Frederick Hymes - Originals?

[Kjw 579]

The same seller who listed one the other week has now listed another

Could have found some more or they could have been re-pressed - a lot of the stuff he normally puts up are re-presses - Four Voices, San Francisco TKO's, Towanda Barnes, etc

[Jnixon 1,140]

I noticed that. Someone paid a fair bit for one. 

Nice tune but there has always been some contention with it.

To be fair to him he does seem to turn up bulk of some real things.

[Chalky 14,332]

A link might be helpful?

[Mick Boyle 352]

I bought Fredrick Hymes a few years back from a guy called Brooklyn Born 

he also offered me a Royal Esquires $120 the pair - I took the offer.

When they arrived they were both brand new and I was a little suspicious, shown them to mates

who OK them but one thought the Royal Esquires was thinner than his. 

No reason to suspect the FH wasn't genuine. 

[Jnixon 1,140]

vashx22 is the sellers name. I dont have a link anymore. 

 

 

 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob 417]

Brooklyn Born and the current seller are one and the same person. He is currently advertising copies as "first press". This 45 has been the source of debate on here for a long time. It seems that the general consensus is that the first press has a darker orange label and the ones freely available have a lighter orange colour. I think Butch also confirmed the first copies he found were the darker orange.

Interestingly when Garry Cape was involved in Grapevine we had a conversation about Fredrick Hymes as they tracked him down and wanted to release it but he wasn't interested. From my now fading memory he also denied that the Tony Hymes and Soul People version on Azbill was him. Clearly if you listen to both its him. I think he worked as a hunting guide or something like that at the time.

Dave Welding will probably know the full story.

[davidwapples 277]

he is also selling that toby bullard so glad which is just a pressing of the lyrics so glad on gnp

[Dobber 591]

i thought the f hymes was only original if it was orange? the yellow/brown labels are a repress (also i think there is an issue as to whether it has or hasnt got  the address on the label?)

i think it was actually f hymes that had them pressed up too?

[Kjw 579]

3 hours ago, chalky said:

A link might be helpful?

Here's the link Chalky - started at $25 and somebody put a bid in of $599 which has been outbid

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-NORTHERN-SOUL-45-1ST-PRESS-FREDERICK-HYMES-III-FAB-VEGAS-4526-L-K-/121941324665?hash=item1c6444f379:g:7jsAAOSwyjBW6B3R

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Mick Boyle said:

I bought Fredrick Hymes a few years back from a guy called Brooklyn Born 

he also offered me a Royal Esquires $120 the pair - I took the offer.

When they arrived they were both brand new and I was a little suspicious, shown them to mates

who OK them but one thought the Royal Esquires was thinner than his. 

No reason to suspect the FH wasn't genuine. 

As Vashx22 and Brooklyn Born are both from Las Vegas and have the same stock, so I presumed they were the same seller.   Brooklyn Born was supposed to have bought the full remaining stock of the Prix label from family owner.   The Royal Esquires were originals.  

   "I Believe In You" Ruby Lee on Poptone that they sell are originals.  A lot of there stock are represses, but mixed in are originals.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Guest

[Benji 953]

Isn't Brooklyn Born Rich Rosen?

[Mick Boyle 352]

Dont think so, I went into Rich Rosens shop in Vagas around the same time as buying the records. He knew full well what we were looking for and Im sure he would of offered us the above mentioned records if he had them. Must add that there was stacks of northern in the shop but all full UK price. Long way to go to pay full price.  

[Chalky 14,332]

Brooklyn Born is Joe Giattino although he and Richie are/were very good friends.

[Dave Pinch 1,821]

11 hours ago, Benji said:

Isn't Brooklyn Born Rich Rosen?

i always thought it was

[Chalky 14,332]

Joe or Ritchie, whichever one it is, maybe when they got the stock of Prix and FH's from the estate they got the plates as well?

[Ernie Andrews 603]

This topic was sent to me by one of my Dundee friends. Im not going to name names but I can assure you ( even though I don't have the email anymore- not used that Hotmail account in 10 years) that a certain seller had them pressed up and got quite nasty with me when I exposed him selling them as originals. To quote him exactly " Wise up Steve This is business" He got nasty because I asked him certain questions using reverse questioning technique pertaining to the record that he had just offered me (FH) . I had the original in my hand at the time I was communicating with him as I had bought it off Sam at Fleetwood still with all the cover up paper glue in the deadwax.Said seller also named particular dealers he had provided to hence the glut at The Ritz allnighter in Manchester. Everytime I have mailed this person he refuses to disccuss anything with me and I promise I did not say one nasty word to him! As the price of FH has started rising It would not surprise me that more have been pressed up. One interesting question that may be asked to John Manship is why from one price guide to another that FH went from 1k to £200 (Havnt seen other records that came out of the woodwork go down in valuation/price guide in the same percentage) as to my recollection I have never had an answer to or I have but I just cant remember.

[Natalie89 59]

I asked the seller the other week if he would except a buy it now price... he wanted $750 for it, unless its the same record and the other buyer fell through

[Joesoul1958 71]

Hi Soulies, here is a photo of my copy, I'm pretty sure mine is an original. The one sold on EBay, I must say looks alright, just not quite sure of the stamp mark just below where it states side 1, the same seller has an identical one on there again, with the same mark, hope this helps in someway, regards, Joe.

Edited April 2, 2016 by joesoul1958
Adding other information

[Polyvelts 1,192]

How hard to get Is the tony Hymes version ? 

[Chalky 14,332]

1 minute ago, polyvelts said:

How hard to get Is the tony Hymes version ? 

very

[Polyvelts 1,192]

1 minute ago, chalky said:

very

Ha ha

was blown away when I heard it on bob a's (rip) show !!

[Ernie Andrews 603]

I had a Tony Hymes - Must admit didn't like it as a ballad!

 

[Ivor Jones 648]

5 hours ago, Ernie Andrews said:

This topic was sent to me by one of my Dundee friends. Im not going to name names but I can assure you ( even though I don't have the email anymore- not used that Hotmail account in 10 years) that a certain seller had them pressed up and got quite nasty with me when I exposed him selling them as originals. To quote him exactly " Wise up Steve This is business" He got nasty because I asked him certain questions using reverse questioning technique pertaining to the record that he had just offered me (FH) . I had the original in my hand at the time I was communicating with him as I had bought it off Sam at Fleetwood still with all the cover up paper glue in the deadwax.Said seller also named particular dealers he had provided to hence the glut at The Ritz allnighter in Manchester. Everytime I have mailed this person he refuses to disccuss anything with me and I promise I did not say one nasty word to him! As the price of FH has started rising It would not surprise me that more have been pressed up. One interesting question that may be asked to John Manship is why from one price guide to another that FH went from 1k to £200 (Havnt seen other records that came out of the woodwork go down in valuation/price guide in the same percentage) as to my recollection I have never had an answer to or I have but I just cant remember.

Hello. Like many others, I have read with great interest about the apparent re-press of this great record. I know it has been covered before in depth on this forum, but, from memory,there was no real conclusion.I was left with the impression that it was like a caring Tory government,everyones heard of it but no ones ever seen one. I've heard of the different colour labels, but,even that,in my opinion,can be put down to either printing faults with the label where you get colour fluctuation,or, problems with pictures appearing on the net,[where scans or photos don't show an accurate representation of the label colour. I have no way of knowing if if this is what has caused confusion or not,but, it seems totally possible to me. I also remember thicker vinyl on originals being mentioned, but, again, no one has seemed able to prove it.  So, my question is, are there any other differences which you can remember that differentiates the bona fide "original" from one of the copies which turned up in bulk a few years back from the dealer in question ? It would be great if we could get to the bottom of this once and for all. The pictures posted up by joesoul1958 look identical to every copy I've ever seen. Or, are they all represses ? I genuinely don't know. Regarding John Manships valuation reduction of FH, surely, if hundreds of copies of a rare 45 turn up then its perceived market value will drop won't it ? As you say, the price is rising again anyway. The thing is, if all these copies that turned up turn out to be repro's then the handful of bona fide originals will more than hold their value anyway.

All the best, Ivor   

[Mal C 2,676]

7 hours ago, joesoul1958 said:

Hi Soulies, here is a photo of my copy, I'm pretty sure mine is an original. The one sold on EBay, I must say looks alright, just not quite sure of the stamp mark just below where it states side 1, the same seller has an identical one on there again, with the same mark, hope this helps in someway, regards, Joe.

Exactly like mine, same label, and run out. Bought 2004 from the States, I'd seen a copy Arthur Fenn had, which he played on a radio show in Australia. Quite sure that was not long after it was being played by Butch at the 100 club.. actually I'm sure I heard it late 2003 in the Uk...

[davidwapples 277]

The slow version by tonny hymes is on youtube if you want to hear it. There are a couple of uploads so quality may vary

[Steve G 7,125]

Richie Rosen & Co didn't get all the Prix stock but they got most of it from the widow of the label owner. Hence the regular supply. I have a Joe King 45 that has never turned up / been put out anywhere etc….played it at Lifeline.

Re Frederick Hymes, we've been here so many times before haven't we?….Knowing that re-presses of certain things have come via the "Las Vegas Connection", and having seen two "different" copies of Frederick Hymes side by side at Cleethorpes some years ago, and having discussed with John A and Arthur, I am afraid I lean towards it having been re-pressed at some point. Who by, or whether these were both done at or near the same time I don't know but for sure two presses. 

[Swifty 3,348]

1 hour ago, Steve G said:

Richie Rosen & Co didn't get all the Prix stock but they got most of it from the widow of the label owner. Hence the regular supply. I have a Joe King 45 that has never turned up / been put out anywhere etc….played it at Lifeline.

Re Frederick Hymes, we've been here so many times before haven't we?….Knowing that re-presses of certain things have come via the "Las Vegas Connection", and having seen two "different" copies of Frederick Hymes side by side at Cleethorpes some years ago, and having discussed with John A and Arthur, I am afraid I lean towards it having been re-pressed at some point. Who by, or whether these were both done at or near the same time I don't know but for sure two presses. 

Steve , I'm sure Rob Thomas told me he'd got some Prix stock from there also ?

 

[Frankie Crocker 1,708]

On 2 April 2016 at 09:21, Ernie Andrews said:

This topic was sent to me by one of my Dundee friends. Im not going to name names but I can assure you ( even though I don't have the email anymore- not used that Hotmail account in 10 years) that a certain seller had them pressed up and got quite nasty with me when I exposed him selling them as originals. To quote him exactly " Wise up Steve This is business" He got nasty because I asked him certain questions using reverse questioning technique pertaining to the record that he had just offered me (FH) . I had the original in my hand at the time I was communicating with him as I had bought it off Sam at Fleetwood still with all the cover up paper glue in the deadwax.Said seller also named particular dealers he had provided to hence the glut at The Ritz allnighter in Manchester. Everytime I have mailed this person he refuses to disccuss anything with me and I promise I did not say one nasty word to him! As the price of FH has started rising It would not surprise me that more have been pressed up. One interesting question that may be asked to John Manship is why from one price guide to another that FH went from 1k to £200 (Havnt seen other records that came out of the woodwork go down in valuation/price guide in the same percentage) as to my recollection I have never had an answer to or I have but I just cant remember.

Richie Rosen had quantity of Reverend George Morton and that has gone down in value. Royal Esquires has also dropped in value.

[Frankie Crocker 1,708]

Richie Rosen had a load of Frederick Hymes ten years ago. He also had a bunch of carvers at big prices. Other Vegas dealers now seem to have quantity of specific records as though they were from a single source. Vegas dealers seem to be rolling in Ruby Lee (hence my post a week ago), Four Voices on gold label, Toby Bullard, Frederick Hymes etc and the list goes on. Just too many second presses for peace of mind. Do these old-timers have access to a pressing-plant as it looks like they do QED? Remember the Johnny Watson scandal...

[Jnixon 1,140]

On 02/04/2016 at 09:55, chalky said:

Joe or Ritchie, whichever one it is, maybe when they got the stock of Prix and FH's from the estate they got the plates as well?

the guy in question on the header of this thread is called Vince ive woken up today and for some reason recalled. he has had prix bits in the past. seems he is just a guy who buys from these other guys.

[Dave Pinch 1,821]

I think all the Frederick hyme's are OK ..but there was never a 70s orig... issued very late 90s at the earliest

[Ernie Andrews 603]

On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 22:13, Ivor Jones said:

Hello. Like many others, I have read with great interest about the apparent re-press of this great record. I know it has been covered before in depth on this forum, but, from memory,there was no real conclusion.I was left with the impression that it was like a caring Tory government,everyones heard of it but no ones ever seen one. I've heard of the different colour labels, but,even that,in my opinion,can be put down to either printing faults with the label where you get colour fluctuation,or, problems with pictures appearing on the net,[where scans or photos don't show an accurate representation of the label colour. I have no way of knowing if if this is what has caused confusion or not,but, it seems totally possible to me. I also remember thicker vinyl on originals being mentioned, but, again, no one has seemed able to prove it.  So, my question is, are there any other differences which you can remember that differentiates the bona fide "original" from one of the copies which turned up in bulk a few years back from the dealer in question ? It would be great if we could get to the bottom of this once and for all. The pictures posted up by joesoul1958 look identical to every copy I've ever seen. Or, are they all represses ? I genuinely don't know. Regarding John Manships valuation reduction of FH, surely, if hundreds of copies of a rare 45 turn up then its perceived market value will drop won't it ? As you say, the price is rising again anyway. The thing is, if all these copies that turned up turn out to be repro's then the handful of bona fide originals will more than hold their value anyway.

All the best, Ivor   

Ivor look below at Steve G post! AS for percentage values dropping Look at JMs price guides. Some of the records that came out of the woodwork did not drop in JMs price guide as much as FH did!

[northern295 17]

On 4/2/2016 at 00:43, Mal C said:

Exactly like mine, same label, and run out. Bought 2004 from the States, I'd seen a copy Arthur Fenn had, which he played on a radio show in Australia. Quite sure that was not long after it was being played by Butch at the 100 club.. actually I'm sure I heard it late 2003 in the Uk...

I bought the exactly same looking one including run-out from very reputable name on the scene at Prestatyn several years ago, looks more Orange than the original post but could be down to scanner ?

[Reg Scott 139]

10 hours ago, dave pinch said:

I think all the Frederick hyme's are OK ..but there was never a 70s orig... issued very late 90s at the earliest

That is my understanding also Dave, so it boils down to first press issues against any 'other' releases.. We know the history of the Vegas connection so you pays your money and take the chance or perhaps not..

[cover-up 351]

I presumed since this thread was started on 1st April it was an April's Fool.

 

The subject of FH3 is like a stuck record, just the same half-baked speculation and rumours endlessly going round and round. Different coloured labels, different thicknesses, conspiracy theories that it's an unreleased track pressed from mastertapes in the 90s, conjecture that since all the copies came from a dealer who's known to bootleg hence it's a bootleg etc etc. 

 

Did Butch not reply to one of the countless threads? I, like many, wish the truth would finally be documented and preserved once and for all.

 

One thing which is above debate is: what an absolutely magnificent track!

 

(cue: "I've never liked it, always thought the vocal was weak and the backing was a sub-Tighten Up rip-off..."  )

[cover-up 351]

And, err, just to add to the mystery - has anyone seen the rubber stamp (is it a rubber stamp?) under the SIDE ONE text on the latest copies?

 

Would seem a strange move, to add extra text if you were trying to replicate and original (or whatever it's deemed to be) - or an elaborate double bluff. Will we ever know the truth?

 

EDIT: http://www.popsike.com/php/detaildatar.php?itemnr=370244166857

yes, they have turned up with the rubber stamp before...

Edited April 10, 2016 by cover-up

[Kjw 579]

30 minutes ago, cover-up said:

I presumed since this thread was started on 1st April it was an April's Fool.

 

The subject of FH3 is like a stuck record, just the same half-baked speculation and rumours endlessly going round and round. Different coloured labels, different thicknesses, conspiracy theories that it's an unreleased track pressed from mastertapes in the 90s, conjecture that since all the copies came from a dealer who's known to bootleg hence it's a bootleg etc etc. 

 

Did Butch not reply to one of the countless threads? I, like many, wish the truth would finally be documented and preserved once and for all.

 

One thing which is above debate is: what an absolutely magnificent track!

 

(cue: "I've never liked it, always thought the vocal was weak and the backing was a sub-Tighten Up rip-off..."  )

No, it wasn't an April Fool. The seller is known for selling re-presses. He had stock of them a few years back and is now selling them again. I doubt that he would have held some of his stock back from a few years ago if they were selling at the time. Either he's found some more or they've been re-pressed recently.

[Chalky 14,332]

Previous topic with Butch's comments on how he found it....

 

[Jazzman Gerald 32]

I asked the same question of the seller a few years back, he replied and told me in no uncertain terms that I was a mug for not realising it was a recent pressing. It was quite sarcastic/arrogant in tone. He probably has the original stampers - whether made by himself or not - and he just presses them up as he pleases. 

[Joesoul1958 71]

There is one for sale on DISCOGS at the moment, although to me the label seems to be a really bright orange colour, if it's a genuine copy then I think €460 euros that's around £360 is a really good price, and in MINT condition too, looks like a boot to me, what are your thoughts, here's a photo.

[Polyvelts 1,192]

Digital Color recording and reproduction either by scanner or camera is incredibly variable, it's really tough to make a call on subtle differences in hue. Even if the same pic is saved as cymk rather than rgb the differences are considerable.

the saturation of orange on this looks pumped up, it could easily be an original (a more yellow washed out shade of orange) but his scanner settings are set at a higher intensity level than reality !

its a minefield !!

[Ted Massey 1,918]

I have to ask with so much controversy about this record why would you spend your hard earned on it 

[Dave Pinch 1,821]

8 hours ago, Ted Massey said:

I have to ask with so much controversy about this record why would you spend your hard earned on it 

some pay that amount for obvious boots ted... that one above looks ok to me.... none of the fredricks have swirls on the labels as newly booted  45 seems to have..such a great record

theres been so many threads about this record guys must have some idea of the facts... unless they been on the moon the last 10 years

[Ted Massey 1,918]

great it may be but still dodgy 

[Dave Thorley 1,553]

12 hours ago, Ted Massey said:

I have to ask with so much controversy about this record why would you spend your hard earned on it 

This maybe the case we will never know fully, great record all the same. Somewhere back in the dim distant past I thought this was a later pressed 45 from a tape that had come from Frederick or Otis Harris. But the scene has demonstrated on more than one occassion the the desire to play 45's that were not always contemporary with their recording has been no block to being played or to value, think Milton Wright, Doni Burdick ..................

Edited May 10, 2016 by Dave Thorley

[Ted Massey 1,918]

3 hours ago, Dave Thorley said:

This maybe the case we will never know fully, great record all the same. Somewhere back in the dim distant past I thought this was a later pressed 45 from a tape that had come from Frederick or Otis Harris. But the scene has demonstrated on more than one occassion the the desire to play 45's that were not always contemporary with their recording has been no block to being played or to value, think Milton Wright, Doni Burdick ..................

True Dave i can think of another as well got any left  lol

[Mr Outsider 53]

The seller is known to be a prolific counterfeiter, and the fact that he has suddenly started flogging them again after a number of years just reinforces what I've always believed - these are very obviously bootlegs. 

[CheltSoulNights 32]

I don't think he is a bootlegger

More like a misleader

He has put out several tunes that obviously came from tapes or even possibly made to measure?

And they seem to be consistently  good on the ears?

Everyone liked them at the time and bought heavily the cheaper ones

The FH3 appears to have been slipped across slowly onto the scene and technically its an original on 45 but the item was never challenged and sells for £250 all day long.

The truth is. if you want one you have to pay the money. The seller isn't budging now as he knows he doesn't need to.

And yes 3 different colour Labels with a big time gap on the 3rd doesnt bode well.

Buyer beware

But the price hasn't wavered in many years so what is the problem?

[funkyfeet 15]

IMO most of the comments on this topic are a assumptions with no fact, I took quantity of most of the PRIX 45's back in th early 2000's and was offered a small quantity of Frederick Hymes, if he had more he would have offered me more that what he did at the time, can't think any reason why he wouldn't have as I asked for more at the time a couple of months ago he offered me 3 copies which he had found in his stock, it's simple to lose records when you're a dealer or major collector do it myself all the time, again if he had re-pressed this why would he only offer me 3 copies when he could have offered me 10, 20 or more.  As whether it's a original or not I've still to see any proof that it ain't, everyone who has doubts has no proof. With regards the PRIX 45's if you would have seen the sleeves that they were in you wouldn't have question them one bit as they were falling apart around the record they were that brittle, no one would have been able to have created that and why would you.

Edited May 16, 2016 by funkyfeet

[greeneggz 19]

If you deal with the guy regularly why don't you drop him a quick message asking for the story about how he came about stock of the Hymes 45. Please report back any response or lack of it. Thanks!