"I,ve Been Cheated" Dalton Boys .

[John Hart]

Hi Guys ,

             on VIP straight logo white demo does the necessary RCA correct matrix number have to be machine stamped or hand scratched to be original legal 1st or 2nd company issue ? As motown singles dj especially where pressed in thousands is stamping or etching any guide to authenticity/originality? Cheers John.

[Blackpoolsoul]

Staggered is original

Matrix / Runout (A machine stamped): SK4M--2682-1-A

Matrix / Runout (A hand etched): AC-II-148301

Matrix / Runout (B machine stamped): SK4M--2687-1-A

Matrix / Runout (B hand etched): AC-LX-155104

Straight copy is also original as appears to have same stampers both from November 1965 (me thinks)

 

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[John Hart]

Hi Alan ,

                 Cheers for your info ,much appreciated the 2nd issue straight VIP lettering ,I have, has all the exact numbers ,stamped and hand etched as per you post, with after the matrix numbers appears to be "Best" written on a and b side run outs ,or is this an anagram for Boot?? Disc was bought from Highly respected U,S, dealer as a genuine later motown VIP dj copy ,Mint minus ,but actually looks amazing condition wise! 

John Manships guide talks of a Counterfeit lookalike from 70s with blank run outs ,  is this someone with a"Needle  In The Run Out " Jobby ? The plot Thickens ? ,Cheers LOL ,John.

[Blackpoolsoul]

The "Best" is easy

Bestway Products Inc. Defunct injection-molding record pressing plant which was located in Mountainside, New Jersey, USA. 
Founded in 1946 and active until the mid-1980s. 
The company pressed for labels such as Bell, Scepter, Yew, etc. Bestway's Founder, Al Massler, was responsible for pioneering the manufacturing practice of using styrene to press records (particularly 45's). 
Often marked with a "B", "BW", "BEST", or oblique "Bestway" stamped in run-out. "BW" may be found also in the label matrix. 

 

 

[John Hart]

Cheers Again Al ,

                          Sounds encouraging your info ,currently 2 same dj copies on Discogs at £150 each , Thanks for your Time ,John.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Got a bit confused by this.

There is an original with straight logo ?  Machine stamped numbers and some small kinda stamp I can't read. According to Manship guide I read too.

Just sorting my Motown.

I have Downbeats WDJ 25029 and Headliners WDJ25026 with exactly same markings so Daltons being 25025 is from that period.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Modernsoulsucks

[Louise]

And not forgetting the multi-coloured VIP Demo design too

Dave

 

[Modernsoulsucks]

49 minutes ago, Louise said:

And not forgetting the multi-coloured VIP Demo design too

Dave

 

Doesn't quite answer my question.

BPoolS 's reply reads to me like the straight logo is a boot.

I am right in saying if machine stamped it's not ? It's real ? Yes ?

Edited August 10, 2019 by Modernsoulsucks

[Campagnolo 1]

I bought one recently with a straight logo but correct matrix no's.? Paper is matt white. Is this a boot.??thanks.

 

[John Hart]

Hi Campagnolo1,{ I get it , you are a Cyclist ?}

                        My original post : I bought a Straight Logo VIP demo off Graig Moerer Records USA for $85 in June 2019 including ship in Near Mint Condition , Superb item,with fully correct ,hand scratched matrix in run out plus ,"Best ",{The Pressing plant}.

After bedtime reading of JM,s Booty Guide . Got a little moist and worried.?? Contacted Craig Moerer ,whom assured  me they had, had many Daltons since 1965 ,a mix of hand and machine stamped matrixs, all where Kosher! 

As a massive Motown guy ,looking at many , discs ,stamped and scratched is the norm ,and as JM says always buy from reputable dealer !!,Would any one here doubt Mr Craig Moerer,s Reputation. ??

                                                                        Cheers John , Malaga,Spain.

y issues stamped or scratched is the norm .

[Modernsoulsucks]

So it's your fault John !

It's B/P Soul's reply that threw me. 

There's obviously "straight" original WDJ's. There's loads with that design around at that time which I've got here.

As long as the DB's has the stamped and scratched # it's an original.

There's a copy on Popsike sold by Tefteller. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Modernsoulsucks

[John Hart]

Hi Rodders ,

                        Guilty as Charged , but still unanswered is the fundamental Q.I. Is a machine stamp or hand scratched,, a   guarantee of  authenticity?{ Thinking of Similar Big lables to Motown; ,CBS ,Okeh ,Columbia etc,, I have a recent copy of Raphael Saadiq "Love That Girl"Columbia with hand scratched matrix looks dodgy, are Originals machine stamped?} 

Oh for the wisdom of the man in the big Woolly Cardy ,Johnny Manship.

                                                                               Cheers ,John

 

 

[Modernsoulsucks]

That's a question one could discuss endlessly at some all-nighter rather than doing something useful.

There's Dave Flynn's site

https://www.anorakscorner.com/deadwax-matrix

or I guess just google USA Pressing Plants.

Wouldn't recommend as a hobby in itself but just next time you're in doubt instead of putting the willies up everybody.

[Garethx]

Every Motown release from early 1965 onwards was mastered at RCA Chicago. Regardless of where the 45 was pressed there should be an RCA Custom code. Before this date they used both RCA Chicago and Bell Sound in NY for mastering services. Things changed again once the corporation moved to California in mid 1972. Indeed RCA sold those studios to Curtom in 1972.

I would have thought the RCA Custom codes would be consistent across all releases of a particular 45, regardless of which factory a 45 was eventually pressed at. I've never had a Dalton Boys but my understanding is that the RCA Custom code is machine stamped by the mastering engineer at RCA while the DM code (Motown's own labyrinthine accreditation system for dividing up monies due showing producer, arranger, recording engineer etc.) is always etched in by the recording session engineer onto the stamped lacquers they received back from RCA. Actual catalogue numbers—V.I.P.-25025 in this case—are never in the deadwax.

The 'straight VIP' copies are from ARP, the staggered ones from Southern Plastics in Nashville while the coloured demos are from Monarch in LA.

I've just grabbed a random selection of twenty mid 60s Motown 45s from my shelves. Across all labels and all pressing plants there is a Stamped RCA Custom code on at least one side of the 45, with two exceptions. The Marvelettes "As Long As I Know He's Mine" from Southern Plastics has the RCA code scratched in, not stamped on both sides. I have two copies of The Four Tops "It's The Same Old Song", a Monarch styrene pressing and one from RCA Rockaway. The Monarch one is unique among the sample for having no RCA code whatsoever. The RCA Rockaway pressing does have the code however: stamped on the A-side but etched on the b-side. All the other Monarch pressings from the records I pulled out have RCA stamped codes though.

Not many Motown 45s were pressed at Bestway. I can think of a couple of Soul label releases like The Hit Pack where Bestway cocked up the label artwork to include 'distributed by Bell' copy in error. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Garethx

[John Hart]

Hi Gareth or Malcolm X,

                                         Fantastic Information ,very impressive ,superb .You fail to answer the simple question is a Dalton Boys 2nd issue  with scratched matrix ,pressed at Bestway ,,Fully Kosher ,Genuine ,Real Deal , worth $85 I paid from Craig Moerer  Records USA,  GENUINE ??????  YES or NO ?  Answer ?? Many thanks ,Cheers ,Have A great Day LOL John Malaga,Spain,

[Garethx]

When you say scratched matrix which part do you mean? SK4M-2682 should be stamped. The DM code, AC-II-148301, should be scratched or etched.

[Garethx]

The OOTP boot of this with zero runout info sticks out a mile. The typesetting is very primitive and makes no attempt to look like any legitimate Motown product.

Also I don't understand what you mean by second issue. There is no second issue of this 45. There are regional variations pressed at the same time. I suspect that the stamp you see on your 45 is the ARP (American Record Pressing Co. in Owosso, Michigan) logo in an oblique script.

[Chalky]

Sounds to me like you have an original and some one has scratched “best” in the runout at a later date, an owner of the disc maybe.  As Gareth says there is no second issue, just regional variants

Bestway used a BW or Bestway itself in any stamp, usually.  

[Modernsoulsucks]

8 hours ago, Garethx said:

The OOTP boot of this with zero runout info sticks out a mile. The typesetting is very primitive and makes no attempt to look like any legitimate Motown product.

Also I don't understand what you mean by second issue. There is no second issue of this 45. There are regional variations pressed at the same time. I suspect that the stamp you see on your 45 is the ARP (American Record Pressing Co. in Owosso, Michigan) logo in an oblique script.

I find it extremely difficult to tell what the stamp is !

[Blackpoolsoul]

18 minutes ago, Modernsoulsucks said:

I find it extremely difficult to tell what the stamp is !

This is the ARP stamp

[Modernsoulsucks]

No use I'm afraid. I can obviously see stamp in picture.

Couldn't make out stamp on DB [or the two other VIP 45s I mentioned in an earlier post].

Motown are back in the bedding cupboard now so I'm not getting them out again.

Clare tells me off !

 

[45cellar]

 

14 hours ago, Garethx said:

The OOTP boot of this with zero runout info sticks out a mile. The typesetting is very primitive and makes no attempt to look like any legitimate Motown product.

Also I don't understand what you mean by second issue. There is no second issue of this 45. There are regional variations pressed at the same time. I suspect that the stamp you see on your 45 is the ARP (American Record Pressing Co. in Owosso, Michigan) logo in an oblique script.

The DEMO with the straight logo from "Arp" pressing plant.

As mentioned above is an original and there are other pressing plants.

Deadwax detail for "Arp" press.

[Blackpoolsoul]

41 minutes ago, 45cellar said:

 

The DEMO with the straight logo from "Arp" pressing plant.

As mentioned above is an original and there are other pressing plants.

Deadwax detail for "Arp" press.

Superb stuff, perhaps John can get his camera out to show us the "Best" matrix details on his copy and then this thread can finish.

Well apart from this image of Simon's bootleg (my copy is being used as wedge under some furniture In my shed, I wonder why)

Edited August 12, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 12/08/2019 at 15:54, 45cellar said:

 

The DEMO with the straight logo from "Arp" pressing plant.

As mentioned above is an original and there are other pressing plants.

Deadwax detail for "Arp" press.

I am interested to know if the ARP is "Archer Record Pressing" or "American Record Pressing" as both are/were in Detroit but not connected and I am more Familiar with the Archer stamp

It may have been discussed before so I do apologise if I missed it

[Chalky]

40 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I am interested to know if the ARP is "Archer Record Pressing" or "American Record Pressing" as both are/were in Detroit but not connected and I am more Familiar with the Archer stamp

It may have been discussed before so I do apologise if I missed it

ARP is The American Record Pressing Co.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Chalky