Tonite - Northern Soul Bbc Living For The Weekend

[jocko]

 

Well it wasn't much of a youth culture after the 70's was it? I was 19 in 1976 and joined the army, going to Wigan was one of the worst experiences of my youth and I don't pretend otherwise. I was never on the Northern Soul scene and never claim to have been.

I suppose they could have made a program about how the scene died on its arse after 1981 apart from a couple of 100 die hards, then documented a number of clubs where only Stafford seems to have made any real lasting impact, they could follow that with the 90's where there seemed so little going on that even a div like me started up a club just to hear some music I like. Followed by the 2000's with the rise of the fancy dress weekender, then today with a fractured scene split between nostalgia and the new new thing.

But it would be of no interest to the general public who tend to watch TV so why would they make it? You giving the documentary a 2 will not even register as far as the BBC are concerned they won't give a flying f*ck what you think because the program was not aimed at people who have spent the best part of 50 years on the Northern Soul scene - it was made for the general public.

I thought that compared with the usual rubbish that gets aired on the subject of Northern Soul it was actually quite good - even if it did miss out the essential discussion of matrix numbers.

 

Yes but it was made for people like you who were never on the scene until their later years. So job done. Your repeated mantra of Wigan was shit because of your one night there, shows why the scene of your days was full of Divs, and they continue to breed.

[Ian Dewhirst]

The Tony Blackburn sideshow doesn't really deserve correcting but as it shows the state of Wigan at the time I'll tell it how it was.  Mick Smith and I were record hunting down Portobello Road and went in a shop that only had a few LPs. I found the TB Polydor one with 'I'll Do Anything' on it so we bought it for 50p. Back at the flat we realised how dross it was but for a laugh decided to get an acetate cut and send it up to Keith Minshull who was DJing at Wigan then. We called it Kenny Gamble (the writer) and didn't tell him who it really was so that the joke would go further. Unbelievably it did and went massive which confirmed our view that Wigan had gone a long way downhill in those recent months. It was contrived as a joke about Wigan and worked.

 

So your fault then? 

 

Ian D 

[Kjw]

Ayup Kegsy. You're right that Cleethorpes combined the best of Wigan and Blackpool but it really only served to supplement these iconic venues. I only went to Cleethorpes once and was impressed despite having to sacrifice a night at Wigan. Cleethorpes evolved to cater for the masses east of the Pennines as much as anything with crowds from Leeds, Sheffield and the eastern counties. Back in the mid to late 70's, twenty year old soulies were guided by proximity and convenience when travelling on a Saturday. Back then, despite differing music policies at Blackpool and Wigan, punters tended to stick to their habitual haunts rather than switch venues. Nowadays, much more is made of the Wigan-Blackpool political divide than was apparent then with us youngsters attending and grumbling but not necessarily switching to Cleethorpes. To return to the theme, maybe Cleethorpes was in fact worthy of a mention in the documentary as it made an important contribution in breaking some new sounds and catering for a regional market distant from the north-west.

 

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Cleethorpes  was regarded by many as being on equal footing with Wigan and Blackpool - look at the DJ roster - Soul Sam, Ginger, John Manship, Ian Dewhirst, Poke etc

 

Plus they didn't just break a few new sounds - they were in abundance. Poke was pulling in new stuff all the time via John Anderson. Even one of the lesser know residents, Rick Todd, was credited with discovering Bobby Hutton - Lend A Hand, which went massive nationwide almost immediately.

[TheBigO]

 

The Tony Blackburn sideshow doesn't really deserve correcting but as it shows the state of Wigan at the time I'll tell it how it was.  Mick Smith and I were record hunting down Portobello Road and went in a shop that only had a few LPs. I found the TB Polydor one with 'I'll Do Anything' on it so we bought it for 50p. Back at the flat we realised how dross it was but for a laugh decided to get an acetate cut and send it up to Keith Minshull who was DJing at Wigan then. We called it Kenny Gamble (the writer) and didn't tell him who it really was so that the joke would go further. Unbelievably it did and went massive which confirmed our view that Wigan had gone a long way downhill in those recent months. It was contrived as a joke about Wigan and worked.

 

Damm you beat me to it Ady! I remember one night around Taffs (when he lived above the chippie in Letchworth and his flat was a mecca for al of us 14 year olds of a Saturday to listen to what the Guv'nor had acquired or to let us drool at his stunning array of UK demos) and he told us the story re TB and how it all went pear shaped as it became a monster. Mind you, he told us lots of great stories back then which should really be made into a book! I'm certain you feature Mr C ;-) 

 

One passing comment; the one thing that does annoy me about all documentaries on the scene, regardless of era, is that they never give the proper credit or explanation that many of the Soulies that were at Wigan or any of the other venues were from the South and the Midlands, Wales, Scotland etc, fanatically travelling across the UK to get their fix of soulful toons. Its a small point but one that really gets me ranting when I'm in the mood. 

[Guest in town Mikey]

 

 

 

I think my ire was first tickled when Mr Jay told how people in the queue were shocked that he and his pals had come all the way from London, so he was allowed to go to the front of the queue.

 

Now I chose not to go to Wigan, BUT speaking with total confidence as one can when never having been. I found that story more than worthy of a pfhhh!!! and an expletive to follow.

[Jordirip]

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Cleethorpes  was regarded by many as being on equal footing with Wigan and Blackpool - look at the DJ roster - Soul Sam, Ginger, John Manship, Ian Dewhirst, Poke etc

 

Don't forget the Mighty Bub.

[Kegsy]

Don't forget the Mighty Bub.

 

Once met NEVER forgotten !.

[KevH]

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Cleethorpes  was regarded by many as being on equal footing with Wigan and Blackpool - look at the DJ roster - Soul Sam, Ginger, John Manship, Ian Dewhirst, Poke etc

 

Plus they didn't just break a few new sounds - they were in abundance. Poke was pulling in new stuff all the time via John Anderson. Even one of the lesser know residents, Rick Todd, was credited with discovering Bobby Hutton - Lend A Hand, which went massive nationwide almost immediately.

 

Didn't know about  the "Lend a hand" crediting Kev. Suppose its all down to where you heard it first,and the memory of it.

[KevH]

I thought it was poor, full of sloppy generalisations and completely inaccurate assumptions like the factory workers and miners bit, the 70s north of England depression and the "you worked for a pittance and spent your Saturday nights on the dancefloor venting your anger". Even as a skint student in 1969/70 my weekends always started on a Thursday night at North Park Kettering dancing to 'Here I Go Again', 'Judge Baby I'm Back' etc and took it on from there. The country may have been depressed but we weren't.

 

I could waste the whole day going through it so I'll just mention two points.

 

Norman Jay did a disservice to the singers, producers, songwriters etc when he said something like "a lot of the records played were just demos". That's a lack of knowledge about 60s black American music and the Northern Soul scene which makes you wonder why he was asked his opinion if he cold get it that wrong.

 

The Tony Blackburn sideshow doesn't really deserve correcting but as it shows the state of Wigan at the time I'll tell it how it was.  Mick Smith and I were record hunting down Portobello Road and went in a shop that only had a few LPs. I found the TB Polydor one with 'I'll Do Anything' on it so we bought it for 50p. Back at the flat we realised how dross it was but for a laugh decided to get an acetate cut and send it up to Keith Minshull who was DJing at Wigan then. We called it Kenny Gamble (the writer) and didn't tell him who it really was so that the joke would go further. Unbelievably it did and went massive which confirmed our view that Wigan had gone a long way downhill in those recent months. It was contrived as a joke about Wigan and worked.

 

Could have been worse , they could have asked Jazzie B. 

[KevH]

I think my ire was first tickled when Mr Jay told how people in the queue were shocked that he and his pals had come all the way from London, so he was allowed to go to the front of the queue.

 

Now I chose not to go to Wigan, BUT speaking with total confidence as one can when never having been. I found that story more than worthy of a pfhhh!!! and an expletive to follow.

 

 

so he was allowed to go to the front of the queue. -   after having his pockets well and truly rifled.

[KevH]

so he was allowed to go to the front of the queue. -   after having his pockets well and truly rifled.

 

In fact he was bollck naked by the time he paid,save for a badge to cover his blushes.

[Andrea Ko]

so he was allowed to go to the front of the queue. -   after having his pockets well and truly rifled.

So if I had gone to the casino and had said I had come from abroad they would have let me play dj ;)! 

[Ady Croasdell]

Oh yeah, another thing    Most of the still photos they used were from the Northants/Beds scene that was running parallel to the North at the same time but of course didn't get a mention as it doesn't fit the white working class northern soulies blueprint.

[Kjw]

Didn't know about  the "Lend a hand" crediting Kev. Suppose its all down to where you heard it first,and the memory of it.

 

Rick told me that he heard it in a New York record shop, took about 10 copies of the LP and dished them out to some of the other Cleethorpes DJ's and Ian Levine etc

[Garethx]

Oh yeah, another thing    Most of the still photos they used were from the Northants/Beds scene that was running parallel to the North at the same time but of course didn't get a mention as it doesn't fit the white working class northern soulies blueprint.

From the photo archive of Norman Rogers. He has a mind-blowing collection of photos of the early scene: Kettering, Rushden and loads more from around there plus the best pictures from The Wheel I've ever seen. It would make a wonderful coffee table book for anybody with more than a passing interest in youth culture.

[Kegsy]

Rick told me that he heard it in a New York record shop, took about 10 copies of the LP and dished them out to some of the other Cleethorpes DJ's and Ian Levine etc

 

You've ruined it now.

I was waiting for someone to come on and say they had definitely seen this, 45 on U.S. ABC, on the

decks at so n so before Cleggy.  

Edited July 30, 2014 by Kegsy

[Steve S 60]

Oh yeah, another thing    Most of the still photos they used were from the Northants/Beds scene that was running parallel to the North at the same time but of course didn't get a mention as it doesn't fit the white working class northern soulies blueprint.

 

Couldn't afford cameras up north.

[Ian Dewhirst]

Couldn't afford cameras up north.

 

 

Ian D 

[Drewtg]

Forgive me but I haven't the time to read the whole thread but for my twopennorth:

 

1. I wasn't skint, I was still at school and ALL of my older mates had jobs (if they wanted), the economic decline came more to the end of the seventies with Thatcher et al.

 

2. There were people from everywhere, southerners being allowed to jump t'cue, don't make me laugh.

 

3. Anyone who danced to Tony Blackburn, Joe Ninety, etc. was either a tourist or off their box on speed. It was a disaster. BTW if anyone tries to tell me there is a N. Soul track by Lulu or Tom Jones I have the same response.

 

4. Nice to see Fran.

 

5. Can someone PLEASE give us some decent talking heads without recourse to Waterman, Almond and Stansfield. Surely researchers get paid to do this!

 

6. On the whole it were'nt bad.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Drewtg

[TheBigO]

Could have been worse , they could have asked Jazzie B. 

So true then the real story of what a bunch of raciest c**ts we really are could have been told! I almost choked on my biccy when that piece of crap was broadcast

[Guest Byrney]

In which case you've probably been aiming at the wrong target Byrney. Most of the proper DJs from the programme are still very much into hearing new rare stuff. Whenever I speak to Colin, Kev, Richard, Levine and others from that era, the conversation inevitably steers around to "have you heard ?????". It's like it's always been. Levine is the worst of the lot. If anything he's even more fanatical and passionate these days if that's possible. I don't know that I'd label any of us ''returnees'. As long as I've been around I've never lost touch, from finding records in the 80's to putting some of the first CD comps out in the 90s and doing radio shows and writing for Manifesto in the 00s.

But, then what occurred to me, is that Northern Soul is a constantly evolving beast and these pressure points are bound to happen to a scene which has lasted many of us a lifetime. It's really a phenomenon as most other music scenes bite the dust long before.

Whoops, at station. Gotta go...

Ian D

I'm not convinced Ian, sorry. When I left for a few years I was kept up to date weekly on new tunes, Dean Anderson was never off the phone with his 'you'll love this mate' plays so I kept in touch with what was happening but let me be clear, in no do I way consider myself to have been part of the scene then. I wasn't attending venues, I wasn't in the record bars, I wasn't on the dance floors (well I was but it was Venus, Garage City, Sub Club, Rennaisance etc )

Some of the names you've mentioned are legendary in my eyes but let's be honest (and at no point have I meant you) a couple have at best deleted the period they weren't there from history, numerous times I've heard Mr Roberts offer the same story about Northern Soul in the context of Wigan, Wheel, Torch (oops wrong order) with little mention of what followed. How on earth can you not mention Stafford and the 100 club, it's beyond me. And when they are included there's a caveat, a get out or thinly veiled dig if you will ( small venues, empty nights, music doesn't cut it etc).

There's nothing wrong with any of us dipping out, seriously; the issue is returning with an attitude that what happened in our absence is inferior, to be ignored, wiped from history or in some case on this thread intimated that the scene didn't cut it. I mean c'mon, the suggestion that some if these venues were empty. I'm struggling to think of any that were, even local soul nights like Ripley had 150 in.

For me it throws two fingers up the promoters, the collectors and the DJs who drove this thing of ours forward.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Byrney

[Newer]

Does any one see Stuart Cosgrove around any more? Maybe this is something he could pull together with Channel 4? We could even have a series by decade?

 

Maybe leave out the celebs who weren't actually there as well.

[Goldsoul]

I'm not convinced Ian, sorry. When I left for a few years I was kept up to date weekly on new tunes, Dean Anderson was never off the phone with his 'you'll love this mate' plays so I kept in touch with what was happening but let me be clear, in no do I way consider myself to have been part of the scene then. I wasn't attending venues, I wasn't in the record bars, I wasn't on the dance floors (well I was but it was Venus, Garage City, Sub Club, Rennaisance etc )

Some of the names you've mentioned are legendary in my eyes but let's be honest (and at no point have I meant you) a couple have at best deleted the period they weren't there from history, numerous times I've heard Mr Roberts offer the same story about Northern Soul in the context of Wigan, Wheel, Torch (oops wrong order) with little mention of what followed. How on earth can you not mention Stafford and the 100 club, it's beyond me. And when they are included there's a caveat, a get out or thinly veiled dig if you will ( small venues, empty nights, music doesn't cut it etc).

There's nothing wrong with any of us dipping out, seriously; the issue is returning with an attitude that what happened in our absence is inferior, to be ignored, wiped from history or in some case on this thread intimated that the scene didn't cut it. I mean c'mon, the suggestion that some if these venues were empty. I'm struggling to think of any that were, even local soul nights like Ripley had 150 in.

For me it throws two fingers up the promoters, the collectors and the DJs who drove this thing of ours forward.

Hang on there fella....I did mention the 80's and 90's for which I was very active in the latter. The fact remains they(Production company) wanted to know about the 70's and now.

As for driving it forward from 1990 onwards do you think The Ritz Manchester, Kings Hall Stoke and then Soul Trip USA and hundreds of thousands pounds of investment might have something to do with it?

I even had the decency to chat to the producers of the said docu to pass on some useful

Intelligence to maybe do a follow up utilising the services of many post 81 players. If it happens...don't forget me........

Remember there's a film just around the corner. Believe me that will attract non Soulies. You can bet your life on it.

Ian D might be the answer with his DVD box that contains interviews with a real wide variety of input. And don't forget Pete Smith paid homage to SWONS which covered the scene extremely well with a multitude of NS personalities.

To close, the scene has never been stronger IMO.

There are endless Soul nights, Rare ones, overseas choice, Weekenders, RnB, Fast n Funky, Handbag do's. What's  not to like right now.

As said before, let's see a programme based around post Wigan and see how the public react. It's definitely worth a shot mister TV producer.

Best Wishes to all.

Edited July 30, 2014 by The Golden 101

[Guest Byrney]

Hang on there fella....I did mention the 80's and 90's for which I was very active in the latter. The fact remains they(Production company) wanted to know about the 70's and now.

As for driving it forward from 1990 onwards do you think The Ritz Manchester, Kings Hall Stoke and then Soul Trip USA and hundreds of thousands pounds of investment might have something to do with it?

I even had the decency to chat to the producers of the said docu to pass on some useful

Intelligence to maybe do a follow up utilising the services of many post 81 players. If it happens...don't forget me........

Don't forget there's a film just around the corner. Believe me that will attract non Soulies. You can bet your life on it.

Ian D might be the answer with his DVD box that contains interviews with a real wide variety of input. And don't forget Pete Smith paid homage to SWONS which covered the scene extremely well and covered a multitude of NS personalities.

To close, the scene has never been stronger IMO.

There are endless Soul nights, Rare ones, overseas choice, Weekenders, RnB, Fast n Funky, Handbag do's. What's there not to like right now.

As said before, let's see a programme based around post Wigan and see how the public react. It's definitely worth a shot mister TV producer.

Best Wishes to all.

We'll have to take your word for that. You've been disparaging about the 80s scene and your thinly disguised digs on Face Book testify to that. I'm assuming that's what Led to Mr Thorley posting proof on here that contradicts your appraisal of the empty scene you wasn't part of.

On a programme post Wigan, it's not separate it's part of a continuum.

On the film, cannot wait, I'm a strong supporter and in my book non 'soulies' are more than welcome. Let's hope they're exposed to the full fruits of Northern Soul over the 5 or so decades it blessed our lives in one way or another.

[Ian Dewhirst]

I'm not convinced Ian, sorry. When I left for a few years I was kept up to date weekly on new tunes, Dean Anderson was never off the phone with his 'you'll love this mate' plays so I kept in touch with what was happening but let me be clear, in no do I way consider myself to have been part of the scene then. I wasn't attending venues, I wasn't in the record bars, I wasn't on the dance floors (well I was but it was Venus, Garage City, Sub Club, Rennaisance etc )

Some of the names you've mentioned are legendary in my eyes but let's be honest (and at no point have I meant you) a couple have at best deleted the period they weren't there from history, numerous times I've heard Mr Roberts offer the same story about Northern Soul in the context of Wigan, Wheel, Torch (oops wrong order) with little mention of what followed. How on earth can you not mention Stafford and the 100 club, it's beyond me. And when they are included there's a caveat, a get out or thinly veiled dig if you will ( small venues, empty nights, music doesn't cut it etc).

There's nothing wrong with any of us dipping out, seriously; the issue is returning with an attitude that what happened in our absence is inferior, to be ignored, wiped from history or in some case on this thread intimated that the scene didn't cut it. I mean c'mon, the suggestion that some if these venues were empty. I'm struggling to think of any that were, even local soul nights like Ripley had 150 in.

For me it throws two fingers up the promoters, the collectors and the DJs who drove this thing of ours forward.

 

Well, I think we're probably talking about different projects to be honest Byrney. I'm very well educated about marketing 'specialist' music and very experienced in terms of the media, so I view things in different ways to most. I was actually very apprehensive about how this show would turn out, but for entirely different reasons to many people on S.S. and obviously yourself. It's always a punt in the dark on these programs 'cos you're reliant on things which are way out of your own control, so it's always a leap of faith as to how it'll come out.

 

Nobody saw this show before it was aired, so nobody knew how it would come out. Also, nobody on the show (to my knowledge) talked to anyone else who was on the show, so there was no 'agenda' on the part of any of the interviewees. The researcher for the show asked me if I could get them in touch with Dave Clegg and Fran Franklin which I managed to do via Soul Source and Facebook (and a lovely result in my opinion, R.I.P Fran). I was pleasantly surprised to see Colin and equally surprised to see Pete Stringfellow, Marc Almond and Norman Jay. Fact is, I had no idea who was featured and how the show would be skewered and neither did anyone else to my knowledge.

 

It turns out that I kinda already vaguely knew the Director but, in typical Dewhirst fashion, I didn't click until after the shoot. It was James Maycock who, believe it or not, was a former compiler for Harmless in the 90s and thus before my time with the label. I've got his comps and they're great. But I didn't know that it was him at the time. I still haven't rung him. 

 

My thoughts on the show? 

 

Mainly relief. It had the potential to be so much worse and it turned out just fine in my opinion. A BBC4 prime-time Friday night show is designed for a wider audience, so this wasn't a show that was being designed for the cognoscenti on Soul Source. This was a show that was designed for snaring the right audience over the three separate time-slots over the weekend that it was shown and it hit that remit like a bullet I'm sure. Believe me, there's not a documentary ever made that I couldn't pull apart in 30 seconds if I wanted to, so it's almost impossible to make a mainstream TV documentary that's bulletproof for the hard-core experts. This is why I manage my expectations. 

 

I actually view all this very positively. In the heyday mid 70s ( )when Northern Soul was beamed to the masses via Top Of The Pops with Wigan's Chosen Few and Wigan's Ovation representing Northern Soul to the population, it became intolerable for me to carry on simply because of the amount of energy I was expending explaining to people that what they thought was Northern Soul was not actually Northern Soul. So I banished myself to be a self-anointed 'Returnee' who would eventually return like an avenging angel 40 years later and set the record straight. 

 

Let's not be too harsh folks. Finally we're getting some serious national exposure and respect with two hugely popular BBC documentaries and a world-class film, directed by a true Northern Soul believer coming up. We have a lot of friends in high places these days which befits a truly unique British cultural phenomenon and a special scene that has managed to last 47 years thus far. This is so much better than anytime previously believe me. I know it goes against the ethos but I honestly believe it'll be for the greater good. 

 

How many new young vibrant people could all this activity draw in and secure a future for an incredible scene? The timing right now is just perfect. We deserve to get some national attention godammmit!

 

In 2016 it'll back underground again......

 

Love the passion everyone!

 

Ian D X 

[Ian Dewhirst]

For me it throws two fingers up the promoters, the collectors and the DJs who drove this thing of ours forward.

 

It really doesn't mate. This documentary is simply the most obvious focus designed for the biggest demographic audience available at the time when it will be shown. In 6 years time it'll be all about 'what happened after Wigan and how sheer faith kept a dying scene alive for the next three decades' I can virtually guarantee. 

 

This is a story which is constantly evolving 'cos this scene is unique. A lot of passion involved, as evidenced by this very thread. 

 

Ian D 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Ian D might be the answer with his DVD box that contains interviews with a real wide variety of input. 

 

The Odyssey: A Northern Soul Time Capsule 1968-2014. Due in late October 2014.

 

Over 24 hours of interviews already with key people, covering all eras of the scene with everybody who has consented to be interviewed thus far. Some amazing stuff recorded and hopefully this will be the most comprehensive overview of the scene yet. Very exciting. Another 4 key interviews coming up in the next 10 days. Very exciting!

 

Ian D 

[Sean Hampsey]

These are the 1982 / 1983 results from the Black Beat magazine Annual Poll.

 

The Early 80's - Very Healthy Indeed as I recall:- Venue wise, Record wise and DeeJay wise!

 

Post Wigan and The Mecca - Not much sign of some of some 'names' but I'm sure they'd be the first to concede, they weren't really around much at the time.

 

Guess it only goes to show, every dog has his day, lol.

 

Interesting reading!

 

 

Sean

Edited July 30, 2014 by Sean Hampsey

[Driveller]

Norman Jay did a disservice to the singers, producers, songwriters etc when he said something like "a lot of the records played were just demos". That's a lack of knowledge about 60s black American music and the Northern Soul scene which makes you wonder why he was asked his opinion if he cold get it that wrong.

 

Forgot to mention this bit when I was saying why I was so unhappy with the documentary, but you're right, this was a terrible moment.  My assumption is he said it to lend some kind of 'underdog' romanticism to the artists, but it made it sound like he was guessing because he'd never heard any of it and felt he had to come up with a reason why some of it was commercially unsuccessful.  A dreadful disservice to the artists writers, arrangers and performers (many of whom WERE highly successful), and totally unjustified when you think of labels like Mirwood, Ric Tic, Okeh, Big Wheel etc and the efforts of people who had a hand in the sound like Arthur Wright, Curtis Mayfield, Major Bill Smith, Teddy Randazzo, Bridges/Knight/Eason, Freddie Perrin...actually, I can't go on listing because the names I'd get that prove Norman Jay wrong on this would be too random and there'd be too many people scandalously left out of the list however long I made it.  I've been re-reading Robert Pruter's superb "Chicago Soul" book lately, and just came across the remarkable fact that while signed to Okeh, Major Lance sold five and a half million records. But they were no more than demos, according to Norman Jay, so it must have been an accident.   Pitiful.

 

Nick

[Frankie Crocker]

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Cleethorpes  was regarded by many as being on equal footing with Wigan and Blackpool - look at the DJ roster - Soul Sam, Ginger, John Manship, Ian Dewhirst, Poke etc

 

Plus they didn't just break a few new sounds - they were in abundance. Poke was pulling in new stuff all the time via John Anderson. Even one of the lesser know residents, Rick Todd, was credited with discovering Bobby Hutton - Lend A Hand, which went massive nationwide almost immediately.

Without doubt, a scorching roster of DJ's but Cleethorpes came after Blackpool and Wigan, building upon the foundations and exposing new sounds as any good venue should do. The Pier never overtook Wigan. It complemented Wigan and forced the Casino to up it's game. Anyone who attended both Wigan and Cleethorpes Pier would have no doubts as to which was the superior venue back in the day and in a historical context.

[Frankie Crocker]

Furthermore.

 

As someone has already alluded to, Mike Walker/Russ started a rival all nighter in Cleethorpes,

at the Winter Gardens, in direct competition to the Pier.

It was a complete flop.

Would this be because people preferred the "Cleethorpes sound" to the "Wigan sound" at the time ?,

or do you think they went to the Pier because it was half a mile closer to the population centres you quote ?

 

Disclaimer, my geography may not be strictly accurate.

Not well up on the Winter Gardens story but had the impression punters would flit between the two. I was based in Manchester and North Wales 1974-1979 so going to Blackpool and Wigan was a no-brainer. I don't recall sitting in the Students' Union Bar debating whether to go to Cleethorpes as opposed to Wigan - it was logical to get the last train from Victoria to Wigan Wallgate AND the music was as good as it gets allowing for experimental attempts to introduce new sounds and blatant attempts to compete with the Mecca spins.

[Ady Croasdell]

 

 

Does any one see Stuart Cosgrove around any more? Maybe this is something he could pull together with Channel 4? We could even have a series by decade?

 

Maybe leave out the celebs who weren't actually there as well.

No, nice chap but he was proclaiming Northern was dead 15 years ago

[Kegsy]

Not well up on the Winter Gardens story but had the impression punters would flit between the two. I was based in Manchester and North Wales 1974-1979 so going to Blackpool and Wigan was a no-brainer. I don't recall sitting in the Students' Union Bar debating whether to go to Cleethorpes as opposed to Wigan - it was logical to get the last train from Victoria to Wigan Wallgate AND the music was as good as it gets allowing for experimental attempts to introduce new sounds and blatant attempts to compete with the Mecca spins.

 

People did indeed flit between the two, but not until the Wigan crew had left.

Mary, who ran the pier, opened the Winter Gardens, due to the numbers attending

being too many for the Pier alone.

[Kegsy]

Without doubt, a scorching roster of DJ's but Cleethorpes came after Blackpool and Wigan, building upon the foundations and exposing new sounds as any good venue should do. .he Pier never overtook Wigan. It complemented Wigan and forced the Casino to up it's game. Anyone who attended both Wigan and Cleethorpes Pier would have no doubts as to which was the superior venue back in the day and in a historical context.

 

The Pier certainly overtook Wigan musically at the time.

Whether it did in numbers terms is hard to establish without attendance numbers etc.

There will be little anecdotal evidence as not many would go to both on the same night,

except maybe some of the Dj's.

However the very fact that Mike Walker/Russ tried to set up at rival venue, which flopped,

speaks volumes to me.

 

You are correct that Wigan did up it's game in the late 70's, but then it needed to. 

[Tattoodave]

Not well up on the Winter Gardens story but had the impression punters would flit between the two. I was based in Manchester and North Wales 1974-1979 so going to Blackpool and Wigan was a no-brainer. I don't recall sitting in the Students' Union Bar debating whether to go to Cleethorpes as opposed to Wigan - it was logical to get the last train from Victoria to Wigan Wallgate AND the music was as good as it gets allowing for experimental attempts to introduce new sounds and blatant attempts to compete with the Mecca spins.

I was based in the Peterborough area and used to do Wigan one weekend and Cleethorpes the next, usually straight after a Friday nighter at St. Ives, Kettering or the Wirrina, Peterborough, it was never a Student's Union Bar job either, just a small gang of young teenage lads that wanted a good weekend

[Steve G]

These are the 1982 / 1983 results from the Black Beat magazine Annual Poll.

 

The Early 80's - Very Healthy Indeed as I recall:- Venue wise, Record wise and DeeJay wise!

 

Post Wigan and The Mecca - Not much sign of some of some 'names' but I'm sure they'd be the first to concede, they weren't really around much at the time.

 

Guess it only goes to show, every dog has his day, lol.

 

Interesting reading!

 

 

Sean

 

Thanks for posting that Sean. We (Blackbeat) were more aligned (but not exclusively) with the modern scene at the time and that is reflected in the readers favourites and DJs. Venues - I am sure Stafford and 100 Club came out on top or pretty near?

 

Steve

[Kegsy]

I was based in the Peterborough area and used to do Wigan one weekend and Cleethorpes the next, usually straight after a Friday nighter at St. Ives, Kettering or the Wirrina, Peterborough, it was never a Student's Union Bar job either, just a small gang of young teenage lads that wanted a good weekend

 

Perhaps you can give some insight into how Cleethorpes affected Wigan numbers wise etc.

[Frankie Crocker]

The Pier certainly overtook Wigan musically at the time.

Whether it did in numbers terms is hard to establish without attendance numbers etc.

There will be little anecdotal evidence as not many would go to both on the same night,

except maybe some of the Dj's.

However the very fact that Mike Walker/Russ tried to set up at rival venue, which flopped,

speaks volumes to me.

 

You are correct that Wigan did up it's game in the late 70's, but then it needed to.

Kegsy, you'd have been pretty daft (or dead keen) to take in both Wigan and Cleethorpes in the same night. I guess some of the Leeds crew probably achieved it accidentally as they were never much good at reading maps.

[Frankie Crocker]

I was based in the Peterborough area and used to do Wigan one weekend and Cleethorpes the next, usually straight after a Friday nighter at St. Ives, Kettering or the Wirrina, Peterborough, it was never a Student's Union Bar job either, just a small gang of young teenage lads that wanted a good weekend

Hi Dave, the reference to the Union Bar implied we knew where we were going without debating the music policy of Wigan v Cleethorpes. Based in Manchester, you could do Blackpool, Wigan and The Ritz in a weekend so there was no incentive to head cross country to Cleethorpes. The Beachcomber, main floor and M's at Wigan were an unbeatable combination that Cleethorpes could only aspire to.

[Swifty]

People did indeed flit between the two, but not until the Wigan crew had left.

Mary, who ran the pier, opened the Winter Gardens, due to the numbers attending

being too many for the Pier alone.

We used to go to both the Pier and Winter Gardens when Mary and Colin ran them , both venues used to be rammed , happy days .

Great music both new and old , used to buy stuff off Rick Todd and Dick Jervis which was nearly all new release stuff that was played at Cleggy.

[Reg]

 

 

96 Active NS venues in the 1980's.

 

 

Here we go folks 96 - Count em!

100 Club

78 Club (Letchworth)

Aberdeen Music Hall

Abraham Moss

Alfreton Leisure Centre Allnighters

Arbroath Smokeys

Assembly Rooms (Derby)

Barnsley - Port Cullis

Barrow

Bensons (Bradford)

Blackburn

Bubbles (Leicester)

Burnley

Canklow WM Club

Carlton Inn Morecombe

Carousel Manchester

Chesterfield "Winding Wheel"

Civic Hall Brighouse

Clifton Hall

Cotton's-Stockport

Coventry

Cricketers Wigan

Darlington

Drill Hall (Lincoln)

Droylesden

Dunstable

Edinburgh Queens Hall

Empress Ballroom (Mexborough)

Fife

Fleetwood

Function at the Junction

Fusion (Chesterfield)

Glenrothes

Gloucester Jamaica Club

Hinckley

Jesters

Keele

Kelsey Kerridge

KGB (Sheffield)

Leeds Allnighter

Leicester

Leighton Buzzard

Leven

Londoner Tracky Club

Loughborough

Mansfield Leisure Centre

Mansfield Swan all-nighters

Market Harborough Leisure Centre

Matlock Bath Pavillion

Morecambe

Newbury Soul Club

Newcastle

Olde English Matlock

Papa Luigis Peterborough

Parr Hall (Warrington)

Peterborough

Queens Hall Bradford

Redbrook Hotel (Rotherham)

Ripley Soul Nights

Rock City (Notts)

Romeo & Juliets (Sheffield)

Rotherham Clifton Hall

Scarborough (Rudies)

Sheffield

Sherwood Rooms Nottingham

Shotts Allenton Miners Welfare

Sloski's

Soul Cellar - Harlow

Southport Weekenders

St Ives

Stafford

Stamford

Swan Hotel Mansfield

TAC Yarmouth Weekenders

Take 2 Sheffield

The '81 Soul Club

Thorne Canal Tavern

Three Cups - Chelmsford

Tiffanys (Wigan/Sheffield etc)

Torksey

Trotters Mansfield

Tudor Barn Warsop

Turn-Ups (Sheffield)

Twisted Wheel 87

Warehouse Sheffield

Warrington

Whitchurch

White Horse Putney

Wigan Casino

Windmill Assembly Rooms

Winter Gardens (Cleethorpes)

Wirrina

Worksop Leisure Centre

Worksop Town

Yate

YMCA - Chelmsford

 

 

Although technically, the Carousel and Sloski's were the same place  :-)

[Mark R]

I love reading that places like Cleethorpes played a healthy amount of new releases. It tells me that some places were following the natural progression of playing the latest SOUL music, rather than the regression that Wigan seemed to suffer until Sam and Richard turned things around in the latter days.

Brings us nicely back on topic that biggest ain't always best from a musical integrity point of view, and it strikes me that Wigan was as bad as it were good in anything it sowed for the scene going forward. Pop stompers and Oldies all niters not being exactly the platform to spring a healthy progressive scene playing SOUL music.

But don't shoot me.....I wasn't there but do find all the history fascinating, especially the 'what might have been'!!

Cheers,

Mark R

[Simsy]

Although technically, the Carousel and Sloski's were the same place  :-)

 

I knew that .. 

[Kjw]

Hi Dave, the reference to the Union Bar implied we knew where we were going without debating the music policy of Wigan v Cleethorpes. Based in Manchester, you could do Blackpool, Wigan and The Ritz in a weekend so there was no incentive to head cross country to Cleethorpes. The Beachcomber, main floor and M's at Wigan were an unbeatable combination that Cleethorpes could only aspire to.

 

You've got it wrong again Frankie

 

There might have been competition between Wigan and Blackpool but Cleethorpes wasn't trying to aspire to either - they were setting their own standards

 

Mary & Colin Chapman were more than happy with what they had - a top list of DJ's playing a healthy mixture of old and new

 

Lots of new discoveries coming through from John Anderson, Dave Raistrick etc and they continued to keep coming into the 80's when DJ's like Arthur Fenn came on board

 

If you think they were trying to aspire to Wigan why did the Wigan promoters put on an all-nighter in Cleethorpes - would have been the other way round, wouldn't it

 

I'm not knocking Wigan - it played an important part in Northern Soul history but not as important as you maintain - there were lots of successful venues at the time - Notts Palais, St Ives, Coalville, Samanthas etc - not just Wigan and Blackpool

[Pete S]

I love reading that places like Cleethorpes played a healthy amount of new releases. It tells me that some places were following the natural progression of playing the latest SOUL music, rather than the regression that Wigan seemed to suffer until Sam and Richard turned things around in the latter days.

Brings us nicely back on topic that biggest ain't always best from a musical integrity point of view, and it strikes me that Wigan was as bad as it were good in anything it sowed for the scene going forward. Pop stompers and Oldies all niters not being exactly the platform to spring a healthy progressive scene playing SOUL music.

But don't shoot me.....I wasn't there but do find all the history fascinating, especially the 'what might have been'!!

Cheers,

Mark R

 

Mark, please accept this gift from me, Cleethorpes at it's absolute peak...

https://www.mixcloud.com/mayfairmenthol/cleethorpes-pier-allnighter-1975-northern-soul-live-tape/

 

1.Your Autumn Of Tomorrow

byThe Crow

2.DO THE PEARL GIRL

byTHE MATA BABY

3.Elijah Rockin' with soul

byHank Jacobs

4.I’M SPELLBOUND

byTamiko Jones

5.REACHING FOR THE BEST

byThe Exciters

6.Try a Little Harder

byKEYMEN STRINGS

7.CAN’T LOSE MY HEAD

byGEORGE BLACKWELL

8.Heartbreaker

byH.B. Barnum

9.Baby Without You

byDANNY MONDAY

10.TEARSTAINED FACE

byDon varner

11.So Is The Sun

byWorld column

12.RONA’S THEME

byRPM GENERATION

13.Destination Unknown

byDELRAYS INCORPERATED

14.She'll Come Running Back

byMel Britt

15.PARADE OF A BUNCH OF FOOLS

byEVE OF EDEN

16.Zola

byKing Errison

17.Ton Of Dynamite

byFrankie love man crocker

18.FULL TIME GROOVER

byBILL BRANDON & LORRAINE JOHNSON

Edited July 31, 2014 by Pete S

[Pete S]

I'm not convinced Ian, sorry. When I left for a few years I was kept up to date weekly on new tunes, Dean Anderson was never off the phone with his 'you'll love this mate' plays so I kept in touch with what was happening but let me be clear, in no do I way consider myself to have been part of the scene then. I wasn't attending venues, I wasn't in the record bars, I wasn't on the dance floors (well I was but it was Venus, Garage City, Sub Club, Rennaisance etc )

Some of the names you've mentioned are legendary in my eyes but let's be honest (and at no point have I meant you) a couple have at best deleted the period they weren't there from history, numerous times I've heard Mr Roberts offer the same story about Northern Soul in the context of Wigan, Wheel, Torch (oops wrong order) with little mention of what followed. How on earth can you not mention Stafford and the 100 club, it's beyond me. And when they are included there's a caveat, a get out or thinly veiled dig if you will ( small venues, empty nights, music doesn't cut it etc).

There's nothing wrong with any of us dipping out, seriously; the issue is returning with an attitude that what happened in our absence is inferior, to be ignored, wiped from history or in some case on this thread intimated that the scene didn't cut it. I mean c'mon, the suggestion that some if these venues were empty. I'm struggling to think of any that were, even local soul nights like Ripley had 150 in.

For me it throws two fingers up the promoters, the collectors and the DJs who drove this thing of ours forward.

 

If Kev Roberts wasn't on the scene in the 80's, just wondering how did he manage to put out something like 16 volumes of the Northern Soul Story double albums and a few Modern ones too, from 1986 onwards, all of which had at least 20% current or recent biggies on them?  How did he know what tracks to put on?

[jocko]

If Kev Roberts wasn't on the scene in the 80's, just wondering how did he manage to put out something like 16 volumes of the Northern Soul Story double albums and a few Modern ones too, from 1986 onwards, all of which had at least 20% current or recent biggies on them?  How did he know what tracks to put on?

 

As everyone keeps pointing out, the 80's decreased rapidly so it was pretty easy to know who was out weekly, Byrnie certainly was, I was out at least monthly and weekly end of decade. So its pretty easy to spot who was there and who wasn't. There are an awful lot of people who claim to be on the scene in 80's who were nowhere to be scene, pun intended.

 

Maybe my definition of on the scene is different from yours. 

 

I have just read a book about the 14th century, written by someone alive now, wonder if he had a time machine. 

 

This is getting both silly and further off topic.

[Pete S]

As everyone keeps pointing out, the 80's decreased rapidly so it was pretty easy to know who was out weekly, Byrnie certainly was, I was out at least monthly and weekly end of decade. So its pretty easy to spot who was there and who wasn't. There are an awful lot of people who claim to be on the scene in 80's who were nowhere to be scene, pun intended.

 

Maybe my definition of on the scene is different from yours. 

 

I have just read a book about the 14th century, written by someone alive now, wonder if he had a time machine. 

 

This is getting both silly and further off topic.

 

Well which one is it, we've got people telling us there were 1500 people in venues, and you're saying everyone knew everybody else because the scene was small.

[jocko]

As for driving it forward from 1990 onwards do you think The Ritz Manchester, Kings Hall Stoke and then Soul Trip USA and hundreds of thousands pounds of investment might have something to do with it?

To close, the scene has never been stronger IMO.

There are endless Soul nights, Rare ones, overseas choice, Weekenders, RnB, Fast n Funky, Handbag do's. What's  not to like right now.

As said before, let's see a programme based around post Wigan and see how the public react. It's definitely worth a shot mister TV producer.

Best Wishes to all.

 

I think you will find most people think  that the ethos of the Kings Hall was the beginning of the end for most people from that period, to be honest.  And the multitude of same old same old that is following your business model has killed anything like a progressive free scene, although obviously small pockets continue the fight. It may be popular but its far more in common with my Dads British Legion Sunday afternoon than anything I ever did on the niter scene.

 

I am desperately trying not to get into direct debate with you, as we know how it ends, but the naive part of me thinks if you want to engage in stuff like this, you must have a wider interest. However why is it all about your venues, that's exactly the point I am making. As always its all about numbers and pounds for you. If you only know about your world why try and have a dig at others. For lots of us it was about something different, maybe if you listen for once you might even remember the you of 1974.

 

The sad thing is you do your thing well, and as much as its the complete opposite of what I would ever want to do, there is a place for it. Your constant arrogance and bullying, and snide digs however just makes it  impossible to consider your opinion valid. And the USA things are a good point, lots of people raved about the artists, an equal amount, myself included, refuse to go because you promoted it. So why don't you step back from this, add what you know from your knowledge, and be honest enough to say what you don't know, cut out the self promotion and it might be possible to debate with you. 

[jocko]

Well which one is it, we've got people telling us there were 1500 people in venues, and you're saying everyone knew everybody else because the scene was small.

 

You were there. you must know.