manship, 18 June 2006 - 10:48 AM.

 

And this is from Boba's summary of his interview with band member Flint Lloyd:

 

In the late 60s, the Salvadors reformed with the same lineup as the earlier record. E Rodney Jones took them to Chicago to record again. The group recorded "Stick by me baby" / "I wanna dance" for the Wise World label in Chicago; Flint's brother Donald sang lead on both tracks. "Stick by me baby" was written by Jo Armstead. The record did not get any play in Chicago but did get some play in St. Louis. The group broke up for a final time a couple years after "Stick by me baby" was released. Different group members continued to sing in other local groups but none that recorded. However, in the 70s, "Stick by me baby" became a big "Northern Soul" record in England, played by the DJs as a dance record, and is now highly collectible. Two members of the Salvadors are still around today.

You can check out my interview with Flint at the bottom of my interviews page at:https://www.sittingin...interviews.html . Thanks for your interest.

thanks,

Bob

 

Make of that what you will but to me where are the identfiyings marks that make this a St Louis first press?

 

 

Could it just be that it was pressed twice in Chicago (or whatever plant they used) with the first run on thicker vinyl, or that maybe there was a problem with the first run (the damaged plates?) that was halted and then the run restarted with thinner vinyl?

 

Or if there was a run pressed in St Louis then from what Bob A and Flint Lloyd have to say about the record getting no play in Chicago but it did in St Louis then if anything if they did press any in St Louis it would be a second press (maybe thats where the dimpled ones come from  ) 

 

I don't get how it being slightly thicker vinyl and darker label means/proves it was pressed in St Louis?

 

"...no play in Chicago but it did in St Louis then if anything if they did press any in St Louis it would be a second press.."

 

spot on el corol, it always did my head in too to be honest!

[El Corol]

It sounds like an assumption its from St Louis or wishful thinking or being more cynical a way to spin a slightly different pressing into being more than just that, a slightly different pressing. This stuff then goes into folklore.

By the way I am fully happy for this to be from St Louis just a bit more evidence. As solidsoul says it would be good to identify the pressing plant/s.

I remember trying to sell a copy of Paul Sindab I Was A Fool on Knox, in Keele around the early 90s. One main dealer told me it was a second label after Powertree!!! Despite one side having a POWERTREE DEMO sticker on it............like they'd use a second issue label for a demo of the first issue label? I might not be the most knowledgable soul collector but I'm not that daft.

[Pete S]

Maybe the St Louis was a private pressing sold at the club they were resident at?

[Pete S]

I once had a copy of Little Joe Cook I'm Falling In Love With You Baby and it said JJ Records, someone crossed that out and wrote Hot records

[El Corol]

Maybe the St Louis was a private pressing sold at the club they were resident at?

As a first or second pressing?

On a Chicago label?

If that was the case and it was getting better reception in their home town of St Louis then second would be my assumption based on what Bob A got from Flint Lloyd as they'd already recorded it in Chicago.

Though as for the whole dimple/ pimple thing I don't quite get what might have happened there and people more knowledgeable than me might.

[dennyj]

The one on Manship's looks and describes suspiciously like the ones that Mr Phil Dick and myself own! [/quote

And mine. 8-)

[Chalky]

As a first or second pressing?

On a Chicago label?

If that was the case and it was getting better reception in their home town of St Louis then second would be my assumption based on what Bob A got from Flint Lloyd as they'd already recorded it in Chicago.

Though as for the whole dimple/ pimple thing I don't quite get what might have happened there and people more knowledgeable than me might.

 

They probably recorded it in Chicago, took it back with them for self promotion, it maybe picked up a bit of action and so a second press done.

 

As for the dimples, the plates got damaged/marked which then left an impression on the pressing.

[Guest]

After watching various You tube clips of how records are made I was under the impression that there is a Master disc.

Then a series of pressing machine discs are made from that.

There could be about 5 sets of these pressing discs for the various record pressing machines.

These are the actual presses they use on the machines. They wear out and have to be replaced.

They are all made from the original master disc but can have different markings put on them at different points in the manufacturing process. (ie dimples, letters and numbers added, etc)

If I had two machines running, I would have different markings on the pressing plates so I would know which machine pressed which records.

All I am saying is, I think it's a bit more complicated than just one set of pressing plates!

Edited August 3, 2014 by Guest

[Drewtg]

I had a green one, but Theresa never got her hands on it

No micrometer jokes please.

[Guest gordon russell]

I heard years ago that they started off as The Classics

 

 

 

Anyone know if this is correct 

Theres a great tune by roy handy   on that label design

[Robbk]

ALL the issues looked like Chicago pressings tome (other than the boots).  St. Louis DID have a few small pressing plants in the late 1960s.  But MOST of their Soul records were pressed in Chicago at that time.  I'd be surprised if they recorded the songs in Chicago (which they did), then had them pressed in Chicago, then went back to St. Louis, had some local success there, and got Wise World to press them in St. Louis.  I'd guess that all the legit pressing was done in Chicago. 

[Guest gordon russell]

Exactly - that's bang on Pete - but which is it with the Salvadors? I have never had one 

inwards from the stick by me side

[Guest]

Did you have a Salvadors for sale? How did I miss that.

 

How much did it go for?

 

Still one of the greatest Northern records ever produced, regardless of where it was recorded, label colour, it gets the dangly bits standing to attention straight out from the intro. Or is that just me.....

So far no-one has mentioned the flip "I Wanna Dance".......is also a very good track, ive played it out and it sounds brilliant over the big speakers.

 

does the blurb include, 'probably THE most hammered oldie on the scene over the last 20 years'? 

No idea where you get that from at all. 

 

He has still got it.  Says he's very disappointed now that it's only a second issue.

Also says it has a date stamp on it - 1968

Re the dimples - it might go inwards but it comes out on the other side

Aha!.....the plot thickens, we now have dimples and pimples as well. 

[Geeselad]

So far no-one has mentioned the flip "I Wanna Dance".......is also a very good track, ive played it out and it sounds brilliant over the big speakers.

 

No idea where you get that from at all. 

 

Aha!.....the plot thickens, we now have dimples and pimples as well. 

All due respect Steve but apart from really cheesy stuff like the snake ect its probably one of THE most played oldie's, its been absolutely played to death over the last 10, 20, 30. 40 years give or take, usually of 2nd issue's or pressings amitidly, great sound, just hammered.

[Guest]

All due respect Steve but apart from really cheesy stuff like the snake ect its probably one of THE most played oldie's, its been absolutely played to death over the last 10, 20, 30. 40 years give or take, usually of 2nd issue's or pressings amitidly, great sound, just hammered.

I suppose it depends where your situated and what the local "Playlist" is made up of so I understand your point Mr Goose

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

OK my two pennoth for what its worth.

 

Over the years I've had the opportunity to talk to label owners, producers, artists etc and one thing that comes across loud and clear is that amongst the small independant labels in particular, the local scene in each town or city seemed to be one of chaos. Records being pressed at different plants wherever they could get them done, artists moonlighting between groups as did producers and engineers, different recording studios used....the list goes on and on.

 

My own feeling is there are situations where dealers and collectors are guessing or perhaps stating what they believe is some logical explanation as to pressing differences. This then becomes "fact" amongst collectors and dealers. I'm not saying its the case here, but you never know.

 

I remember speaking to one writer / artist about 10 years ago reagrding one of his records and he couldn't even remeber he recorded it, then when I sent him a scan denied it was him, before eventually remembering he did do it after all - FFS !! 

 

One of the most recent ones was The Chandlers on Blue Rose. Dealer says the Rite pressing with block capitals for the artist is the orig and the label with poor quality printing and not Rite pressed is the second pressing. Reason given is that the Rite pressing had a quality label. When I mentioned this to someone who was involved in that local music scene at the time, he said it could have been the opposite way round. The Rite pressing could have been done second to make up for the poor quality of the original pressing.

 

My point is we make assumptions which may or may not be valid and relying on people to remember something from 50 years ago is always going to be questionable.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Andy Mac

[Mal C]

still a pulsating how ever many times I hear it,  its still up there with a small number of 45's like George Blackwell on Smoke, never dims as a track or collectable 45..

 

it came on the other night in my car, followed by Renegade Soundwave - The Phantom, a comparison that may be lost on most of you, but I thought these two tracks are quite the same within their respected genres, both drop what your doing, no messin, kick ass! straight to the floor! tracks...

 

and before I get any stick, this threads musing right? I rate both of these tracks personally, right at the top!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mtAhannzXM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwsZDC9iMiA

 

Malcolm

Edited August 4, 2014 by Mal C

[Mickjay33]

just a little point if JM Salvadors is the first press can you play out the second press as this is not now OVO or is it ???????

[Ted Massey]

what a load of b*llocks this thread is i'm guilty of playing a second issue on Saturday there I've said it   

Edited February 7, 2015 by pikeys dog
swearing - workplace filters

[Guest]

just a little point if JM Salvadors is the first press can you play out the second press as this is not now OVO or is it ???????

An "original" to me is a record that was made as part of the original promotion, at the time the group/singer were still together.

Local label or National release as long as it was made around the same time to sell to the general public.

JM is splitting hairs to build up the auction price.

What's next with other rarities, east coast release verses west coast release, which is first issue!!

Edited August 5, 2014 by Guest

[Julianb]

what a load of b*llocks this thread is i'm guilty of playing a second issue on Saturday there I've said it   

Shame on you

Edited February 7, 2015 by pikeys dog
swearing - workplace filters