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Possibly THE Rarest Soul 45?


Pete S

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Google search says motown was the biggest customer of the nashville plant.

250 demo copies of dilyiid..were cut, and only 2 survived when Frank got a full time job with motown if he gave up his singing aspirations.

As I said earlier, masters must have survived to officially get the UK issue released. 

I'm sure more info will follow!

Ed

 

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For 250, or for that matter any demos to be made, would there quality control depth not have had to have passed it first?

Can't see any vinyl being produced if not?

So why did Berry just not let them get sent out to the radio stations and see the reaction?

Seems drastic to destroy something that obviously cost a few bob to make without giving it any chance at all. 

Ed

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35 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Google search says motown was the biggest customer of the nashville plant.

250 demo copies of dilyiid..were cut, and only 2 survived when Frank got a full time job with motown if he gave up his singing aspirations.

As I said earlier, masters must have survived to officially get the UK issue released. 

I'm sure more info will follow!

Ed

 

From Andy Rix's article here on Soul Source

" Despite the fact that the ‘Eddie Foster’ bootleg had sold thousands of copies, UK Tamla Motown decided to issue the record.

The original tapes for both sides of Soul 35019 were requested to be sent to London from America. However, when the tapes were received, they were stereo masters and not the original mono masters. UK Tamla Motown label manager, Gordon Frewin, instantly spotted the technical differences and corrected them at Abbey Road Studios, with the help of his engineer Chris Blair, and the benefit of a copy of the ‘Eddie Foster’ 45 taken to the studio by Motown collector John Lester. TMG 1170 was thus taken from stereo masters but folded into mono for its eventual release on 9th November 1979.  "

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1 hour ago, tomangoes said:

For 250, or for that matter any demos to be made, would there quality control depth not have had to have passed it first?

Can't see any vinyl being produced if not?

So why did Berry just not let them get sent out to the radio stations and see the reaction?

Seems drastic to destroy something that obviously cost a few bob to make without giving it any chance at all. 

Ed

The way I understand the situation, Berry wanted to keep Frank Wilson as a producer and songwriter, and wanted him to move to Detroit, to work with Motown's major artists.  He had planned to give Frank an ultimatum that he must choose between being a producer and moving to Detroit, or remaining in LA. and pursuing a singing career.  It stands to reason that he would hold off on sending the DJ copies to DJs, so that there would be no interest in the record to possibly influence Wilson to turn down the producer job offer.

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10 hours ago, chalky said:

But wasn't the original recorded in LA and pressed in Detroit at ARP?  Did the original have a RCA number?

Motown must have sent the master tape to Detroit.  They could easily have originally planned to have the record pressed at RCA Indianapolis.  The demo was made for quality control to listen to it, presumably to make their decision to schedule it for release, or not.

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1 hour ago, Pete S said:

Stop the press, John Manship says it's a counterfeit, all the other experts are wrong, I'd best smash it into a million pieces hadn't I?

To be honest,it's easy for John to say something like that,because,unless those run out details match,which it looks very much like they dont( one is ARP and the other Nash Mat )then the chances of those discs coming from the same stamper are pretty slim...they wouldn't of mastered it twice,would they?

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Might sound daft, but carbon dating might be able to be done the paper and ink to prove its authenticity. JM making a comment without actually having seen and touched the record might have been a bit premature. Let’s not forget it wasnt that long ago people on here were sceptical about the Darrell Banks on uk London issue..

i have no opinion  on this save for it is either the biggest discovery or the biggest hoax, only time will,tell. I really hope it is real though as it would be another great chapter in the Frank Wilson legacy.

Edited by jim g
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Guest MBarrett
25 minutes ago, jim g said:

carbon dating might be able to be done the paper and ink

 

What about a simple chemical analysis of the ink?

Solvents, resins and pigments will surely all have changed over the last 50+ years.

I'm not a chemist but would have thought it was a doddle to check that out.

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Motown could have used RCA merely for the Test Press.     ARP would have put the stamp in the master only after it was received at ARP.  Many of the ARP pressed Motown singles have either the Nashville Matrix or the RCA stamp but a good number have both.

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33 minutes ago, MGM 1251 said:

Unless the Demo and TP's run out details are the same,then they couldn't of come from the same master stamper...

The tracks were recorded several months apart, so when were the 'stampers' electroformed? , probably not at the same time? A record can be pressed with in a matter days of an other "original" release, but have different 'cut numbers' on either or both sides due to high demand i.e. a stamper(s) gets worn out. You could have a test pressing with unique matrix numbers, followed by a demo with different ones, the same or different to the 'issues' leaving the pressing plant a few hours later.

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15 minutes ago, simon t said:

The tracks were recorded several months apart, so when were the 'stampers' electroformed? , probably not at the same time? A record can be pressed with in a matter days of an other "original" release, but have different 'cut numbers' on either or both sides due to high demand i.e. a stamper(s) gets worn out. You could have a test pressing with unique matrix numbers, followed by a demo with different ones, the same or different to the 'issues' leaving the pressing plant a few hours later.

Yep,I see your point,but whatever was initially "detailed" in the run out of the TP,should also be on the demo(the next stage?)and anything else added to it...i.e. ARP stamp..,,

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11 minutes ago, MGM 1251 said:

Yep,I see your point,but whatever was initially "detailed" in the run out of the TP,should also be on the demo(the next stage?)and anything else added to it...i.e. ARP stamp..,,

Test Pressings were done to determine the quality of the 'product' leaving the pressing plant, though obviously several 100's/1000's pressings  later in the shops.. Demo's were made to demonstrate the recording to the potential buyers, almost entirely over the sound waves from   radio stations. The production & playing  of a demo didn't pay any royalties the writer/producer - if you wanted to get it out there, you got 'paid' by having it promoted for "free". Once your released record got played by the radio stations you got a few cents/pennies from it's playing. I'll leave Payola & pirate radio for another tread.

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7 hours ago, MBarrett said:

What about a simple chemical analysis of the ink?

Solvents, resins and pigments will surely all have changed over the last 50+ years.

I'm not a chemist but would have thought it was a doddle to check that out.

Good points, I am no chemist, there has to be a wa to authenticate this!

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12 hours ago, Pete S said:

Stop the press, John Manship says it's a counterfeit, all the other experts are wrong, I'd best smash it into a million pieces hadn't I?

If it IS a counterfeit, it's not exactly wise to spend a lot of time and trouble producing one which will come under extremely close scrutiny by people with a hell of a lot of expertise on the matter.

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I don't know if John Manship reads these posts or not.

I don't know if he only had the same info as we have seen.

I do know that he sell a lot of records that are rare in one kind or another, and that would include test pressings.

So if it's true that he is stating it's a fake, it has to hold some merit, and I guess he would state why, which seems to be the missing link to this issue.

 

Ed

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On 19-11-2017 at 04:57, RobbK said:

Yes, I'm here.  I never saw nor heard of this test pressing.  It was pressed at RCA Indianapolis, and mastered in Nashville.  Looks legit enough, with that 1964-66 Quality Control stamp, and the mid '60s style test pressing record, with depressed centre area.

Isn't it the other way around: mastered at RCA, pressed at Southern Plastics (assuming it's genuine of course)?

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Great find Pete and a terrific story unfolding. Not an expert on this, but the Quality Control stamps on the sleeve, Test Press and demos appear identical. The hand written date and the OK appear to be penned by the same hand. The sleeve of the Test Press looks to be the ‘Birth Sleeve’ so the record could be in pristine condition. A date of 1965 surely places this recording in Detroit rather than Los Angeles - maybe someone can clarify. Now speculating that the master tape was sent to the Nashville Matrix pressing plant, probably in a batch with others from that day’s studio output. The mastertapes were processed one by one, and the Test Presses stacked up as the quality control workers did their job. Later on, the demos were cut (at this plant or another) and the Test Presses disposed of as per usual. One Frank Wilson Test Press was mixed up with other discards and tapes etc, swiftly removed from the premises and recently turned up outside Detroit. All the white demos bar two and any remaining Test Presses were destroyed in line with Berry Gordy’s wishes so this recent find is of considerable importance. The matrix details suggest the Test Press is genuine but more research needs to be done on the sequence of numbers to clarify the timing ie are there any other Test Presses in the hoard that turned up in the store? There are enough experts out there to prove the Test Press is genuine - I for one believe and hope it is.

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Loving the fact that one of the rarest record's is our Frank Wilson, ok it's been flogged to death as we all know, but there is no other song that comes near it to the pulling power over the years it's had to get people into Northern Soul, just my opinion mind. :thumbsup:  :hatsoff2:

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