Playing boots in the 21st Century...

[Mike]

Playing boots  in the 21st Century...

A subject that often comes up under various titles, guises, be it ovo, politics, formats, soul police etc etc

As the set up of this 'members only forum' is a bit more deliberate, it may allow a bit of decent discussion on such topics while avoiding some of the pitfalls that have had in the past when visiting this topic, thought may as well give this and similar topics a go

As long as people take in and follow the below

Quote

 

Respect other members

Do not insult or personally attack another member.

You do not have the right to attack someone for having an opinion other than your own.

If someone disagrees with you, they're entitled to provided they do it respectfully

 

Playing boots  in the 21st Century...

A subject that often comes up under various titles, guises, be it ovo, politics, formats, soul police etc etc

Own personal view in 2020 is play what you want, where you want and how you want but ffs quit the moaning if/when your choices get commented/criticised, after all the success of your spot/event/venue is always gonna reflect that choice, if you do go for the low quality/cost option then that's what you will be delivering....

Playing boots  in the 21st Century... whats your thoughts/views/take ?

 

 

 

 

[Gardens]

Mike

My take on this is straight forward, many followers of our wonderful scene simply cannot afford to pay some of the exorbitant prices that some records nowadays demand. So on that note if they are buying boots,dodgy reissues carvers whatever you want to call them for their own personnel use, in other words in their house for private enjoyment then fine.

However as a DJ and collector I take offence to someone at a gig Im djaying at playing a boot of a record I was about to play when they have paid peanuts compared to the several hundreds I may have forked out.

 

 

[davidwapples]

It's a tricky question but will give it a go.

People go to northern soul nights to hear records they like , the more they like the better the night is for them so they are likely to attend again and tell others so increasing the numbers to keep the event going , it doesn't matter if they hear it off a boot , reissue etc

I have seen some top dj's from back in the day play from cds , Colin Curtis , Kev Roberts Brian Rea etc and the floor was full .

One dj I know has a massive collection of tunes , all the greats and has played at all the large events but he includes one record in his set usually that packs the floor but it is not an original , very few people know this and even less seem to care , he said he can not get an original as its very rare £3k but has the means to get one should it come up , I only found out as I went to ask if he would play the flipside for me and saw it was on a carver. It is the only non original I have ever seen him play in 15 or so years.

It seems that the ones who moan about it either want their shot at djing and can't get a booking or are people who want to keep djing themselves and dont want other people coming in stealing slots .

 

I also think that the over pricing of records does not help , what is worse a dj playing a £10 boot of a £100 record or a dj playing the original of the £100 that he has just had to pay £250+ to a dealer for.

 

Nobody needs to play bootlegs but nobody wants to see an empty dancefloor or have to pay a fortune for 2 and a half minutes of sound on a 7"single  , is it just being lazy and not finding your own originals?

People will play what they want , sometimes try to deceive others with look a likes , promoters wont mind if numbers are high and dancefloor is full.

Obviously there are a few events that you wouldn't expect boots to be played at , those like the 100 club with good reputations but if its a reunion of an event from 40 years ago and people want the original djs , some may not still have the tracks played then as musical taste and situations change

[Julianb]

4 hours ago, davidwapples said:

It's a tricky question but will give it a go.

People go to northern soul nights to hear records they like , the more they like the better the night is for them so they are likely to attend again and tell others so increasing the numbers to keep the event going , it doesn't matter if they hear it off a boot , reissue etc

I have seen some top dj's from back in the day play from cds , Colin Curtis , Kev Roberts Brian Rea etc and the floor was full .

One dj I know has a massive collection of tunes , all the greats and has played at all the large events but he includes one record in his set usually that packs the floor but it is not an original , very few people know this and even less seem to care , he said he can not get an original as its very rare £3k but has the means to get one should it come up , I only found out as I went to ask if he would play the flipside for me and saw it was on a carver. It is the only non original I have ever seen him play in 15 or so years.

It seems that the ones who moan about it either want their shot at djing and can't get a booking or are people who want to keep djing themselves and dont want other people coming in stealing slots .

 

I also think that the over pricing of records does not help , what is worse a dj playing a £10 boot of a £100 record or a dj playing the original of the £100 that he has just had to pay £250+ to a dealer for.

 

Nobody needs to play bootlegs but nobody wants to see an empty dancefloor or have to pay a fortune for 2 and a half minutes of sound on a 7"single  , is it just being lazy and not finding your own originals?

People will play what they want , sometimes try to deceive others with look a likes , promoters wont mind if numbers are high and dancefloor is full.

Obviously there are a few events that you wouldn't expect boots to be played at , those like the 100 club with good reputations but if its a reunion of an event from 40 years ago and people want the original djs , some may not still have the tracks played then as musical taste and situations change

I can think of a few original  DJs who didn't have the originals 45s  40 years ago!!!!

[Steviehay]

16 hours ago, Julianb said:

I can think of a few original  DJs who didn't have the originals 45s  40 years ago!!!!

excellent points and agree

[Soulman58]

I am sure the majority of members brought boots at some point in the distant past.  Did I ever worry what was being played in what format when I started clubbing, absolutely not, not sure I even knew what they were.  However, opinions change over time, though for me the important thing has always been whether I like what i'm listening to, so I would always personally prefer a boot I loved, over an original sound worth £2K which I wouldn't give the time of day for.  

I also wonder whether the scene would have become as big as it did without boots, you can argue if that is a good or bad thing.

In the end it comes back to, to each his own, respect your neighbour's opinions and remember it's what's in the grooves that counts.

All of the above would change if I thought that a percentage of the price paid made its way back to the artists concerned.

Stay soulful and stay safe.

 

[Mike]

12 minutes ago, Dexter said:

As has been said above. Punters go to hear the music and dance and I for one could not care less if the record was a boot or not.

welcome to the site

I'd say that's fair enough if talking about a local event, but if you travelled say a 100 or so odd miles for the event wouldn't you want (or deserve or expect) the best sounds for your hard earned bucks and efforts.. I would

 

[Soulman58]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

welcome to the site

I'd say that's fair enough if talking about a local event, but if you travelled say a 100 or so odd miles for the event wouldn't you want (or deserve or expect) the best sounds for your hard earned bucks and efforts. I would

 

I think that may be the crux Mike, though I could be wrong, as I haven't been to an event for eons.   I feel that the average soul fan probably wouldn't (well prior to the lockdown) consider travelling a 100 miles, unless for a weekender these days. And that is probably where the difference in opinion kicks in to a degree, in that the avid collector/fan is still prepared to travel and wants to hear something they wouldn't hear everywhere else whereas most are happy to go local listen to whatever is played.  

 

[Guest]

Oh dear! I've gotten into so many arguments, and had so many warnings, about this topic. But here's my take on things, for the umpteenth time. And far briefer than usually!

Bottom line is, it doesn't bloody matter! Whether its 1974 or 2021. The sound is what's important, not the sodding label or format.

Now, if you're a collector, then fine, you want the original issues. If you're a DJ however, you only have one job, and thats to fill the floor, keep it full, and send the punters home smiling, laughing, and happy. The problem is that the lines have been blurred. Too many wannabe DJs, who have spent incredibly high amounts of money accumulating a top notch collection, busily waving their willies via the video screen behind them, whilst shouting "look at me, look at me".

Many, many years ago, back in the early days of the scene, I also DJd. No, not big time, but locally at soul nights, and also a couple of times at Samanthas. I sometimes played boots and emidiscs. Go on, shoot me for it. Not only that, but just about all of the top DJs at the time did the same. Including one or two of todays god-like figures. I know this for a fact, as I sold the bloody things to them.

The scene was always about the sounds and the dancing. NOT how much money a sound was worth. I would always prefer a night when every sound was danceable, albeit on boots or CDs etc., than watching everyone sat on their arses bored to tears by DJs playing £5K rarities that are, basically, undanceable garbage.

The finest DJ this scene has ever had, bar none, was the late Martyn Ellis. Martyn never played his own records, as he never had a bloody collection! He didn't care what the format was, original, boot, emidisc, reissue, whatever. What he DID do, was keep a floor filled, and usually lift the bloody roof off the building. That is all a DJ should do, end of story. 

[Soul16]

In brief, if I’m a paying customer at a proper Northern Soul event, I would expect to be served up original vinyl only. 

Originals look better, feel better, sound better and are better. All in my humble opinion of course.

In the same way, if I go to a steakhouse, I expect to be served up beef and not horse meat.

[Monny1916]

What would you class as a proper northern soul event ,, Stephen 

[Soul16]

1 minute ago, Monny1916 said:

What would you class as a proper northern soul event ,, Stephen 

Any NS event that you pay on the door, that doesn’t also advertise itself as including other genres like Ska etc. I wouldn’t necessarily expect original vinyl only at a multi-genre event.

For me, it’s just a case of trying to maintain certain standards. Again, all in my humble opinion.

I’ve been involved in this debate on numerous occasions before, so I think I’ll leave it there. 

[Mike]

posts by fake account dropped

[Mike]

14 hours ago, Joey said:

Oh dear! I've gotten into so many arguments, and had so many warnings, about this topic. But here's my take on things, for the umpteenth time. And far briefer than usually!

Nah, the only 'warnings/advice' you have had on here on boots is when you were banging on about ovo in non-related topics 

Quote

Bottom line is, it doesn't bloody matter! Whether its 1974 or 2021. The sound is what's important, not the sodding label or format.

Once you start hitting factors such as legality,  then could argue that it does matter to a certain degree

Quote

Now, if you're a collector, then fine, you want the original issues. If you're a DJ however, you only have one job, and thats to fill the floor, keep it full, and send the punters home smiling, laughing, and happy. The problem is that the lines have been blurred. Too many wannabe DJs, who have spent incredibly high amounts of money accumulating a top notch collection, busily waving their willies via the video screen behind them, whilst shouting "look at me, look at me".

Many, many years ago, back in the early days of the scene, I also DJd. No, not big time, but locally at soul nights, and also a couple of times at Samanthas. I sometimes played boots and emidiscs. Go on, shoot me for it. Not only that, but just about all of the top DJs at the time did the same. Including one or two of todays god-like figures. I know this for a fact, as I sold the bloody things to them.

The scene was always about the sounds and the dancing. NOT how much money a sound was worth. I would always prefer a night when every sound was danceable, albeit on boots or CDs etc., than watching everyone sat on their arses bored to tears by DJs playing £5K rarities that are, basically, undanceable garbage.

The finest DJ this scene has ever had, bar none, was the late Martyn Ellis. Martyn never played his own records, as he never had a bloody collection! He didn't care what the format was, original, boot, emidisc, reissue, whatever. What he DID do, was keep a floor filled, and usually lift the bloody roof off the building. That is all a DJ should do, end of story. 

Above for me all comes overs all a bit early 70s based, wasn't there myself back then so a bit hard to comment on your take, though would disagree with some of the points you have raised. Such as your take on the job of a dj, plus didn't records get dropped from major events once booted back then as well? Also wasn't there's all the negative vibes on boots in the publications of the day or was that just later on

Certainly from my own experiences things/attitudes were different from 1976 onwards, but guess like a lot of these 'takes' from back then the person next to me in the queue may (and more than likely) have a different take of things

Anyway back to 2020.. any more views on playing boots in 2020?

Edited April 27, 2020 by Mike
tidy

[Kev Cane]

Yes Mike, remember clearly, as soon as a record was "Pressed" the aura and appeal for the relevant 45 all but disappeared 

Kev 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

Nah, the only 'warnings/advice' you have had on here on boots is when you were banging on about ovo in non-related topics 

Once you start hitting factors such as legality,  then could argue that it does matter to a certain degree

Above for me all comes overs all a bit early 70s based, wasn't there myself back then so a bit hard to comment on your take, though would disagree with some of the points you have raised. Such as your take on the job of a dj, plus didn't records get dropped from major events once booted back then as well? Also wasn't there's all the negative vibes on boots in the publications of the day or was that just later on

Certainly from my own experiences things/attitudes were different from 1976 onwards, but guess like a lot of these 'takes' from back then the person next to me in the queue may (and more than likely) have a different take of things

Anyway back to 2020.. any more views on playing boots in 2020?

Yes, I most certainly have gotten into far too much trouble regarding this topic. Don't for one moment think this is the only place I have been involved in this discussion/argument!

And of course my main points of view were influenced by the early 70's. Thats when I was on the scene, before leaving it behind for a while. This topic, along with one or two others, is actually why I joined this site. I'd been lurking for a while and saw far too many untruths and myths being posted. The one about sounds being dropped when booted is one of them. Maybe Levine did, but certainly not many others. Back then, I cant recall a single tune being consigned to the bin after being booted to be honest. In fact, the bootleggers at the time were so "on the ball" that tunes were being pressed up almost the same weekend as they were being played for the first time. One or two people who are well known, and even highly thought of nowadays, were heavily involved in this. As were several top DJs at the time. Only too happy to press up a few emidiscs and flog them for two quid apiece. Some even took orders. You could choose which two top sounds to have on them! It was rife, believe me. You even had people selling C60 cassettes of the current big sounds, and if top line DJs weren't responsible for providing the masters, I really don't know who was.

The job of a DJ? Its as I said, nothing more, nothing less. We could argue about it til the end of time, and I wouldn't change my view. I don't need to be educated by a DJ. I just want him to keep the floor full, and the atmosphere electric. If he cant do that, I may as well be sat at home listening to the radio. Some DJs were also the discoverers of great sounds. Some weren't. Again, Martyn Ellis was head and shoulders above the rest at the time. No-one could energise a place like he did. The main problem today, is that far too many so-called DJs are far too full of themselves. Its a case of "look at me and my wonderful collection". Problem is, most of these five figure rarities they're playing are undanceable. Its not just me with tis view, but many, many people. Just because a record is worth £5K doesn't mean its good, and doesn't mean it should be played and played and played, just because of rarity and value. If the current feelings regarding OVO had been in place between 1971 and 1974, trust me, we would never have had a scene for you to enjoy. Almost every single DJ at every single little soul club used boots, reissues, emidiscs and the like. You had to, because none could do what Levine was doing, in jetting off to the States all the time.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kev Cane said:

Yes Mike, remember clearly, as soon as a record was "Pressed" the aura and appeal for the relevant 45 all but disappeared 

Kev 

At the risk of offending, and given that the period I am speaking about was 71-74,  that is absolute rubbish. It may well have been the case later, once the scene had dramatically changed and the original attendees had left, but trust me, it most certainly was not the case in those formative years of the scene. As I have stated previously, only one or two high profile DJs could "break" new sounds back then. The overwhelming majority played stuff that was well known, well liked, and in many cases, had been booted. A typical night at The Pendulum between 72 and 74 would have found it rammed. No space on the dance floor, and everyone having a tremendous night. The sounds? Probably 90% had been booted by then. Maybe more. As late as 74, top sounds there were tunes such as the VelVets, Lynn Randell, Jerry Williams, Lenis Guess and the like, all of which had been booted numerous times. You only have to look at Chris Burtons OOTP series of boots from 73/74 to see what was being danced to at the time. Before that it was Chris King and his Soul Sounds series. Trust me, when he booted those thirty tunes, no-one stopped dancing to them. Half a bloody century later, Gene Chandlers "there was a time" is still one of the scenes biggest guaranteed floor fillers. Last time I looked, no-one had ceased dancing to the Velvets, Moses Smith, Duke Browner and Jackie Lee either, all of which had been well booted by then.

Mike, if youre reading this reply, it probably goes some way to explaining why I joined this site, and my comments about untruths and myths. You mentioned my views being coloured by my experiences in those early days. Kev's views, which are the same as many others, such as yourself, were probably influenced by the prevailing attitudes in later years. The problem is, those latter day views are seen by some as being applicable to the scene as a whole, from day one so to speak. If you weren't there, you cannot know what it was like. Post 1974/5, the scene was very different to the early days. And in so many ways. The whole issue surrounding boots etc. is just one topic. To those of us who attended in the early seventies, dancing to the tunes was paramount. Very little else mattered. Collecting rare records, on original labels, was something else entirely. The two activities, DJing and collecting, have become conflated over the years. And being one doesn't necessarily mean you're good at the other! I know I've mentioned it previously on other threads, but as well as DJing, I was also a serious collector back then. We didn't have too much knowledge about first and second issue of imports nor of look-a-like boots, so I only collected British. Plus the occasional imported LP, which we knew hadn't been booted. And this is where using boots instead of originals whilst DJing comes into the equation. Back then, the scene was very much like any coin. Two sides. In addition to the happy, smiling, everyone is everyones mates side, there was a very dark side also. Far darker than many would care to admit. Records were being stolen all the time, people were being rolled and robbed, ripped off, you name it. It made complete sense when DJing to play the likes of Hoagy Lands, Rufus Lumley, PP Arnold, Frankie and the Classicals, Bobby Paris and Sandy Wynns from boots, rather than take an enormous risk by having your Stateside, Immediate, Phillips, Polydor and Fontana copies with you.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Guest

[Jaco]

I agree with Kev. My experience of going mainly to the Mecca, was that tracks were dropped from the playlist once they were booted.

Levine, in particular, had enough sounds to keep the playlist fresh without having to resort to playing tracks that everybody could have for £1.

Just my memory of things at that time.

[Julianb]

In reply to Joey,  it was Jeff king who booted on Soul Sounds. He went to prison for it.

As soon as they were booted along with Chris Burton OOTP stuff and Simon Soussan many DJs stopped playing them (not all due to the demand to hear them) but many copies were still sold to the club goers, I know because I was buying wholesale from Chris and Twink was selling them for me and him at Wigan on a weekly basis. Don't forget at the time new tunes were being found on a weekly basis and people moved on to the 'latest tunes'.

I can honestly say that when I was DJing in the 1968 to 73 era, I  never played a bootleg. Still only play originals as well, so nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

In reply to Joey,  it was Jeff king who booted on Soul Sounds. He went to prison for it.

As soon as they were booted along with Chris Burton OOTP stuff and Simon Soussan many DJs stopped playing them (not all due to the demand to hear them) but many copies were still sold to the club goers, I know because I was buying wholesale from Chris and Twink was selling them for me and him at Wigan on a weekly basis. Don't forget at the time new tunes were being found on a weekly basis and people moved on to the 'latest tunes'.

I can honestly say that when I was DJing in the 1968 to 73 era, I  never played a bootleg. Still only play originals as well, so nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned

 

My bad. Of course it was Jeff and not Chris. Getting my Kings and Burtons mixed up. Wasn't it eighteen months he got? Just surprised that CB never went down for it. I did hear that the BPI tickled him, a week or so after he put that full page ad in B&S. 1974? Something to do with the Dusty Springfield disc? As for the selling off of the OOTP discs, didn't CB offload as many as he could at cut prices, after they'd contacted him? 

But besides the SS and OOTP boots, there were the many look-a-likes circulating. I remember many being sold in Ralphs Records Manchester, as well as ordinary record shops in Oldham. One shop even had a handwritten list of the latest "imports" on the door, which changed weekly. Bottom line was, none of them were kosher.

I don't want to name names here, as it would do absolutely no good at all, and only lead to yet more arguing and nastiness, (this topic has provided enough of that), but many, many DJs have used boots in the past. Even today, this is happening, but it seems to be OK if you call it a "carver", and have had it made privately in small batches.

Then we come to reissues, the playing of which is apparently now just as heinous a crime. How many current DJs are happy to play Levi Jackson on Columbia? All of them. But surely it's nothing more than a reissue, just a different artist name? Like playing Frankie and the Classicals on PyeDD. Just plain hypocrisy. 

My last word is this. we've been arguing about this subject for about fifty years now, with no sign of a resolution or consensus being reached. It never will be. We could argue another fifty years and we wouldn't put the subject to bed. Its a pointless exercise.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Guest

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Joey said:

My bad. Of course it was Jeff and not Chris. Getting my Kings and Burtons mixed up. Wasn't it eighteen months he got? Just surprised that CB never went down for it. I did hear that the BPI tickled him, a week or so after he put that full page ad in B&S. 1974? Something to do with the Dusty Springfield disc? As for the selling off of the OOTP discs, didn't CB offload as many as he could at cut prices, after they'd contacted him? 

But besides the SS and OOTP boots, there were the many look-a-likes circulating. I remember many being sold in Ralphs Records Manchester, as well as ordinary record shops in Oldham. One shop even had a handwritten list of the latest "imports" on the door, which changed weekly. Bottom line was, none of them were kosher.

I don't want to name names here, as it would do absolutely no good at all, and only lead to yet more arguing and nastiness, (this topic has provided enough of that), but many, many DJs have used boots in the past. Even today, this is happening, but it seems to be OK if you call it a "carver", and have had it made privately in small batches.

Then we come to reissues, the playing of which is apparently now just as heinous a crime. How many current DJs are happy to play Levi Jackson on Columbia? All of them. But surely it's nothing more than a reissue, just a different artist name? Like playing Frankie and the Classicals on PyeDD. Just plain hypocrisy. 

My last word is this. we've been arguing about this subject for about fifty years now, with no sign of a resolution or consensus being reached. It never will be. We could argue another fifty years and we wouldn't put the subject to bed. Its a pointless exercise.

don't really get your viewpoint Joey here

no ones arguing here, no nastiness, all fairly civil

was interesting hearing your views along with others of your time/era

 

anyway thanks for your input but I'd say no need to knock it on the head

back to the topic..

Quote

Playing boots  in the 21st Century... whats your thoughts/views/take ?

 

anyone else.... ?

 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, Mike said:

don't really get your viewpoint Joey here

no ones arguing here, no nastiness, all fairly civil

was interesting hearing your views along with others of your time/era

 

anyway thanks for your input but I'd say no need to knock it on the head

back to the topic..

 

anyone else.... ?

 

Sorry, probably didn't explain myself properly. Always an issue when tapping a keyboard instead of speaking face to face.

I should probably have used "debating" rather than arguing, at least as far as this thread is concerned. But trust me, at other times, and in other places, the arguments were truly legendary! 

And yes, it's all been very civil on this thread. The nastiness I spoke of would have been evident if certain people had been named, which I have absolutely no intention of doing! 

As for knocking it on the head, no, by all means keep it going. I just meant that I would be taking no further part in the debate. 

For now anyway

[Stevie]

I guess people can play what they like but at the end of the day if it's a boot there's no pride in ownership, no backstory to tracking it down, no heart racing when it drops through the letterbox. All a bit hollow really..

 

 

 

[Bbrich]

just a few points from me;

- pub type/free dos = no big deal

- paying events = i want to know what i'm getting for my money

- as a dj if you think its ok to play boots then you should be ok about making that public. 

- I dont think price/value comes into it as there is still the same number of each title (originals) out there to be played  (except v.rare newish discoveries perhaps) .

- yes most people want to hear/dance to records they know but in my experience they also appreciate it when they hear something new to them that they like.

- I dont think any decent dj would continue to play an expensive rarity if it always cleared the floor (ref an earlier point). and I dont think it is either play all well known or play only valuable rarities - a decent dj can mix all ends of the spectrum to suit the circumstances (including cheap originals!).

- it maybe comes down to how you view the world, logically its the sound that counts but the heart says it should be originals....

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by Bbrich

[Cunnie]

If I went into HMV & bought a DVD & got home & found a bootlegged disc in the case I'd not be very happy about having spent my money on it.
Same scenario goes for attending an event & them also playing bootlegs IMO.
Legitimate represses is another argument for another day.

[Timbo58]

No, we don't allow non legitimate releases either.

It's not about the 'soul police' - It's about being genuine & honest basically, with yourself and your audience.

I, as a promoter, want to treat people the same way I want when I travel anywhere -whether that's 10 miles or 1,000 miles - I want to be safe, comfortable, and get good value for money and a major part of that, to me, is not being cheated by misrepresentation.

That means if the flyer/advert states OVO I expect all records played, rare or common, cheap or expensive to be original 1st releases, no ifs or buts.

I don't expect to like them all or even agree they're all 'northern', and I fully expect (and want) to hear new sounds (to me), I like to be stretched in my ideas over soul music and to be reaching for a shazam and discogs lookup a few times a night!

Yes, I put a lot of money up front, my risk, I don't expect to make a profit -we never do as we plough anything back into making the club better, even if we did, frankly making £200ish profit for a hard nights work split between 6 people 'in the co-op' isn't the way to get rich!

I actually had some cheeky git looking in the (fairly full) cash box once -I pulled a load of paper out of my pocket and asked him if he'd like to see the receipts for the hall, flyers, guest DJ hotel & fees too! 

As for the promoter alone being responsible for what DJs play (residents or guests) I disagree, the person responsible is the person who puts the needle on the record and if the policy is OVO then that's clearly understood and as a DJ too, I wouldn't expect to get ask to play again for anything against that done intentionally.

I also understand the argument that an OVO event shouldn't even have to say OVO -but unfortunately how many reissue/bootleg/cd/mp3/anything goes events then are honest enough to say 'not playing OVO' on their adverts? That'll be none then, if they were THAT sure they were acting honestly with every punter then why not say so?

It would save the people who've just tried your event out rather than going to a pukka night elsewhere wasting their time and money and you can be assured you wouldn't get any 'soul police' 'chin strokers' so everyones a winner.

 

 

 

[Tomangoes]

When Eddie Foster dee da do was first played at the casino was it a Carver or one of the three? Or four with the test press..

How about other covered up super rare toons at the time?

Was I'm gone only played off the original for example when got plugged back in the day?

Ed

 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Timbo58 said:

No, we don't allow non legitimate releases either.

It's not about the 'soul police' - It's about being genuine & honest basically, with yourself and your audience.

I, as a promoter, want to treat people the same way I want when I travel anywhere -whether that's 10 miles or 1,000 miles - I want to be safe, comfortable, and get good value for money and a major part of that, to me, is not being cheated by misrepresentation.

That means if the flyer/advert states OVO I expect all records played, rare or common, cheap or expensive to be original 1st releases, no ifs or buts.

I don't expect to like them all or even agree they're all 'northern', and I fully expect (and want) to hear new sounds (to me), I like to be stretched in my ideas over soul music and to be reaching for a shazam and discogs lookup a few times a night!

Yes, I put a lot of money up front, my risk, I don't expect to make a profit -we never do as we plough anything back into making the club better, even if we did, frankly making £200ish profit for a hard nights work split between 6 people 'in the co-op' isn't the way to get rich!

I actually had some cheeky git looking in the (fairly full) cash box once -I pulled a load of paper out of my pocket and asked him if he'd like to see the receipts for the hall, flyers, guest DJ hotel & fees too! 

 

one concept about $ that ain't been raised yet this time around

 should venues that use boot playing djs charge less of an entrance fee?

when involved in events ages ago we used to pay top $ for the top main guest djs, so if someone using 'not so top' boot playing djs then the door tax should be lower... in theory... yep?

 

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Mike
shortened

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tomangoes said:

When Eddie Foster dee da do was first played at the casino was it a Carver or one of the three? Or four with the test press..

How about other covered up super rare toons at the time?

Was I'm gone only played off the original for example when got plugged back in the day?

Ed

 

All depends on exactly who was playing it/them. Certain DJs had original copies, others didn't. Many played tunes off so-called "carvers' even back then. 

And that term "carvers"? Used today by people trying to justify their use by themselves, whilst banging on about the need for a complete OVO policy at events. Call "carvers" what they really are, boots!

[Mike]

edited out as was replying to a different question than was asked

my error

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Mike
as above

[Guest]

Yes Mike, 71 thru' 75. You have to remember that prior to about 75-76, realistically only one person in the country could afford to go shopping for records in the USA. A few originals came from the usual sources, such as Soul Bowl and Global etc., but most people, including most "ordinary" DJs, couldn't get a kosher copy of the latest sounds until they were booted. Everybody wanted the latest tunes, which is why bootlegging was so commonplace. And the overwhelming majority of people who tell you they didn't buy them back then is lying through their teeth. It was the only way you could hear up to date tunes at local soul clubs. 

After '76, and as the seventies progressed, we also all became far more wealthy than just a few years earlier. It was easier to spend larger amounts of personal cash on records, as long as you could find them of course. We are now at the point where just about every collector can spend ridiculously high amounts of money on amassing a collection of originals. Amounts which were unthinkable nearly fifty years ago. This makes the OVO religion much easier to adhere to now, than "back in the day". The late Wigan era, and after, appears to be the benchmark for many people on this forum. It wasn't always that way, and various aspects of the scene were actually VERY different prior to the Casino opening its doors. This scene of ours didn't start at Station Rd.

My issue with the term "carver" is all down to hypocrisy. I have read posts on here, written by highly regarded and long standing members who have also gone into print about OVO and how boots are a blight on the scene, speaking glowingly about a set they'd heard somewhere. When asked about certain tunes played during that set, they've gone on to explain about the disc being a carver. As though that makes everything fine. I don't care whether its known as that or not, its a boot, end of! No different to an emi-disc back in 73. And I don't care whether the tune in question was an LP only track, and therefore transferred to a 7" just for ease of DJing. Its still a boot!

Another example has recently appeared in the sales section. About twenty five or so years ago, an LP appeared for sale at just about every venue. A ten track disc of unreleased Motown stuff, such as Boy from Crosstown, Lonely Lover, Any girl in love, etc. etc. Think it cost about a tenner. You'll all have seen it and although many will deny it, they'll have bought the thing as well. It was, quite obviously, a boot. Now, I've seen it listed as a "white label", "unofficial release", "carver", and various other terms. I've also seen, long ago, people DJing with it. Again, its the bloody hypocrisy that gets you all the time!

Finally, if an event is advertised as OVO, then fine, make it so. If needs be, and as inferred by a previous poster, put the door tax up to pay the DJs more. If its NOT an OVO event, who bloody cares what label the tunes are on? Boot or re-issue, British or import, emi-disc/carver or LP track. People will dance. 

Edited May 2, 2020 by Guest

[Timbo58]

On 02/05/2020 at 11:08, Mike said:

 

one concept about $ that ain't been raised yet this time around

 should venues that use boot playing djs charge less of an entrance fee?

when involved in events ages ago we used to pay top $ for the top main guest djs, so if someone using 'not so top' boot playing djs then the door tax should be lower... in theory... yep?

 

 

I'd agree, in theory, but to be fair I don't care what other events do other than they should be upfront & honest about what their music policy is to allow those who do care about what they're listening/dancing to to make their own choices whether to attend at all, simply hiding behind a 'if we don't mention it no-one will notice' isn't being honest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lennymon]

There is a video on YouTube somewhere (I do not seem to be able to find it) where people are asked a question as they arrive. The question is about a record and what label it is on and if they get the question correct they get free entry to the gig. As far as I can remember of about 30 or so people he asked they all ended up paying to get in.

Take from that what you will but I see it as the normal northern soul going person does not really care one way or another as long as the music is good.

[Bunderthollox]

Haha Whoever that is what an ego-Bin

[Mrmick]

On 05/05/2020 at 00:34, Lennymon said:

There is a video on YouTube somewhere (I do not seem to be able to find it) where people are asked a question as they arrive. The question is about a record and what label it is on and if they get the question correct they get free entry to the gig. As far as I can remember of about 30 or so people he asked they all ended up paying to get in.

Take from that what you will but I see it as the normal northern soul going person does not really care one way or another as long as the music is good.

I can imagine the chin strokers naming 2 or 3 different labels like we do stood outside a niter freezing our tits off

[Soulstu]

It was Sooty, asking which 3 labels The (New) Younghearts was issued on. Can't recall the venue, but no one got it.

[Mrmick]

Off the  top of my head i can't think of the labels but I bet if we were stood outside a niter chatting away we would.  And at a niter it matters what its played on otherwise someone can buy 100 bootlegs and play things that someone else has took years to collect and it's that passion that matters 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Greedy Mick

[Lennymon]

10 hours ago, Soulstu said:

It was Sooty, asking which 3 labels The (New) Younghearts was issued on. Can't recall the venue, but no one got it.

I'm not sure who was asking the question but it was only one leble he was asking for but as you say no one got it right so I think that says a lot that people attending a nighter dont really care about what lable the music is on because they are not record collectors they are music lovers.

I have been on the Northern scene for close on 50 years and as you can imagine the subject about playing boots at gigs has come up quite a lot in conversation and hand on heart I have never ever met anyone who really gives a toss just as long as the DJ is playing good music.

[Woodbutcher]

2 hours ago, Lennymon said:

I'm not sure who was asking the question but it was only one leble he was asking for but as you say no one got it right so I think that says a lot that people attending a nighter dont really care about what lable the music is on because they are not record collectors they are music lovers.

I have been on the Northern scene for close on 50 years and as you can imagine the subject about playing boots at gigs has come up quite a lot in conversation and hand on heart I have never ever met anyone who really gives a toss just as long as the DJ is playing good music.

You might like to put up a list of the venues you attend ..... so that those who do care about such things might avoid them in future .... 

[Lennymon]

7 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

You might like to put up a list of the venues you attend ..... so that those who do care about such things might avoid them in future .... 

Soul Police Alert!!!!

The one thing I have noticed in my short time on this forum is that some people are very quick to judge others by what they concider to be the be all and end all of the scene!!

What has the venues I attend got to do with playing boots?

What if I listed all the venues that do play OVO! Then what would you do?

PS: If you think that all the so called OVO events play nothing but OVO then to be honest my friend I would stop going to many of them because you would be so upset and probebly throw a dickyfit when you find out that they are NOT all OVO.

BootlegLenny

[Woodbutcher]

3 hours ago, Lennymon said:

Soul Police Alert!!!!

The one thing I have noticed in my short time on this forum is that some people are very quick to judge others by what they concider to be the be all and end all of the scene!!

What has the venues I attend got to do with playing boots?

What if I listed all the venues that do play OVO! Then what would you do?

PS: If you think that all the so called OVO events play nothing but OVO then to be honest my friend I would stop going to many of them because you would be so upset and probebly throw a dickyfit when you find out that they are NOT all OVO.

BootlegLenny

If over the course of fifty year's involvement on the scene you've NEVER MET ANYONE who gives a toss about bootlegs being played then you've been attending events I want nothing to do with ... 

But you carry on and enjoy your side of things and I'll do the same on my end ... 

 

[Timbo58]

'soul police' jesus. Just accept that some people have different wants than you do. I just wish those that don't play ov would be honest about it -after all if 'no one cares' they haven't got anything to lose have they?

 

[Lennymon]

3 hours ago, Woodbutcher said:

If over the course of fifty year's involvement on the scene you've NEVER MET ANYONE who gives a toss about bootlegs being played then you've been attending events I want nothing to do with ... 

But you carry on and enjoy your side of things and I'll do the same on my end ... 

 

If you really mean that then I would stop going because I have been to many OVO gigs over the years where I know for a fact that Boots and Carvers have been played.

[Lennymon]

54 minutes ago, Timbo58 said:

'soul police' jesus. Just accept that some people have different wants than you do. I just wish those that don't play ov would be honest about it -after all if 'no one cares' they haven't got anything to lose have they?

 

Hi

It just makes me so mad at times that people assume that those who do not mind boots being played at gigs only visit gigs that play boots! Why is that?

The generalised sweeping statement of "You might like to put up a list of the venues you attend ..... so that those who do care about such things might avoid them in future" when in reality I go to lots of OVO gigs and if he means what he says about venues I visit then he would really have to stop going to them to prove a point! Or Would He!!!!

[Len]

I wasn't going to get involved in this one, but I can't resist.....

The title of this thread includes 'the 21st century'......Now I fully understand the ethos of the scene, and personally I will never drop that. As far as I'm concerned you need 'licence' to play records.  As in, ref respect for the people on our scene (as well as the artists) the original format must be played.

That said - I think it blo*dy hillarious ref 'the 21st century' that we don't actually need records anymore full stop! Which I know sends lots of us in a complete daze, after all the years of collecting, wants lists, waiting, and even bidding way over the top just to bag that tune!

We don't need Videos anymore, DVDs are now almost gone, as are CDs, and on it goes.....

But to come full circle - The scene just wouldn't be what it is if the original ethos wasn't maintained 

If that all makes sense 

Len 

 

[Timbo58]

spot on Len.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Len said:

I wasn't going to get involved in this one, but I can't resist.....

The title of this thread includes 'the 21st century'......Now I fully understand the ethos of the scene, and personally I will never drop that. As far as I'm concerned you need 'licence' to play records.  As in, ref respect for the people on our scene (as well as the artists) the original format must be played.

That said - I think it blo*dy hillarious ref 'the 21st century' that we don't actually need records anymore full stop! Which I know sends lots of us in a complete daze, after all the years of collecting, wants lists, waiting, and even bidding way over the top just to bag that tune!

We don't need Videos anymore, DVDs are now almost gone, as are CDs, and on it goes.....

But to come full circle - The scene just wouldn't be what it is if the original ethos wasn't maintained 

If that all makes sense 

Len 

 

Like you Len, and after putting in my two pennorth worth earlier, I'd decided to steer well clear of this thread. Been there, seen it, done it far too many times to be bothered anymore. BUT....................at the risk of yet again pi$$ing some younger people off..................

Something you mentioned struck a chord. The term you used was "ORIGINAL" ethos. And this allows me to try to (for the umpteenth time) get across why the entire boots vs OVO thing is a complete and utter nonsense, if speaking about what is played and danced to in clubs etc., versus the serious hobby of record collecting. You see, ORIGINALLY, it'd didn't matter a toss. Punters just wanted to dance. It didn't matter what label the tune was on. It was the tune itself that mattered. People didn't have the cash to pay (even then) ridiculous amounts of cash for the latest sounds. We didn't have cassettes, CDs, MP3s, and all the other stuff we all take for granted these days. If you wanted to hear something, you needed to attend a venue. Big venues with big name DJs had these sounds, all on the original labels. (Or mostly anyway. I have already commented multiple times about certain DJs, now acclaimed and deified as Demi-Gods, who were all too happy to play emidiscs, as I sold the bloody things to them!!!!).  But smaller venues, especially the local midweek ones, saw many tunes being played from reissues, boots, or emidiscs. People didn't bother. They danced! They enjoyed themselves! 

When many on this forum speak about the "early days", or the "origins", they're actually talking about post '75. Which is when about 95% of the members on this forum started on "the scene". Many myths and untruths have been written on these threads over the years concerning this scene of ours. Just because someone wasn't there at the time doesn't mean it didn't happen, but to read some of the tripe written about the Wheel, Torch, Cats and many, many other places makes me really chuckle. And all written by people who knew a friend of their big sisters boyfriends cousin, who may have been at the Torch once. Or, as its known to lots of people,  the Elaine Constantine school of Norvern Soul. Bottom line is that the scene didn't start in 1976 at Station Road, as many on here seem to believe.

And remember, we now pretty much have two separate scenes, running alongside each other. One, mainly all-nighter based, and attended mainly by many of the people on here. The other sees many, many people who left the Niter scene back in 75, but have religiously attended a local soul night near to home, every single week or month ever since. These people, the original members of the scene, may not have gotten themselves blocked up every week since, and attended a NIter, but may actually, depending on how you look at these things, actually be the people who have really kept the real scene alive. Or, if you want, call them "handbaggers", as many of the self appointed uber-cool on this forum have called them on numerous occasions.

If we're talking about collecting, then all the above counts for nowt. I collected purely British back in the early 70's, having a collection that now would be worth God knows how much. I also DJd, and had no hesitation is using boots and emidiscs. To me, and everyone else back then, the two activities were mutually exclusive. I really cannot understand this new quasi-religious obsession with OVO etc. 

Bottom line is, as far as events are concerned, go where you want to go. Enjoy yourselves, dance, make new friends, learn new things. Life, even for the younger members on this forum, is getting far too short to be bothered about anything else, especially something as unimportant as the OVO yes or no argument. 

Oh, and finally, if yet again I've pi$$ed people off with my musings, I really don't care. Too old to be fussed. WAY too old!

Edited May 31, 2020 by Guest

[Len]

Well said Joey - I find the whole 'Oh so OVO' thing so 'Plastic'.

I have the utmost respect for some DJs, and some I don't so much (Nothing personal I hasten to add) And guess what? Some I don't rate only play original records.

DJing is different to collecting.  DJing is an art form as far as I'm concerned (I know some may find that a ridiculous thing to say) It takes a lot of work for a DJ to gain respect, which is something that can not be rushed, or more importanty - Bought!

Just enjoy the blo*dy music!

Ok I'm done 

Len 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Len said:

Well said Joey - I find the whole 'Oh so OVO' thing so 'Plastic'.

I have the utmost respect for some DJs, and some I don't so much (Nothing personal I hasten to add) And guess what? Some I don't rate only play original records.

DJing is different to collecting.  DJing is an art form as far as I'm concerned (I know some may find that a ridiculous thing to say) It takes a lot of work for a DJ to gain respect, which is something that can not be rushed, or more importanty - Bought!

Just enjoy the blo*dy music!

Ok I'm done 

Len 

 

Finally, a voice of reason and understanding. Thank you Len! You're absolutely correct regarding DJing being akin to an art form. Which is why I tend to always bang the drum and ring the bell all the time for the late, great Martyn Ellis. A man who could raise the dead whenever he stood behind the decks, and who never owned a record collection! 

Collecting and DJing are most definite mutually exclusive activities. Or at the very least should be. Being one does not necessarily mean a person is going to be very good at the other. Anyone can see that at any number of venues! 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Guest

[Lennymon]

After lots of threads on here that I have read it is about time that record collectors understood that record collecting has nothing what so ever to do with the Northern Soul scene and it never ever did in the first place.

I have read storys of DJ's throwing records in to the crowd or selling them off cheap when they got booted back in the day! If they were record collectors and not DJ's why would they throw Originals away?

I have been on the scene a very long time and I have seen many many things in my time and the OVO thing is a recent thing because back in the day it was not even thought about. And that my friends is FACT not fiction.

BootlegLenny