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Mark Bicknell

Charles Diamond And The Inspirations - Breakthrough - Reply From Charles Diamond - Priceless

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Just soughting the boxes out for the Winsford Allnighter on Saturday and i'm so tempted to include Charles Diamond And The Inspirations - No One Else Can Take Your Place - Break Through B81582T - Can anyone confirm what the story is on this record? i picked it up several years ago for about £20.00 knowing of course it was not an authentic first generation copy as that is dog rare with maybe two or three reasonable condition originals out there? a record that has remained ultra rare and hard to find.

Am i correct in thinking that the copy i have is a legit re issue dated 1977? put out by Joey Jefferson also am i correct that this is a slightly different mix? to the original and am i also correct that even the second issue goes for a few quid, bit of a dilema really as because of the lack of originals this fantastic record never hardly gets played and it's up there with the best of them, being from the 'when i DJ' i play authentic records camp and i'm not gonna start now or am i moving the goal posts here i just feel are there any circumstances where such tunes on a second issue should get the odd spin being that some attitudes have changed these days towards what format the tunes come via, i have played it on the show several times and stated it's the second press, i would be interested to know if there are any current DJ's who have an original of this record, i suspect Tim Brown, Kenny Burrell may have it but i'm not totally sure, is it best left to them to play it if the mood is right or do we give the 1977 copy a go?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Edited by Mark Bicknell

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Mick Smith's got it, he has Searling's old copy, it's a one sided disc with an orange label, Breakthrough is in a straight line across the top, I was looking at it about a month back. The reissue has a much fuller production and lasts a good 25 seconds longer. I persoanlly prefer the second version. I found Charles Diamond himself about 2 years back, his missus wrote to me for some reason, can't quite remember now. I put them in touch with Kev Roberts :P

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Mick Smith's got it, he has Searling's old copy, it's a one sided disc with an orange label, Breakthrough is in a straight line across the top, I was looking at it about a month back. The reissue has a much fuller production and lasts a good 25 seconds longer. I persoanlly prefer the second version. I found Charles Diamond himself about 2 years back, his missus wrote to me for some reason, can't quite remember now. I put them in touch with Kev Roberts :P

Cheers Pete, of course Mick Smith has it but i bet there are not many more out there, i knew it was an Orange original seen a scan of it, so the one i have is a legit re issue as i suspected then?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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I cant see a problem if its a ligit second issue :P

I mean plenty of people play the 'gold' four voices out, if every one i've herd play is the green one it aint as rare as its rated :P

No differnt to playing a unissued thing then offering vinyl carvers jobbie and passing it around to your friends or what not, especially as the insperations is a land mark rarity, could do with more exposure, herd of a few people playing the primers of 'acetates' so whats good for the goose.............. :lol:

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I cant see a problem if its a ligit second issue :P

I mean plenty of people play the 'gold' four voices out, if every one i've herd play is the green one it aint as rare as its rated :P

No differnt to playing a unissued thing then offering vinyl carvers jobbie and passing it around to your friends or what not, especially as the insperations is a land mark rarity, could do with more exposure, herd of a few people playing the primers of 'acetates' so whats good for the goose.............. :lol:

Good points there Baz, as Pete said the second issue sounds much fuller in sound than the original, love the tune to bits me and i may consider the odd spin out and about but not if we are gonna get shot down in flames....lol

Mark Bicknell.

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Mick Smith's got it, he has Searling's old copy, it's a one sided disc with an orange label, Breakthrough is in a straight line across the top, I was looking at it about a month back. The reissue has a much fuller production and lasts a good 25 seconds longer. I persoanlly prefer the second version. I found Charles Diamond himself about 2 years back, his missus wrote to me for some reason, can't quite remember now. I put them in touch with Kev Roberts :lol:

I always thought (persummed) it was instrumental on one side and vocal on the other, so whats the really rare one the instrumental or the vocal :P then where did either or come from after that?

Please dont tell me i've dreamed of a vocal side to this as the instrumental dont do nothing for me but the vocal kicks arse :P

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I always thought (persummed) it was instrumental on one side and vocal on the other, so whats the really rare one the instrumental or the vocal :P then where did either or come from after that?

Please dont tell me i've dreamed of a vocal side to this as the instrumental dont do nothing for me but the vocal kicks arse :lol:

Like I said, the original is one sided. The instrumental came along when the reissue came out

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your-northern-soul.gif

We are they now!

Background song playing on this page is

"No One Else Can Take Your Place"

Recorded by: Charles Diamond & The Inspirations

mark you could try his home page hope this helps

ricky.

sock it to em shorty.

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I have Jim wensioras old copy paid £200 for it those were the days, it has a delta mark in the run out 69491 mine must have belonged to Ian Gilibrand at one time as that is scratched in grooves as well

So that's Ted's, Mick Smith who has the other couple of copies then?, looks like Charles Diamond only has the second issue? and if Ted has it i might just put mine back on the shelf and enjoy it at home but not at the gigs, would be against the grain for me like i said, it was just a question and deep down i know the answer, thanks.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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I cant see a problem if its a ligit second issue :P

I mean plenty of people play the 'gold' four voices out, if every one i've herd play is the green one it aint as rare as its rated :P

No differnt to playing a unissued thing then offering vinyl carvers jobbie and passing it around to your friends or what not, especially as the insperations is a land mark rarity, could do with more exposure, herd of a few people playing the primers of 'acetates' so whats good for the goose.............. :lol:

a few? who? only heard of one dj playing a cut

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Guest hammy

I think Mark Wilson's meant to have a copy as well. He posts on here from time to time.

Hammy

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So that's Ted's, Mick Smith who has the other couple of copies then?, looks like Charles Diamond only has the second issue? and if Ted has it i might just put mine back on the shelf and enjoy it at home but not at the gigs, would be against the grain for me like i said, it was just a question and deep down i know the answer, thanks.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Mark, understand where you are coming from with this but the second issue is still mighty fine and worth a spin for those who may never hear the original as it is in so few hands. Actually quite like the instrumental and was puzzled on first hearing as I always believed,as is the case, that the original was one sided. It was then explained to me that a second issue had been made by Joey Jefferson. Was this specifically in response to the buzz created at the time by the original?

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[/ last copy of this to turn up was kev barrett and his mate from texas they got it from bill osment s shop in kansas city ( i think tim brown bought it ) ian cunnliffe gave them the address in 86 or somewhere around then , idont think they cut him on the deal either;;;]

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Where did it all go wrong?

In 1976 / 77 when the reissue first came about, every Northern DJ (including myself) in every club in the UK was playing this version / copy.

How is it possible that... almost 30 years later... a DJ would risk getting 'shot down in flames' for playing such a FANTASTIC record!

If anyone out there is so anally uptight that they'd complain or object they must be truly messed up.

Jeez Mark.... damn the torpedoes and play the darn thing!

:thumbsup:

Sean

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Where did it all go wrong?

In 1976 / 77 when the reissue first came about, every Northern DJ (including myself) in every club in the UK was playing this version / copy.

How is it possible that... almost 30 years later... a DJ would risk getting 'shot down in flames' for playing such a FANTASTIC record!

If anyone out there is so anally uptight that they'd complain or object they must be truly messed up.

Jeez Mark.... damn the torpedoes and play the darn thing!

:thumbsup:

Sean

Yes, and espescially when the second issue has a completely different (and better) mix!

I think it's way better than the first issue.

Would be sad if the only place you can hear it is at home.

How much is this second issue worth?

Can't remember seeing one for sale so it must be pretty rare as well?

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Then there`s the version i once owned,sold to mad Mikc Summers,for nothing as he never paid me,same music diffrant lyrics,asked MMS for it bakc,he said Tommo`,nikced his(my) records,thank`s Tommo looks like we`ll never see it again,and i cant prove it exsisted,played it out more than a couple of times.

The title.let me lick your wound,the Insperations,if anybody knows owt,please let the people know i`m not bullshiting.

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Where did it all go wrong?

In 1976 / 77 when the reissue first came about, every Northern DJ (including myself) in every club in the UK was playing this version / copy.

How is it possible that... almost 30 years later... a DJ would risk getting 'shot down in flames' for playing such a FANTASTIC record!

If anyone out there is so anally uptight that they'd complain or object they must be truly messed up.

Jeez Mark.... damn the torpedoes and play the darn thing!

:thumbsup:

Sean

Good points Sean, i guess some of us set ourselves up way back, old school and all that, must collect and play originals, still we all know in the cold light of day that this is not always the case, i too remember it being played way back possibly this version? sometimes this purist attitude in playing original authentic records can be a negative aspect of the DJ thing, so load your torpedoes as i might bang it in The Winsford spot, a top tune.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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Good points Sean, i guess some of us set ourselves up way back, old school and all that, must collect and play originals, still we all know in the cold light of day that this is not always the case, i too remember it being played way back possibly this version? sometimes this purist attitude in playing original authentic records can be a negative aspect of the DJ thing, so load your torpedoes as i might bang it in The Winsford spot, a top tune.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Best we don't turn this thread into yet another 'Originals versus Boots' thing again, i was simply wishing to confirm my thoughts that this 45 is a legit re issue rather than an unofficial bootleg.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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Best we don't turn this thread into yet another 'Originals versus Boots' thing again, i was simply wishing to confirm my thoughts that this 45 is a legit re issue rather than an unofficial bootleg.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

I was chatting to Brian Wakelin recently about what would be played at his mecca reunion night .I brought up the subject of this record and suggested that the re-recorded version could be considered an original in a roundabout sort of way .

Brian played it last saturday resulting in many people enjoying a brilliant and rarely played out record :thumbsup:

Steve Mc

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I was chatting to Brian Wakelin recently about what would be played at his mecca reunion night .I brought up the subject of this record and suggested that the re-recorded version could be considered an original in a roundabout sort of way .

Brian played it last saturday resulting in many people enjoying a brilliant and rarely played out record :thumbsup:

Steve Mc

I guess that's my whole point Steve, in instances like this perhaps the original only rule can be wavered, was it a total re record? i thought it was just a different mix, as Pete S stated also a longer version.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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I guess that's my whole point Steve, in instances like this perhaps the original only rule can be wavered, was it a total re record? i thought it was just a different mix, as Pete S stated also a longer version.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

For fukc`s sake,just play it man :thumbsup: its real.

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I guess that's my whole point Steve, in instances like this perhaps the original only rule can be wavered, was it a total re record? i thought it was just a different mix, as Pete S stated also a longer version.

Thanks for your comments.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Seem to recall that Neil Rushton related a story where the original master was lost ,so a new version was recorded for the pink copies . Anyone confirm ?

Steve Mc

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Hi Mark,

I tend to agree with the point indicated by 'Fyldecoast'.

As I understand it, because the master tapes were lost, Joey Jefferson got the group back into the studio to re-record the track. Plus, as Pete Smith stated, the 1977 version of the song is different.

On this basis I think (for us purists!), playing the record out CAN be justified on the basis that this version of the track is actually AN original.

Think of it as being a similar situation to Minnie Jones doing a different version of Shadow Of A Memory to that of 21st Century. Except that in this case, of course, the first and second artists are the same people.

And .... I fully intend to play it at Whitley Bay on 14th October!!

Peter

PS - one point of caution though, out of respect I wouldn't play it at a venue where I thought one of the other DJs had an orange Breakthrough copy with them to play.

Soooo ... (you've guessed it) - 'Don't Say That I've Been Unfair, ... '!!!

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Hi Mark,

I tend to agree with the point indicated by 'Fyldecoast'.

As I understand it, because the master tapes were lost, Joey Jefferson got the group back into the studio to re-record the track. Plus, as Pete Smith stated, the 1977 version of the song is different.

On this basis I think (for us purists!), playing the record out CAN be justified on the basis that this version of the track is actually AN original.

Think of it as being a similar situation to Minnie Jones doing a different version of Shadow Of A Memory to that of 21st Century. Except that in this case, of course, the first and second artists are the same people.

And .... I fully intend to play it at Whitley Bay on 14th October!!

Peter

PS - one point of caution though, out of respect I wouldn't play it at a venue where I thought one of the other DJs had an orange Breakthrough copy with them to play.

Soooo ... (you've guessed it) - 'Don't Say That I've Been Unfair, ... '!!!

:shades::P:P

The 77 cut is superb & as discussed is an original in its own right........What a shame if people were denied hearing this due to there only being 3 orange copies,which (if my memory serves me right) isnt as 'polished' as the second recording

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Hi Mark,

I tend to agree with the point indicated by 'Fyldecoast'.

As I understand it, because the master tapes were lost, Joey Jefferson got the group back into the studio to re-record the track. Plus, as Pete Smith stated, the 1977 version of the song is different.

On this basis I think (for us purists!), playing the record out CAN be justified on the basis that this version of the track is actually AN original.

Think of it as being a similar situation to Minnie Jones doing a different version of Shadow Of A Memory to that of 21st Century. Except that in this case, of course, the first and second artists are the same people.

And .... I fully intend to play it at Whitley Bay on 14th October!!

Peter

PS - one point of caution though, out of respect I wouldn't play it at a venue where I thought one of the other DJs had an orange Breakthrough copy with them to play.

Soooo ... (you've guessed it) - 'Don't Say That I've Been Unfair, ... '!!!

Ok. however, the original was cut around 1966 was it not? if it is a re record then they nailed it really well, some 11 years on if the re record was done in 1977, i'm gonna try and email Mr Diamond and see if he can give the full story, see what happens?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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is that the original one, cause my goldmine lp version dont sound like that

Just taken it from a 20+ year old tape from Ted Massey to PC to mp3 to site.......

Ted, it looks like Jim W sold you a goldmine single :P

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Hey Mark

I am one of your punters, used to go to the Witchwood in AUL. I don't care if you play the '77 version. as its an original in its own right. Remade or remixed whatever! its a differant version of a know track. It happens on the Nothern scene, just play it. Its a top sound. Everyone know you are a originals only d.j anyway so I for one wouldn't be critial it you gave this a well needed spin.

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Heres the 60's version

Wow! forgot Ted that's a bit good mate, still the other mix holds it own....what you reckon musically a draw? both versions are the dogs bollocks i think...lol and different so perhaps not a bootleg against original debate more of two versions of a fantastic song.

Mark Bicknell.

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Wow! forgot Ted that's a bit good mate, still the other mix holds it own....what you reckon musically a draw? both versions are the dogs bollocks i think...lol and different so perhaps not a bootleg against original debate more of two versions of a fantastic song.

Mark Bicknell.

Hi Mark

I have the other version on tape somewhere and i seem to remember really liking it, sound file any one

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Good points Sean, i guess some of us set ourselves up way back, old school and all that, must collect and play originals, still we all know in the cold light of day that this is not always the case, i too remember it being played way back possibly this version? sometimes this purist attitude in playing original authentic records can be a negative aspect of the DJ thing, so load your torpedoes as i might bang it in The Winsford spot, a top tune.

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Thanks Mark, I like your style and fully understand and appreciate why you asked the original question.

Personally, I've seen more than a few re-issues on the decks over the years, but I honestly believe that there needs to be a dotted line (at least) between the purist aspirations of the collector and the entertainment role of the DJ, who's main purpose should be to enlighten, delight and involve the crowd with good quality music.

It would be pitiful if such a great record were excluded from your playlist (particularly when you have the seasoned 'good taste' to want to play it) on the basis that it's a 're-recording' or such.

At a gig quite Recently I played the 21st century re-recording of Lou Pride's "I'm Coming Home In The Morning" to critical and quite positive acclaim. Hey, if it's good enough for Lou pride who am I to ignore it?

But I don't give much of a damn about the 'knockers' particularly when the dancefloor were clearly having a great time and enjoying the track... because, I've always believed that as a Soul Music DJ... giving people a good time is what I'm paid to do.

And sometimes (if not always :P ) that's what I'm about!

Cheers Mark... and give it to 'em loud at the weekend!

:P

Sean

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Thanks Mark, I like your style and fully understand and appreciate why you asked the original question.

Personally, I've seen more than a few re-issues on the decks over the years, but I honestly believe that there needs to be a dotted line (at least) between the purist aspirations of the collector and the entertainment role of the DJ, who's main purpose should be to enlighten, delight and involve the crowd with good quality music.

It would be pitiful if such a great record were excluded from your playlist (particularly when you have the seasoned 'good taste' to want to play it) on the basis that it's a 're-recording' or such.

At a gig quite Recently I played the 21st century re-recording of Lou Pride's "I'm Coming Home In The Morning" to critical and quite positive acclaim. Hey, if it's good enough for Lou pride who am I to ignore it?

But I don't give much of a damn about the 'knockers' particularly when the dancefloor were clearly having a great time and enjoying the track... because, I've always believed that as a Soul Music DJ... giving people a good time is what I'm paid to do.

And sometimes (if not always :P ) that's what I'm about!

Cheers Mark... and give it to 'em loud at the weekend!

:P

Sean

Thanks Sean for your well thought out and very constructive comments here, like i said i'm not trying to move the goal posts here just trying to i guess justify the inclusion of a different and what seems to be a legit re - record, different mix or whatever, many unissued recordings have found there way onto the scene in recent years be it directly from a master tape via the likes of Ady Croasdell and Kent Records for example or from Dubs taken from CD's etc. with or without the consent or knowledge of the source of the material, the 'Chris Clark' track taken form the Universal Anthology springs to mind and was out there pretty quickly when the CD was issued......why? it's a top track is the answer, yes you could simply play it directly from the CD rather than a disc dub but that's the choice i guess of the person and the Northern ethic or playing something that resembles a record, stuff like Al Williams - 'Try Them' and The Servicemen - 'I'll Stop Loving You', Eddie Holman - 'Hold Me In Your Arms' put out by Grapevine are just three examples here of outstanding unissued material that simply need playing off any format simply again because this music needs playing, it gives the scene a different dimension, more music to go at and enjoy and is a seperate issue to the original versus bootleg debate i think.

I have been DJ'ing on this scene for about twenty six years from about 1980/81 and after being pulled up one night at Hinckley way back for playing Jimmy Mack - 'My World Is On Fire' on Soul Galore from a well known DJ who was due on just after me and who is still around today who basically said "Why are you playing that as I have it on Palmer"????? For me the penny dropped and from that day to this i have never played anything less than a record on it's first generation USA Original at a live venue, out of respect to the point raised by the DJ, being true to myself as a Rare Soul DJ, basically if i wanted to continue DJ'ing then it had to be done correctly from my own personal perspective and i choose to do it the most authentic way i know how, i guess the point here is that in the main most DJ's if they are totally honest would rather play original 45's it's the nature of the game.Yes it's about entertainment, filling the floor and doing the best you can, but in the Northern Soul DJ world it's a lot to do with reputaion, depth and quality of collection, time served and yes original records i'm sorry but i don't care what anyone says this fact plays a major part and i'm sorry but saying it don't matter is simply a poor excuse and a way to justify cutting corners....bugger i did'nt want to turn this into what i've turned it into...lol I'm not talking about being anti bootleg here as this conversation and debate will continue as long as the scene lasts, i guess it's a personal issue.

And this is why i basically asked the question on the Charles Diamond 45? is it authentic? it would seem yes, is it legit? it would seem yes, so do i play it out? maybe yes, or do i wait until 'Ted' sells me his first generation 60's Orange BreakThrough copy which will be when hell freezes over....lol or do i simply stick with the purist attitude and ethic and play something else?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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Ok. however, the original was cut around 1966 was it not? if it is a re record then they nailed it really well, some 11 years on if the re record was done in 1977, i'm gonna try and email Mr Diamond and see if he can give the full story, see what happens?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Hi Mark,

Judging by the delta matrix Ted supplied (69491), it would date it to approximately November-December 1967.

And yes, I agree - what a stonking record! May play mine at Kent on the 14th and London on the 20th!

Gene

Edited by Gene-R

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Hi Mark,

Judging by the delta matrix Ted supplied (69491), it would date it to approximately November-December 1967.

And yes, I agree - what a stonking record! May play mine at Kent on the 14th and London on the 20th!

Gene

Will you have time Gene before you come to Solid Hit ?

At the risk of being shot down in flames (by some) yes Mark I think it's a case of moving the goalposts & I take the point that you're only asking opinions. Yes there's only a couple of originals (?) but then thats the thing with Northern.(You've been doing this a lot longer than me I don't need to tell you) Maybe Butch is playing a one off, do we turn around & say well it's a great record but you can only hear it if you attend an event that Butch is at. I want to hear it in Gravesend so somebody tapes his set & releases a boot. A bit different to your original question perhaps but you get my drift. To be honest if you didn't know the answer you wouldn't have asked the question.

IMO a vinyl carver pressing of a totally unreleased items is fair game. It's all about opinions isn't it ? :P

Edited by Dave G

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Good points there Baz, as Pete said the second issue sounds much fuller in sound than the original, love the tune to bits me and i may consider the odd spin out and about but not if we are gonna get shot down in flames....lol

Mark Bicknell.

=============================================================

at the end of the day mark, if its an official release & a different mix then in reality its a totally different record..you go ahead & play it mate

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=============================================================

at the end of the day mark, if its an official release & a different mix then in reality its a totally different record..you go ahead & play it mate

It would seem that most of us agree on this that it's a different mix from the original 66/67 'BreakThrough' issue and a bloody good one at that, not heard back from Mr Diamond with his comments, might not even get a reply....lol i think the comments raised about a disc dub from a tape of an exclusive record or one off is a very different issue? and does this go on? lol.

I'm simply just trying to play by the rules if there are any?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

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I'm simply just trying to play by the rules if there are any?

Regards - Mark Bicknell.

Mark,

The "rules" for Rare Soul have never changed. Just the people who are involved in it. You know the answer to your question otherwise you wouldn't be sort of "seeking approval", you'd just do it. "Thin edge of the wedge" comes to mind....but then you know that, that's why you asked the question in the first place eh? :P

Sorry to buck the general trend of the thread but there you go. :P

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

www.soulclub.org

www.deancourtney.com

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