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Current Bootleg Trading (split from Soul Pack thread)


niknak

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The swirly effect is a real giveaway and has been evident on US bootlegs for a long time. I suspect this is a modern by-product of the technology used as it looks like an ink-jet type label rather than a stuck on paper label, but not being an expert, this is a guess. Of more concern would be the source of the actual music - assuming the fakers have not used the master tapes, they have dubbed from originals and tweaked the sound digitally, again more guesswork.  Whatever the story, it looks like owners of high end rarities are in cahoots with a dodgy sound engineer, label forger and a pressing plant operator open to shady business. Darren Brown has sensibly published a list of these counterfeits and offered to validate any recent purchases bought as originals that may be forgeries. It is worrying that any collector or dealer would get embroiled in this conspiracy.

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4 minutes ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

The swirly effect is a real giveaway and has been evident on US bootlegs for a long time. I suspect this is a modern by-product of the technology used as it looks like an ink-jet type label rather than a stuck on paper label, but not being an expert, this is a guess. Of more concern would be the source of the actual music - assuming the fakers have not used the master tapes, they have dubbed from originals and tweaked the sound digitally, again more guesswork.  Whatever the story, it looks like owners of high end rarities are in cahoots with a dodgy sound engineer, label forger and a pressing plant operator open to shady business. Darren Brown has sensibly published a list of these counterfeits and offered to validate any recent purchases bought as originals that may be forgeries. It is worrying that any collector or dealer would get embroiled in this conspiracy.

Darren Brown has published a list?  I've done a complete dossier on them if you read nback through the thread.

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Just now, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

Cheers Pete, credit where it is due. It is most useful to have this info out in the open.

He hasn't done a "lookalike" of mine has he LOL anyway since when has Darren had the copies to refer to?  I know he might have the originals.

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16 minutes ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

 Darren Brown has sensibly published a list of these counterfeits and offered to validate any recent purchases bought as originals that may be forgeries. 

Don't recall any input from Darren on any of the recent debates regarding these counterfeits , it is Pete Smith that has kindly compiled the list including run-off details and supplied scans .

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1 minute ago, WoodButcher said:

Don't recall any input from Darren on any of the recent debates regarding these counterfeits , it is Pete Smith that has kindly compiled the list including run-off details and supplied scans .

No, but Darren warned us by email as the story was breaking. Credit to Pete for giving us the details identifying the fakes. 

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30 minutes ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

The swirly effect is a real giveaway and has been evident on US bootlegs for a long time. I suspect this is a modern by-product of the technology used as it looks like an ink-jet type label rather than a stuck on paper label, but not being an expert, this is a guess. Of more concern would be the source of the actual music - assuming the fakers have not used the master tapes, they have dubbed from originals and tweaked the sound digitally, again more guesswork.  Whatever the story, it looks like owners of high end rarities are in cahoots with a dodgy sound engineer, label forger and a pressing plant operator open to shady business. Darren Brown has sensibly published a list of these counterfeits and offered to validate any recent purchases bought as originals that may be forgeries. It is worrying that any collector or dealer would get embroiled in this conspiracy.

The thing is mate , Ink Jet printers don't print in circles , the print heads print horizontal that's what made me think it could actually be swirls on the vinyl ?

just my thoughts :thumbsup:

Cheers

Swifty

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18 minutes ago, SWIFTY said:

The thing is mate , Ink Jet printers don't print in circles , the print heads print horizontal that's what made me think it could actually be swirls on the vinyl ?

just my thoughts :thumbsup:

Cheers

Swifty

Yep, could well be. Or something in the pressing process. Or maybe in the label drying process perhaps. Really not too sure but do know that all swirly label records need to be treated with caution as they are coming off a modern press. Any vinyl record pressing plant operators out there who could shed some light on this one?

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3 hours ago, Pete S said:

Here are two photos of The Greater Experience record.

I've just scanned these now, on the same scanner, so they should be accurate.

The first one is the original.  The second one is the lookalike.

 

pic & bill-1.jpg

pic & bill.jpg

Great looking boot! I see the fake has black lettering rather than blue on the original. I'd buy one!

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18 hours ago, markw said:

All kicking off again on Facebook.  Here is the latest.............................

 

THE MAGNETICS - "I HAVE A GIRL" b/w "LOVE & DEVOTION". - Ra-Sel Recording Co. #7104
A moderator of Rare Soul Talk received information and that information has been relayed here.
It is posted in a genuine effort to prevent buyers paying full market rate for what they believe to be original records, when in fact they are purchasing a counterfeit or fake. The record concerned is high value and hence it is posted on this forum to make any innocent parties and potential buyers aware and for them to check what they are buying is real. It’s in the public interest. An original has sold for USD 5561 – a fake is worth maybe USD 80
The dj concerned will not speak about the matter on here. Please do not message them. They have been very kind to allow the details to become known. A genuine wish to help others. I have spoken with them on pm messages in Facebook and on the telephone.

Sean Chapman, a long established dj purchased the above record. The record was sold to Sean as an original at a fair price deemed to be the market rate at the time. About 3 months ago.
That record was sold as an Original. Sean paid and popped it on the shelf.
When news of the recent bootlegs surfaced a friend of Sean’s advised him to check his recent purchase.
A friend of Sean’s examined the record very recently and independently agreed that it was a bootleg counterfeit and a fake.
Sean contacted his seller. That seller was totally shocked. They have agreed to refund Sean in full without question.

The person who sold the record to Sean was asked on the telephone who sold him the 45.
<removed by site> 
The person stated that he was duped, drawn in by what is now known to be “fake stories and believable bullshit”. The record was one to keep quiet about and came from a “secret source”. It was not given to him, he paid a “fair amount” for it. It was sold as an original. He did not buy a soul pack. It was bought in late 2015.

So there you have a named example.

 

END OF COPIED STATEMENT...............

So Sean bought it "about 3 months ago",  which is not too far away from late 2015, and the guy who sold him, what is a trophy record, bought it in late 2015. Simple question, why would somebody buy the Magnetics at a "fair amount" and then sell it almost immediately. Something does not stack up here, people who buy records of this rarity/price don't sell them on at the drop of a hat. It would be nice to know who the middle man was. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't much to be explained by Ian about this fiasco, but is there any proof, as yet, he tried to deceive people by selling these lookalikes, other than your post above ?. 

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18 hours ago, markw said:

All kicking off again on Facebook.  Here is the latest.............................

 

THE MAGNETICS - "I HAVE A GIRL" b/w "LOVE & DEVOTION". - Ra-Sel Recording Co. #7104
A moderator of Rare Soul Talk received information and that information has been relayed here.
It is posted in a genuine effort to prevent buyers paying full market rate for what they believe to be original records, when in fact they are purchasing a counterfeit or fake. The record concerned is high value and hence it is posted on this forum to make any innocent parties and potential buyers aware and for them to check what they are buying is real. It’s in the public interest. An original has sold for USD 5561 – a fake is worth maybe USD 80
The dj concerned will not speak about the matter on here. Please do not message them. They have been very kind to allow the details to become known. A genuine wish to help others. I have spoken with them on pm messages in Facebook and on the telephone.

Sean Chapman, a long established dj purchased the above record. The record was sold to Sean as an original at a fair price deemed to be the market rate at the time. About 3 months ago.
That record was sold as an Original. Sean paid and popped it on the shelf.
When news of the recent bootlegs surfaced a friend of Sean’s advised him to check his recent purchase.
A friend of Sean’s examined the record very recently and independently agreed that it was a bootleg counterfeit and a fake.
Sean contacted his seller. That seller was totally shocked. They have agreed to refund Sean in full without question.

The person who sold the record to Sean was asked on the telephone who sold him the 45.
<removed by site> 
The person stated that he was duped, drawn in by what is now known to be “fake stories and believable bullshit”. The record was one to keep quiet about and came from a “secret source”. It was not given to him, he paid a “fair amount” for it. It was sold as an original. He did not buy a soul pack. It was bought in late 2015.

So there you have a named example.

 

END OF COPIED STATEMENT...............

And renowned record dealer Sean didn't notice the record wasn't an original.

17 hours ago, Kegsy said:

So Sean bought it "about 3 months ago",  which is not too far away from late 2015, and the guy who sold him, what is a trophy record, bought it in late 2015. Simple question, why would somebody buy the Magnetics at a "fair amount" and then sell it almost immediately. Something does not stack up here, people who buy records of this rarity/price don't sell them on at the drop of a hat. It would be nice to know who the middle man was. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there isn't much to be explained by Ian about this fiasco, but is there any proof, as yet, he tried to deceive people by selling these lookalikes, other than your post above ?. 

Paid for it, popped it on the shelf, didn't bother playing it or djing with it.  Waste of time buying it then eh?

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1 hour ago, Marc Forrest said:

...respect to sean chapman for coming up with this. wonder how many are too ashamed to admit. so far none of the six buyers of greater experience boot have dared to go public with their story.

The Greater Experience I posted up yesterday was sold in late November, and was also one of a small batch obtained from a member of the group and was an original.  It was bought from the countrys or worlds top dealer.  

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It would seem reasonable that person A bought it at a price that allowed him to sell it onto B and make a profit, whatever that was, people do that all the time.

The smart thing is price it just at the right point for person A to want to buy it.

they might have got it 500-1,000 less than they sold it for.

they call it record dealing and many people do it on different scales.

I have heard you can make a living doing this.

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38 minutes ago, markw said:

(1) Well the bootleg clearly did its job then, didn't it? Its makers and apologists must be proud of such an achievement - it was designed to deceive and that's just what it did. What an offensive and unnecessary remark against a decent person? What has Sean done to you to hold him in such contempt?

(2) What business is it of yours what anybody does with their property when they acquire it? Another unnecessary and contemptuous comment.

Such comments do little to enhance your own reputation Pete. Why the need to try to denigrate Sean in such a cheap manner?

Why the need for you to poke your nose in and reply to every comment I make on this group, go and stalk someone else who might have the slightest interest in your non-stop, petty jibes.  

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57 minutes ago, markw said:

Such comments do little to enhance your own reputation Pete. Why the need to try to denigrate Sean in such a cheap manner?

 

16 minutes ago, Pete S said:

Why the need for you to poke your nose in and reply to every comment I make on this group, go and stalk someone else who might have the slightest interest in your non-stop, petty jibes.  

I rest my case.

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5 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

It allegedly went through three hands before Sean saw it so there's a lot of grey surrounding its journey ... :(

Are you saying said record was bought and sold 3/4 four times in a matter of months ? If so there must have been a lot of chatter on the scene regarding whether it was the same copy or whether there was more than one etc. We all know its very hard to keep secrets on this scene about records, especially a piece like this. Besides that's not what it says in the quoted face book posting.

Edited by Kegsy
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3 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

Are you saying said record was bought and sold 3/4 four times in a matter of months ? If so there must have been a lot of chatter on the scene regarding whether it was the same copy or whether there was more than one etc. We all know its very hard to keep secrets on this scene about records, especially a piece like this. Besides that's not what it says in the quoted face book posting.

Just reporting what was said on FB after the statement was posted , unfortunately the thread has been removed by FB now so can't remember who made the claim.

Sod's law says it went before I had a chance to record it for future reference , unlike the other two that I saved.

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10 minutes ago, Ted Massey said:

it went from the original source, to a another then to a another then Sean, i know the name of the person Sean bought it of and he did tell who the other person was but i have forgot and you can draw your own conclusions as to who the original source is 

The question is did big money change hands EVERY time, especially from the original source,  given that at least 3 people have received these records for free by the looks of it.

Edited by Kegsy
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Guest chorleybloke
On 29/01/2016 at 20:50, Quinvy said:

Indeed the Don Gardner single looks and sounds really good. I bought one myself just to record for personal use, then sold it on.

It's quite realistic from a distance but next to each other it's easy to identify the real one.  What I don't really understand is why a lot of effort was obviously put into creating a lookalike.

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36 minutes ago, chorleybloke said:

It's quite realistic from a distance but next to each other it's easy to identify the real one.  What I don't really understand is why a lot of effort was obviously put into creating a lookalike.

Why indeed, and strange that these other records appear to have been done at the same plant.

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On 2/1/2016 at 10:16, markw said:

(1) Well the bootleg clearly did its job then, didn't it? Its makers and apologists must be proud of such an achievement - it was designed to deceive and that's just what it did. What an offensive and unnecessary remark against a decent person? What has Sean done to you to hold him in such contempt?

(2) What business is it of yours what anybody does with their property when they acquire it? Another unnecessary and contemptuous comment.

Such comments do little to enhance your own reputation Pete. Why the need to try to denigrate Sean in such a cheap manner?

So what you appear to say is, a of mate of yours knows someone who's next door neighbour's uncle twice removed said.......... therefore it must must be both accurate and true! In your position as presiding judge on the tittle tattle you find IL guilty of deception.

Oh dear IL has already said he had the records pressed up and there is no evidence he has sold them for the purpose of making a profit; but he has admitted gifting several to friends etc.

Sorry Mark your argument sucks as regards finger pointing at IL;  you may have a point about IL's mates if they have tried to palm em off as originals but even then its still he said/she said.  Pete is right - It's a cheap shot.

Personally I think its a nice gesture when mates go to the trouble of pressing up some rare records and gifting them to you, I wonder if your approach would differ should you be a mate who had received a nice gift like that. 

I have no vested interest as I'm not a beneficiary, seller or buyer. My observation suggests that there is a Anti IL lobby having a dig at an individual who is unable to defend himself (health and access reasons), I think some may call that bullying.  I wonder if that bullying is founded on the politics of envy, a talented DJ who broke more tunes than any other on the scene becomes vulnerable and out come the knives. The politics of envy is bloody ugly. 

Personally I feel we owe a debt of gratitude to many of those influential DJ's who made the scene what it is (ie from the Wheel, Torch, Casino Mecca etc)

 Stu

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1 hour ago, mellorful said:

So what you appear to say is, a of mate of yours knows someone who's next door neighbour's uncle twice removed said.......... therefore it must must be both accurate and true! In your position as presiding judge on the tittle tattle you find IL guilty of deception.

Oh dear IL has already said he had the records pressed up and there is no evidence he has sold them for the purpose of making a profit; but he has admitted gifting several to friends etc.

Sorry Mark your argument sucks as regards finger pointing at IL;  you may have a point about IL's mates if they have tried to palm em off as originals but even then its still he said/she said.  Pete is right - It's a cheap shot.

Personally I think its a nice gesture when mates go to the trouble of pressing up some rare records and gifting them to you, I wonder if your approach would differ should you be a mate who had received a nice gift like that. 

I have no vested interest as I'm not a beneficiary, seller or buyer. My observation suggests that there is a Anti IL lobby having a dig at an individual who is unable to defend himself (health and access reasons), I think some may call that bullying.  I wonder if that bullying is founded on the politics of envy, a talented DJ who broke more tunes than any other on the scene becomes vulnerable and out come the knives. The politics of envy is bloody ugly. 

Personally I feel we owe a debt of gratitude to many of those influential DJ's who made the scene what it is (ie from the Wheel, Torch, Casino Mecca etc)

 Stu

So they can do as they like then. 

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On 29/01/2016 at 15:14, RareMusicDirect said:

Hopefully someone who knows for sure will confirm, but I agree, likely on the vinyl, which points to a particular manufacturer, because don't see on other 45s...................

Just looked at a few vinyls and the following on a brief look seem to have these swirls in the labels;

Freestyle, Kentish, London

Timmion Records

Record Kicks

and imo the first '45 Box Set from Motown - which were pressed by www.gzvinyl.com

????

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 28/01/2016 at 20:54, Pete S said:

It was never released then?  How did he get the copies, did they just scrap the release?

It was pressed up by Stan Lewis at Bill's request to promote the band, "If you had a record, you got paid more and got more gigs" (Bill Bush). As far as I can gather although it's never been 100% clear and I don't think anyone could really recall, Stan did stock some in the shop he ran in Shreveport, and some sold, but it was primarily a promotional item (a business card, if you like) for Bill's combo, a very successful live group rather than recording artists. Velvet Touch is the a-side, a swamp-pop ballad that Bill was very proud of, it's a nice, well-crafted song to be fair but almost C&W. This would have been aimed at the white audience who attended tha cabarets, Riverboats and clubs in the area - or more specifically, the promoters / bookers of these venues.

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Well, I've one of these but never dreamed it was worth this much!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Northern-Soul-JOEY-DELORENZO-WAKE-UP-TO-THE-SUNSHINE-GIRL-MI-VAL-001-/111909896677?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=SBMxhIL8Nhw61f489vszK%252F0XNCs%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

EDIT: Sorry, I just realised this might be in the wrong section as it´s not a current boot, sorry mods please move if you feel.

 

Edited by Soul-Slider
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On 2/21/2016 at 21:42, scotchmartin said:

It was pressed up by Stan Lewis at Bill's request to promote the band, "If you had a record, you got paid more and got more gigs" (Bill Bush). As far as I can gather although it's never been 100% clear and I don't think anyone could really recall, Stan did stock some in the shop he ran in Shreveport, and some sold, but it was primarily a promotional item (a business card, if you like) for Bill's combo, a very successful live group rather than recording artists. Velvet Touch is the a-side, a swamp-pop ballad that Bill was very proud of, it's a nice, well-crafted song to be fair but almost C&W. This would have been aimed at the white audience who attended tha cabarets, Riverboats and clubs in the area - or more specifically, the promoters / bookers of these venues.

A lot of records were like that, a musical business card, so I wouldn't say it was never released Martin. Just done for local sales and to help the group.

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  • 3 months later...
17 hours ago, mike said:

update anyone?

 

Well, since you asked Mike, it's recently come to my attention that at least two of these are currently being auctioned on Ebay - as "continental releases".   

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sam-Williams-Love-Slipped-Through-My-Fingers-Lets-Talk-It-Over-Tower-/152117897373?hash=item236aeee89d:g:~QwAAOSwnFZXVT2q

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Magnetics-I-Have-a-Girl-Love-Devotion-Ra-Sel-/152117901204?hash=item236aeef794:g:sHUAAOSwuhhXVUAT

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