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JulianB

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41 minutes ago, chalky said:

But those records on soul sounds boots are played up and down the country on original vinyl by dozens of djs. They aren’t particularly rare. Your arguement doesn’t stand up. 

Those records you think are dross might be enjoyed by the majority of dancers there.  Again your argument doesn’t stand up. 

Again, and forgive me, but I feel you are missing the point. Or that I'm putting it across in my usual ham fisted way. I don't really care about rarity. I only care about the QUALITY. Thats why I used those examples. We have both been at events where mega rare R&B type tracks have cleared the floor, and the DJ has kept it clear by continuing his playlist, rather than doing his proper job, and amending said playlist to fill the floor. If I feel a record is dross, but the rest of the punters enjoy it, then I'm the one in the wrong. But.....that's not what I said!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kenb said:

I agree with much of what you say, but Your Line above -Now, here we are in 2018, almost fifty years later, and every Tom, Dick and Harry, weighed down with a baby boomer inheritance and a final salary pension, can afford to spend thirty grand on a box of seven inch goodies, and call himself a DJ at any one of a gazillion events which are on every night of the week. It's not the same as it was. Completely different set of circumstances entirely...But this...

Also applies to every Tom, Dick and Harry spending peanuts on (boot) seven inch goodies, etc etc. and then the music becomes proliferated (to my mind in an undesirable way) by wannabe DJ's. NB. i'm not and never have been a DJ myself.

 

Ken, of course you're right to say that any T,D or H can buy a box of boots. But the wannabe DJs are the ones who have come into money late in life, and merrily gone out and spent a small fortune on a collection. That, to me, makes them collectors, NOT DJ's. If we're looking at the music being proliferated too much, we're already there, and have been for forty or more years, ever since "you know what" happened to the scene in 75. But I don't want to go there again this morning!!!!!!!!

Edited by Joey

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Like Pete said-we've visited this topic many times.

I can only say...i play anything at home OV and the rest, rather sadly though (i suspect)🙄...if people come to the house and ask me put my records on, then i can't even bring myself to play anything that isn't OV. 

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Its a funny old arguement put simply you could stare at a print of the Mona Lisa and enjoy its visual impact but its just a print that lacks provenance or a tangible link to the artist that for me is the difference .

Original vinyl reflects a point in history places people and events it means something to me .

I take Joeys point early seventies I didnt care either .

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Let’s also not forget that quite a lot of collector/djs haven’t spent a fortune and actually paid peanuts for a lot of their records after staying on the scene, I’m talking about from say 1980 onwards , or just collecting when the scene went through it’s quieter days , so let’s get this notion that when you hear an expensive record played that the dj has paid a fortune , I remember paying £20 for the Parisian s , so I suppose if someone heard me playing it theyll  presume I’ve paid silly money for it ! Parliament heart trouble was a mere 50p , lots of people will have had the same experience,wade flemons 5r , some guys will have paid less than that no doubt. Yes the popular sounds back then were booted because of demand etc but you wouldn’t have got say, a wade flemons on a boot would you , so what I’m saying is there were plenty of quality sounds not booted that were cheaper and better than some of the booted titles , in song and sound quality ! And if some people didn’t buy these records back then that’s just tough and that ship sailed by .

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1 hour ago, Colnago said:

Let’s also not forget that quite a lot of collector/djs haven’t spent a fortune and actually paid peanuts for a lot of their records after staying on the scene, I’m talking about from say 1980 onwards , or just collecting when the scene went through it’s quieter days , so let’s get this notion that when you hear an expensive record played that the dj has paid a fortune , I remember paying £20 for the Parisian s , so I suppose if someone heard me playing it theyll  presume I’ve paid silly money for it ! Parliament heart trouble was a mere 50p , lots of people will have had the same experience,wade flemons 5r , some guys will have paid less than that no doubt. Yes the popular sounds back then were booted because of demand etc but you wouldn’t have got say, a wade flemons on a boot would you , so what I’m saying is there were plenty of quality sounds not booted that were cheaper and better than some of the booted titles , in song and sound quality ! And if some people didn’t buy these records back then that’s just tough and that ship sailed by .

That maybe the case for some but many of the main players have spent and continue to spend a fortune.  You have to to Dj at most of the nighters. 

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6 minutes ago, chalky said:

That maybe the case for some but many of the main players have spent and continue to spend a fortune.  You have to to Dj at most of the nighters. 

I agree chalky , just saying for your soul nights , and just trying to get the point across that not all have spent fortunes.

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These OVO arguments make me smile everytime. It's really interesting to compare this with similar scenes such as the Rockabilly / RnR crowd. Some of their sounds are mega rare but no one cares, even at large events if reissues are played and DJs are judged solely on the quality of their sets musically rather than the depth of their pockets. That doesn't stop the collecting of records and nor does it prevent appreciation when originals are played. 

True,  dishonesty should be rooted out but I'd rather have a rich and varied set of mixed originals/reissues than hear the same old tunes that someone has paid too much for just because they're original. 

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We have been through this about a hundred times, so i am going to ask the same question that i asked last time.

If i'm dj-ing and want to protect my £1000's original, can i play the bootleg and just hold my original up so that everybody can see, You also have to remember that there is little chance that i'm going to find/afford an other original?

 

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8 hours ago, gogs said:

We have been through this about a hundred times, so i am going to ask the same question that i asked last time.

If i'm dj-ing and want to protect my £1000's original, can i play the bootleg and just hold my original up so that everybody can see, You also have to remember that there is little chance that i'm going to find/afford an other original?

 

That would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

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11 hours ago, The Fox said:

dishonesty should be rooted out but I'd rather have a rich and varied set of mixed originals/reissues than hear the same old tunes that someone has paid too much for just because they're original. 

Totally agree on the dishonesty part. Surely if only originals were played then all dj's would have to put together a 'rich and varied' set. It is because of boots/re-issues being played that you get to hear the same sounds....   

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24 minutes ago, Steve S 60 said:

WANTED - Soul Inspectors.  For a small registration fee, you can issue OBB permits to DJs at venues in your area on a commission basis.

Hahahaha...

Cheers for that Steve, I need to refill my coffee cup and replace my computer keyboard now !

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The problem with this thread is there is no solution , When a scene is fragmented and watered down like the NS scene has become it becomes a magnet for wannabes and johnny come lately,s it opens door for them that were closed to them before because in the day they would have just not been good enough, like other music scenes particular Dance which  became watered down a lot quicker and ruined than NS , You can waste a hell of a lot of negative energy on things you can't change especially worrying about people on the fringes of NS cocking things up with no knowledge bootlegs, ect better to concentrate on what's left of the Good scene the Good people and what's left of the good venues

ML

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2 hours ago, chalky said:

Why not have a mixed and varied set of originals? You don’t have to spend thousands and this is where the root of the evil that bootlegs lie, they think they have to have all the expensive tunes otherwise beyond them.  There is no credibility in playing bootlegs and to be frank playing all the big money classics is just boring. 

Imagination doesn’t cost a fortune.....

Agree That’s what I was saying/trying to say in my previous post ,  

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On 28/06/2018 at 10:41, chalky said:

Why not have a mixed and varied set of originals? You don’t have to spend thousands and this is where the root of the evil that bootlegs lie, they think they have to have all the expensive tunes otherwise beyond them.  There is no credibility in playing bootlegs and to be frank playing all the big money classics is just boring. 

Imagination doesn’t cost a fortune.....

Totally agree that an imaginative set doesn't need to cost the earth but I think the point has been missed. Other scenes still appreciate originals but they don't get excited if it's not all original. I love going to big alnighters and seeing the video of the rare copies being spun but I absolutely wouldn't care if the dj put on a boot/reissue to keep the set alive. I'd rather hear it that way than not at all. The acceptability of reissues in other scenes make a broader range more viable - it's not seen as a ain to buy and play a reissue for the love of the music rather than the rarity of the label.

As has been said earlier there's never going to be agreement so the debate will just drag on. Just remember this, we all live on a spectrum of acceptability and we have to respect that.

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On 28/06/2018 at 17:46, Colnago said:

Was Just discussing yesterday with someone about the Mona Lisa , going to the Louvre and then being told it’s a fake , how would you feel? Or how would you feel if it was advertised, “ come see the fake Mona Lisa “ I wonder what the ticket sales figures would be . 

Personally I go to Northern Soul events for the music. Perhaps that's why I'm more relaxed about the debate. 

 

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1 hour ago, The Fox said:

Personally I go to Northern Soul events for the music. Perhaps that's why I'm more relaxed about the debate. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, middleman said:

Plus, you cannot look at music.

What about the sound quality and integrity. Never mind eh 

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6 minutes ago, Colnago said:

 

What about the sound quality and integrity. Never mind eh 

Of course sound quality is important,  but you can play reissues etc and still have sound quality and ntegrity. It's all about honesty. 

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1 hour ago, The Fox said:

Of course sound quality is important,  but you can play reissues etc and still have sound quality and ntegrity. It's all about honesty. 

Yes , all about honesty too , as per Mona Lisa , it wasn’t about the visual aspect, lol, just as Russ was saying about the Terracotta Army , it’s the principle. 

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2 hours ago, The Fox said:

Of course sound quality is important,  but you can play reissues etc and still have sound quality and ntegrity. It's all about honesty. 

maybe watch the JM youtube vid where he evaluates the sound quality of originals vs non originals, to cut a long story short originals sound louder, better

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59 minutes ago, shufflin said:

maybe watch the JM youtube vid where he evaluates the sound quality of originals vs non originals, to cut a long story short originals sound louder, better

Even some battered up original which the seller states is “fine for DJ’ing”?

 

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19 minutes ago, middleman said:

Even some battered up original which the seller states is “fine for DJ’ing”?

 

if the original is battered it will sound crap, but a clean original will sound better than a copy, no?

 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, shufflin said:

if the original is battered it will sound crap, but a clean original will sound better than a copy, no?

 

The problem with this is that with most originals being 50-60 years old it is getting harder and harder to find a clean copy

Edited by gogs

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8 hours ago, middleman said:

Even some battered up original which the seller states is “fine for DJ’ing”?

 

Had the worst copy in the world of Sam & Kitty. I've got something good.  It looked like it had been run over by a 40 tonne truck on the M6 for a week but it played perfect on numerous different sets of decks at various venues over the years. 

Steve 

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13 hours ago, The Fox said:

 

13 hours ago, Colnago said:

 

What about the sound quality and integrity. Never mind eh 

Of course sound quality is important,  but you can play reissues etc and still have sound quality and ntegrity. It's all about honesty. 

 

Can’t remember who said it , some famous dude no doubt, but the quote was “ keep saying it enough , the truth will become the lie”

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9 minutes ago, Colnago said:

Can’t remember who said it , some famous dude no doubt, but the quote was “ keep saying it enough , the truth will become the lie”

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Joseph Goebbels

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3 minutes ago, TattooDave said:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Joseph Goebbels

Now he was a crook! Thanks Dave . 

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3 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Had the worst copy in the world of Sam & Kitty. I've got something good.  It looked like it had been run over by a 40 tonne truck on the M6 for a week but it played perfect on numerous different sets of decks at various venues over the years. 

Steve 

Yeah I know WS, I was just making the distinction of something you go to see as opposed to something you go to hear.

Enjoy your weekend (hope you get some good photo ops)

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1 hour ago, middleman said:

Yeah I know WS, I was just making the distinction of something you go to see as opposed to something you go to hear.

Enjoy your weekend (hope you get some good photo ops)

I understood what you where saying mate . I was just expanding on it , I think 😄 

Thanks for the good weekend thoughts and you mate. Hopefully will be going up on the moors above Bury to get some pictures of the fire from across the valley so as not to interfere with the emergency services 

Steve 

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Brilliant thread. I've been waiting for this one as I've never seen it discussed properly at length. Thanks everyone for keeping it on a chilled level meaning it can actually be read and the sensibilities of it appreciated properly. I've purposely kept out of it. Very interesting discussion and good points raised from both sides of the debate. Cheers! :hatsoff2:

ps: Met up with some members and avid observers at the weekend up North West. There's quite a lot of folks enjoying reading and contributing, all excellent news!

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Posted (edited)

Bootlegs = just wrong, criminal and the playing/acceptance of them just encourages more crooks to make them.  When it comes to re-issues (legal ones) v ovo then I guess there is an argument along the lines of...…… came to dance to it, couldn't tell without looking at the label, most people dont care etc....  which is I suppose a 'logical' argument. However for me soul music is not about logic is about the heart and knowing the record is original, whether playing or dancing makes it for me.   

Edited by bbrich
mis-typed

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9 hours ago, bbrich said:

Bootlegs = just wrong, criminal and the playing/acceptance of them just encourages more crooks to make them.  When it comes to re-issues (legal ones) v ovo then I guess there is an argument along the lines of...…… came to dance to it, couldn't tell without looking at the label, most people dont care etc....  which is I suppose a 'logical' argument. However for me soul music is not about logic is about the heart and knowing the record is original, whether playing or dancing makes it for me.   

If you know the venue and the DJ's you can normally trust the records to be originals, But when you go somewhere new and listen to somebody new unless ovo is listed on the flyer or your standing right behind the DJ how would you know? Don't say record quality because originals sound will deteriorate with plays. 

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On 03/07/2018 at 13:15, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Brilliant thread. I've been waiting for this one as I've never seen it discussed properly at length. Thanks everyone for keeping it on a chilled level meaning it can actually be read and the sensibilities of it appreciated properly. I've purposely kept out of it. Very interesting discussion and good points raised from both sides of the debate. Cheers! :hatsoff2:

ps: Met up with some members and avid observers at the weekend up North West. There's quite a lot of folks enjoying reading and contributing, all excellent news!

Never seen it discussed? 😳 you must have been reading the internet with your eyes shut 😂🤪

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9 hours ago, gogs said:

If you know the venue and the DJ's you can normally trust the records to be originals, But when you go somewhere new and listen to somebody new unless ovo is listed on the flyer or your standing right behind the DJ how would you know? Don't say record quality because originals sound will deteriorate with plays. 

Personally I don't like seeing 'OVO' stated on flyers.

I know the DJs / venues / and promoters I like & respect - It's simply not an issue that needs focusing on (It kind of 'cheapens' the event if it has to be stated)

That's me :wink:

Len :thumbsup:

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3 hours ago, chalky said:

Never seen it discussed? 😳 you must have been reading the internet with your eyes shut 😂🤪

LoL no Chalky, I've only been on here a couple of years, every time a discussion has been hinted at it's died a death as being a subject that's been done to death. Folks who've been on for donkeys years I'm sure you've seen it many times but no not me, only seen it discussed in small ways.

The Soul scene is the only area of specialist music where it is even discussed, outside of record collecting, where original vinyl is obviously highly prized, but then other music scenes are more geared towards live acts doing the old classics, something the soul scene has never embraced. 

It interests me intensely.

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On 26/06/2018 at 18:54, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

Best to avoid MP3 venues unless in Majorca, Canaries etc and it’s Trance, House or Techno... If the DJ has a laptop, he’s not a proper DJ - you have to spin discs to be a disc jockey. The DJ with a laptop is a crowd pleaser but only because the term lap dancer was already taken...

What a crock........I perfectly understand the OVO/rare scene and respect it, but it's no excuse for talking rubbish.  Things are just different, doesn't make anyone (necessarily) any less of a DJ!

 

Cheers,

Mark R

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