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Posted (edited)

Another one - it's only the intro but I always think the Masqueraders is Milton Wright when it first comes on. Clearly not but if you took the strings off . . . . 

 

 

Edited by Timillustrator
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Ray Charles song is said to be based on -   

Stating the obvious...  Ed  

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Timillustrator said:

Another one - it's only the intro but I always think the Masqueraders is Milton Wright when it first comes on. Clearly not but if you took the strings off . . . . 

 

 

Weird that Tommy Cogbill would copy an Ollie McGlaughlin backing track.  I wonder if Milton Wright (R. Rights III) is the connection?  The Masqueraders, originally from Texas, did work out of Detroit with LaBeat Records for 3 years.  They should have met Ollie during that period.

Edited by Robbk
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Posted

That's not even the case of Wally Roker and Big Dee Ervin using the same background track for two different productions.  They are the exact same song.  It's just a song title change (or Alternative title).

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Posted (edited)

This early version of "He Who Picks A Rose" isn't an exact copy

but comes awfully close to ....

 

Edited by The Yank
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Posted
4 hours ago, Concrete said:

Can't see any cross production credits wonder how it came about? 

Spot on interesting 1970 and 1972 respectively

The only answer as far as I can see that the credits were for the words and not the music, but others will know more than me

 

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Posted

I think that Milton Wright The Gallop sounds similar to Little Ann, Who are you trying to fool in parts. 

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Posted

The basic beats of "My Sugar Baby" and "Do I Love You" are remotely similar (one of 3 or 4 Frank Wilson's "fast song styles", to which he has returned many times.  But "Do I Love You" has different instruments featured at different times, with different melodies, and it also has a LOT more changes and breaks, while "My Sugar Baby" rarely deviates from its basic beat (bass line).  So, I would say that these two songs are far from being identical.

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Posted

I agree.

I used to get told you can tell they are from the same musicians because of the similarities, but It does not jump straight out as that. 

Ed

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Posted
5 hours ago, Tomangoes said:

I agree.

I used to get told you can tell they are from the same musicians because of the similarities, but It does not jump straight out as that.  Ed

I don't believe that the same musicians were playing on both.  We could look up the session dates.  I'm sure they were several months apart.  "Do I Love You" sounds a lot better, but maybe that's because "My Sugar Baby" wasn't finished with its mixes.  The Connie Clark was a Joker Production, so it may not have been the same L.A. studio, and certainly could have been a completely different set of instrumentalists. 

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Posted
On 19/11/2019 at 22:10, The Yank said:

This early version of "He Who Picks A Rose" isn't an exact copy

but comes awfully close to ....

 

You're right, it certainly sounds like it was the inspiration for it. They changed it enough to make it it's own thing though.

 

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Posted

Actually that reminds me I once read an interview with John Lennon where he was talking about the Beatles song "You Know My Name (Look Up The Number)" and said he was trying to write a Four Tops kind of thing but then changed it into a comedy record. I can hear what he meant but think actually it's a copy of something but can't put my finger on the actual song. Any ideas? Just the intro. 

 

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Can't remember the title etc, but somebody posted the ' inspiration' for ton of dynamite a few years ago, and it's a great record on its own merit.

Now for 2 great 70s funk monsters. Surely an inspiration from one to the other.. 

Ed

 

 

Ed

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On 20/11/2019 at 18:49, Gilly said:

I think that Milton Wright The Gallop sounds similar to Little Ann, Who are you trying to fool in parts. 

Absolutely love both of them but can't hear it myself? The middle 8 of Little Ann (where it's in double time) is sort of the same beat though and there's a nice mixture of minor and major chords in both.

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, 45cellar said:

 

Did Motown sue to get half the songwriting credits and publishing rights?  They had a better claim on this one than on "Ask Any Girl' or some of the others they won.  This is pure stealing

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Posted
1 hour ago, The Yank said:

This sounds like it may have been the "inspiration" for Venicia Wilson's

"This Time I'm Loving You" - 

 

Nothing to do with inspiration , just some fat bootlegger nicking big chunks of others work like he did with George Smith on his more 'famous' travesty.

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3 hours ago, The Yank said:

Currently up for auction on a well known site, this is 

an almost carbon copy - 

Is this Leiber & Stoller stealing from themselves (their own label).  They moved on to Atlantic before Ray Charles recorded that for Atlantic.  So IF Atlantic wanted to use their tune, they probably asked Leiber & Stoller permission, because they were sitting right in their studio and offices right at the time.  Maybe Atlantic offered them some cash for it.  The song writing was credited to Ray Charles, for writing the new words.

 

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Posted (edited)

Right, on the subject of Paul Weller, listen to this and tell me which weller song around the Wild wood period did that guitar solo cause I love this 45, but it’s been driving me crazy for a decade, Paul Weller has done that guitar solo in one of his tracks, other than the above:/)  just don’t know which one ! 


 

 

Edited by Mal C
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Couple others that come to mind

Ervin Rucker - She’s all right

Not that is a bad thing, but sounds like a straight lift from: 

bobby bland - yield not to temptation

I guess we should also throw in ‘tighten ups’ as a whole genre that sound like one track ! 

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Couple others that come to mind

Ervin Rucker - She’s all right

Not that is a bad thing, but sounds like a straight lift from: 

bobby bland - yield not to temptation

I guess we should also throw in ‘tighten ups’ as a whole genre that sound like one track ! 

 

Willie and The Mighty Magnificents and Frankie Crocker posted above by @Tomangoes are right out of the 'Tighten Up' mould, I'm sure theres another one just like those first two.

Edited by Timillustrator
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Posted (edited)
On 21/11/2019 at 20:54, Robbk said:

 

       Ray Charles recorded "I Got A Woman" in November of 1954. The Frankie Marshall 45 was reviewed in Billboard in June of 1955.

       California based Leiber and Stoller didn't begin their association with Atlantic until  1955 so I doubt if they were sitting in their offices when

       Ray recorded "I Got A Woman".  Here's an article from November, 1955- 

soul Spark

Edited by The Yank
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So, it was the other way round, with Leiber and Stoller in L.A. Stealing Ray Charles' tune to use in their Frankie Marshall production. The Nov. 12, 1955 article states that the association of the two labels began several weeks (at most, a couple months) before (perhaps late August, or early September, 1955).  Can you tell me the month of 1955 that The Frankie Marshall Spark 45 came out?  It had to come out BEFORE the deal with Atlantic was signed, as that is when Spark Records stopped its operations.  IF the Spark record's use of Ray Charles' tune was agreed upon by Atlantic because they were already in negotiations with Leiber and Stoller, one would guess that the proper publisher, Progressive Music, which published "I Got A Woman" would have been printed on the Spark record label, rather than just L&S' Quintet Music.  Leiber and Stoller wouldn't have asked a favour of Atlantic and then "stolen" a song from them.  Or, IF they had NO relationship with Atlantic when The Marshall production was going on, it seems awfully coincidental that they would end up partnering up with a firm from whom they had stolen a song.  I'm guessing that they already had some relationship with Atlantic, and asked permission to use Ray Charles' tune, perhaps paying a fee to do so, and agreeing to share the music publishing. but in innocent error, forgot to add Progressive Music to the credits on the label.  I can't read the music publishing credits on the Spark record above.  Maybe both Quintet and Progressive Music ARE listed, and the tune was NOT stolen.

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Posted (edited)

Here's a better picture of the Frankie Marshall - 

I don't know the exact month it was released but, as I said before it was reviewed in June, 1955 in Billboard. 

 

soul Frankie

Edited by The Yank
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Posted (edited)

How about ‘Can I change my mind’ clones, loads of those and they are all fab! 
 

Tyrone Davis - can I change my mind

-/ 

Ray Hines - is it something you got 

 

Edited by Mal C
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19 minutes ago, Mal C said:

How about ‘Can I change my mind’ clones, loads of those and they are all fab! 
 

Tyrone Davis - can I change my mind

-/ 

Ray Hines - is it something you got 

 

Yes Mal here’s another


and then small labels like forte and tuska have recycled backing tracks for various releases.

 

lee Harris and marva Whitney both providing fantastic uptempo hard soul over the same backing of forte.

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Posted
13 hours ago, Mal C said:

Right, on the subject of Paul Weller, listen to this and tell me which weller song around the Wild wood period did that guitar solo cause I love this 45, but it’s been driving me crazy for a decade, Paul Weller has done that guitar solo in one of his tracks, other than the above:/)  just don’t know which one ! 

 

 

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Posted
8 hours ago, The Yank said:

Here's a better picture of the Frankie Marshall - 

I don't know the exact month it was released but, as I said before it was reviewed in June, 1955 in Billboard. 

 

soul Frankie

So Leiber and Stoller FAILED to give Ray Charles credit for writing the music, and also Progressive Music for publishing Charles' music.  Maybe Ahmet FINED them a bunch of money when they came on board, or took it out of their salaries or what cut % they'd have gotten in the deal?  😎

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Posted

That Ray Hines posted above is actually just a cover of a different Tyrone Davis song, Is It Something You've Got. Which, yes, sounds like his bigger hit.

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Posted

Slightly different phenomenon, but: The bridge from Hit and Run resurfaces in another George McGregor composition, Little Rena Scott's I Just Can't Forget That Boy. It's at 1:11 in Rose, 1:53 in Rena.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

 

 

Always wondered about these as the writing credits are completely different

Edited by grouse
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Posted
On 22/11/2019 at 21:12, Robbk said:

So Leiber and Stoller FAILED to give Ray Charles credit for writing the music, and also Progressive Music for publishing Charles' music.  Maybe Ahmet FINED them a bunch of money when they came on board, or took it out of their salaries or what cut % they'd have gotten in the deal?  😎

       I'm not going to speculate on this. Let's face it, "Just Say The Word" was a B side, and the record wasn't a hit. If it was a big seller, I'm sure there 

      would have been lawsuits. Leiber and Stoller probably saw Ray wasn't getting any pushback from Don Robey and Duke and probably wanted a piece of the action.  

                In their book "Hound Dog", Leiber and Stoller don't mention this record causing any problems when they started negotiating with Nesuhi Ertegun

         when he was negotiating with them to come to Atlantic.

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Posted
4 minutes ago, The Yank said:

       I'm not going to speculate on this. Let's face it, "Just Say The Word" was a B side, and the record wasn't a hit. If it was a big seller, I'm sure there 

      would have been lawsuits. Leiber and Stoller probably saw Ray wasn't getting any pushback from Don Robey and Duke and probably wanted a piece of the action.  

                In their book "Hound Dog", Leiber and Stoller don't mention this record causing any problems when they started negotiating with Nesuhi Ertegun

         when he was negotiating with them to come to Atlantic.

I was making a joke, being facetious there, thus the emoji.  But isn't it ironic that they stole a song from Atlantic, and then signed a big deal to be a co-production division of that same company?  I wonder how many times that happened in music history.  Its has some similarity(in a way) to Berry Gordy's buying out of his competition in Detroit (Ed Wingate twice(Golden World (1966) Ric Tic(1968), (The Hazel&Robert Coleman's Thelma (1966), (Artie Fields'Top Dog 1967), Mike Hanks' D-Town(1966), and taking in staff (Wingate&Thelma)from some, or using their masters(Fields&Hanks). Ed Wingate did that with Correc-Tone, buying out Wilbur Golden, and picking up some of his staff, and using his artists.

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Posted
8 hours ago, grouse said:

 

 

Always wondered about these as the writing credits are completely different

But it is only the song's intro that's the same the rest of the two songs are different, similar to Jackie Ross' "Selfish One".  Nevertheless, lawsuits have been won over just intros being copied.

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Posted
On 23/11/2019 at 16:57, weingarden said:

That Ray Hines posted above is actually just a cover of a different Tyrone Davis song, Is It Something You've Got. Which, yes, sounds like his bigger hit.

Is it really? Hummhh... that said allot of Tyrone’s records were all derivative from “change my mind” in the first place.. I think I’m actually starting to loose my listening marbles sometimes...

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