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Pete S

The Following 45's Just Been Pressed

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All oldies - no rarities really - shouldn't upset too many I wouldn't have thought.

Suspicion/Inst-The Originals(Soul)

Nothing Can Help You Now-Lenny Curtis(End)

Don't Take It Out On This World-Adams Apples/Sweetest Thing-Channel 3 (Brunswick)

Baby I Need Your Loving-Gayle Adams/The Game Is Over-Brown Sugar(Capitol)

Aint Nothing Like Your Love-Charisma Band/Turning My Heartbeat Up-MVP's (Buddah)

Deep Dark Secret-De Dee Sharp/ Just Don't Know(Parkway)

Scotts On Swingers-Edwin Starr /Can't Stop Lookin For My Baby-Fantastic Four(Ric Tic)

Moonlight Music and You-Laura Greene/Lucky To Be Loved By You-Willie Hutch(RCA)

Let Your Heart and Soul Be Free-Tangeers /This Heart Of Mine-The Artistics(Okeh)

A Little Bit Hurt-Julian Covey /Green Door-Wynder K Frog(Island)

Our Love Will Grow/Youre Everything-The Showmen(Swan)

I Still Love You-Seven Souls/Right Track-Billy Butler(Okeh)

Surprise Party For Baby/Cause Youre Mine-The Vibrations(Neptune)

I Feel So Bad/Alt duet version-Jackie Edwards(Island)

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The question was 'what' not 'who'........but as you seem to be a bit of a wit and all round good egg, I'll give ground on that one!

Changing tack completely any body know what ever happened to Les McCutcheon. He was the guy behind the Colin Bee pressings & Destiny Records with Kev Roberts. I know he left the scene & went off to manage Shakatak during the Jazz Funk era.

Wondered if he'd ever surfaced?

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I bought a load of records off Les McCutheon about 5 years ago, he was based in Fulham. I think a lot othe records belonged to neil Rushton. he was still in the music biz and had gold discs everywhere...

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The question was 'what' not 'who'........but as you seem to be a bit of a wit and all round good egg, I'll give ground on that one!

Changing tack completely any body know what ever happened to Les McCutcheon. He was the guy behind the Colin Bee pressings & Destiny Records with Kev Roberts. I know he left the scene & went off to manage Shakatak during the Jazz Funk era.

Wondered if he'd ever surfaced?

link

Best thing would be to ask Kev who is on here, probably won't get an answer until after Fleetwood.

Mr Soulsmith you aren't John are you??

Trouty

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Changing tack completely any body know what ever happened to Les McCutcheon. He was the guy behind the Colin Bee pressings & Destiny Records with Kev Roberts. I know he left the scene & went off to manage Shakatak during the Jazz Funk era.

He runs Passion Music - the set up behind Expansion Records (Ralph Tee) amongst other things.

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When you say 'just been pressed' Pete do you mean on lookalike boots?

link

Yes. Only seen 2, jackie edwards on a red and white island and lenny curtis on the blue End label - really good lookalikes - but all number details changed so there's no mistaking them from the originals

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Thanks Pete. Any idea who is behind this? Are they officially licensed? If not then personally this pisses me off - for all sorts of reasons - and I don't think people should be selling them.

Bootlegs kill record collecting IMO and unless they are officially licensed they are straightforward theft from the original writers and artists.

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Turning My Heartbeat Up on UK Buddah can surely be picked up cheap enough, and is a legitamate release, Dee Dee Sharp was bound to get the treatment, but once again with a bit of detective work i'm certain an original can be had.(personally think its been played to death, but still a good sound)

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Thanks Pete. Any idea who is behind this? Are they officially licensed? If not then personally this pisses me off - for all sorts of reasons - and I don't think people should be selling them.

Bootlegs kill record collecting IMO and unless they are officially licensed they are straightforward theft from the original writers and artists.

link

yeah I do know the source but I can't comment on it, I just sell them as I have to make a living as do every other dealer who will stock them and have/do stock the previous ones. I don't think they make a bit of difference as far as the price of the original is concerned. People are still going to pay big money for rare records. Where records aren't rare in the first place like green door or gayle adams, no change there either. As for ripping off the artists and writers - long forgotten 35 year old records which didn't sell shit first time round, 300 new copies, artists wouldn't see any royalties anyway. It's a drop in the ocean. But like I said, I was just asked if I wanted to stock some titles so I said ok.

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yeah I do know the source but I can't comment on it, I just sell them as I have to make a living as do every other dealer who will stock them and have/do stock the previous ones.  I don't think they make a bit of difference as far as the price of the original is concerned.  People are still going to pay big money for rare records. Where records aren't rare in the first place like green door or gayle adams, no change there either. As for ripping off the artists and writers - long forgotten 35 year old records which didn't sell shit first time round, 300 new copies, artists wouldn't see any royalties anyway.  It's a drop in the ocean. But like I said, I was just asked if I wanted to stock some titles so I said ok.

link

That won't wash I'm afraid. It's copyright infringement - theft - pure and simple. Nothing against people making a legitimate living out of tracking down records, rare or otherwise, and selling them but to create product on the back of someone else's hard work, talent and inspiration and then sell it on is shabby.

Apart from that, making them look like originals creates a risk of ripping off unsuspecting buyers (though I'm not saying you are trying to do this) and also undermines confidence. Look at the current uncertainty over the Oxford Nights real/boot situation - with modern technology, bootlegging is getting easier and easier and all lovers of soul music, respecters of the artists and record collectors and dealers should be against boots/pressings/illegal re-issues without exception.

Thin ends of a thickening wedge are involved here. It's all about making a quick buck, it's short-sighted, it's wrong and I hope no-one buys these off you or anyone else, Pete.

Dan

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It's exactly the same thing - for instance, 3 records arrived this morning, Yvonne Baker, The Miracles and Jeanette Williams. I'm going to sell those records for 1000% more than they originally cost to buy and the artist is not going to see a penny, neither is the songwriter or the music publisher. It was made, it existed,it flopped, it died - 35 years ago. Thats the end of the story for that particular record. What happens later doesn't make any difference. What is the difference between me selling original records which the artists will not earn a penny from, and selling a bootleg of the same thing?

If I was a punter, I'd just be happy to be able to own a record that was out of my league price wise on an original.

Like I said, I don't make these records, I and everyone else sell them though, I'd just like to know what makes you think I owe a debt to someone who made a record 40 years ago and why I should even care about the multi-millionaire Berry Gordy not earning 1 cent for me selling an original WD of Whole Lot Of Shaking Going On In My Heart or a pressing of a record he deemed unfit to even release by The Originals.

One more thing - these records are not counterfeits, they are vague lookalikes, they have totally made up catalogue numbers, they appear on labels that the originals did not appear on (Cause You're Mint on Neptune for example) and they are never passed off as originals. You are talking about counterfeiting records which I dislike as much as anyone else.

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It's exactly the same thing - for instance, 3 records arrived this morning, Yvonne Baker, The Miracles and Jeanette Williams. I'm going to sell those records for 1000% more than they originally cost to buy and the artist is not going to see a penny, neither is the songwriter or the music publisher. It was made, it existed,it flopped, it died - 35 years ago. Thats the end of the story for that particular record. What happens later doesn't make any difference. What is the difference between me selling original records which the artists will not earn a penny from, and selling a bootleg of the same thing?

Like I said, I don't make these records, I and everyone else sell them though, I'd just like to know what makes you think I owe a debt to someone who made a record 40 years ago and why I should even care about the multi-millionaire Berry Gordy not earning 1 cent for me selling an original WD of Whole Lot Of Shaking Going On In My Heart or a pressing of a record he deemed unfit to even release by The Originals.

One more thing - these records are not counterfeits, they are vague lookalikes, they have totally made up catalogue numbers, they appear on labels that the originals did not appear on (Cause You're Mint on Neptune for example) and they are never passed off as originals. .

===============================================

:):)ph34r.gif

:angry: :angry: :angry:

:thumbsup::lol:

I GIVE UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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What is the difference between me selling original records which the artists will not earn a penny from, and selling a bootleg of the same thing?

Surely you don't really need this explaining, Pete? We have to assume that the artists were originally paid for their work - either in the writing or recording or both - and that the people who paid them secured their agreement to release the material legally and officially.

Once those records are released they are out there and they are morally and legally available for resale at whatever price the reseller can get. It's called a market. You can sell second-hand cars but you can't pinch Ford's blueprints and start producing your own Mondeos, mate.

If you, or anyone else, wants later to re-release material for profit you are honour-bound, duty-bound and legally bound to pay for that privilege. By way of a simple parallel, try reprinting Harry Potter books and flogging them in your local market. Except you won't do this because JK Rowling and her publishers have the financial muscle to deal with you for so doing.

If I was a punter, I'd just be happy to be able to own a record that was out of my league price wise on an original.

Yeah, when I was 15 I bought the odd pressing and I'm sure most of us did. We didn't really know any better then, though, did we? When I was a child I spake as a child and all that. This is about you selling them - the buyers have their own conscience to guide them, don't they?

Like I said, I don't make these records, I [just] sell them

This is on a par with 'I was only following orders'. Without fences there would be no burglars. To continue the Harry Potter example, try explaining to Trading Standards and the Police that you didn't produce the books, you just sold them.

I'd just like to know what makes you think I owe a debt to someone who made a record 40 years ago

Honour, duty and the law.

and why I should even care about the multi-millionaire Berry Gordy not earning 1 cent for me selling an original WD of Whole Lot Of Shaking Going On In My Heart or a pressing of a record he deemed unfit to even release by The Originals.

Berry Gordy's financial status is irrelevant; if you decide not to re-sell some rarity or other that you own, I can't just unilaterally decide that it should be sold, break into your house and flog it can I? If Gordy decides not to release something in which he owns the copyright that, I'm afraid, is that. At the absolute outside, in a 'for-the-good-of-the-soul-world' sort of argument, I could accept distributing material free of charge. Maybe. But not making money out of it. Finally, you aren't just talking about multi-millionaires, are you? Unless you've been to Lenny Curtis' mansion lately?

One more thing - these records are not counterfeits, they are vague lookalikes... You are talking about counterfeiting records which I dislike as much as anyone else.

link

On the above, finally, I refer you to your earlier response, Pete:

'JACKIE EDWARDS ON A RED AND WHITE ISLAND AND LENNY CURTIS ON THE BLUE END LABEL - REALLY GOOD LOOKALIKES'

So what are they: 'vague' or 'really good'?

I have no respect for the people who produce this garbage and I hope most other Soul Sourcers will agree with me. Ady Croasdell and Kent spend forever trying to trace writers and artists to make sure they are properly recompensed for the use of their work and if they can't find them they don't use it. That's why Ady and kent are so widely respected and why the rest of the bootlegging, thieving shysters out there are not.

Edited by Dan

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On the above, finally, I refer you to your earlier response, Pete:

'JACKIE EDWARDS ON A RED AND WHITE ISLAND AND LENNY CURTIS ON THE BLUE END LABEL - REALLY GOOD LOOKALIKES'

So what are they: 'vague' or 'really good'?

They are really good - but jackie Edwards has a catalogue number something like Island 001. Lenny Curtis has no number on the label whatsoever. These are the only two I've seen.

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I have no respect for the people who produce this garbage and I hope most other Soul Sourcers will agree with me. Ady Croasdell and Kent spend forever trying to trace writers and artists to make sure they are properly recompensed for the use of their work and if they can't find them they don't use it. That's why Ady and kent are so widely respected and why the rest of the bootlegging, thieving shysters out there are not.

link

Oh for goodness sake, did you ever see the Joker label perhaps?

Edited by PeteStoneIsland

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"Yeah, when I was 15 I bought the odd pressing and I'm sure most of us did. We didn't really know any better then, though, did we? When I was a child I spake as a child and all that. This is about you selling them - the buyers have their own conscience to guide them, don't they"?

I've got about 200 northern records in my collection, that's my own personal collection, I'd say 90% of them are pressings, I bought them to replace the originals which I sold to make a living on. That sounds like good business sense to me, not a childlike action. You are slagging off thouands and thousands of people who don't care anything about being elitist and having the record on the correct label. Like that Ty Karim record I got yesterday on Romark, I've got my own copy on some dodgy label, why keep a £500 record sitting on a shelf when there's a £15 copy already there.

Let's say the people who make these records manufacture 500 of each title, they do ten titles, thats 5000 records. In 6 months time there will be maybe 50 of each title left on the market. That means over 4000 people bought those records. Are they all 'children', are they all pirates/leaches/ne'er do wells? No, they're just people who want to be able to listen to the record they danced to. Those people are the majority, you and the other soul police are a tiny minority yet you think you have all the answers and all those answers have to be right because - well, just because you say so.

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PetestoneIsland,

Im a purist, and purchase only originals (but only now Ive got older and more cash) I see both sides of the story, the soul scene has been supporting/supplying bootlegs in one way or another since the good old 60's.

Most people who are bellyaching about royalties and the law, are no more than hypocrites, who...as youngsters in the scene bought whetever they could get their hands on including boots and then....when they get their hands on some disposable income become all high and mighty......only judge if youve not offended you whingeing gits.

By the way Dan, Petes right the originators and artists had there slice of the pie on the original sale and will still get royalties from airplay how can they possibly gain any other royalties its not as if they can claim on a private sale.

The only way for them to gain is if companies release legit reissues (but then even someone like Cliff Richards may lose out on that next year due to the law and expiry dates of copyrights etc etc)

but lets put it this way.... Are any of the organisers and promotors of venues paying up for the tunes they play in pubs etc each weekend, are they putting their hand in their pocket and saying "here you are Mr Gordy heres the Money we owe you for tonight plays" are they shite as like ( and dont any body quote PRS licences they pay piss all back, I worked in the entertainment/club trade and know all about that)

Nobody likes boots or reissues that much, but they are part of this crazy scene and the less fortuntate who cant afford it may have a chance of a piece of enjoyment,

By the way there is a collectors scene in the states that go only for boots as a lot of them are rarer than originals and big money changes hands.

Pete if it wasnt you supplying them it will be someone else.

Regards

Geeeeooooorrdie :thumbsup:

Edited by geordiejohnson

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Pete if it wasnt you supplying them it will be someone else.

Can I just point out that I do a list practically every week which is made up only of ORIGINALS! I haven't sold any of the last 3 batches of reissues, this time I was offered them so I decided to give them a go.

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Pete,

Wasnt implying you only sold boots apologies if it came across that way I just cant abide these born again purists....... Im one....... but I dont ram it down peoples throats

I do know what its like to have piss all money but just need to have a tune even if it was on a tape played on me auld philips tape recorder which went every where with me...................

Now theres a point did these whingers not have there auld portable cassette players that went everywhere with them at weekends and the battery was almost failing as you got to a venue ....am I missing something but wouldnt that be the same as bootlegging .....and are Dan and Co making up CDs on their PCs for playing or passing off to their friends

Geeeooooooordie :thumbsup:

P.S. pete send me a list

Edited by geordiejohnson

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A mate of mine runs a couple of anarcho-punk labels and ditributes stuff from all over the world. I'm pretty sure that he once told me that if he licenses a song that wasn't a hit he pays between $50 - $100 for the publishing rights as long as no more than 1000 copies are pressed.

Even that paltry fee goes stright into the pocket of whoever owns the publishing - and some investors buy up publishing rights - so the artist isn't going to see a penny once admin etc is taken care of.

Maybe Kev could shed a little light on this?

Godz

Edited by Godzilla

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Hi Godzilla,

Your right there, the current modern releases from Sharon Duffy were recorded 10 years ago the rights have been recently purchased by a person with plenty of wonga and poor auld sharon will get a paltry fee for her singing and slogging through the last 10 years in the wilderness.

The only people who get rich are the record companies, Now im not saying they dont sometimes have a hefty initial layout to recoup but reality is the artist gets peanuts in comparison

Geoooooooordie

PS Shane you didnt have much to say on this (most unusual)

Ha Ha

:thumbsup:

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.............

Most people who are bellyaching about royalties and the law, are no more than  hypocrites, who...as youngsters in the scene bought whetever they could get their hands on including boots and then....when they get their hands on some disposable income become all high and mighty......only judge if youve not offended you whingeing gits.

...snipped.

Regards

Geeeeooooorrdie :thumbsup:

link

bit of a sweeping statement that

and total bollocks in my view

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Whooops mike hit a nerve have I

Bought originals all your life and live to pay back the artsist do you

Arf Arf :thumbsup:

Why is it sweeping, I dont moan about boots there part of the scene, and when Im out and about those who whinge to me have, in the main, been people who bought boots themselves years ago.

So in my experience the comment sticks

So you can have yer bollocks back.....on a tray

Geeoooooordie beer.gif

Edited by geordiejohnson

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Whooops mike hit a nerve have I

Bought originals all your life and live to pay back the artsist do you

Arf Arf :thumbsup:

link

just thought that bit was total bollocks

sweeping statement like that usually are

no matter what your view

beer.gif

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Mike,

Love the banter, its sometimes hard to get your thoughts across in text so it can come out "vague"

however there are more serious parts to my original text like the PRS etc that gets overlooked and these are the systems that are (supposed to be) legally in place to help artists,

Nobody seems (at least not in the above threads) to be concerned about generating CDs on the computer or tapes etc etc...... is this not the same??

But heaven forbide some one presses it on to vinyl the jungle drums start hammering bad news .....Why???????????????? bootlegging has been there since vinyl was introduced.... like it or not (and I dont) we've just got to get used to it

PS did you get your bollocks back in one piece :thumbsup:

Geeooooooordie

Edited by geordiejohnson

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An alternative view - but one which I think is applicable to may people on here.

I'll buy lookalikes/boots to play at home when we're having on of our (very frequent) parties because I like playing vinyl.

On the other hand I have only once played those outside of the house - and was (rightly I now acknowldge) pulled up by a few people on the night (sorry about that!)

In fact as I type my bird has just put carol & gerri on the decks. She picked out the reissue, the original's there in the box.

It's not about morality, it's about honesty for me and anyone who wants to buy boots or lookalikes is free to do so. The only time it becomes a problem is if they try to play them out and pass them off as the real thing.

Every time we have a party 'Do I love you' gets banged on ( during that pissed-up 7am slot) - it wuldn't if I only had the original.

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Besides the royalties issue:

Why bother with 'Look-A-Like' labels?

Is it because every lazy wannabe DJ will go out and buy it, so that they can have the latest indemander without any of the footwork or expense.

If you're not bothered about bootlegs then why be bothered about the label design?

I find the 'boot' and 'Joker' bootlegs to be more honest than any of these lookalikes at least they arent passing them off as something they clearly arn't.

In my opinion spinning one of these lookalikes at a venue fools no-one and devalues the scene as a whole....by doing this you're pissing up the backs of hard working collectors and DJs who strive to 'keep it real'.

IMVHO your making a fool of yourself as well by playing into the hands of the bootleggers......

So come on then Pete, I challenge you to tell us who offered you the records for resale....lets have a go at tracing them back to source so we can bend their ear about them.

WOOF!

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Mike,

Love the banter, its sometimes hard to get your thoughts across in text so it can come out "vague"

however there are more serious parts to my original text like the PRS etc that gets overlooked and these are the systems that are (supposed to be) legally in place to help artists,

Nobody seems (at least not in the above threads) to be concerned about generating CDs on the computer or tapes etc etc...... is this not the same??

But heaven forbide some one presses it on to vinyl the jungle drums start hammering bad news .....Why???????????????? bootlegging has been there since vinyl was introduced.... like it or not (and I dont) we've just got to get used to it

PS did you get your bollocks back in one piece  :thumbsup:

Geeooooooordie

link

laughing here as lost what/where replying to

ack! as with all internet stuff its no big thing beer.gif

whole subject is wide open and sure been done to death before and will again in future

dunno bout bollocks still looking for some of this disposable income :lol:

mike

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Pikeys dog

In my opinion spinning one of these lookalikes at a venue fools no-one and devalues the scene as a whole....by doing this you're pissing up the backs of hard working collectors and DJs who strive to 'keep it real'.

I agree with the above you wrote, thats the real crux of the matter, that it devalues not just the scene but the artists as well,

Shane what do you think yer awfully quiet

:thumbsup:

Geeooooorrdie

Ha Ha mike just read yer reply your right but its great to be able to debate even if its done to death....now then that disposable income bit...I read about it somewhere and thought it sounded good so I added it beer.gif

Edited by geordiejohnson

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Why buy a dog and bark yourself?

I am with the dog on this one Geordie.

I bought a boot last week thinkin it may be real. not a pricey one so I wasnt too bothered. sold it on last night for the same price. However I told the buyer it was a boot.

Boots do cheapen the scene no doubt. I worry that the real pioneers of the scene, the likes of Butch etc, get that pissed off with it they stop digging deep for new 45s.

I think we have to protect the finders and pioneers of the world because without them things will come to a standstill with regards to the upfront scene. I love the idea of things still being covered-up at the Lifeline by the likes of Butch and Andy Dyson. To hear something amazing every couple of months is so much more special to me than hearing it every weekend 3 or 4 times a night.

Stop kicking the DJ's and collectors in the bollocks with your boots is my message to the likes of Petestoneisland. It does nothing positive for the scene.

Shane

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geordie have you read the Bobby sheen thread in the look in your box section. If not then have a read and then tell me boots are ok.

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Tubbs

Yes and......................????????????????

You obviously have not read my threads I have not said boots are ok what I have said is, they are there, they always will be there, and theres probably shag all me and thee can do about it,

I buy originals only and are not keen on the shady dealers, but have long stopped trying to sweat the things that I have f**k all influence over, this scene is far bigger than anyone.

Artists are ripped off legally as well as illegally via unfair contracts etc etc

that probably costs them more than a few hundred bootlegs sold at a car boot on a Sunday morning ...so lets get it into perspective

and hurray for Pete for letting us know whats been booted so no mug can buy them

Geeoooordie

Edited by geordiejohnson

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Quote"Boots do cheapen the scene no doubt. I worry that the real pioneers of the scene, the likes of Butch etc, get that pissed off with it they stop digging deep for new 45s."

Who put out the Soul Bros inc in the eighties?

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Boots do cheapen the scene no doubt. I worry that the real pioneers of the scene, the likes of Butch etc, get that pissed off with it they stop digging deep for new 45s.

I think we have to protect the finders and pioneers of the world because without them things will come to a standstill with regards to the upfront scene. I love the idea of things still being covered-up at the Lifeline by the likes of Butch and Andy Dyson. To hear something amazing every couple of months is so much more special to me than hearing it every weekend 3 or 4 times a night.

Doubt the likes of Butch and Andy D will ever stop collecting but there will come a time when he says enough is enough and quit DJing. It can be very frustrating for them to see others using their knowledge for own gain, be it going after sounds they find or certain records being booted or even legally re-issued :angry:

The scene was built on hearing newies week in week out and I can't understand why that has changed and the majority want safe records and are happy for others to play boots and re-issues when there are collectors out there with the real deal who never get the chance to DJ...strange world of northern soul indeed. :angry:

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The scene was built on hearing newies week in week out and I can't understand why that has changed and the majority want safe records and are happy for others to play boots and re-issues when there are collectors out there with the real deal who never get the chance to DJ...strange world of northern soul indeed.  :angry:

link

Hear hear! thumbsup.gif I would love get behind those decks a bit more, but manage perhaps 4/6 times a year, which I suppose is a lot more opertunities than some get, but it is frustrating when you spend forever finding stuff, only to go to a soul night and hear inferior tunes and boots! :angry:

(Lookin' forward to my bit of 'Deck time' at the next Wilton, somewhere that always appreciates the real deal collector/Dj! :thumbsup: )

Who put out the Soul Bros inc in the eighties?

link

Guy-90's, He's still got boxes full!! :lol: Edited by trevski

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Looking back at my original posts on this, maybe I came across as a bit sanctimonious and holier-than-thou. That wasn't meant and I wasn't really intending to have that big a go at you either Pete. I don't think you should sell boots but I can see 1) that you were at least describing them as boots and 2) that you have to make a living. I'm one of those people who bunged you a tenner when you had all that trouble and I don't even buy records off you. But the basic point stands: bootlegs are rip-offs and are bad news.

To respond to a few points made:

I've got about 200 northern records in my collection, I'd say 90% of them are pressings, I bought them to replace the originals which I sold to make a living on.

You are slagging off thouands and thousands of people who don't care anything about being elitist and having the record on the correct label. Like that Ty Karim record I got yesterday on Romark, I've got my own copy on some dodgy label, why keep a £500 record sitting on a shelf when there's a £15 copy already there.

I'd question a few things here. Firstly, the common sense of this argument: what the hell is the point in paying £15 for a boot when you could stick it on a CD? (In answer to another point raised later asking what's the difference between making CDs and tapes of non-copyright material and pressing boots, my view is that if you're making the CDs/tapes to sell there is no difference but if you're making them for home use and to pass on to mates free of charge that's fine; this has no impact on artist royalties where records are 30 years old and there is no available official supply to disrupt. To be strict about it, I guess when something is re-issued or available officially this changes). Secondly, I'm not 'slagging off' the buyers particularly. People really can do what they want with their money and if it makes them happy good luck to them (though I appreciate the end-user argument inherent in all crime). In order of slagging off, I'm going firstly and mainly for the producers and secondly for the retailers. However, I would question whether there are 'thousands and thousands' of people who buy bootlegs. There are some - witness the mad prices paid on ebay, for instance - but most people prefer original 45s. It's not about 'elitism' - that's just the way it is.

Thirdly, I know you are a record collector, Pete, and one with many years' experience. Therefore you don't really need me to answer your question about why keep the Ty Karim but how about the romance, wonder, elation, satisfaction and pleasure of tracking down (hopefully for less than £500) and owning an original against the wholly pointless (in the CD age) and empty experience of buying a boot?

Those people are the majority, you and the other soul police are a tiny minority yet you think you have all the answers and all those answers have to be right because - well, just because you say so.

What is the 'soul police'? If it's people who prefer to hear soulful material they've not heard a million times before played on original 45s whether in their own bedroom or at venues then I'd be delighted to be a member...as most other people on this forum would be I'm sure? If you are implying that this 'soul police' is a self-appointed bunch of busybodies going round telling other people what to do then I'm definitely not a member. Firstly, I hardly ever 'go round'. Secondly, who am I to tell anyone what to do? All I am doing is voicing an opinion and suggesting that bootlegging is wrong. This is a discussion forum, after all; it would be fairly dull if we all stuck to a consensus, no?

PetestoneIsland,

Im a purist, and purchase only originals (but only now Ive got older and more cash) I see both sides of the story, the soul scene has been supporting/supplying bootlegs in one way or another since the good old 60's.

Doesn't make it right, Geordie.

Most people who are bellyaching about royalties and the law, are no more than hypocrites, who...as youngsters in the scene bought whetever they could get their hands on including boots and then....when they get their hands on some disposable income become all high and mighty......only judge if youve not offended you whingeing gits.

I think Mike has correctly identified this as 'sweeping bollocks' Geordie! As I said, I bought the odd bootleg when I was 15 but that was because I didn't know any better. From the time I was about 17, when people who knew better explained that it was pointless, I only bought originals and I certainly didn't have any disposable income! My view was then and is now: if you can't find the record at the right price and can't afford it at the UK price, don't buy it. There's plenty of great £10-20 sounds out there even now.

By the way Dan, Petes right the originators and artists had there slice of the pie on the original sale and will still get royalties from airplay how can they possibly gain any other royalties its not as if they can claim on a private sale.

The only way for them to gain is if companies release legit reissues (but then even someone like Cliff Richards may lose out on that next year due to the law and expiry dates of copyrights etc etc)

I understand all this but none of it is relevant to the essential point, Geordie.

I just cant abide these born again purists....... Im one....... but I dont ram it down peoples throats

Mate, I'm not a 'born-again purist' - I'm 37 now and have had these views for 20 years. I don't ram it down peoples' throats either - I wouldn't dream of it, not my business, even if I ever went out anywhere. However, on a discussion forum...

Now theres a point did these whingers not have there auld portable cassette players that went everywhere with them at weekends and the battery was almost failing as you got to a venue ....am I missing something but wouldnt that be the same as bootlegging .....and are Dan and Co making up CDs on their PCs for playing or passing off to their friends

I've explained the difference here. Of course I used to go to nighters and tape sounds but I didn't sell the tapes on. Equally, I make CDs for people now and am glad to receive them, free of charge. However, this is different from re-recording material which is current; if you copy Eminem and ping it around to everyone you are directly affecting his record sales. If you copy The Salvadors, you aren't. If, however, you press up The Salvadors and sell it on, The Salvadors should benefit. That's all I'm saying. And I'm not a 'whinger' - just expressing an opinion!

You obviously have not read my threads I have not said boots are ok what I have said is, they are there, they always will be there, and theres probably shag all me and thee can do about it,

You can try not selling or buying them?

Artists are ripped off legally as well as illegally via unfair contracts etc etc

that probably costs them more than a few hundred bootlegs sold at a car boot on a Sunday morning ...so lets get it into perspective and hurray for Pete for letting us know whats been booted so no mug can buy them

Agree with this point but that doesn't make further ripping off acceptable, does it? Take Eddie and Ernie; Eddie died in poverty and Ernie is pushing a shopping trolley around containing his belongings when he isn't in jail. Ady Croasdell had the tapes and could have just whacked out a CD, sat back and enjoyed the royalties. However, he (specifically John Dixon) found Ernie and Ernie now enjoys at least some of the fruit of his labours in his old age - together with the knowledge that he wasn't forgotten and he did matter.

Now you can defend the bootleggers all you like and you can accuse me of being a 'born again purist' and a 'whinger' but this is what it comes down to: this is what - in my opinion - being a soul music lover is actually about.

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Wha hey Dan

thats what I like, someone who comes back fighting, makes this scene what it is,

Some good points as well but lets be real, How much did Ernie actually get????

hey im not saying Ady didnt do the right thing..he did.... but I bet the money was

Probably not a lot, once all the initial layout etc was taken into consideration, the Contract and licensing holders get most of the money, ie the record companies

Re Dave rimmers comment in the Patrinell Statton Threads, that it is Rare that the artists hold the rights to any thing....he's right

The artists get the shit end of the wedge most of the time.

As I kept saying I dont like boots, I even said I dont buy boots, I went to pains to say Im a purist

What are your thoughts on the PRS the very legal vehicle that is there to protect the artists etc and ensure royalties get paid???? NOOOOoooo body has commented on that .....why...... coz its a hazy crazy framework that gets virtually nothing back to the artist and few people understand it, but it is a start in trying to get at least something back.

Im not advocating anyone should buy boots or even condon them, after nearly 28 years collecting Ive resigned myself to the fact that its not going to go away and that goes for any kind of counterfeit products in all walks of life.... I just make sure I dont buy them.

Your comment:

Looking back at my original posts on this, maybe I came across as a bit sanctimonious and holier-than-thou.

Yeh you did.... thats why I went after your comment....come on its fun to have these discussions and hey dont get me wrong, also educational to get others comments that can change your perspective which some of your last (biography) threads did... so cheers for that............ and on top of that it seems that everyone was getting their bollocks out which was fun also.

Chin Up dan

We live to fight another Day

Geeooooordie :thumbsup:

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Yeah you're right, Geordie - it's all about opinions and nothing more. Sitting at my PC, trying to avoid doing what I should be doing...so let's, to quote Mrs Merton, have a heated debate!

You're also right re the PRS, re artists being ripped off in the first place and re the fact that any monies they would receive from an insignificant pressing run being, well, insignificant.

That said, at risk of banging on, the fact that the world is imperfect doesn't mean you shouldn't bother doing your bit, or that you should resist having a pop at anyone who bootlegs, particularly on a semi-industrial scale, be it CDs or vinyl.

It's all about the PRINCIPLE!

Er, sorry...just caught meself banging on!

Blah blah blah...principles...ramble ramble...artists...etc etc ad nauseam....

Anyway, what do you think of my avatar (just worked out how to attach one!)?

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Dan,

Top Banana reply (to quote my youngest).... Hey like the avatar also

Im still trying to work out how all this lot goes together have to mail trevski as he changes his layout daily.

Your right we should at least try to do something but probably our best and sometimes only line of defence is as you say not to buy them.

We are as well sadly coming into a time period where all the rights for many artists

will dissappear through law and it will be a free for all for the scavengers and shilocks of the dishonest record world and...........bloody hell Dan your rubbing off onto me.

hey look at the other thread (morals) Ive posted you a reply

:thumbsup:

Geeoooordie

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Just thought throw up outta intrest bit about Ernie Johnson and royalties -

this bit below is from the interview that pushed up in article section here

Articles: Soul People :: Transcripts of Interview with Ernie Johnson and John Dixon

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/a...hp?storyid=1608

.......

JB - I'm sure it was very nice for you to recoup some of the money you made when the CD came out. EJ- It was a little bit, it wasn't very much. It was like 2700, but after I paid some people some bills it was gone. We get royalties twice a year so maybe something will come up, I have got a few debts which doesn't feel to good, but I hope they are people that trust and believe that when I get some money I will try to pay them..........

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