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Pete S

Possibly THE Rarest Soul 45?

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On 18/11/2017 at 19:39, Pete S said:

Right sit down folks I think I may be able to show you the rarest record in the world...well you know what I mean...we know there are two originals of Frank Wilson - well here is the one original test pressing - 

A side  -  SK4M - 4916 1 A   Nashville Matrix 5   ZQL 163317
B side  -  SK4M - 4915 1 A   Nashville Matrix 5   ZAQQ 147105

PB171666.JPG

PB171669.JPG

 

PB171702.JPG

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PB171670.JPG

Possibly the rarest soul 45 ? Depends what your criterias are,is a test pressing or acetate,a bonafide record ? I personally would say NO. Therefore,I would discount it as such,yet would acknowledge it's extreeme rarity and of course -desireability to a collector.An awesome collectors piece nonetheless.As an aside,I don't think this was Motown's "best" Northern Soul outing...and I always thought it was (musically) vastly overrated and overhyped (due to it's rarity).

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12 minutes ago, UPTITE U250A said:

Possibly the rarest soul 45 ? Depends what your criterias are,is a test pressing or acetate,a bonafide record ? I personally would say NO. Therefore,I would discount it as such,yet would acknowledge it's extreeme rarity and of course -desireability to a collector.An awesome collectors piece nonetheless.As an aside,I don't think this was Motown's "best" Northern Soul outing...and I always thought it was (musically) vastly overrated and overhyped (due to it's rarity).

There are many records that are assumed one off copies which would put them taer than Frank Wilson.  There are some Motown records rarer or just as rare.  All hype that helps the big sell.

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7 minutes ago, chalky said:

There are many records that are assumed one off copies which would put them taer than Frank Wilson.  There are some Motown records rarer or just as rare.  All hype that helps the big sell.

Fair comment and I agree.

My main point was though,I do not accept test pressings or acetates as being bonafide records. And Pete did lump this test press as one...hence my reply.

Not a Tamla/Motown expert myself,I was Northern,but I do recall IL pulling out from one of his racks showing me most proudly his copy of The Andantes.I was about to ask him to lend it to me...but thought better than to ask....now I wish I had done !!!

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Not sure that anyone "has yet" been able to counterfeit dead wax stamping' of the like "bell sound" , "nashville matrix" , "ARP" , "Frankford & Wayne" , "raised X's" etc.
Could all be in "deep guano" if it were possible ?
Maybe in the future the BBC will have a program called "Fake or Fortune - 45 Records".

T.
 

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1 hour ago, UPTITE U250A said:

Fair comment and I agree.

My main point was though,I do not accept test pressings or acetates as being bonafide records. And Pete did lump this test press as one...hence my reply.

Not a Tamla/Motown expert myself,I was Northern,but I do recall IL pulling out from one of his racks showing me most proudly his copy of The Andantes.I was about to ask him to lend it to me...but thought better than to ask....now I wish I had done !!!

Test pressing is the same as the demo/issue though, it has gone through the process at the very least

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43 minutes ago, garethx said:

If it was pressed at Southern Plastics there might be a S.

For Southern Plastics it's actually (client) number 5 (instead of S), which is indeed present in the dead wax (see first post).

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10 minutes ago, mshoals said:

For Southern Plastics it's actually (client) number 5 (instead of S), which is indeed present in the dead wax (see first post).

Good info mshoals. Which makes this a Motown recording mastered at RCA and intended to be pressed at Southern Plastics in Nashville.

It would be good to know what's in the deadwax of the two labelled copies which are known to exist.

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Just doing some reading about the mastering process used by Motown at the time. 

This from former Motown engineer Bob Ohlsson via the Steve Hoffman music forum:

"I was one of the four mastering engineers at Motown in Detroit between 1965 and 1972. Everything I saw during that period, besides occasional production masters we cut ourselves, were production masters cut by Randy Kling at RCA in Chicago to match the level and eq. of the acetates we sent him. RCA even had our equalizers and filters. We QCd test pressings from RCA and the 3 indi plants."

On the practice of using RCA for pressing DJ copies but other, cheaper factories for stock copies:

"Even so, the vast majority of Motown's records were not pressed by RCA. I know Berry Gordy had a financial interest in American Record Pressing and Southern Plastics and he may well have had one in Monarch too."

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1 hour ago, garethx said:

Good info mshoals. Which makes this a Motown recording mastered at RCA and intended to be pressed at Southern Plastics in Nashville.

It would be good to know what's in the deadwax of the two labelled copies which are known to exist.

So apparently the two known, labelled copies were pressed at ARP. This one at Southern Plastics. Might not be outside the bounds of possibility there are styrene test pressings done at Monarch as well. Get digging everyone.

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I'm guessing that the master tape was first sent from the Jobete Music L.A. office to Detroit (to be evaluated by Quality Control - as was the general procedure); and that the mastering for the future press run was subsequently done at RCA Chicago (where most of the mastering was done for RCA Midwest (Indianapolis plant) was done).   Pressing decisions were almost always made in Detroit, NOT at the Jobete Music offices in Los Angeles or New York.

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this has appeared on JM facebook, so i guess this is his rare record previously mention that will be auctioned soon (i know it is slightly off topic, just posted it for reference)

23755731_10215098445514210_2828533870956

Edited by jim g

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On 19/11/2017 at 15:00, chalky said:

Well documented Motown used various plants.  Nashville matrix didn't press discs, they mastered the plates and left their mark.  RCA pressed this one by the looks of it.

just trying to add to MGM1251 questions and Chalky's answers. So...Forgive me if i'm behind the thread somewhat or the bit below is meaningless to the debate.

I have a  scribbled note (and given time will find the source of the note to give due credit) that;

Matrix of Nashville (the company) made amongst other things, stampers for local pressing plants. And Nashville Matrix (in Italics) was the wording in their metal stamper. So it’s likely Nashville Record Productions Inc (Mastering) used those/that stamper(s). And we know Motown used NRP, as did Paula, etc.

 I could be stating 'the bleedin' obvious' to many on here. Equally, I hope it hasn't unwittingly sent you down another rat hole, or

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1 hour ago, Kenb said:

just trying to add to MGM1251 questions and Chalky's answers. So...Forgive me if i'm behind the thread somewhat or the bit below is meaningless to the debate.

I have a  scribbled note (and given time will find the source of the note to give due credit) that;

Matrix of Nashville (the company) made amongst other things, stampers for local pressing plants. And Nashville Matrix (in Italics) was the wording in their metal stamper. So it’s likely Nashville Record Productions Inc (Mastering) used those/that stamper(s). And we know Motown used NRP, as did Paula, etc.

 I could be stating 'the bleedin' obvious' to many on here. Equally, I hope it hasn't unwittingly sent you down another rat hole, or

Nasville matrix did the metal work, RCA the mastering and Southern Plastics it seems the pressing.  The Nashville Matrix client code 5 is for Southern Plastics.  Motown used ARP. Its been said by an engineer Gordy had a financial stake in them. 

Edited by chalky

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5 hours ago, garethx said:

Good info mshoals. Which makes this a Motown recording mastered at RCA and intended to be pressed at Southern Plastics in Nashville.

It would be good to know what's in the deadwax of the two labelled copies which are known to exist.

There is the possibility that Southern Plastics whilst having the order simply passed it on to RCA to master and press. 

If I don’t hear before I’ll be seeing Tim at the weekend and will ask for demo deadwax info. 

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2 hours ago, jim g said:

this has appeared on JM facebook, so i guess this is his rare record previously mention that will be auctioned soon (i know it is slightly off topic, just posted it for reference)

23755731_10215098445514210_2828533870956

Didn't Tim auction one not so long ago?....within the last six months?

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All the Motown mastering in 1965 was done by RCA's mastering studio in Chicago (pre 1965 they used Bell Sound as well). The lacquers would be sent back to Motown and then passed on to the various pressing plants. The fact that this has the Nashville Matrix and a "5" suggests pretty conclusively it was pressed at Southern Plastics (5 was the SP client code at Nashville and is on other companies' 45s pressed there, so it wasn't Motown's exclusive code). Matrix of Nashville was by no means the only metal plating factory which Motown used. Monarch for example did their own metalwork as the styrene injection process presumably required different mothers to those needed for vinyl pressing. 

Chris King confirmed on facebook that the two existing known vinyl demos were both done at ARP and are stamped as such. ARP may have used a different plating company so the absence of a Nashville Matrix stamp on those might not have been unusual. Equally they might have also been plated at Matrix of Nashville too, so it wouldn't be unusual for both an ARP stamp and Nashville Matrix stamp.

Motown records pressed by RCA factories generally have the RCA master lacquer code on the label as well as the Motown DM (Duplicate Master) code and the catalogue number. Obviously this disc has no label artwork but the deadwax suggests it was pressed at Southern Plastics. 

 

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25 minutes ago, MGM 1251 said:

Didn't Tim auction one not so long ago?....within the last six months?

There was one on that auction house sale, was advertised on here. Louvain Demps also sold a copy. 

Edited by chalky

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The DM code DM ZQL 163317 tells us it was produced by Davis & Gordon and the engineering supervised by Lawrence Horn. Perhaps it is his handwriting on the copies of this disc we have seen so far. He died in prison earlier this year while serving a life sentence for ordering a triple murder, so I guess we'll never know.

Edited by garethx

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16 minutes ago, garethx said:

All the Motown mastering in 1965 was done by RCA's mastering studio in Chicago (pre 1965 they used Bell Sound as well). The lacquers would be sent back to Motown and then passed on to the various pressing plants. The fact that this has the Nashville Matrix and a "5" suggests pretty conclusively it was pressed at Southern Plastics (5 was the SP client code at Nashville and is on other companies' 45s pressed there, so it wasn't Motown's exclusive code). Matrix of Nashville was by no means the only metal plating factory which Motown used. Monarch for example did their own metalwork as the styrene injection process presumably required different mothers to those needed for vinyl pressing. 

Chris King confirmed on facebook that the two existing known vinyl demos were both done at ARP and are stamped as such. ARP may have used a different plating company so the absence of a Nashville Matrix stamp on those might not have been unusual. Equally they might have also been plated at Matrix of Nashville too, so it wouldn't be unusual for both an ARP stamp and Nashville Matrix stamp.

Motown records pressed by RCA factories generally have the RCA master lacquer code on the label as well as the Motown DM (Duplicate Master) code and the catalogue number. Obviously this disc has no label artwork but the deadwax suggests it was pressed at Southern Plastics. 

 

When did Chris confirm this because yesterday along with me asked Tim for run out details and he was going to check the disc.  Still waiting as far as I am aware.  Will be seeing Tim later this week. 

Don’t you think there should be some identification in tne TP as to where it was pressed, SO in the deadwax if it was Southern. The deadwax info that we know of only suggests the order at Nashville Matrix was through Southern, not that they pressed it. You are probably right that they did but there is no hard evidence yet. 

Edited by chalky

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sometime the SO code doesn't appear on the label( when there is one) or in the deadwax. that's when the 5 and Nashville Matrix appear instead.

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11 minutes ago, chalky said:

When did Chris confirm this because yesterday along with me asked Tim for run out details and he was going to check the disc.  Still waiting as far as I am aware.  Will be seeing Tim later this week. 

Earlier today on FB Karl ...

ck.PNG.66a49cc34c45b00f4ddf5651f19d3520.PNG

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16 minutes ago, Kenb said:

sometime the SO code doesn't appear on the label( when there is one) or in the deadwax. that's when the 5 and Nashville Matrix appear instead.

I was reading on a forum somewhere earlier SO appears sometimes on the label but always in the runout. Conflicting accounts out there. 

The Nashville Matrix and the 5 is for the metal work not the pressing as far as I understand. The 5 is to identify the client who NM was working for. 10 would be for Motown direct 

Edited by chalky

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7 minutes ago, garethx said:

That relates to their custom clients Chalky: small labels essentially. 

Yes I know, there is a whole list of client numbers on the net. 

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45cat.com now has the images from this listing as well as Tim Brown's copy plus the former Kenny Burrell copy autographed by Frank Wilson.

It now looks obvious to me that Tim's copy says in red handwriting "American Pressing" while this one has "S/P" (Southern Plastics) in the same handwriting in the same red ink. Both copies signed on the same day, 23 November 1965. 

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13 hours ago, chalky said:

I was reading on a forum somewhere earlier SO appears sometimes on the label but always in the runout. Conflicting accounts out there. 

The Nashville Matrix and the 5 is for the metal work not the pressing as far as I understand. The 5 is to identify the client who NM was working for. 10 would be for Motown direct 

yes . the client codes you are referring to are i believe those of NRP inc not Nashville Matrix. The Nashville Matrix "5" is NRP's number for Southern (who eventually changed their name to United and were in the same street as Nashville Matrix). I'm not sure this gets us any further...but

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Well i see JM has listed what was originally touted as the  "the rarest motown 45", the Cute Teens. It is rare but not as rare as Frank Wilson.

There are three on Popsike ALL sold this year + his listing = 4 (at least). Have some been found somewhere? 

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=cute+teens&x=0&y=0

So, with this news FW still rarer.

Any news on a FW test press being sold?

Edited by jim g

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54 minutes ago, jim g said:

Well i see JM has listed what was originally touted as the  "the rarest motown 45", the Cute Teens. It is rare but not as rare as Frank Wilson.

There are three on Popsike ALL sold this year + his listing = 4 (at least). Have some been found somewhere? 

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=cute+teens&x=0&y=0

So, with this news FW still rarer.

Any news on a FW test press being sold?

Whilst talking about rare Motown associated records,what about The charters-Trouble Lover -melody

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1 hour ago, jim g said:

Well i see JM has listed what was originally touted as the  "the rarest motown 45", the Cute Teens. It is rare but not as rare as Frank Wilson.

There are three on Popsike ALL sold this year + his listing = 4 (at least). Have some been found somewhere? 

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php?searchtext=cute+teens&x=0&y=0

So, with this news FW still rarer.

Any news on a FW test press being sold?

No it's going to be auctioned in January

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5 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Whilst talking about rare Motown associated records,what about The charters-Trouble Lover -melody

The Charters' record was released on Motown subsidiary, Mel-o-dy Records.  So, it was more than Motown-related.  It was a Motown record.  Whereas, The Cute-Teens was a Berry Gordy producton leased to Aladdin, and, as far as I know, it was NOT produced at Motown (I guess because it was pre-Motown (recorded during the time Ray-Ber Music Co. operated (or, perhaps, a little before that firm started up?).  The Charters were a Toledo, Ohio group, who had written their own songs, and, if I remember correctly, had recorded their songs in Toledo, and just paid Motown to press up one batch of demo records for them.  Maybe it was 25, 50 or 100 of them.  Only 2 white DJ copies are known to exist today.  So, it is dead rare.  No pressed records of The Charters' Mel-o-dy 104 were sitting among The Motown Record File's Mel-o-dy Records or The Jobete Music Record File during the 1970s to 1980, when I had access to them - unlike The Frank Wilson Soul 35019, both of which were there (and those were NOT the two White DJ copies Ron Murphy found at ARP.  So, we know there were at least 4 copies of The Frank Wilson seen, but only 2 of The Charters'.  So, The Charters' was technically rarer.

 

The Berry Gordy-related Fidelitones' Aladdin release, pressed up at the same time as The Cute-Teens, was not nearly as rare as The Cute-Teens'.  I never saw The Cute-Teens' release in circulation, only photos and scans.  But I saw a few copies of The Fidelitones (and it had a store stock press run.  I never heard of a Cute Teens store stocker seen.  Freddie Gorman was a member of The Fidelitones.  There were rumours that Eddie and Brian Holland were members of that group as well.  But, in later interviews, they said they were not in that group.  I've seen a list of that group's members, and they were all well-known Detroit '50s and early '60s singers, with members that had, at times been with well-known Detroit groups.

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3 hours ago, RobbK said:

The Charters' record was released on Motown subsidiary, Mel-o-dy Records.  So, it was more than Motown-related.  It was a Motown record.  Whereas, The Cute-Teens was a Berry Gordy producton leased to Aladdin, and, as far as I know, it was NOT produced at Motown (I guess because it was pre-Motown (recorded during the time Ray-Ber Music Co. operated (or, perhaps, a little before that firm started up?).  The Charters were a Toledo, Ohio group, who had written their own songs, and, if I remember correctly, had recorded their songs in Toledo, and just paid Motown to press up one batch of demo records for them.  Maybe it was 25, 50 or 100 of them.  Only 2 white DJ copies are known to exist today.  So, it is dead rare.  No pressed records of The Charters' Mel-o-dy 104 were sitting among The Motown Record File's Mel-o-dy Records or The Jobete Music Record File during the 1970s to 1980, when I had access to them - unlike The Frank Wilson Soul 35019, both of which were there (and those were NOT the two White DJ copies Ron Murphy found at ARP.  So, we know there were at least 4 copies of The Frank Wilson seen, but only 2 of The Charters'.  So, The Charters' was technically rarer.

 

The Berry Gordy-related Fidelitones' Aladdin release, pressed up at the same time as The Cute-Teens, was not nearly as rare as The Cute-Teens'.  I never saw The Cute-Teens' release in circulation, only photos and scans.  But I saw a few copies of The Fidelitones (and it had a store stock press run.  I never heard of a Cute Teens store stocker seen.  Freddie Gorman was a member of The Fidelitones.  There were rumours that Eddie and Brian Holland were members of that group as well.  But, in later interviews, they said they were not in that group.  I've seen a list of that group's members, and they were all well-known Detroit '50s and early '60s singers, with members that had, at times been with well-known Detroit groups.

Thanks for the response Rob,I’ve known of the Charters recording for many years and knew that it was extremely rare,but when people talk about rare Motown records,it seldomly gets mentioned. 

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This is very intersting but it's become equally as confusing as hell Here's what I've got so far - not sure how close I am so please correct.

1. Pete's record (TP) -  tapes sent to Motown Detroit. Then to RCA (Chicago or more probably  Nashville). Lacquers made at RCA then sent to  Matrix of Nashville for the metalwork. Then sent (more or less next door) to Southern Plastic for pressing.  Doubtful if SP had it own label making facilities 

2. Previous known demo copies. Tapes sent to Motown Detroit. Then to RCA (Chicago) for  lacquering then to ARP.   Not sure if ARP did its own metalwork (im guessing it did) but it did have its own label making facilities. ARP TPs had a distinct label but I suppose they could have used standard demo labels instead for whatever reason. Hence the demos being found in a box of text pressings.

The obvious question - which no one seems to have asked yet - is how does it sound? The idea of test pressing (as far as I know) was to check for obvous sound faults or skips etc. Sound quality was always presumed to  be less than the actual release would be due to the low number run. (although on standard hi-fi equipment it would probably be dfficult ot har any differences). Also to check the correct verion was used. Since this demo was ok'd I' suppose it was the correct tape mix.

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23 hours ago, maslar said:

This is very intersting but it's become equally as confusing as hell Here's what I've got so far - not sure how close I am so please correct.

1. Pete's record (TP) -  tapes sent to Motown Detroit. Then to RCA (Chicago or more probably  Nashville). Lacquers made at RCA then sent to  Matrix of Nashville for the metalwork. Then sent (more or less next door) to Southern Plastic for pressing.  Doubtful if SP had it own label making facilities 

2. Previous known demo copies. Tapes sent to Motown Detroit. Then to RCA (Chicago) for  lacquering then to ARP.   Not sure if ARP did its own metalwork (im guessing it did) but it did have its own label making facilities. ARP TPs had a distinct label but I suppose they could have used standard demo labels instead for whatever reason. Hence the demos being found in a box of text pressings.

The obvious question - which no one seems to have asked yet - is how does it sound? The idea of test pressing (as far as I know) was to check for obvous sound faults or skips etc. Sound quality was always presumed to  be less than the actual release would be due to the low number run. (although on standard hi-fi equipment it would probably be dfficult ot har any differences). Also to check the correct verion was used. Since this demo was ok'd I' suppose it was the correct tape mix.

Southern Plastics did have their own label-copy/artwork department. Their typesetting on Motown releases is pretty distinctive and highly consistent if you know what to look for.

Thinking about the Frank Wilson disc I went to my shelves to pick out a handful of Motown releases from 1965-1966 to look at the markings on the deadwax and and copy on the labels. My copy of Marvin Gaye's "Little Darling" is an odd one in that it was lacquered at RCA Chicago (like every single other Motown release from 1965-66), plated at Nashville, but pressed at RCA Hollywood (upper case "H" clearly in the deadwax) and with labels from Southern Plastics. The Nashville Matrix code for a release like this was "10", as opposed to the "5" (meaning to be pressed at Southern Plastics itself) on the Frank Wilson disc.

Other RCA Hollywood Motown pressings I have from the same timeframe have RCA-originated labels. The typefaces are all consistent with general RCA typesetting rules, the RCA matrix codes are on the labels as well as the Motown Duplicate Master codes and crucially the label stock is high-gloss paper.  Southern Plastics pressings never have these high gloss labels and generally don't have the RCA matrices on the labels themselves.

Edited by garethx

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I also agree that how this record sounds is as important as the fact that it's from a different plant to the so-far-known copies. ARP pressings were notorious as the cheapest, noisiest vinyl records you could get from a major facility. I'd imagine a Southern Plastics copy would sound appreciably better. 

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It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the "Do I Love You" master number is different (4916 on the SO copy, 4914 on the ARP copy), are they indeed different?

Edited by mshoals

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1 hour ago, mshoals said:

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that the "Do I Love You" master number is different (4916 on the SO copy, 4914 on the ARP copy), are they indeed different?

4914 and 4915 on both ... :thumbsup:

runouts.thumb.JPG.39d34870764cedf0e82b3593544d1630.JPG

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And, the record is now safe in a bank safety deposit box until it is offered for sale, hence, I guess, no sound clip yet. The current owners FB page thanks all from the NS world for their support and seem genuine nice people. Good luck to them.

Edited by jim g

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