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I have to agree. i.m fed up seeing all these "re-issues" or whatever you want to call them !!. I no longer even look at Evilbay as 1. there are too many of these and 2. with a lot of records now you won't know that it is a "re-issue" "boot" or "lookalike" until you have actually got it in your hands.

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Not according to the prices regulary achived on E-bay, Manship's auctions etc, it's the more played to death has been records from the past that seem to reach top dollar.

I always thought you bought records first and formost for your own personel enjoyment not to enhance your ego and kudos, could this be the real reason for the initail vitriol on this thread ?

Dave

 

 

As Berry Gordy might have put it, "Its the dollars in the grooves that count".

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That's all well and good Neil them saying it won't devalue your original!!! the original is still the Original but who wants it when it's been played to Death!! by everybody who gets away with playing the £6 re-isssue or boot or second issue or whatever glossy term you choose to call them by!!! exactly Nobody!! So it does devalue it!!  :(

 

Perhaps it would help if you were to quantify the point you are trying to make.

 

For example;

 

By how much did the legit UK Tamla Motown issues of Frank Wilson devalue the original

Soul copies ?

 

or maybe

 

By how much did Ady Croasdale's release of Buddy Smith devalue the U.S. originals ?

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I dont buy them, deffo dont play them and wouldnt be seen dead at an event that does....

 

To me, its the same as fake clothes, watches, number plates, aftershaves etc, its false, come into the real world, its brilliant :thumbsup:

 

But they are not "fakes" and there isn't any intention to deceive people.

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I suppose re-issues are acceptable to some, it's when the bootleggers try to pull the wool with their "identical" copies that i don't condone because lets face it.... they are out to pass them off as originals.... and they succeed!

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I suppose re-issues are acceptable to some, it's when the bootleggers try to pull the wool with their "identical" copies that i don't condone because lets face it.... they are out to pass them off as originals.... and they succeed!

 

But that isn't the case here.

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Not according to the prices regulary achived on E-bay, Manship's auctions etc, it's the more played to death has been records from the past that seem to reach top dollar.

I always thought you bought records first and formost for your own personel enjoyment not to enhance your ego and kudos, could this be the real reason for the initail vitriol on this thread ?

Dave

 

I know what you're saying Dave in the long run it will recover and possibly get back to it's true value! But short term it takes a hit and also you lose a tune from your playbox as it will be played to death! Also the Frank Wilson Is a 1 to 2 known playable copies so a little unfair to pick that tune for a comparison!! Imho. John

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Guest johnny hart

Quite right, as long a Secret Stash have the rights and pay the royalties, where due, whats the big deal.

How much did Eddie Parker or his family get from the last copy of I'm Gone that was auctioned ?.

Well said Kegsy ,you speaketh mucho,common sense!

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I know what you're saying Dave in the long run it will recover and possibly get back to it's true value! But short term it takes a hit and also you lose a tune from your playbox as it will be played to death! Also the Frank Wilson Is a 1 to 2 known playable copies so a little unfair to pick that tune for a comparison!! Imho. John

 

Ok how about the Tamangos, what has happened to its value, because of the grapevine release ?

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I know what you're saying Dave in the long run it will recover and possibly get back to it's true value! But short term it takes a hit and also you lose a tune from your playbox as it will be played to death! Also the Frank Wilson Is a 1 to 2 known playable copies so a little unfair to pick that tune for a comparison!! Imho. John

 

100's of, not so rare, records have had their values inflated by actually being played to death.

 

Bettye Swann  - Kiss My Love Goodbye

Sam Dess        - Fragile Handle With Care

Stanky

 

Would you say any of the above were rare enough to command the silly prices they were selling for now or a few years ago.

How many collectors complained that they were played to death, when they sold the copies

they had bought years ago, for some ridiculous amount, based on the record's actual rarity.

Edited by Kegsy
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100's of, not so rare, records have had their values inflated by actually being played to death.

 

Bettye Swann  - Kiss My Love Goodbye

Sam Dess        - Fragile Handle With Care

Stanky

 

Would you say any of the above were rare enough to command the silly prices they were selling for now or a few years ago.

 

There Not RARE Records!

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In addition there are countless stories of dealers dripping out single copies over long

periods of time even though they have dozens of copies.

 

Danny Moore on Allrite or that Trickbag record spring to mind.

 

Dream Team on Gregory

Clara Hardy on Tuna

Four Tracks on Mandingo

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No they arn't, but neither are many of the records that sell for 100's of pounds these days.

It's all about popularity at a given time or the fact that people don't want to sell them

which inflates the price.

 

Have you any idea how many copies of Key To My Happiness were found on Bradford market ?

It now goes for 300/400, mainly because collectors hoard it because its such a great sound.

If all the copies came onto the market it wouldn't fetch a quarter of what it does.

 

Very True!! But still not what I would call rare!! But thats just my humble opinion!! Dave quoted an exceptionally rare record just my take on things but I didnt realise that Dave was going on about the first post which I hadn't read I was replying to the post made by La-Beat and his take on the damage that can be done! and as with your view on the Tomangoes all the boots and Grapevine etc it has stood the test of time but all those years ago there would have been owners of the original having a beef back then!! but back in the day the owner of the boots etc weren't DJ'ing with them, to hear top tunes you had to travel to hear the DJ's that owned them play them out!! not anymore. Just my humble opinion mind you!!

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Dream Team on Gregory

Clara Hardy on Tuna

Four Tracks on Mandingo

 

Funny you should mention Danny Moore just been talking to a record dealer this morning about that one not that many copies where found but the stampede started and that 45 has never recovered!! I actually overheard a conversation where one DJ was slagging it off saying not this crap!! It was excellent when selling for 4 figures sums then it's suddenly crap because the value drops!! I don't think so!!

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Very True!! But still not what I would call rare!! But thats just my humble opinion!! Dave quoted an exceptionally rare record just my take on things but I didnt realise that Dave was going on about the first post which I hadn't read I was replying to the post made by La-Beat and his take on the damage that can be done! and as with your view on the Tomangoes all the boots and Grapevine etc it has stood the test of time but all those years ago there would have been owners of the original having a beef back then!! but back in the day the owner of the boots etc weren't DJ'ing with them, to hear top tunes you had to travel to hear the DJ's that owned them play them out!! not anymore. Just my humble opinion mind you!!

 

That's because, back in the day, new tunes were being discovered at a rapid rate of knots

and DJ's knew there were plenty more out there to be played, when something was re-issued

or booted. That's not the case these days.

Also, back then,  loads of people DJ'd with pressings/re-issues AND unknown originals at local nights in the week,

Its wasn't like now where only the top DJ's break new sounds.

Where do you think I first heard Dean Parrish I'm On My Way ?, it was at a

local mid-week night in Selby, at that time it had never been played at a major venue.

 

People like Graham Slater, God rest his soul or Dave Box have probably discovered

more records than most big name DJs or dealers, but they hardly if ever DJ'd at any major

weekend venues on the scene.

Edited by Kegsy
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Here we go again, its amazing how in less than 12 months the Secret Stash guys have gone from hero's with the unisssued Ringleaders and Sharpees 45's to zero's with their current releases. Only last week the great unwashed of Soul Source were hailing Ady Croasdell as the greatest discover of unissued northern with a potential vocal version of Tyler & Davis's "Hold On Help Is On The Way" and this week your giving the Secret Stash guy's a kicking for doing exactly the same, come on double standards or what ! The secret tash guys have spent a lot of hardwork and their own money, buying the mastertapes etc from the family to produce a great product included the unearthing of circa 50 previously unissued tracks thus far !

Thet ought to be applauded not lambasted, for preserving the history and legacy of these great small independent black  Chicago ladels. There's one thing you lot need to remember, no matter how many thousands of pounds you spend on a record you only ever own the carrier not the music, The ownership of the music remains with either the label owners/producers/artists or the person/s to whom they ma have sold the rights on to at a latter date and it is theirs to do what they see fit with period.

Dave

Wotcha Dave. It's one thing to issue unreleased tracks on vinyl but another to re-release tracks on lookalike labels. Other outfits get by releasing series of CD's and this suits plenty of music lovers. It's worth noting that Ady combs through hundreds of studio takes to identify one or two high quality gems for 100 Club exposure and/or Anniversary singles and Kent label releases; wholesale reproduction of dud takes with a few marginally tolerable tracks is hardly something to be applauded. I can remember Rich Rosen trying to sell me 'Ringleaders' carvers a while back - I would be fairly dubious about anything put out by the Ringleaders unless there was sufficient evidence it was absolutely genuine. Sure, legacy is important but so too is the rare soul scene and the rare records it embraces.

Edited by FRANKIE CROCKER
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Guest nickw

Eric and Will at Secret Stash are unbelievably passionate about Chicago soul music, they are producing arguably some of the highest quality releases available currently and in that, they are bringing unheard music to us all. Do some of you want those tapes laying in the Leaners basement until they are past recovery so we never hear them? Sometimes I despair of peoples insular view of music.  

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Wotcha Dave. It's one thing to issue unreleased tracks on vinyl but another to re-release tracks on lookalike labels. Other outfits get by releasing series of CD's and this suits plenty of music lovers. It's worth noting that Ady combs through hundreds of studio takes to identify one or two high quality gems for 100 Club exposure and/or Anniversary singles and Kent label releases; wholesale reproduction of dud takes with a few marginally tolerable tracks is hardly something to be applauded. I can remember Rich Rosen trying to sell me 'Ringleaders' carvers a while back - I would be fairly dubious about anything put out by the Ringleaders unless there was sufficient evidence it was absolutely genuine. Sure, legacy is important but so too is the rare soul scene and the rare records it embraces.

 

Were they sat on top of boxes full of Trickbag ?

He seemed to have a plentiful supply of it last time I was there.

In fact I remember thinking it was well dodgy, and that it had just been pressed up 

off an old master tape or was a taylor made a la The Four Vandals.

As far as I know there are no promo copies and every copy I've ever

seen was brand spanking stone mint.

Edited by Kegsy
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Were they sat on top of boxes full of Trickbag ?

He seemed to have a plentiful supply of it last time I was there.

In fact I remember thinking it was well dodgy, and that it had just been pressed up 

off an old master tape or was a taylor made a la The Four Vandals.

As far as I know there are no promo copies and every copy I've ever

seen was brand spanking stone mint.

I'd already had the Excuses via an auction before visiting the Las Vegas store. As I was sorting out the piles into expensive, extortionate and ridiculous, he went around the back and slid this under my nose. He said he had a few and wanted two or three hundred for a copy but this was dependent on how much I spent... I now avoid Las Vegas, much as I like the place, and shun the Las Vegas dealers as too many peddle bootlegs etc.

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I'd already had the Excuses via an auction before visiting the Las Vegas store. As I was sorting out the piles into expensive, extortionate and ridiculous, he went around the back and slid this under my nose. He said he had a few and wanted two or three hundred for a copy but this was dependent on how much I spent... I now avoid Las Vegas, much as I like the place, and shun the Las Vegas dealers as too many peddle bootlegs etc.

 

There were 4/5 copies of Bettye Swann Kiss My Love Goodbye  plus multiples

of other Atlantic stuff that was going/had gone biggish at the time, in the cheap racks.

I wanted all of them, of course he went into his usual, you can only have

one copy of ANYTHING routine. He was shit scared of people knowing what was what before he did,

and missing out on a few dollars. Especially with UK customers.

Edited by Kegsy
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I think it's about time that the legal re-issue companies sued the arse off of people who call them bootleggers etc.

 

That would kill a few egos......

I don't see anyone accusing this Chicago outfit of anything illegal but the bigger issue is the proliferation of re-issues and especially lookalike labels that are clutterring up the sales lists and DJ playlists. Now, we are looking at a boxed-set trend that puts the scene on a par with Star Wars and Downton Abbey. Nothing wrong with a small, local project salvaging lost master tapes etc but getting pretty fed up with packaged product overwhelming the stacks of decent 60's lesser known records worthy of attention, and certainly worthier than much of the reissued stuff.

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I've noticed Secret Stash appear to have suffered from the bootleggers.

 

The Valdons "Stop, Wait A Minute" is now available on a yellow repress (SS original press is Yellow, and their second press is Gold). There now appears to be a further repress. Yellow label, but nothing like the first two ...

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351330186428

 

I assume it's a boot, as I can't see Secret Stash repressing it yet again, when they still have have Gold copies for sale.

 

Cheers

Mick

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Guest Mrs M

A very intense topic with a lot of opinions so forgive me if I repeat any of the above. Categorically agree with the 'royalties' and the scepticism surrounding if any are actually being paid to the artists or their families.

Whether they all have an impact on the devaluation of the originals, I don't think so. They may prevent the originals increasing in price but for me that's a good thing. We all know that your lifelong genuine collectors wouldn't even consider anything but the real deal or it would go against what they have honoured for decades. If prices stabilise because of it then a collectors wants list has a chance of becoming reality again. Too many flash, ego fuelled 'Wanabee DJ's' with fat wallets have outpriced so many records for the average hard working man/woman creating silly money price tags whilst lining the pockets of the profit making dealer.

Whoever is pressing them up are driven by greed and shamefully lacking in morals and all the idiots who are buying them blatantly represent the massive influx of middle-aged returnees over the past few years who spent 18 months going to Wigan, wouldn't know an issue, a demo or a bootleg from their retro 1978 Northern Soul attire that has recaptured the youth of the middle aged 'Soulie' who now sadly portray to the media a once cool underground music culture to now be an en vogue resurrected Northern Soul scene dominated in a world of baggie kecked, circle skirted,vested up old folks with KTF and KOKO tattooed on bingo wings and spongy muscles so everyone knows they are Soulies. Ask them what label Eddie Parker is on and they'll say 'I think it's a green one'. Ask them where you would find the snake pit and they would direct you down the path alongside the lake. Ask what is Van McCoy famous for and they'll say that's who Mr M's was named after to honour him fathering all 4 lads from Wigan's Chosen Few and being the voice that said 'Hi There Baby, I'm the Wigan Joker' only hours after finishing the lyrics to Footsee.

My silly sarcasm aside, the whole underhanded money making production they have going on will inevitably catch up with them and the illegal usage of every recording ending in prosecution when thousands of dollars worth of unpaid royalties come to light. I've already read a statement made by an artist who wasn't happy with a certain person who had put out numerous compilation cd's without having legal rights to reproduce. Shame people cannot follow by Ady Croasdell's standards of honour and respect.

Right I've gotta go now to try on my new full cirle skirt and practice my spinning without flashing my new control knickers exclusive to female soulies who find the KTF g-strings on ebay chaffe when doing high kicks and box splits. *Girls are out to get ya wooooo hoooo woooo hooooo'

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