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Mal C

The Cost of Soul 45s?

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The Cost of Soul 45s? I've seen a distinct rise in Northern and Modern soul 45s in the last two months, especially on this site. I dont know what to attribute this to, maybe summer, maybe not..demand obviously, but there are some vary off the mark prices, and Ive seen the same track listed at the same time between multiple sellers at very different prices...not the real rare stuff either..

Dunno what do folk think?

Mal

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It's now a worldwide market.There are a lot of young hotboxers who would rather pay large sums for in demand records than have a roomfull of 10 pound records.Most of the top 500 records are expensive because they are bloody good and they have more people chasing them.I sell on discogs and it's not just soul.I sold a music from Follyfoot lp the other day for Fifty quid!! It's a good time for vinyl in general...will it last??? I can only afford big records when my.paypal account tops up from discogs sales.

Edited by wiggyflat

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I've seen the rise start from about Feb/March onward. There used to be a time when buying in July and for sure August you could get a bargain, those days seem to have vanished. I tracked about 30 records on Ebay last night, they went for "silly" money, looks like we're back to 2006 pricing if not more, must be a younger audience rather than old soulies. Hope it stays, got 2 big batches to sell later in the year :yes:

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I think your observations are right. The prices are rocketing exponentially for the rarer, classic, top-drawer sounds but also the recently unearthed obscurities and minor plays from the past. Just look at what's happened to the Salvadors, Lonnie Lester, Alpacas and Southside Movement to name but a few. There is clearly a resurgence in record buying by both young and old collectors. Spinning vinyl has become fashionable again and the turntable market has undergone something of a rebirth. Not only is demand on the rise but supply has virtually dried up with the primary source of second hand USA imported records being somewhat thin on the ground despite the contributions of a few key dealers. The secondary sources of USA records are also proving to be more expensive with collectors hanging on to their treasures and only parting with them reluctantly to finance long-term wants and dealers waiting for major collections to come up for sale. The internet makes it easier for the well off to bid (or overbid) but there are plenty of bargains to be had as no-one can track every record for sale 24/7. 

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Maybe the penny is finally dropping that the classics [and I mean from all the eras i.e. Stafford as well as Wigan] are very special records, and a lot of the "other" stuff isn't worth collecting.

Quality not quantity is the only way to go. The only people who call it "hot boxing" are the people who have been collecting for collecting's sake, and have boxes full of mediocre stuff they will never be able to sell. Good luck to them, everyone to their own, but please don't knock others who only want to own the best.

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Quinvy I have my own hotbox and collect all genres of music and not only soul.There is no denying that some people collect top end current rarities and biggies and some of those hotbox items will not necessarily retain their hotbox status....as in what Curtis Brandon would say The Long Run.The big solid tried and tested northern oldies look like they will though....I'm not knocking hotboxers.

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The Cost of Soul 45s? I've seen a distinct rise in Northern and Modern soul 45s in the last two months, especially on this site. I dont know what to attribute this to, maybe summer, maybe not..demand obviously, but there are some vary off the mark prices, and Ive seen the same track listed at the same time between multiple sellers at very different prices...not the real rare stuff either..

Dunno what do folk think?

Mal

I agree that some records seem to be overpriced.  There seems to be quite a few tunes that were regularly  £50 - £75, that are now being listed at £100+.

I now just buy from one or two record dealers, as some I feel are just charging extortionate prices for common records. So much so that I sometimes can't even be bothered to look at their listings.

What I'm saying is, that you're not alone in thinking that way. 

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It seems to me that anything half collectable and a good tune starts at 100 quid!

Are you really serious when you say that a good tune starts at £100?. Your going to feel silly when next year you buy something for £100 that you could get today for £50/£60 or even worse £95. And remember prices go down as well as up - there are 100's of sales lists littered with records that are £££££'s below what they went for in the past. It's all to do with changing tastes and the type of tunes that get played out and there will come a time when the newbies and even the returnees etc get sick (again) of hearing the same 500 or so records and prices will surely fall.

 

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I've only been collecting for a couple of years, and stay well away from the Top 500 and known expensive rarities.... Unless I win the lottery many of these sounds (on original vinyl) are way out of my price range... The Broadways sold for over £120 last week.... usually a £40 record, and I've seen a lot of "look-a-like" bootlegs going for over £50 each on Ebay which is ludicrous!!! These are worthless from a collectors point of view so the only people who can be buying then are "DJ's" hoping to pass them off as the original release to play out..... Seems to me it's a rich-man's game at the moment

I spend quite a bit of time searching and listening to tunes I've never heard before, and only buy records which I have a genuine liking for myself - many costing between £5 - £50. I have no interest in owning an expensive record purely because it's rare, and this is the way I'm going to build up my collection.

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I think pricing records has become so difficult these days because what a record will sell for is so unpredictable.

It seems that there are quite a few people who are happy to pay any price to get hold of a record, they don't care that they've paid over the odds for something. If you have an in demand and/or rare record to sell, how on earth do you price it given that scenario?

The sad thing for me is that some of the records I'd like to have are now unattainable as there are people who will pay anything for them. On the other side of the coin some genre's seem to be out of fashion so prices are not so daft, I buy male voice mid-tempo more than anything these days and have picked up quite a few over the last year or so at reasonable prices.

There's still a lot of less well known records out there at reasonable prices but if you want the well known quality records you need to dig deep these days.

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Are you really serious when you say that a good tune starts at £100?. Your going to feel silly when next year you buy something for £100 that you could get today for £50/£60 or even worse £95. And remember prices go down as well as up - there are 100's of sales lists littered with records that are £££££'s below what they went for in the past. It's all to do with changing tastes and the type of tunes that get played out and there will come a time when the newbies and even the returnees etc get sick (again) of hearing the same 500 or so records and prices will surely fall.

 

It is my opinion on what I am looking to buy, yes I do buy records of lower value now, records I like which have got f**k all to do with top 500.

as for feeling silly, yes many times oh learned one.

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I think that the unpredictability factor had definitely come into it, sellers who would have normally set sale at a certain price, now try their luck as something very inflated...and can we blame them really... I just personally wont buy from them, but there seems to be no shortage of folk out there with pocket fulls of cash to spend on rare and not so rare soul and funk, at silly prices...

I agree with Paul above, they are out there if your prepared to look, and at prices to make you smile.... for what its worth, I really do shop about to get stuff at the right price, and I'm prepared to wait it out in most cases...see thats something you get as you get older, these younguns are all biting at the bit with their cash at the ready... only to find the same record half the price a month later... we've all done it!

Mal

Edited by Mal C

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Maybe the penny is finally dropping that the classics [and I mean from all the eras i.e. Stafford as well as Wigan] are very special records, and a lot of the "other" stuff isn't worth collecting.

Quality not quantity is the only way to go. The only people who call it "hot boxing" are the people who have been collecting for collecting's sake, and have boxes full of mediocre stuff they will never be able to sell. Good luck to them, everyone to their own, but please don't knock others who only want to own the best.

theres an element of that i reckon combined with kids left home or  im gonna take 25% pension TFC and spend it now or some such like changing money event.

there are kids buying them too though, especially in euroland. good time to be small time dealer as a 20 something portugese kid for example. skim 1000 euros a month from buying and selling and you can live like a king (or queen) currently

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It seems to me that anything half collectable and a good tune starts at 100 quid!

nah, plenty of tunes under 100 quid, loads that will be over that price in the future still about cheap too.

just listen for quality. i dont think rarity is that much of a factor in a lot of cases either.

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The Cost of Soul 45s? I've seen a distinct rise in Northern and Modern soul 45s in the last two months, especially on this site. I dont know what to attribute this to, maybe summer, maybe not..demand obviously, but there are some vary off the mark prices, and Ive seen the same track listed at the same time between multiple sellers at very different prices...not the real rare stuff either..

Dunno what do folk think?

Mal

Its not so much a recent thing, although I agree that there does seem to be some hyper inflated prices in recent months. Back in the mid 90's I wrote an article for a fanzine that was going to start up (but never did) and it was all about the jump in prices around that date and the reasons for it. I based my theory on getting a list from a dealer, who then went to the US and put a similar list out a couple of months later on their return. The prices had gone up with a £5 record going to £10, a £20 record going to £40 and so on. Often the price of a record bears little resemblence to the rarity. Think Bobby Reed on Bell, a very common record on a major label yet it still gets top pricing. So I thought about other factors and besides the obvious of dealers making profits and there seemed one major factor at the time. Many soul fans who left the scene when Wigan shut its doors - along with many other clubs also - it seems they began to return around this time coining the phrase used sometimes as "returnees". As they were off the scene getting married, kids, university or whatever they were doing other clubs took the mantle of Wigan e.g Stafford and they tended to play a different type of "northern" sound and catered for other types of soul music. So my theory at the time was that the returnees were listening to alot of new tunes and were eager to purchase, hence the jump in price due to demand not rarity.

Today as someone has already mentioned, there are some different factors. The liquidity of a certain age group has improved with kids gone, mortgages paid and pension pots up for grabs they want to buy something near and dear to them - perhaps their favouite 45? There is also the factor that "northern soul" has gone global to a certain extent so UK collectors face more competition from overseas. Look at the low rider scene around LA and California, where our some of our treasured 45's are in demand for the sweet harmony flip. There is another factor in diminishing finds as more "mom and pop" stores, "one stops" and warehouses have shut down over the years and apart from a few exceptions large finds have been rare. Tastes change also, just look at some of the more funky stuff being played out at todays venues.

There are of course the die hards. Those who must have the latest and greatest because "xyz" DJ or dealer said its going to be massive. Most people understand the hype but I've seen people get burned as copies come out of the collections as the price grows ever more expensive.

All this means that we are bound to see whats happening now, with some very surprising sums being paid for what many assumed were common records. I think the Top 500 will always command good prices whether you like them or not. Some newer discoveries have remained truly rare and maintain their value, others will surface and prices drop accordingly.

I guess you pays your money - you takes your choice !

Edited by Andy Mac
grammar

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I agree, lots of valid points in all the above replies, and we may never know if its one certain thing, all we do know is, they seem to be getting costlier again... One thing I have always thought about, is what I loosely term the generation handover, by that I mean the guys that were buying in the sixties, then seventies, and so on are all getting older, and those collections become avaialbe as time marches on... but I think in the next 5 maybe 7/8 years there will be a influx of 45's onto the market that might outstrip demand in terms of there being more records avaialbe... its a fact, the sixties generation are disappearing, or bluntly dying, will that become a big driver in this I think, bigger than a find in the states of a stash or records say..

dunno, what do you all think about that one?

mal

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Its not so much a recent thing, although I agree that there does seem to be some hyper inflated prices in recent months. Back in the mid 90's I wrote an article for a fanzine that was going to start up (but never did) and it was all about the jump in prices around that date and the reasons for it. I based my theory on getting a list from a dealer, who then went to the US and put a similar list out a couple of months later on their return. The prices had gone up with a £5 record going to £10, a £20 record going to £40 and so on. Often the price of a record bears little resemblence to the rarity. Think Bobby Reed on Bell, a very common record on a major label yet it still gets top pricing. So I thought about other factors and besides the obvious of dealers making profits and there seemed one major factor at the time. Many soul fans who left the scene when Wigan shut its doors - along with many other clubs also - it seems they began to return around this time coining the phrase used sometimes as "returnees". As they were off the scene getting married, kids, university or whatever they were doing other clubs took the mantle of Wigan e.g Stafford and they tended to play a different type of "northern" sound and catered for other types of soul music. So my theory at the time was that the returnees were listening to alot of new tunes and were eager to purchase, hence the jump in price due to demand not rarity.

Today as someone has already mentioned, there are some different factors. The liquidity of a certain age group has improved with kids gone, mortgages paid and pension pots up for grabs they want to buy something near and dear to them - perhaps their favouite 45? There is also the factor that "northern soul" has gone global to a certain extent so UK collectors face more competition from overseas. Look at the low rider scene around LA and California, where our some of our treasured 45's are in demand for the sweet harmony flip. There is another factor in diminishing finds as more "mom and pop" stores, "one stops" and warehouses have shut down over the years and apart from a few exceptions large finds have been rare. Tastes change also, just look at some of the more funky stuff being played out at todays venues.

There are of course the die hards. Those who must have the latest and greatest because "xyz" DJ or dealer said its going to be massive. Most people understand the hype but I've seen people get burned as copies come out of the collections as the price grows ever more expensive.

All this means that we are bound to see whats happening now, with some very surprising sums being paid for what many assumed were common records. I think the Top 500 will always command good prices whether you like them or not. Some newer discoveries have remained truly rare and maintain their value, others will surface and prices drop accordingly.

I guess you pays your money - you takes your choice !

Think this just about sums it up.......

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I agree, lots of valid points in all the above replies, and we may never know if its one certain thing, all we do know is, they seem to be getting costlier again... One thing I have always thought about, is what I loosely term the generation handover, by that I mean the guys that were buying in the sixties, then seventies, and so on are all getting older, and those collections become avaialbe as time marches on... but I think in the next 5 maybe 7/8 years there will be a influx of 45's onto the market that might outstrip demand in terms of there being more records avaialbe... its a fact, the sixties generation are disappearing, or bluntly dying, will that become a big driver in this I think, bigger than a find in the states of a stash or records say..

dunno, what do you all think about that one?

mal

I agree, I think the number of collectors will inevitably diminish as we leave this mortal coil in ever increasing numbers over the next 5,10, 20 years. Plus some will decide to sell up and cash in while they can and the number of new collectors won't match the ones leaving.

As you say, at some point supply will definitely outstrip demand and prices will fall.

However, there's no sign of this happening yet and to be honest I predicted years ago that the bubble would burst for the flood of Sky money into football and that hasn't happened (and doesn't look like doing so) so who knows??

Only two things are certain in life, one day you're born and on another day you die…….:huh:

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People have been saying this for many years, but it never happens. There have been some incredible collections sold in the last few years, but these records were snapped up and are just as scarce as they have always been. 

New to the market finds from the States are drying up. That's the real reason that prices are going up, combined with the fact that most on the scene want to be Dj's. Nearly all the people who I considered  dancers are now Djing. 

A lot of the stuff that was played at Stafford and used to command high prices are now out of vogue and very difficult to sell. Mid tempo, beat ballads and popcorn I'm talking about. 

That means that all the Dj's want to own the guaranteed floor fillers, and these are the records that are fetching the high prices.

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