Amsterdam Russ Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Sorry i meant "Stardust", But as the first issue on a 45 it has to be an original 45 issue (ie first time ever issued on a 45), original = first. Original in this context can only be applied to a legitimate release. It might be the first release, but it falls first and foremost into the category of bootleg 45 - albeit the original bootleg... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
El Corol Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) My definitions: Original - first legal press. Applies to local and later national releases, both original. Releases in other countries can be originals too if issued around the same time, e.g. within 2/3 years after the initial issue, e.g. UK Stateside issues Reissue - much later legal re-release due to demand, be it from the Northern scene or Doo Wop scene or whatever. Independent of country of origin, e.g. most UK Grapevine releases are reissues even though they're first UK releases. Pressings/Bootlegs: both the same, illegal re-releases. Or illegal presses of previously unissued recordings, e.g. Bob Dylan's infamous basement recordings. Counterfeits: Pressings/Bootlegs made with every effort to look like the original presses Have I forgotten anything?Edit: have amended the "pressings/bootlegs" bit. Also as you say these are "my" (your) definitions not necessarily everyone else's. Edited January 5, 2015 by El Corol Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) So what is your opinion on album only tracks, later released on a 45 to cover demand? As a bad example The Tempests - Someday on the Sevens label (although i'm not to sure of the legitimacy of this) are these an original 45? this would count as the original 45. That's a bootleg....Never issued as a 45 lp only and not legit...bootleg. Edited January 5, 2015 by Prophonics 2029 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Gogs Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Original in this context can only be applied to a legitimate release. It might be the first release, but it falls first and foremost into the category of bootleg 45 - albeit the original bootleg... I love the term "original bootleg", what about Martha reeves - no one there on UK motown originally an lp only track but later issued in the UK on a 45, does this count as a re-press or first 45 original? I know that you are going to say that as it was a legal press it is an original, but it was also it's first issue on a 45? So the difference is only the legality? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I love the term "original bootleg", what about Martha reeves - no one there on UK motown originally an lp only track but later issued in the UK on a 45, does this count as a re-press or first 45 original? I know that you are going to say that as it was a legal press it is an original, but it was also it's first issue on a 45? So the difference is only the legality? In a discussion about bootlegs of course the distinction can only be about legality. That's pretty much the whole point - is something a legal release or not? If a track is released on 45, that doesn't mean the subsequent LP release of it is not "original" or whatever. The reverse is also true. It's actually quite simple at the end of the day. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Gogs Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 In a discussion about bootlegs of course the distinction can only be about legality. That's pretty much the whole point - is something a legal release or not? If a track is released on 45, that doesn't mean the subsequent LP release of it is not "original" or whatever. The reverse is also true. It's actually quite simple at the end of the day. The title of the thread is actually "what is a pressing", no mention of bootlegs there. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The title of the thread is actually "what is a pressing", no mention of bootlegs there. The thread starter raises the subject of bootlegs in the opening post… Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Gogs Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The thread starter raises the subject of bootlegs in the opening post… Ok i'm being a bit pedantic here, but in a recent thread i asked about a copy of Edward Hamilton- Baby don't you weep on the UK Grapevine label (to do with value) that i had recently come across in one of my cupboards, as a legitimate release (and a first UK issue) does this mean that as a dj i could play this at an ovo night? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mike Lofthouse Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Sorry, but that's just semantic bullshit. Basically, bootleg=pressing=pirate copy. An illegal release. Please don't get into anal details, e.g. like some major UK company didn't have the rights to release certain songs back then. Or the recording wasn't released at the time e.g. Bob Dylan's basement tracks. If you press a record to satisfy demand from the peer group without the rights it's illegal, a bootleg, a pressing, a pirate copy. So you write a long paragraph of your 'definitions', yet I challenge one of them that is clearly incorrect and its 'semantic bullshit' and 'anal' - talk about the kettle calling the frying pan grimy arse!!! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
grouse Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) So what is your opinion on album only tracks, later released on a 45 to cover demand? As a bad example The Tempests - Someday on the Sevens label (although i'm not to sure of the legitimacy of this) are these an original 45? this would count as the original 45 release. (not that i would ever play it out (i don't even have a copy) but have seen it played. The Tempests and Martha Reeves on 45 would be a pressings, released specially for the northern scene. They may or may not also be a bootlegs depending on if they were released with permission, but I'll let the people who care about licences worry about that. Personally I'm not bothered. They're not an originals. The permission/licence thing is a totally different argument and as a reluctant PRS PPL fee payer I have views on the subject which I'll save for another thread. Edited January 5, 2015 by grouse Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Ok i'm being a bit pedantic here, but in a recent thread i asked about a copy of Edward Hamilton- Baby don't you weep on the UK Grapevine label (to do with value) that i had recently come across in one of my cupboards, as a legitimate release (and a first UK issue) does this mean that as a dj i could play this at an ovo night? The original release is Mary Jane, it is the copy I would expect any Dj that I was to employ to play it off or any Dj that I have paid good money to listen and dance to to play it off, it isn't as though it is super rare on Mary Jane either. If it is a UK release and unissued then fine play it as long as it is legal but if a US release, released at the time of the recording exists the. that is the copy that should be played at any OVO night as it seems to getting called. 1 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Amsterdam Russ Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Ok i'm being a bit pedantic here, but in a recent thread i asked about a copy of Edward Hamilton- Baby don't you weep on the UK Grapevine label (to do with value) that i had recently come across in one of my cupboards, as a legitimate release (and a first UK issue) does this mean that as a dj i could play this at an ovo night? While a legitimate first UK release, so many like this were issued solely to cater for a specialist niche market. In the spirit of collecting, I'd say that these shouldn't be played at strict OVO nights. In the spirit of listening and dancing to good tunes at a night out, why be so snobbish? There are arguments in favour and arguments against. That said, playing these easily found UK issues very much defeats the purpose of having a "rare soul" night! Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 As said it is really quite simple, some just muddy the waters or complicate the subject, usually to justify playing a dodgy sevens or other dodgy release out in the name of OVO. 3 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 The Tempests and Martha Reeves on 45 would be a pressings, released specially for the northern scene. They may or may not also be a bootlegs depending on if they were released with permission, but I'll let the people who care about licences worry about that. Personally I'm not bothered. They're not an originals. The permission/licence thing is a totally different argument and as a reluctant PRS PPL fee payer I have views on the subject which I'll save for another thread. Tempests is a pressing but Martha reeves was a legit UK release so is a UK original Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
grouse Posted January 5, 2015 Author Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) Tempests is a pressing but Martha reeves was a legit UK release so is a UK original I stand corrected on the Martha Reeves. Still done specially for the scene though so not intended for the general record buying public and years after recording. Edited January 5, 2015 by grouse Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Pete S Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I stand corrected on the Martha Reeves. Still done specially for the scene though so not intended for the general record buying public and years after recording. No but it wasn't though - it was just a bog standard release, I remember it being played on the radio when it came out in 1970 or 1971 - it wasn't until the 90's that it started getting played on the Northern scene, I remember thinking - why??? Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Mellorful Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 (edited) As said it is really quite simple, some just muddy the waters or complicate the subject, usually to justify playing a dodgy sevens or other dodgy release out in the name of OVO. Hi Chalky Where do you stand with: Early Dave Godin Soul City releases Ady C and his Kent (Town & City) labels 100 Club anniversary singles What should and shouldn't be played becomes a minefield; most people like to do the right thing but there is so much confusion surrounding acceptability. Personally I take the view if it's a legitimate release (inc reissue or UK release) and artist paid royalties then its ok with me hearing them played as a paying punter. Though when behind the decks I tried to play OVO but occassionally when I got a request and only possess a legit British then I have played them; to avoid offending folk I carry very few British these days. I admit to having a soft spot for British issue 45's and like to see em played as happens at Prestatyn on Sunday night when Nige & Sean battle it out with British. Atb Stu Edited January 5, 2015 by mellorful Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi Chalky Where do you stand with: Early Dave Godin Soul City releases Ady C and his Kent (Town & City) labels 100 Club anniversary singles What should and shouldn't be played becomes a minefield; most people like to do the right thing but there is so much confusion surrounding acceptability. Personally I take the view if it's a legitimate release (inc reissue or UK release) and artist paid royalties then its ok with me hearing them played as a paying punter. Though when behind the decks I tried to play OVO but occassionally when I got a request and only possess a legit British then I have played them; to avoid offending folk I carry very few British these days. I admit to having a soft spot for British issue 45's and like to see em played as happens at Prestatyn on Sunday night when Nige & Sean battle it out with British. Atb Stu Personally if a 45 has seen a US release already then I wouldn't play a UK reissue. If it has never been released then I wouldn't have any hesitation in playing something and I often drop an unreleased Kent 45 in a set. No hesitation in playing an LP either. That is just my own opinion and if I was promoting or paying to hear a DJ then I'd expect the same philosopy. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Chalky Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Hi Chalky Personally I take the view if it's a legitimate release (inc reissue or UK release) and artist paid royalties then its ok with me hearing them played as a paying punter. Though when behind the decks I tried to play OVO but occassionally when I got a request and only possess a legit British then I have played them; to avoid offending folk I carry very few British these days. I admit to having a soft spot for British issue 45's and like to see em played as happens at Prestatyn on Sunday night when Nige & Sean battle it out with British. Atb Stu By British do you mean 60's releases or something done recently? If recent then they aren't the original if they have had a US release already, even if they have been done right. Again it goes back to tailer made for the scene Agan it just undermines the DJ's who are doing it right adn I'm not saying Nige or Sean aren't doing it right, I know what calibre of DJ they are etc, two top lads. there are enough original records without resorting to tailor made material IMO. There are enough DJ's with the biggies too so they should be booked. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Gogs Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 By British do you mean 60's releases or something done recently? If recent then they aren't the original if they have had a US release already, even if they have been done right. Again it goes back to tailer made for the scene Agan it just undermines the DJ's who are doing it right adn I'm not saying Nige or Sean aren't doing it right, I know what calibre of DJ they are etc, two top lads. there are enough original records without resorting to tailor made material IMO. There are enough DJ's with the biggies too so they should be booked. The nites that i usually dj, although they can be busy i am usually the first set (hour) on, sometimes i get paid (sometimes enough to cover my traveling expenses, just) but other times i get nothing, but i do get in for free. Going back a bit i was a regular 1st dj on at a well known soul nite in Edinburgh i would do the first hour then work the door for the rest of the night and maybe get a tenner which was not even enough to cover my taxi home, why? because it got me out, like i said didn't have to pay the £5 door and most of all because i love the music. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) Ok. Edited January 7, 2015 by Prophonics 2029 Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Prophonics 2029 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I know it's beyond having in a play box but the Junior McGants Try Me For Your New Love.sounds very different from the Kent too King singles so.....to play one cause it sounds different and quality wise? ...hypertheticaly... Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Labeat Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 The nites that i usually dj, although they can be busy i am usually the first set (hour) on, sometimes i get paid (sometimes enough to cover my traveling expenses, just) but other times i get nothing, but i do get in for free. Going back a bit i was a regular 1st dj on at a well known soul nite in Edinburgh i would do the first hour then work the door for the rest of the night and maybe get a tenner which was not even enough to cover my taxi home, why? because it got me out, like i said didn't have to pay the £5 door and most of all because i love the music. Nice venue you have, the Hibs club, and Bonnyrigg by the way... nice people Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
Guest Gogs Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Nice venue you have, the Hibs club, and Bonnyrigg by the way... nice people Also great nites at the Gilmerton Miners Club, unfortunately the Spiders web nites have stopped although i understand that they have now found a new venue in Edinburgh, and just outside Edinburgh the Macmerry Miners Club is also well worth a visit. Link to comment Social source share More sharing options...
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