New Diesel and petrol cars banned from 2030.

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

Would love to hear people's views on this. I personally can't see the infrastructure being in place by 2040 never mind 2030. I spend a lot of time in the great outdoors in places that still don't even have a mobile phone signal 30 years after they became available never mind Internet connection so how are they going to upgrade the electricity system to cope. That includes new power stations to supply the massive demand that will be created.  How will these factories, office blocks , private houses   rented houses  manage to install enough charge points , what about terraced houses with no outside parking .  I know everyone won't be going out to buy a electric car all at once. Over to you knowledgeable people on here.  

[Leicester Boy 884]

I work for Leicestershire highways and they have installed electic charge stations in the car park at our depot.  Not seen anyone use them yet though. 

[Stanley 314]

massive job to undertake on such a scale.i can,t see how its going to happen .

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

1 hour ago, Leicester Boy said:

I work for Leicestershire highways and they have installed electic charge stations in the car park at our depot.  Not seen anyone use them yet though. 

How many have they installed  ? And is it a big car park? 

[Fish Fingers 198]

I am going electric with my next car. 

I was a bit sceptical until next door neighbour got a Tesla last year. 

It can do 300+ miles plus on a charge. And running costs are a about 10% of his previous car. Now about £30 pm when his previous car was over £300! He is with Octopus Energy and gets ultra cheap night rate which the car charger can programme to use. 

Its a big saving! I don't think people realise just how much you can save a month on fuel. 

And with this in mind I just think in 3+ years time, used electric cars will be so much more sought after than petrol/diesel.....and retained values will reflect this. Hence a smarter buy now. 

It will change when the Govt start having to charge per mile....but at the moment there is a window of opportunity (subsidised cars and charging points too). 

Just need something I like to come out electric, as not keen on any current electric cars (other than Porsche Taycan). 

 

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

The last place I worked at the boss there bought a brand new Mercedes hybrid and a charge point was fitted.  He lives in Warrington and the business is in Ashton under Lyne.  30 miles on electric its maximum range , it wasn't even a self charging car / battery, not even worth bothering with if you ask me. And god knows how much it cost.

[Sceneman 127]

batterys are progressing all the time and power packs will be invented so things are not the same year on year ,hydrogen power packs are possible ,tesla reckon theyre batterys will be cheaper soon .its all very fluid.. garages will be selling less petrol and diesal as e cars become more common

[Leicester Boy 884]

1 hour ago, Winsford Soul said:

How many have they installed  ? And is it a big car park? 

 A couple . Probably 100 cars park there. Has been a rumor that all our vans and lorries will eventually be phased out to be replaced by electric but not sure of the timescale steve.

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

3 minutes ago, Sceneman said:

batterys are progressing all the time and power packs will be invented so things are not the same year on year ,hydrogen power packs are possible ,tesla reckon theyre batterys will be cheaper soon .its all very fluid.. garages will be selling less petrol and diesal as e cars become more common

Just been reading that it Currently costs more to charge a tesla overnight than it does to fill up a equivalent size car with fuel 

[Mark B 270]

forget the batteries and charging infrastructure where is the average person going to get the money from to buy the car even with the paltry subsidies, if I traded both my cars in I would still be short by about 18 to 20 thousand on an average electric car, the starting point is around 25 thousand, then there is your charging point what happens on a street with 100 terraced houses and everyone one with a car, that will be a charge point on the front of every house and massive fights about parking outside your own house to charge it also all the trailing leads across the pavements, people in apartments with car parking spaces same thing, where my stepfather lives there is 3 car parks 1 for each block and about 100 cars parked with own numbered spaces how do you get the charging points across the car park. Plus what happens to all the old cars that have to be scrapped (or will someone make a fortune by being given the job by the government to dispose of them sell to some of the poorer countries) . it would also damage new car sales in the years from 2025 onwards as people would hang on till the last minute. is there enough cars being made to cover it.

at the end of 2018 there were 30 million fuel driven cars on the road this I think is a task that can't happen in such a short time. 

Plus how do they charge for the loss of fuel taxes.

[Fish Fingers 198]

24 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

Just been reading that it Currently costs more to charge a tesla overnight than it does to fill up a equivalent size car with fuel 

Lots of variables for the assumptions I suppose. 

Next door pays 5p per kw/h overnight with Octopus Energy So that rate theoretically costs him £5 as its a 100kwh car. 

He then gets 300+ miles out of it fully charged. 

His previous car (Jaguar XKR??) was admittedly thirsty and he said cost him about 10x that. 

So lots of variables. Tariff to charge electric and compared to what? Thirsty petrol performance car or super frugal diesel. 

 

 

[Fish Fingers 198]

16 minutes ago, Mark B said:

 

Plus how do they charge for the loss of fuel taxes.

Don't worry about that. There was plenty of press speculation earlier this week about just that. 

https://news.sky.com/story/road-pricing-sunak-eyes-40bn-tax-threat-from-electric-vehicle-drive-12133772

[Fish Fingers 198]

Just found this on the comparison of costs. 

CAR magazine did their maths in August, so hopefully pretty much up to date. 

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-much-ev-charging-and-running-cost/#:~:text=Let's consider a 100kWh Tesla,from completely empty to full.

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

The cost of producing electric cars compared to the costs of producing petrol/ diesel vehicles is actually environmentally less friendly when you consider the environmental costs /price of components/ batteries. There's only the emissions that are more environmentally friendly which wayed up against the build cost drastically reduce the benefits . I know that they should reduce costs as better technology arrives but I'm not convinced as yet. I need a large estate car / hatchback for my fishing tackle so the cars available in my price range which isn't exactly cheap are just not financially possible.  

Edited November 18, 2020 by Winsford Soul

[Leicester Boy 884]

I honestly think the cost of covid and recovery will knock things like this back at least 5-10 years.

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

4 minutes ago, Fish Fingers said:

Just found this on the comparison of costs. 

CAR magazine did their maths in August, so hopefully pretty much up to date. 

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/how-much-ev-charging-and-running-cost/#:~:text=Let's consider a 100kWh Tesla,from completely empty to full.

Very interesting reading.  Thanks for sharing  

[Fish Fingers 198]

My main issue is I wanted to get a new car this year. And I would gladly have gone for a new petrol model as there are a few I like. 

But I think the rise of electric is a dead cert. So I don't want to buy a petrol car now and see its value plummet over the next few years. 

Unfortunately, I don't like most of the current EV. So it's a matter of waiting till an EV comes out I like. 

Fortunately we can get a charger fitted at home. I know everyone is not in that position. I also think this 'golden period' for EV ownership will end soon (subsidised purchase / subsidised charger / no road tax). You currently get paid to own one. 

[Mark B 270]

11 minutes ago, Fish Fingers said:

Don't worry about that. There was plenty of press speculation earlier this week about just that. 

https://news.sky.com/story/road-pricing-sunak-eyes-40bn-tax-threat-from-electric-vehicle-drive-12133772

I read this yesterday just threw it in my post as 1 of the portly thought reasons 

[Mark B 270]

3 minutes ago, Fish Fingers said:

My main issue is I wanted to get a new car this year. And I would gladly have gone for a new petrol model as there are a few I like. 

But I think the rise of electric is a dead cert. So I don't want to buy a petrol car now and see its value plummet over the next few years. 

Unfortunately, I don't like most of the current EV. So it's a matter of waiting till an EV comes out I like. 

Fortunately we can get a charger fitted at home. I know everyone is not in that position. I also think this 'golden period' for EV ownership will end soon (subsidised purchase / subsidised charger / no road tax). You currently get paid to own one. 

I am  same we can have a charger fitted very easily and have a drive but not everyone has this facility, also what happens when you have a household with 1 car each for parents an 3 kids all with their own,  5 cars starts to become a stretch doesnt it

also all new builds will have to be built with charging facilities 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Mark B

[Fish Fingers 198]

No kids at our house Mark....so no problem

The technology is here now (Tesla) and most people are behind the curve and still thinking how Clarkson and Co reported on Top Gear a few years ago. 

It's moved on a lot since then. 

Range is now over 300 miles and a fast charge gets you 80% in about 30 minutes. You would be stopping for a coffee/loo break in a petrol anyway after 300 miles. 

I just don't like Tesla's really and want someone else to come out with their level of tech, in something I like, in price range. 

I have spent all year umming and ahhing over this. Nearly bought a new petrol...but decided holding off for an EV is defo right decision. 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Fish Fingers

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

12 minutes ago, Fish Fingers said:

No kids at our house Mark....so no problem

The technology is here now (Tesla) and most people are behind the curve and still thinking how Clarkson and Co reported on Top Gear a few years ago. 

It's moved on a lot since then. 

Range is now over 300 miles and a fast charge gets you 80% in about 30 minutes. You would be stopping for a coffee/loo break in a petrol anyway after 300 miles. 

I just don't like Tesla's really and want someone else to come out with their level of tech, in something I like, in price range. 

I have spent all year umming and ahhing over this. Nearly bought a new petrol...but decided holding off for an EV is defo right decision. 

Ian. You say the range is over 300 miles, at what speed  does that involve.  Or is it a given regardless of speed ?  Unlike diesel/ petrol when you go faster your fuel consumption suffers. Pardon my ignorance of this as it's something that I have never thought about 

Ste 

[Woodbutcher 2,021]

It'll not suit me me , 300 miles wouldn't get me to Springfield all-niter and home again , would barely cover a trip to the 100 Club with detours to pick up mates , I'll be going second-hand diesel again and bugger Boris ... 

[Douglaschip 241]

Went to petrol 4 years ago from diesel - but just gone second hand back to diesel again due to mileage.

Still waiting for a real understanding of how battery production and disposal and electricity production required will be so much more environmentally friendly then modern diesel / petrol engines.

I am sure there will come a time when this will be the case but think I will hang on for a bit!

[Stanley 314]

its not that long ago ,the government were telling us to buy new diesel cars and then they introduced  zero road tax to encourage it.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Stanley

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

1 minute ago, Stanley said:

its not that long ago ,the government were telling us to buy new diesel cars and then they introduced  zero road tax to encourage it.

George.  They did that and increased the price of diesel so for the first time ever it became more expensive than petrol and its stayed that way since. Rip off 

Hope you're OK and keeping safe and well my friend 

[Hornet 394]

Having an electric company car next month Kia Niro , the fuel consumption on my diesel Vauxhall is mega @ 65 mpg but dirty slow ,smelly & noisy , electric is the way 4ward 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Hornet
Error

[Kevinkent 1,112]

1 hour ago, Woodbutcher said:

It'll not suit me me , 300 miles wouldn't get me to Springfield all-niter and home again , would barely cover a trip to the 100 Club with detours to pick up mates , I'll be going second-hand diesel again and bugger Boris ... 

Same here except I'll stick to petrol. I want the freedom to drive anywhere in the UK for a night out, without stopping en-route and then having to search for a charging station near to a venue. 

A couple of years ago I drove 1510 miles back from a weekender in Spain with just two stops, one for fuel and one for fuel + rest, and couldn't imagine having to make numerous stops through Spain and France. I fancy doing the same trip next year. 300 miles just isn't good enough - it's a day out if the mood takes me.

 

[Fish Fingers 198]

Things have changed....and are going to carry on changing at a very rapid rate. Most peoples views are out of date. Have a look at the clip below from August this year. 

I have always been a petrol head and would love to stay with Internal Combustion (as there are some cars I really like out there) - but I am convinced it will prove to be the wrong decision in a few years when I look at the trade-in value of an IC compared to an EV. 

[Fish Fingers 198]

3 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Ian. You say the range is over 300 miles, at what speed  does that involve.  Or is it a given regardless of speed ?  Unlike diesel/ petrol when you go faster your fuel consumption suffers. Pardon my ignorance of this as it's something that I have never thought about 

Ste 

Ste... I don't know the official answer to that (without looking it up) but in the real world my neighbour regularly commutes to Glasgow (from Warrington) and he makes it with plenty of charge spare. 

His Tesla will guide him to a charging point when necessary (even choosing one that's unused) and it then takes 20 mins for an 80% charge. Not too different from range and fill up time for an IC car. 

And he's just had an over the air update which has extended mileage further. 

I really don't like Tesla....but I have been incredibly impressed with it. Its bloody fast too! 

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

2 minutes ago, Fish Fingers said:

Things have changed....and are going to carry on changing at a very rapid rate. Most peoples views are out of date. Have a look at the clip below from August this year. 

I have always been a petrol head and would love to stay with Internal Combustion (as there are some cars I really like out there) - but I am convinced it will prove to be the wrong decision in a few years when I look at the trade-in value of an IC compared to an EV. 

A charging station by definition could be one plug socket. And if its in use when you pull up and they have only just started charging there vehicle you will either have to wait until they have finished or look elsewhere. So thats not a great comparison a fuel station is by definition a forecourt with multiple pumps that are only used for 5 minutes maximum when filling up. 

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

Just now, Fish Fingers said:

Ste... I don't know the official answer to that (without looking it up) but in the real world my neighbour regularly commutes to Glasgow (from Warrington) and he makes it with plenty of charge spare. 

His Tesla will guide him to a charging point when necessary (even choosing one that's unused) and it then takes 20 mins for an 80% charge. Not too different from range and fill up time for an IC car. 

And he's just had an over the air update which has extended mileage further. 

I really don't like Tesla....but I have been incredibly impressed with it. Its bloody fast too! 

Wow.  I didn't know anything about the tech that was involved,  certainly opened my eyes.  I suppose its similar to my Ford kuga infotainment system that tells me where I can fill up,   coffee etc

[Fish Fingers 198]

22 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

Wow.  I didn't know anything about the tech that was involved,  certainly opened my eyes.  I suppose its similar to my Ford kuga infotainment system that tells me where I can fill up,   coffee etc

It's worth having a look on Tesla website. And have a look at the map. There are a lot of chargers now. 

And don't forget, if the law allowed it, the tech exists for the car to book itself in for a charge while you go to sleep and the car would drive itself there. 

 https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger

Jesus... I'm beginning to sound like a Tesla advert, and I don't even like them

On a side issue I have checked my car and I dont even manage 300 miles on a full tank in that!

Edited November 18, 2020 by Fish Fingers

[Kevinkent 1,112]

As much as an electric vehicle wouldn't suit me now I will eventually have to bow to the inevitable.  Not really a problem as I'll be 80 in 2032 and there'll still be petrol cars around then plus I'll probably have packed in long journeys and nighters anyway.

What I am concerned about is that my 17yr old grandson has ambitions to become a motor mechanic and he's currently studying mechanics at a 6th Form College.  I raised the issue of the move to electric with him and my son, but as yet they seem to take a blinkered approach.

Fact is, from what I've discovered motor mechanics will become largely extinct. The idea of additional training of existing mechanics to cover EV's appears to be scoffed at by automotive hierarchy. Apparently the average EV has 20 moving parts compared to 2000 in a petrol vehicle and one current line of thought is that bodyshops will undertake training to cater for any work on EV's.  Tesla are currently recruiting a limited number of new technicians in the USA. From what I've read these are mainly to cater for a mobile fleet rather than being workshop or garage based. They are recruiting techs to be trained purely in EV's, rather than retraining current mechanics. If I was a young mechanic I'd be looking for a new career.

I'm only going by what I've read. If anyone in the industry can convince me that I'm wrong, I'll be a happy man!

- Kev

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kevinkent
Grammar

[Billy Jo Jim Bob 479]

21 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

Would love to hear people's views on this. I personally can't see the infrastructure being in place by 2040 never mind 2030. I spend a lot of time in the great outdoors in places that still don't even have a mobile phone signal 30 years after they became available never mind Internet connection so how are they going to upgrade the electricity system to cope. That includes new power stations to supply the massive demand that will be created.  How will these factories, office blocks , private houses   rented houses  manage to install enough charge points , what about terraced houses with no outside parking .  I know everyone won't be going out to buy a electric car all at once. Over to you knowledgeable people on here.  

I work in the energy industry and its complete madness in my view and I've told my MP as much. The aim of government is to be carbon neutral by 2050, but being carbon neutral does not mean you cannot use fossil fuels it means balancing emissions and what can be reduced, captured or absorbed. There are also massive developments using Hydrogen that if we go down the renewables route we will miss. 

The infrastructure for electric vehicles is estimated to cost 14 Bn £ (probably a massive underestimate BTW) and the government will lose 40Bn in taxation from vehicles, fuel etc. There are still major questions concerning the development of the electrical infrastructure not least of which if most people have electric cars how many charging points do we need and where will they be ? There are 37.5 million vehicles registered for use on UK roads....so just do the maths if everyone needs a charging point !!

There is also the question of how we are going to generate enough electricity to power these vehicles bearing in mind at peak times we are pretty close to our limit now and renewables (wind, solar etc) will only generate when the wind blows or sun shines and we don't yet have electrical storage technologies in the capacities we would require. Electric cars will need batteries and China dominates the world markets and only a small part of a battery can be recycled so what do the green blob who are pushing electric vehicles think about this ? I could go on an on but all political parties seem set on this path.

I did see an interview with Sir Ian Duncan Smith (Conservative) and he agreed with the interviewer that this policy is stupid. 

[Mike 5,757]

1 hour ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

I work in the energy industry and its complete madness in my view and I've told my MP as much.

 

you seem to do that a fair bit

how does that work then?

do you go to their surgery or ..?

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Mike
tidy

[Mike 5,757]

found myself wondering if it all does bring in less pollution, lower noise levels  if that  would that have any effect on house prices in certain built up areas?

 

 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob 479]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

 

you seem to do that a fair bit

how does that work then?

do you go to their surgery or ..?

 

Anyone can contact their local MP and express their views on any subject, that's what they are there for but few do it.

At the moment its by email and my MP arranges phone calls in his schedule if it needs a deeper discussion. Obviously under different circumstances I would go to the surgery. 

My MP is very open and approachable and you can have a sensible conversation, although we don't agree on everything we discuss he takes on board your views and explains why he disagrees and why the government is taking the route chosen or confirms that he shares the same view and what he is doing to promote this with ministers. 

There's no shouting or temper tantrums just a respectful conversation where we agree or agree to disagree.

 

[Martyn Pitt 2,478]

I have a Hybrid the biggest problem when it's running on electric is that it is silent, people cannot hear it coming, a friend suggested that I fit a cowbell on the outside to alert pedestrians to my presence.

I will probably switch to full electric in the future.

[Dylan 730]

20 minutes ago, Martyn Pitt said:

I have a Hybrid the biggest problem when it's running on electric is that it is silent, people cannot hear it coming, a friend suggested that I fit a cowbell on the outside to alert pedestrians to my presence.

I will probably switch to full electric in the future.

That’s something i’ve noticed as well.  Could be quite dangerous for children crossing the road.  They seem to appear out of nowhere.

 

infastructure and cost both need addressing I’d like an electric car myself but they are too expensive.

 

the acceleration on Tesla’s is incredible. Not that you would get many miles range driving it that way.

[Soulman58 1,030]

On 18/11/2020 at 15:55, Mark B said:

forget the batteries and charging infrastructure where is the average person going to get the money from to buy the car even with the paltry subsidies, if I traded both my cars in I would still be short by about 18 to 20 thousand on an average electric car, the starting point is around 25 thousand, then there is your charging point what happens on a street with 100 terraced houses and everyone one with a car, that will be a charge point on the front of every house and massive fights about parking outside your own house to charge it also all the trailing leads across the pavements, people in apartments with car parking spaces same thing, where my stepfather lives there is 3 car parks 1 for each block and about 100 cars parked with own numbered spaces how do you get the charging points across the car park. Plus what happens to all the old cars that have to be scrapped (or will someone make a fortune by being given the job by the government to dispose of them sell to some of the poorer countries) . it would also damage new car sales in the years from 2025 onwards as people would hang on till the last minute. is there enough cars being made to cover it.

at the end of 2018 there were 30 million fuel driven cars on the road this I think is a task that can't happen in such a short time. 

Plus how do they charge for the loss of fuel taxes.

There will still be plenty of people running petrol/diesel cars beyond 2030, so not everyone will need a charger immediately.  Longer term they are still hoping that batteries improve massively, time will tell if this happens or not.

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

3 hours ago, Martyn Pitt said:

I have a Hybrid the biggest problem when it's running on electric is that it is silent, people cannot hear it coming, a friend suggested that I fit a cowbell on the outside to alert pedestrians to my presence.

I will probably switch to full electric in the future.

Have you told my small but perfectly formed lilliputian friend that you have said that its quite in the car.   Martyn I don't believe for one minute Carol is that silent so that you can't hear your lovely car driving past

[Martyn Pitt 2,478]

She can be quite quiet Steve if thats what you meant 

It is a natural progression, we had horse and carts, then steam power, then the internal combustion engine, next will be electric or hydrogen powered vehicles, then who knows what, there will always be progression as man strives to improve.

 

 

[Yourbiggestfan 0]

2 hours ago, Martyn Pitt said:

She can be quite quiet Steve if thats what you meant 

It is a natural progression, we had horse and carts, then steam power, then the internal combustion engine, next will be electric or hydrogen powered vehicles, then who knows what, there will always be progression as man strives to improve.

 

 

I'm of the opinion that in the next 10 to 20 years hydrogen technology will supersede electric, at the moment though its production relies heavily on the use of animal waste.

As a vegan this option would not appeal to me, unless that is, it was derived from human waste. 

 

 

[Julianb 1,127]

How much fossil fuel/renewable energy will be used to charge these vehicles. Strikes me of 'robbing Peter to pay Paul'

[MrT 2]

Its inevitable this will eventually  happen , however not in the time frame suggested .   The required infrastructure will not be in place for another 15-20 years .   Having spent Fifty years in the motor industry this is the general consensus of opinion. Fear not brothers and sisters.

[Chalky 15,651]

Technology is moving fast and I think in time charging will probably done via a normal socket from the house.  There could even be the possibility of putting charge into the battery whilst on the move.  There will also be better batteries over time.

I travel for a living and charging points are growing very fast.

Once mass production kicks in I would imagine costs will come down as well?

[Winsford Soul 15,588]

10 minutes ago, Chalky said:

There could even be the possibility of putting charge into the battery whilst on the move.  There will also be better batteries over time.

 

Karl. Some of the high end cars are charging while they drive now. Think it happens when they using conventional fuels and it tops up the batteries for when they go back to electric use. 

[Chris L 2,317]

The car manufacturers will be up for the challenge but no government anywhere will be ready by 2030 with all the charging infrastructure plus the electrical supply. As with most government led projects it will be 'over promising' and 'under delivering'.

 

[Colnago 586]

One issue is the carbon footprint to produce the electric cars to be offset with the existing fossil fuel cars  ,the demand of the electric car and the surplus of good roadworthy cars and the dismantling of these fossil fuel cars will have an effect, also a lot of these cars will probably end up in poorer countries, so still spewing out carbon,I’m all for the electric route but until they are not using solar or wind power for recharging there is a power station running on fossil fuel somewhere . 

[Chalky 15,651]

17 minutes ago, Colnago said:

One issue is the carbon footprint to produce the electric cars to be offset with the existing fossil fuel cars  ,the demand of the electric car and the surplus of good roadworthy cars and the dismantling of these fossil fuel cars will have an effect, also a lot of these cars will probably end up in poorer countries, so still spewing out carbon,I’m all for the electric route but until they are not using solar or wind power for recharging there is a power station running on fossil fuel somewhere . 

power station will more than likely be biomass, waste, wind and solar by then