Tonite - Northern Soul Bbc Living For The Weekend

[Steve S 60]

I think those who are disappointed that the 1980s and 90s weren't covered might have got a hint from the progamme's opening statement.....

 

"...the most exciting underground British club movement of the 1970s".

[Pete S]

Evidently not, though I didn't consider it either a barb or unnecessary.

Best keep out of each other way on here though, as your forthright, definitive posts on both the music and aspects of the scene do seem to wind me up! I've just clocked your latest effort!!

Worth considering the fact that this happens to me with no-one else on here like........

Cheers,

Mark R

 

Just block me so you don't have to see what I write!  I'll do the same :-)

[Pete S]

How do you know? Cracking 5 minute slot could have been dropped in the programme to show the passion and hunger for new tunes, the return to the underground and the rejection of the tired old stereotypes from the Wigan era which would have enough drama, e.g Butch's quote in Gareth's book.

I do however think its more likely the case that most of those who dropped out after Wigan wouldn't want up see it but that's more a case of convincing themselves that they missed nothing. Bit of ego preservation

 

That's what I said.

[Ceejay]

All in all I enjoyed it..................would have enjoyed it more without Stringfellow and Waterman................oh and LISA I lived in a town near Wigan and am in the up and coming film STANSFIELD!!!!

[Dean Rudland]

I think they are correct, I C H M really is the template for thousands of Northern records, the only trouble is, the clip they showed was of a live version with some band playing it and sounded nothing like the original.

That made me laugh too.

They seemed to have a jazz drummer playing a shuffle beat.

[Sjclement]

That made me laugh too.

They seemed to have a jazz drummer playing a shuffle beat.

Probably due to the fact the Tops started out as a jazz group and at that period were happy singing it in that style.

Anyone catch the Temptations as a four piece singin I Can't get next to you on the Motown at the BBC program after.

[Guest]

Just voted, and gave it a 4, which, it seems is the choice of most.

As a programme meant to cover the topic for a more general audience, I thought it was ok, particularly the first 45 minutes or so.

I think the intention of the programme was to show the roots, history .....and the increasing interest shown by media and younger music fans in the NS scene as it stands.

Therefore, that 80s period would have been 'difficult' to convey within the remit .

Enjoyed it on the whole, although the impression that the Mecca era played 'gay New York Disco' only was strange to me. Perhaps an explanation as to playing 'Modern Soul' i.e. contemporary soul music would have been better IMO

[Guest]

Probably due to the fact the Tops started out as a jazz group and at that period were happy singing it in that style.

Anyone catch the Temptations as a four piece singin I Can't get next to you on the Motown at the BBC program after.

Seen it before, Eddie Kendricks was basically on strike....he refused to tour, left shortly after that .

[Sjclement]

Never really got on together like the Tops then?

[Guest]

There appeared to be quite a lot of turmoil in the group.

Paul and Eddie were a 'team'...buddies

Otis and Melvin likewise

David in the middle.

When Ruffin was sacked, Eddie sided with him

Otis , self confirmed leader, was against it....WhenPpaul committed suicide, I think Eddie was feeling unhappy.

Also, Eddie was unhappy with the post Cloud Nine stuff from Norman Whitfield

He refused to tour the UK...

Can't remember if he eventually joined the tour, but he was soon gone.

[Jerry Hipkiss]

Never really got on together like the Tops then?

In his excellent book "Where did our love go", Nelson George describes the Temptations as  "really two pairs of friends and one outsider (David Ruffin) with his own agenda".

 

PS Thanks Snakepit for beating me to it while I found the quote!

Edited July 26, 2014 by Jerry Hipkiss

[Guest CapitolSC]

Found it yawnarma of what I watched and couldn't watch anymore Sharnya 

Edited July 26, 2014 by CapitolSC

[Dean Rudland]

Probably due to the fact the Tops started out as a jazz group and at that period were happy singing it in that style.

Anyone catch the Temptations as a four piece singin I Can't get next to you on the Motown at the BBC program after.

Nothing to do with that I would have thought. Just the sort of show that clip was from - a TV variety show.

However that wasn't really the point - they were explaining the importance of a 4/4 beat and the clip they showed didn't have one, which I thought was funny.

[Guest]

Agree

 

as was the clip showing George Best to illustrate Northern football fans in London

[Garethx]

Just voted, and gave it a 4, which, it seems is the choice of most.

As a programme meant to cover the topic for a more general audience, I thought it was ok, particularly the first 45 minutes or so.

I think the intention of the programme was to show the roots, history .....and the increasing interest shown by media and younger music fans in the NS scene as it stands.

Therefore, that 80s period would have been 'difficult' to convey within the remit .

Enjoyed it on the whole, although the impression that the Mecca era played 'gay New York Disco' only was strange to me. Perhaps an explanation as to playing 'Modern Soul' i.e. contemporary soul music would have been better IMO

Don't agree with the 1980s being 'difficult to convey' at all. A mention that the scene 'went underground' at Stafford, Clifton Hall, 100 Club and tons of other venues would have taken less than a minute. Plus there's actual footage from Stafford, Tony's and other places!

[Guest]

Don't agree with the 1980s being 'difficult to convey' at all. A mention that the scene 'went underground' at Stafford, Clifton Hall, 100 Club and tons of other venues would have taken less than a minute. Plus there's actual footage from Stafford, Tony's and other places!

I was thinking in terms of the programme referring to the 'drying of of records' , and trying to explain the 80s scene playing 'newies' that in many cases were older than 'oldies'.(had a difficult time with that at my work)...records that the previous scene wouldn't have played...not typical NS

No offence to those clubs at all

[Garethx]

Those perceptions only came from people who'd jacked it in. The truth.

[Guest]

Take your word for it.

never went to Wigan or any of those clubs you mention.

Liked the records though

[bozaboy]

Dave Godin ...... at last!

[Boogaloo]

Watched it this afternoon and have to say I found it to be an enjoyable 60 minutes of Northern Soul history. A really good overview for those unaccustomed to the Northern Soul scene. Well done the BBC.

[Guest]

Enjoyed most of it.

Lee David "Temptation is calling my name" sounded great!!!

The lowest point for me was having Marc Almond on!

His biggest claim to Northern Soul was making that crap version of the champion Gloria Jones record "Tainted Love".

Although it could have been worse they could have had Stuart Maconie!

Edited July 27, 2014 by Guest

[Kegsy]

Really......may be wrong,but don,t remember  ian or colin djing there.....and the point was  l thought they were all sat around playing NEW stuff for that night at the mecca........or did l read it wrong

 

Are you serious ?

 

Just because a tune was played at the Mecca first by either of them doesn't mean

to say it wasn't also played at the Torch, maybe even on the same night.

[Guest Krissii]

Never really got on together like the Tops then?

watch this... it's brilliant!!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/191239713624?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108

slightly off topic so sorry about that...

back to the topic... I'd love to watch a post-Wigan documentary if any of you want to sell a couple of 7's and make one

[Speedlimit]

Quite an achievement filtering out all of the crap and taking the best from the Wheel, Wigan and the Torch for the whippersnappers of today. Nicely wiping out two decades of history post Dec 81, but we've come to expect that.

The only reason they missed out 81 to present day was because up till 10 years ago the three main interviewees  were missing from the scene. so couldn't comment on it, plus said venues of the 80's and 90's weren't run by them!!!!    :thumbsup:      

[Guest Byrney]

That's what I said.

"But Breaking Bad remained consistently brilliant from start to finish - the Northern Soul scene didn't, some people wouldn't want to watch what happened after Wigan."

This programme was targeted at the general public, so it reads as a reference to that audience as the scene after Wigan wasn't as good. Although some would say it was better.

But picking up your point as you meant it, that's so sad that those who dipped in only want to know about their time on the scene. Kind of confirms to me they're not really into it just the nostalgia and looking backwards.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Byrney

[Quinvy]

I wasn't around in the 80's and 90's but I would love to see a documentary on it. After hearing the tunes that were played in that period, I really wish I had been there.

I feel as though I missed out big time.

[Soulof]

Don't agree with the 1980s being 'difficult to convey' at all. A mention that the scene 'went underground' at Stafford, Clifton Hall, 100 Club and tons of other venues would have taken less than a minute. Plus there's actual footage from Stafford, Tony's and other places!

 

Remember when I watched the Leicester 84 video including the dance competition for the first time. Was on a high for months same effect as This is England footage did when watched it first time.    

[Speedlimit]

how can you not mention an allnighter that's run three times longer than the bloody casino ???? also how cant you mention the numerous weekenders that are now part of the sense culture .  beyond words you get waterman ,and the likes prattling on when you could have the countries top d.j, !!!!!  and no interview with Soul Sam , now that would have got tongues wagging lol .He could have given a fair prospective of the scene , He's been there  seen it done it and still as faith in what he plays.   :)    

[Psychedelic Soul]

Any TV programme about Northern soul seems to ckeep going over the same ground covering from the beginning to the end of the Casino. I went in the mid to late 70's. After that I drifted away until recently and would love to here about the rest of the history from the early 80's to the present

[Tricky]

Gave it a 1.

It was the usual same old crap.Dreadful.

 

Suppose its because i gave up on NORTHERN Soul early on as i soon realised it only meant dance music whether it was soul or pop .Liking Soul enabled me to encompass the whole lovely Black Music spectrum.Also not coming from the M62 corridor or being a miner i obviously didnt meet the criteria.Still like lots of us from Northampton,Wellingborough,Kettering,Corby,Harborough et all it was great fun thumbing it, jumping trains or borrowing cars to go up norf.   Lets not forget the other great niters that influenced our scene as well eh.Likes of St Ives,Peterborough,Yate,Stafford,and Clifton Hall to name a few. 

 

And please dont get me on BBC Motown when they show Gladys singing a non Motown number.Some chuffin Archive there then!!!!   

[Guest Byrney]

I was thinking in terms of the programme referring to the 'drying of of records' , and trying to explain the 80s scene playing 'newies' that in many cases were older than 'oldies'.(had a difficult time with that at my work)...records that the previous scene wouldn't have played...not typical NS

No offence to those clubs at all

Easy, replace newies with new 60s and 70s discoveries and cut the drying up of records statement in the edit as quite simply this was misguided at best. Then outline the scene took a new, underground direction, a purist approach, an era that didnt suffer fools gladly whilst unearthing records to rival (and in many cases exceed) the quality of the previous decade... etc etc. Peice of pi$$ this scriptwriting lark

 

In fact it's that easy to fit into the narrative and has so much dramatic content that I'm convinced its not there as some of 'us' involved in these things don't want it to be. 

 

 

No diversion required from the structure whatsoever.

[Mark R]

Suppose its because i gave up on NORTHERN Soul early on as i soon realised it only meant dance music whether it was soul or pop .Liking Soul enabled me to encompass the whole lovely Black Music spectrum.

Wise words........

Cheers,

Mark R

[Guest gordon russell]

Why do they drag out waterman?

nothing wrong with that..........they just don,t drag him out far enough lol

[Guest gordon russell]

To save an hour of your life here's a summary......

 

Back in the 60's a Mod from the Smoke moved up Norf' and got a job at the local Pit, he then swapped his scooter for a 2 up - 2 down Terrace and half a pound of Black Pudding, then spent all of the 70's dancing around the local bingo hall to Sugar Pie Honey bunch, except for a short period when a rich bloke from Blackpool played some Disco tunes he didn't like. However all the DJ's who invented Northern soul in the first place got together and sorted all the rubbish out so now all the Young souls only have quality rare soul to listen to like Duffy and Tribute.

 

Sadly however he died on the 31/12/79 after overdosing on his Whippets worming tablets which he mistook for Chalkies.

why are you having a go at CHALKY LOL

[Louise]

I've had this discussion with all the key players and collectors from that era many times about Levine's Miami hit. We all basically agree that he was in a very privileged position at the time. Most of us would argue, that, given the same advantage, i.e. rich parents, multiple free USA holidays and unlimited money,  then wouldn't we have been able to find the same records en masse? Obviously the ego within us all would argue that, yes, of course we'd have found the same records, but I'm really not so sure.

 

Levine on a mission is always a terrifying prospect. That's what you get with compulsive obsessives. Sure, he had some major advantages to be able to get there in the first place, but he really didn't f*ck around once there. He has very very good ears. No one else in the world would have given "Hung Up On Your Love" or "It Really Hurts Me Girl" a spin back then. He found 'em, played 'em first and persevered with 'em, which is why, despite his multiple personality flaws, I can't help but to continue to respect him. He's always put me onto great records including my favorite record of all-time, so he's down with me. Also, I should point out that Levine ALWAYS gives credit to the people who put him onto records first. He's very honorable like that in my view. 

 

And don't worry. The 80s will be coming up for review when the demographics for that decade kick-in, which will be shortly. The Richard's, Russ's, Curtis's, Levine's and Dewhirst's will be replaced very adequately by the Ady's, Keb's, Guy's, Dave's, Pat's etc, etc. This is an enduring scene and we'll always have great spokespeople whatever the era. You don't get to do this without a high degree of passion and that always translates beautifully whatever the medium. 

 

Ian D 

 Hi Ian

Not moving in such illustious circles as your self the best I can come up with to reinforce  my point  are the ramblings of a ex Glaswegian dustman and a an ex gas fitter from Hertfordshire. The Dustman by the name of John Anderson recalls Levine pestering him for a record entitled "It Really Hurts Me Girl" that he, Levine reputedly had heard played on the radio, stateside and couldn't find a copy. Lucky John put him out of his misery by finding one of the first two known white demo's out of his racks along with Eddie Foster's "I Never Knew" (amongst many, many others), Yes Levine did spin the Carstairs first but he didn't find it. On to the gas fitter a bashful guy known only as Mick Smith upon his return with his trusty man servant Clive from the states in March of 73 promptly sold Levine The first copy of Lee David "Temptations Calling My Name", Tony Clark's "Landslide and Patti Austin's "Painstain" so that's aleast 5 legendary classic's that didn't come out of the Miami load.

I too also agree with some of the previous other posters that Soul Sam should be included in any future attempted shows and how about another Northern Soul Lifer's contribution ? Keith Minshull some what disfunctional at times but he's got a memory like an Elephant 

Dave

Edited July 27, 2014 by Louise

[Guest gordon russell]

People are giving this too easy a ride. It was poor on pretty much every level. A good historical documentary should ask not only what happened but why. It lacked even the personal perspective of Paul Mason's programme. You never really got the impression that any of this meant anything to anyone involved and that's criminal. 

 

That's not to slate those scene figures who took part as talking heads, as I understand once the interviews are done so much is down to the editing process. They were all pretty good.

 

The interventions of the 'celebs' were embarrassing. Norman Jay and Waterman were winging it so much it made my blood boil. The Tony Blackburn contributions were irrelevant. I can't believe that you have to feature these people in order to get the thing commissioned. Norman Jay's had nearly 40 years' worth of opportunity to get involved in the scene since his mythic visit to Wigan yet I've never seen him anywhere. Why does he get approached for these things?

 

The production team talked to me because of the book, but once I made it clear I didn't want to be on camera they weren't interested. The programme makers just think about 'content' in terms of minutes of film in a shoddy production like this. In a lengthy phone call with one of the researchers I addressed pretty much everything which everyone has mentioned above as a potential pitfall or shortcoming–celeb dross, cliches about the industrialised North, ignoring the 80s and 90s etc.: I'm guessing the 'conversation' (I'm using the term loosely) went totally over their heads. 

 

Because of the scarcity of historical archive footage Northern is a difficult subject to bring to the screen in a documentary, but once again we've been let down by a hackneyed presentation which views the scene as a kind of curio or cultural irrelevance on their terms. Bitterly ironic because to me the thing started and developed in the way that it did precisely to get away from soul fans being patronised by the cultural elite.

They go to these people..........because they don,t know where else to go..........but we do!!!!

[Guest gordon russell]

Are you serious ?

 

Just because a tune was played at the Mecca first by either of them doesn't mean

to say it wasn't also played at the Torch, maybe even on the same night.

Have you got ya timelines straight...........if it was first played at the torch...........how could it be a future hit at the mecca?????..........how could they sit around someones flat  debating the merits of this new tune to be played that night at the mecca............when it had been played many times at the torch???

[paultp]

Watched it this evening, thought it was quite good and well balanced, everyone seemed to come over really well.

IMHO it didn't really cover much after Wigan as it was made from the point of view that Northern Soul was a youth culture of the 70's and is about to have (another) revival. It wasn't trying to document Northern Soul from the year dot to the present. It wasn't aimed at people who have ever been on the NS scene either.

Disagreed with whoever said you could get anywhere from Wigan and seemed to portray it as some sort of transport hub though, I only went once mainly because it took forever to get there and back.

That Marc Almond walked past the back door of TOS once when afew of us were getting some air, I offered him a flyer and said "Northern Soul mate?" And he told me to f*ck off. He used to go to Leeds Poly so there's no need for him to get hoity toity!

[Guest Byrney]

Watched it this evening, thought it was quite good and well balanced, everyone seemed to come over really well.

IMHO it didn't really cover much after Wigan as it was made from the point of view that Northern Soul was a youth culture of the 70's and is about to have (another) revival.

And that point of view is incorrect. It's a youth cult that started in the 1970s and continued. But I suppose that's enough and in some cases a preferable perspective for many of those who were only around for a few years until recently. A skewed perspective that obviously some of us struggle with.

On the score I gave it a 2.

[Staceys Dad]

 Hi Ian

Not moving in such illustious circles as your self the best I can come up with to reinforce  my point  are the ramblings of a ex Glaswegian dustman and a an ex gas fitter from Hertfordshire. The Dustman by the name of John Anderson recalls Levine pestering him for a record entitled "It Really Hurts Me Girl" that he Levine reputedly had heard played on the radio stateside and couldn't find a copy. Lucky John put him out of his misery by finding one of the first two known white demo's out of his racks along with Eddie Foster's "I Never Knew" (amongst many, many others), Yes Levine did spin the Carstairs first but he didn't find it. On to the gas fitter a bashful guy known only as Mick Smith upon his return with his trust man servant Clive from the states in March of 73 promptly sold Levine The first copy of Lee David "Temptations Calling My Name", Tony Clark's "Landslide and Patti Austin's "Painstain" so that's aleast 5 legendary classic's that didn't come out of the Miami load.

I too also agree with some ot the previous other posters that Soul Sam should be included in any future attempted shows and how about another Northern Soul Lifer's contribution ? Keith Minshull some what disfunctional at times but he's got a memory like an Elephant 

Dave

dont you know that levine  discovered everything .....just ask him....

Edited July 26, 2014 by staceys dad

[Geeselad]

Don't agree with the 1980s being 'difficult to convey' at all. A mention that the scene 'went underground' at Stafford, Clifton Hall, 100 Club and tons of other venues would have taken less than a minute. Plus there's actual footage from Stafford, Tony's and other places!

yep, and those clips look far cooler and underground than the the vestniks and baggy trousered philanthropists on this is England.  

[Geeselad]

Watched it this evening, thought it was quite good and well balanced, everyone seemed to come over really well.

IMHO it didn't really cover much after Wigan as it was made from the point of view that Northern Soul was a youth culture of the 70's and is about to have (another) revival. It wasn't trying to document Northern Soul from the year dot to the present. It wasn't aimed at people who have ever been on the NS scene either.

Disagreed with whoever said you could get anywhere from Wigan and seemed to portray it as some sort of transport hub though, I only went once mainly because it took forever to get there and back.

That Marc Almond walked past the back door of TOS once when afew of us were getting some air, I offered him a flyer and said "Northern Soul mate?" And he told me to f*ck off. He used to go to Leeds Poly so there's no need for him to get hoity toity!

I dont trust that marc Alomond either,  apparantly he had to be rushed to hospital and..........................................................................................., LOL. 

[The Animal]

You don't see many documentaries about Stamp Collectors, Metal Detecters, CAMRA (real ale lovers) etc.. etc... etc...

Just enjoy the fact the BBC have actually gone to the effort and expense of trying to tell a story about something which will never (NEVER) be fully told.

GOOD EFFORT.

[Frankie Crocker]

Can someone name a few of the records out of that haul please? 

Carstairs I would imagine. Miracle's Love Machine, Pointer Sister's Send Him Back, O'Jay's I lLove Music, the list of early 70's tunes is endless. Check out the Mecca CD's for lists of latest discoveries being exposed in the mid 70's. Can't believe that Detroit, Chicago and Los Angeles rarities were sitting around in Florida in their hundreds just waiting to be freighted off to Blackpool in a Wright Brothers plane with Mr Levine Snr chucking Gwen Owens out of the window to lighten the load...

[Guest Dave Turner]

Carstairs I would imagine. Miracle's Love Machine, Pointer Sister's Send Him Back, O'Jay's I lLove Music, the list of early 70's tunes is endless. Check out the Mecca CD's for lists of latest discoveries being exposed in the mid 70's. Can't believe that Detroit, Chicago and Los Angeles rarities were sitting around in Florida in their hundreds just waiting to be freighted off to Blackpool in a Wright Brothers plane with Mr Levine Snr chucking Gwen Owens out of the window to lighten the load...

 

You're a couple of years out mate as Miracles, O'Jays were 1975. The Miami (Flagler Street) Goodwill haul was all ex-radio station stock. He heard the Carstairs on the radio whilst in Miami which at that time was a demo only and couldn't get hold of a copy but found I think 3 copies in a then recent circa 100,000 load John Anderson had got in.

 

Graham Warr was the first to find the Goodwill haul, but only went through a small fraction of it and then put Levine onto it.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Dave Turner

[Orotava]

Any TV programme about Northern soul seems to ckeep going over the same ground covering from the beginning to the end of the Casino. I went in the mid to late 70's. After that I drifted away until recently and would love to here about the rest of the history from the early 80's to the present

 

Exactly the same here.  Early 80`s until fairly recently is a complete unknown to me.

[Kegsy]

Have you got ya timelines straight...........if it was first played at the torch...........how could it be a future hit at the mecca?????..........how could they sit around someones flat  debating the merits of this new tune to be played that night at the mecca............when it had been played many times at the torch???

 

Yes given that the Mecca became big after the Wheel closed in January 1971,

and the Torch opened in march 1972. 

Many of the records that were claimed to be played first at the Torch were originally

played at the Cats, Mecca, Up The Junction or even The L'ambassador in Bradford.

 

As for Thumb A Ride, I know I first heard it at Levine's house.

Whether he or Colin played it at the Mecca or Torch first who knows

a lot of gear has passed under the bridge since then.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Kegsy

[Dave Rimmer]

This thread is becoming very much like the programme itself.........same old same old !

 

I have to agree with most though, it was a good effort to portray the Seventies, (Which is what it professed to be) and someone should make a documentary that covers Stafford onwards.

[The Tempest]

Remember when I watched the Leicester 84 video including the dance competition for the first time. Was on a high for months same effect as This is England footage did when watched it first time.

Couldn't agree more

My mates big brother posted him the the video up to Scotland as soon as it came out, we bunked off school that afternoon to watch and the rest as they say is history, as I watched that video taking in every step, turn and spin in that dance competition, I knew then and there that I wanted to be part of this scene in its entirety.................... ,

The mid eighties on the soul scene was a very unfashionable and underground place to be, and we loved it, no more baggy trousers and vest brigade with cries of " Right on brother and keep the faith " , Jesus wept!!!

The amount of people I met as my job took me nationally who said, " I went to Wigan " was ridiculous! These weren't soul fans or even music fans but clubbers at the time who followed the crowd and went to where it was fashionable to go, they had nothing in common with me. and how I felt. I hated the fact that the Casino had attracted them in the first place.

I'm glad Peterborough, Stafford, Morecambe, Leighton Buzzard, Loughborough, Blackburn, not to mention Allanton , and the rest of them did'nt get a mention, my memories of these venues that brought me through the eighties and early nineties are safely preserved.

As previously stated the documentary was nothing more than a potted history of the scene with the focus firmly on the 70's. I enjoyed it.

Edited July 27, 2014 by 123-motown

[Kjw]

Enjoy the programme and the forthcoming film for what they are but bear in mind it won't be safe to go to a soul night for a while once Joe Public decide 'I'll have some of that'

 

It'll be drinks and barging on the dancefloor with a few fights thrown in at the end of the night

 

Dedicated soul fans will have to return to the all-nighters for a good six months until the novelty wears off