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News: BBC - Fake Britain - Vinyl Bootlegs - 28 Nov 2019

Posted

so are they buying boots that have already had a legit vinyl release (in which case why?) or is this people buying boots of the really rare stuff that's never been re-issued/had a legit release before?

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Posted
26 minutes ago, Shufflin said:

so are they buying boots that have already had a legit vinyl release (in which case why?) or is this people buying boots of the really rare stuff that's never been re-issued/had a legit release before?

As I said they're buying what they like without spending large sums.

Tbh I've only a vague idea of what gets booted,

Going back to  programme it showed Jackie Edwards. Original is expensive and even legit re-issue from 70's seems to be £40+ [see Discogs]. so £8-10 is a bargain if you're looking at getting a copy cheap.

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1 hour ago, Modernsoulsucks said:

As I said they're buying what they like without spending large sums.

Tbh I've only a vague idea of what gets booted,

Going back to  programme it showed Jackie Edwards. Original is expensive and even legit re-issue from 70's seems to be £40+ [see Discogs]. so £8-10 is a bargain if you're looking at getting a copy cheap.

I am horrified that people are excusing bootlegs and I hope other people will agree...it can't be anything surely but a disgrace

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Posted

I hope you don't mean me.

I'm explaining why in the main some people buy bootlegs.

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Posted

back from Feb 2019, interesting video but I guess this topic is about something else now

 

 

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Posted
On 27/11/2019 at 14:34, Agent45 said:

Any ideas for watching this outside of the UK? 

"BBC iPlayer only works in the UK. Sorry, it’s due to rights issues."

Use a VPN- you can download and use one for a small sum annually, it'll then allow you to fake your IP location to any country.

We watch Italian/French TV all the time by this means and we'll probably use it for watching British TV from wherever we retire to later.

 

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Posted

I have to say I don't understand why anyone would buy a boot deliberately just because it's cheap.

The sound quality is almost always absolutely dire, you can't play them out at any self respecting venue (certainly not a OV venue) and if you only want the track for home use why not download it/ get it on CD?

 

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Posted

Timbo the knowledge and the passion are not there, believe me. You see people that go to gigs who just want to have the sounds to play at home and their own gigs, and will buy them on whatever format is cheapest. No different to the 70s really when "Colin Bee" and others were pushing out everything possible at £1.25 and the casuals were lapping them all up.

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Posted (edited)

You can't generalise really, Steve.

The guy with 500 boots, plus legit releases and cheaper originals probably has a passion to own what he likes. I can understand that more than say those I've met over the years who tell me they don't buy records. 

And Timbo, I guess a lot of these people are older so vinyl is their preferred medium on which to listen to music. I have some CDs but they tend to be those featuring unreleased tracks like the Motown series. I look on CDs as the 2019 equivalent of the C90 cassette - I've got the track "on tape" but I've not really got it in my collection.

I have no idea how prevalent buying boots to play out is. I read about it on here but I'd have thought most were purchased for home use.

Edited by Modernsoulsucks

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Posted

I understand what you are saying Rod, I am afraid I see a lot of people playing boots out.

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Posted

Don't think we are that stupid,we know what we buy,and have been doin it for years,and the reason is,you have record collector,/sellers,who ask for your mortgage,for a piece of 7inch vinyl,I am all for original I collect it for myself,at a price I can afford,with out being ripped of by these sellers who just pull a price out of thin air,then wait for a mug to buy it,so it's a bit of both in my book,so if you can't afford an original,you get what you can afford,a boot,or issue,pressing etc, which is probably sold by the same collector who is selling an original,and as long as it puts people on the floor,to some they don't care less if it's tape,cd,boot, issue,pressing, original,as long as they are having a good time,they who cares,only the guys who want top dollar,for there rareties,

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Posted
1 hour ago, Usedtobemygirl said:

Don't think we are that stupid,we know what we buy,and have been doin it for years,and the reason is,you have record collector,/sellers,who ask for your mortgage,for a piece of 7inch vinyl,I am all for original I collect it for myself,at a price I can afford,with out being ripped of by these sellers who just pull a price out of thin air,then wait for a mug to buy it,so it's a bit of both in my book,so if you can't afford an original,you get what you can afford,a boot,or issue,pressing etc, which is probably sold by the same collector who is selling an original,and as long as it puts people on the floor,to some they don't care less if it's tape,cd,boot, issue,pressing, original,as long as they are having a good time,they who cares,only the guys who want top dollar,for there rareties,

I care.  If you play out and can't afford an original, buy a different original that you can afford. That way we won't have everyone playing the same tune. 

- Kev

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Posted
2 hours ago, Kevinkent said:

I care.  If you play out and can't afford an original, buy a different original that you can afford. That way we won't have everyone playing the same tune. 

- Kev

Thats my point,who can afford originals,and why buy an original we can afford,if its not what we want,and yes i do care,but vinyl prices have gone to the stupidness,so who's to blame, certainly not people like me or my soulie mates,who are not prepared to be stitched up,anyway where we come from the venues play handbag and cheapies,it works,and at the end of the day,the paying punter has had a good night,regardless 

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Posted
28 minutes ago, Usedtobemygirl said:

Thats my point,who can afford originals

originals of what? what are these rip off sounds? if top 500 stuff loads have been legit re-issued

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1 hour ago, Usedtobemygirl said:

Thats my point,who can afford originals,and why buy an original we can afford,if its not what we want,and yes i do care,but vinyl prices have gone to the stupidness,so who's to blame, certainly not people like me or my soulie mates,who are not prepared to be stitched up,anyway where we come from the venues play handbag and cheapies,it works,and at the end of the day,the paying punter has had a good night,regardless 

If you can afford £10-30 boots, you can afford originals.

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Steve G said:

If you can afford £10-30 boots, you can afford originals.

There are 100s of em, the can’t afford the originals excuse is just bollox 

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Posted (edited)

Sure there are plenty of punters (dare I even say the majority at many places?) who'll not care if the record they're appreciating at a venue is original vinyl, official issue vinyl, fake vinyl, cd, mp3 or cassette! (in that order sliding scale I should imagine too).

BUT

There are plenty of travelling soul fans (by which I mean getting in  your car and driving an hour or more -I know that's a shock to some -but many, like me, have to travel at least 30 miles to go to a pukka venue, my own club excluded, natch)  who DO care very much and frankly if a venue wasn't, at the very least, playing genuine vinyl (legitimate re-issues) I would feel distinctly cheated -seriously I would, and I can include all of the crowd we meet up with at these places too.

One of the overwhelming reasons we decide to go to a new venue (to us) is because we want to support what they're doing in the hope they'll do the same for us in return, few of these choices are made because there's nowhere else we want to go to -so you're burning your bridges by making such choices and that heightens the disappointment of course.

I've actually walked out of these places and let the promotor know why before now, sure most shrug their shoulders and point to the full dance floor, but it's the same as a dodgy market trader pointing to his bulging wallet to me -a total sham carried out increasingly by people who'd rather make money from fakery than provide a genuine product.

I know some take the piss -but's that why I'll defend the rights to any promoter to put 'ovo' or 'vinyl only' on their flyers/adverts, whilst I agree the default should be OVO, there are too many bandwagon jumpers to enable the poor sod choosing where to go to have a fair choice, be honest -if it's vinyl only say so, if you're going to play ska -say so, if it's got no dance floor -say so! 

Those that care can thank you and go elsewhere, those that don't care can enjoy the company of like minded individuals.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Timbo58
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51 minutes ago, Timbo58 said:

Sure there are plenty of punters (dare I even say the majority at many places?) who'll not care if the record they're appreciating at a venue is original vinyl, official issue vinyl, fake vinyl, cd, mp3 or cassette! (in that order sliding scale I should imagine too).

BUT

There are plenty of travelling soul fans (by which I mean getting in  your car and driving an hour or more -I know that's a shock to some -but many, like me, have to travel at least 30 miles to go to a pukka venue, my own club excluded, natch)  who DO care very much and frankly if a venue wasn't, at the very least, playing genuine vinyl (legitimate re-issues) I would feel distinctly cheated -seriously I would, and I can include all of the crowd we meet up with at these places too.

One of the overwhelming reasons we decide to go to a new venue (to us) is because we want to support what they're doing in the hope they'll do the same for us in return, few of these choices are made because there's nowhere else we want to go to -so you're burning your bridges by making such choices and that heightens the disappointment of course.

I've actually walked out of these places and let the promotor know why before now, sure most shrug their shoulders and point to the full dance floor, but it's the same as a dodgy market trader pointing to his bulging wallet to me -a total sham carried out increasingly by people who'd rather make money from fakery than provide a genuine product.

I know some take the piss -but's that why I'll defend the rights to any promoter to put 'ovo' or 'vinyl only' on their flyers/adverts, whilst I agree the default should be OVO, there are too many bandwagon jumpers to enable the poor sod choosing where to go to have a fair choice, be honest -if it's vinyl only say so, if you're going to play ska -say so, if it's got no dance floor -say so! 

Those that care can thank you and go elsewhere, those that don't care can enjoy the company of like minded individuals.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you,we also support local venues,and also travel,i also agree,with the vinyl only policy,but poeple want a night out,without the politics involved,and as for chalky yes there are plenty of originals out there cheap,but they are the ones weve had in our box for years or nobody wants and plays,turley richards,the ballads,the enchanters,etc are the tunes the collectors want stupid money for,so the cheap way is a carver,issue etc,not  very nice to someone whos just paid top dollar,then sees an issue for nowt,my wife bought me jackie wilsons it only happens £185 only to find carvers and issues for under a tena,shit happens,sellers have been doin it for years,some greedy,some genuine,its all down to one thing,MONEY

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Posted

I was shocked to see things like Jimmy Mack being faked (as opposed to the old bootlegs, which are easy to spot). It would be good to build a data base of known fakes and what to watch for. 

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Posted

Almost an impossible task Steve - Things like the Jimmy Mack may well be an old "Soul Galore" pressing doctored with colour printed labels to fool the unwary - That's a little cottage industry for some. When you factor in the custom carver business, it's a minefield.

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Posted

This has been going on for the entirety of the scene. Bootlegs, carver, pressing, reissue, copy's, call them what you will. It's the scene & you'll never stop it as there are millions around. 

It's something we have to live with....

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Posted

John Manship hit the nail on the head above saying if you want to make  sure you are buying originals buy from reputable dealers , you may pay a bit more but better that than only to find out later you bought a boot.

As for the buying of boots for home listening with the amount of legit re- released vinyl and thousands of great CD compilations there is just no need.

 

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Posted
37 minutes ago, Shinehead said:

John Manship hit the nail on the head above saying if you want to make  sure you are buying originals buy from reputable dealers , you may pay a bit more but better that than only to find out later you bought a boot.

As for the buying of boots for home listening with the amount of legit re- released vinyl and thousands of great CD compilations there is just no need.

 

Agree 100%.

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Posted (edited)

Plus, it's fun acquiring a little bit of knowledge - or ask a clued up friend - to help you buy some low-cost genuine originals when you are out and about at venues.

Just as an example, in the sales boxes I took out to a soul night on Saturday there were maybe a hundred or more originals in the £10 to £30 price range. Moreover, there are plenty of other collectors who do the same, so there is a lot of choice.

And as Steve G and Chalky pointed out above, there are loads of great records out there for that price - classics, underplayed, and sometimes even quite rare quality items.

Edited by Peter Richer
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Posted
16 hours ago, Usedtobemygirl said:

Thats my point,who can afford originals,and why buy an original we can afford,if its not what we want,and yes i do care,but vinyl prices have gone to the stupidness,so who's to blame, certainly not people like me or my soulie mates,who are not prepared to be stitched up,anyway where we come from the venues play handbag and cheapies,it works,and at the end of the day,the paying punter has had a good night,regardless 

I'd say Northern soul on original labels are relatively cheap compared to the 70"s values.

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Posted

I may be mistaken, but we do seem to have this debate on the run up to Christmas every year on Soul Source! 😊

For me, it's very simple. There is no pleasure or pride in owning/playing a fake or bootleg. However, holding an original piece of rare vinyl in your hand (regardless of monetary value) is a great feeling. Northern Soul is so much more than having 'a good night on a full dancefloor'.

It may seem a bit sad, but one of my favourite moments was when Ted Massey allowed me the privilege of handling his copy of George Pepp after he played it at the Station Hotel in Dudley in 1998. I've never forgotten it!

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1 hour ago, Soul16 said:

I may be mistaken, but we do seem to have this debate on the run up to Christmas every year on Soul Source! 😊

For me, it's very simple. There is no pleasure or pride in owning/playing a fake or bootleg. However, holding an original piece of rare vinyl in your hand (regardless of monetary value) is a great feeling. Northern Soul is so much more than having 'a good night on a full dancefloor'.

It may seem a bit sad, but one of my favourite moments was when Ted Massey allowed me the privilege of handling his copy of George Pepp after he played it at the Station Hotel in Dudley in 1998. I've never forgotten it!

And I tried to persuade him to let me buy it...........nooooooooo chance

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On 01/12/2019 at 09:25, Timbo58 said:

I have to say I don't understand why anyone would buy a boot deliberately just because it's cheap.

The sound quality is almost always absolutely dire, you can't play them out at any self respecting venue (certainly not a OV venue) and if you only want the track for home use why not download it/ get it on CD?

 

Exactly, a lot of rare stuff is now readily available legally in other formats especially CD and is the best route to go if you cannot afford to buy the  original 45 

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Posted
11 hours ago, Usedtobemygirl said:

I agree with you,we also support local venues,and also travel,i also agree,with the vinyl only policy,but poeple want a night out,without the politics involved,and as for chalky yes there are plenty of originals out there cheap,but they are the ones weve had in our box for years or nobody wants and plays,turley richards,the ballads,the enchanters,etc are the tunes the collectors want stupid money for,so the cheap way is a carver,issue etc,not  very nice to someone whos just paid top dollar,then sees an issue for nowt,my wife bought me jackie wilsons it only happens £185 only to find carvers and issues for under a tena,shit happens,sellers have been doin it for years,some greedy,some genuine,its all down to one thing,MONEY

Why is it that so many people get into collecting & just want copies of records that have already gone big on the scene ? You've just said about a prime example - Turley Richards. That was just a cheap record for donkeys years. As it was only about 10 to fifteen quid I bought 4 copies, played one & sat on 3 to sell if it ever went up, because I thought it was not a bad record for the price.

So why not listen to the records that are still relatively affordable that haven't gone big. We only got to listen to a lot of these on tape swaps, but now we've got youtube. Like Steve G said in an earlier post, if you can afford to pay £10 to £30 on a boot or carver you can buy originals.

Just thought of another brilliant little record, Curtis Smith - Livin End. I bought 8 copies for two quid each off a dealer, it now makes 50 quid. Rather than buying 2 or 3 boots, buy a copy of that before it becomes another Turley Richards. Oh sorry, perhaps we'd better wait until a big named dj plays it & it sells for £600, then we can moan about the stupid price it makes.

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Posted
14 minutes ago, Pottsy said:

So why not listen to the records that are still relatively affordable that haven't gone big.

Richard Searling's latest radio show is more or less dedicated to this, records he believes are currently under the radar but might go big in next year or so, I posted a few YT clips of some of them on the audio list section

good call on the Curtis Smith - Livin End, cracker

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Posted

Some of the most respected people on the rare soul scene have in the past been "involved" directly in bootlegs and that's a fact, 

In some cases it may be the loan of in demand records for dubbing or actual commissioning & manufacture or distribution of product,

I am not saying this makes them bad people as such, many of the individuals have later gone "legit" in the business,

There is no secret about this its all in the public domain,

I think personally if somebody pays over the odds for record (boot)

They have only themselves to blame, due to lack of research & asking the correct questions.

And don't forget this works both ways when buying what is perceived as a boot or second issue when the seller is unaware that it is in fact an rare original.

Lastly if somebody buys a box of old 70's pressings for a fiver each and sells them for £10, £20 or £40 each does that make them robbing bast@rds in my opinion it doesn't.

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I've got around 400 soul 45s. 90% originals and some legit reissues.  I have never been in the position to afford records that cost hundreds or thousands of pounds but I've still got a nice little collection of 45s that cost me between a fiver and around 40 quid.  No excuse to buy bootlegs.

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4 hours ago, Biggordy said:

I've got around 400 soul 45s. 90% originals and some legit reissues.  I have never been in the position to afford records that cost hundreds or thousands of pounds but I've still got a nice little collection of 45s that cost me between a fiver and around 40 quid.  No excuse to buy bootlegs.

Exactly right, there is so much good ignored and affordable soul music out there. To me buying boots just shows a lack of imagination. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Steve G said:

Exactly right, there is so much good ignored and affordable soul music out there. To me buying boots just shows a lack of imagination. 

The people buying bootlegs who know that they are, are are just supporting a money pot for con people

We must remember the poor souls who though (younger or not enough knowledge) who are easily duped (like I was 40 years ago) and it's a big lesson to learn (in some cases)

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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Posted

Hi People,

I have been watching the thread with some interest and I am truly amazed with the high horse nature of some of the comments.

I can tell you now that virtually everybody on this site unwittingly or not will have some form of bootleg in their box because they have been around since the mid-seventies.

I recently was asked to look through a 3000 record collection by a guy who swore blindly that every one was pukka (by the way I traded records for a living for over 20 years during the 70s and 80s) and over 150 of the records were American or cottage industry Brit fakes. Needless to say he was horrified.

I have just this week seen a Curtis - How Can I tell her sold for £250 (it was obviously a fake) but had come from the Philly original magnetic tape master and sounded superb.

If people think that every record they hear at events are pukka then they are in cloud cuckoo land I can tell you now that at least 20% on most nights are not.

There will be some empty dance floors if everybody only dances to originals.

This is 2019 - we need to get into the real world because the days of virgin vinyl are long gone !!!

Mitch.

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Posted

I can’t deny it, I have maybe 30 or so bootlegs (stored separately from my collection of originals, in order to avoid any cross-contamination😊), they’re all from the 1970’s when that was the only way of being able to listen to the music at home, either due to lack of access to, or inability to afford certain rare originals.

The world has moved on, the Internet gives access to everyone that has the means to buy originals, but not only that, you can listen via streaming services, no need to clutter your house up with fake pieces of vinyl. Clearly, the Internet has also created a marketplace for ever more bootlegs for those that feel the need to buy such things. Given that Northern Soul is now quite trendy, there is of course a large customer base for bootleg 45s.

As for the dancers, I’ve no doubt that some couldn’t care less about the medium from which the music is being played - that’s not what it’s about for some - they just want to go out and enjoy themselves, which is fine for them I guess. Northern Soul is the perfect vehicle for the over 50s and 60s to go out and let their hair down (if they’re lucky enough to have any). For now, I prefer to stay in and wash mine.

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Your last four lines have hit the nail on the head,soul16,life's to short let's enjoy it  while we can,now where was I,oh yes,playing my boots,(just kidding soulies,lol)

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3 hours ago, Soul16 said:

I can’t deny it, I have maybe 30 or so bootlegs (stored separately from my collection of originals, in order to avoid any cross-contamination😊), they’re all from the 1970’s when that was the only way of being able to listen to the music at home, either due to lack of access to, or inability to afford certain rare originals.

The world has moved on, the Internet gives access to everyone that has the means to buy originals, but not only that, you can listen via streaming services, no need to clutter your house up with fake pieces of vinyl. Clearly, the Internet has also created a marketplace for ever more bootlegs for those that feel the need to buy such things. Given that Northern Soul is now quite trendy, there is of course a large customer base for bootleg 45s.

As for the dancers, I’ve no doubt that some couldn’t care less about the medium from which the music is being played - that’s not what it’s about for some - they just want to go out and enjoy themselves, which is fine for them I guess. Northern Soul is the perfect vehicle for the over 50s and 60s to go out and let their hair down (if they’re lucky enough to have any). For now, I prefer to stay in and wash mine.

Was under the opinion the dancers travelled round the country to hear & dance to there favourite tunes , following certain DJs who had A certain record , they certainly don’t sound the same in A 2 up 2 down bed sit in Clapham as they do in An empress ballroom , 

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16 minutes ago, hornet said:

Was under the opinion the dancers travelled round the country to hear & dance to there favourite tunes , following certain DJs who had A certain record , they certainly don’t sound the same in A 2 up 2 down bed sit in Clapham as they do in An empress ballroom , 

That's how it used to be back in the day for sure. It still is for the more discerning of course.

Sadly, with all the dodgy bootlegs that are apparently getting played out, it seems you don't need to travel anymore to hear your favourite tunes if you don't care about the format.

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15 hours ago, Usedtobemygirl said:

Your last four lines have hit the nail on the head,soul16,life's to short let's enjoy it  while we can,now where was I,oh yes,playing my boots,(just kidding soulies,lol)

Life’s not too short, play your boots but advertise the fact.  I do not want to travel anywhere and pay good money to hear a fake Dj.  I don’t pay with monopoly money so I expect the real thing.  

If you cannot do it right then go back into the hole you crawled out of, more than enough Djs out there who can do it right.  By buying boots you are supporting crime and depriving people out of their rightful dues, licence and rights owners, artists, somgwriters etc.

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Nobody does their cause any favours by claiming the artists miraculously recieve money when vinyls are exchanged between dealers and collectors.

There isn't a serious singer, musician or producer on the planet who thinks CDs are in any way less valid, authentic or worthy than vinyls were in their day. On the contrary, they want you to buy their CDs and go and watch them live as the only chances they have of ever getting paid.

Once they've gone, - and most of them already have - they want your kids to stream it and your descendants to implant it directly into their brains so they can listen with perfect sound quality just by thinking about it.

They don't want this music - an artform, in its own way comparable to classical music and jazz - to become nothing more than insipid nostalgia for a few people, most of whom weren't even there. The people who made the decision it has to be vinyls have a vested interest in maintaining them, because they have lots of them and probably make money from them, just like the bootleggers did.

Collecting vinyls, or any memorabilia, is a perfectly good hobby, but the vinyls community - still miniscule, despite mammoth campaigns over several years by the record companies and the media - is not about being a music fan, so nobody who would rather play or listen to rubbish on vinyls than the best music in existence on any other format should not mistake themselves for soul fans.

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, stevesilktulip said:

Nobody does their cause any favours by claiming the artists miraculously recieve money when vinyls are exchanged between dealers and collectors.

There isn't a serious singer, musician or producer on the planet who thinks CDs are in any way less valid, authentic or worthy than vinyls were in their day. On the contrary, they want you to buy their CDs and go and watch them live as the only chances they have of ever getting paid.

Once they've gone, - and most of them already have - they want your kids to stream it and your descendants to implant it directly into their brains so they can listen with perfect sound quality just by thinking about it.

They don't want this music - an artform, in its own way comparable to classical music and jazz - to become nothing more than insipid nostalgia for a few people, most of whom weren't even there. The people who made the decision it has to be vinyls have a vested interest in maintaining them, because they have lots of them and probably make money from them, just like the bootleggers did.

Collecting vinyls, or any memorabilia, is a perfectly good hobby, but the vinyls community - still miniscule, despite mammoth campaigns over several years by the record companies and the media - is not about being a music fan, so nobody who would rather play or listen to rubbish on vinyls than the best music in existence on any other format should not mistake themselves for soul fans.

 

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many would be truly passionate about soul if they didn't collect? Maybe the passion is for collecting records rather than music in many cases. 

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Sorry but can't be taking serious anyone who refers to records as "Vinyls" ... :no:  :no:  :no:  :no:

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7 hours ago, WoodButcher said:

Sorry but can't be taking serious anyone who refers to records as "Vinyls" ... :no:  :no:  :no:  :no:

Think he makes some very valid points and you shouldn't be put of with the terminology. Though, I too, can't  tolerate anyone who calls refers to records as..... Can't say it. 🤯😤

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