The stoppers come back baby

[Speedlimit]

Just listening to this great double sider, I used to have covered up as the fantastic four before selling to Mr Dyson. What do we know about the group??? 

[Soul-slider]

I'm intrigued myself about this group.

BTW: I've got a great version by 'Thee Midniters'.

[Tlscapital]

57 minutes ago, Soul-slider said:

I'm intrigued myself about this group.

BTW: I've got a great version by 'Thee Midniters'.

Original versions of both sides of these enigmatic 'Stoppers' yet fantastic group are from two Roddie Joy 45's on Red Bird. Thee Midniters were often covering stuffs. Likely they covered Roddie here...

Edited December 12, 2020 by Tlscapital

[clevesoulie]

Same producers credited on both the Stoppers and Roddie Joy...there's your connection right there.

Best,

Mark

[Tlscapital]

4 hours ago, clevesoulie said:

Same producers credited on both the Stoppers and Roddie Joy...there's your connection right there.

Best,

Mark

Yes Mark the connection. As said before both sides being Roddie Joy's tunes prior. Surrounded by the same producers and eventually composers (LOL ! ) but who are the Stoppers ? That's what bugging us still.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 23/05/2021 at 07:40, Tlscapital said:

Yes Mark the connection. As said before both sides being Roddie Joy's tunes prior. Surrounded by the same producers and eventually composers (LOL ! ) but who are the Stoppers ? That's what bugging us still.

The writers and producers were also the same with Vicki Baines, Philly connection and all that, so my tiny mind wondered if they had had their name shortened, if you know what I mean 

Remove the Show and you have Stoppers ?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Tlscapital]

29 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The writers and producers were also the same with Vicki Baines, Philly connection and all that, so my tiny mind wondered if they had had their name shortened, if you know what I mean 

Remove the Show and you have tSoppers ?

OK Snoopy but vocally I can't hear the 'house party' guys on either sides of the Jibilee record.

Can you ? Or are your long dropping ears impairing you ? Or are they that versatile artists ?

[Blackpoolsoul]

28 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

OK Snoopy but vocally I can't hear the 'house party' guys on either sides of the Jibilee record.

Can you ? Or are your long dropping ears impairing you ? Or are they that versatile artists ?

I have said I am often wrong but this thread needs continuation for a result and it might have been a different lead on vocals 

Of course the writers and producers are all New York based

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ny/204210

There are two different issues as well which is interesting perhaps East / West coast

Edited December 9, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Wheelsville1]

15 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I have said I am often wrong but this thread needs continuation for a result and it might have been a different lead on vocals 

Of course the writers and producers are all New York based

https://opencorporates.com/companies/us_ny/204210

There are two different issues as well which is interesting perhaps East / West coast

I think you are right,the styrene copy may well be the west coast press. 

[Mike]

lead singers name Jimmy right ? 

[Simon T]

36 minutes ago, Source said:

lead singers name Jimmy right ? 

Roddie sings 'Roddie'

Little Willie G sings 'Willie'

so you could be right with a James taking the lead on the Stoppers!

But there's an unreleased version where the singer, Rodney, sings 'Dave'

Edited December 10, 2021 by Simon T

[Blackpoolsoul]

5 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I think you are right,the styrene copy may well be the west coast press. 

Nice link here,

 

On 23/05/2021 at 07:40, Tlscapital said:

Yes Mark the connection. As said before both sides being Roddie Joy's tunes prior. Surrounded by the same producers and eventually composers (LOL ! ) but who are the Stoppers ? That's what bugging us still.

no mention of the group though, shame

http://www.ripopmusic.org/musical-artists/producers/mike-lewis-stuart-weiner/

[Kenb]

don't get exited...after searching for years i don't have anything on The Stoppers themselves.

But i still have notes on some of the key players.

On the Stoppers sides

A-side. Ricky Lisi (co-writer) is i believe Yolanda's brother.(see Apex 13435, 13397, etc)

B-side Joe Sauter(co-writer) 

Sauter also formed Rooster Records & pub co with Eric Sayho & Joseph Elia.

Eric Sayho (see Apex 77025, 1966)

Joe Sauter was under contract as a writer to Warner Bros for 3 years and did off-broadway musicals.

Joseph Elia operated summer theatres in Florida, California & Pa. 

the rest...Wemar, etc is easily got from BB/CB or RW.

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

don't get exited...after searching for years i don't have anything on The Stoppers themselves.

But i still have notes on some of the key players.

On the Stoppers sides

A-side. Ricky Lisi (co-writer) is i believe Yolanda's brother.(see Apex 13435, 13397, etc)

B-side Joe Sauter(co-writer) 

Sauter also formed Rooster Records & pub co with Eric Sayho & Joseph Elia.

Eric Sayho (see Apex 77025, 1966)

Joe Sauter was under contract as a writer to Warner Bros for 3 years and did off-broadway musicals.

Joseph Elia operated summer theatres in Florida, California & Pa. 

the rest...Wemar, etc is easily got from BB/CB or RW.

Blimey, if you don't know buddy then I guess we can confine this thread to the bin forever 

I have asked all my contacts and nothing yet and the writers and producers have some serious pedigree for us.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Simon T]

The best thing to do is keep checking Youtube posts and maybe one day will comment saying 'that's my dad, uncle, cousin  etc etc

In the meantime groove along to (Cry Baby Cry?)

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Simon T

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, Simon T said:

The best thing to do is keep checking Youtube posts and maybe one day will comment saying 'that's my dad, uncle, cousin  etc etc

In the meantime groove along to (Cry Baby Cry?)

 

Indeed and you may be correct

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

2 hours ago, Kenb said:

don't get exited...after searching for years i don't have anything on The Stoppers themselves.

But i still have notes on some of the key players.

On the Stoppers sides

A-side. Ricky Lisi (co-writer) is i believe Yolanda's brother.(see Apex 13435, 13397, etc)

B-side Joe Sauter(co-writer) 

Sauter also formed Rooster Records & pub co with Eric Sayho & Joseph Elia.

Eric Sayho (see Apex 77025, 1966)

Joe Sauter was under contract as a writer to Warner Bros for 3 years and did off-broadway musicals.

Joseph Elia operated summer theatres in Florida, California & Pa. 

the rest...Wemar, etc is easily got from BB/CB or RW.

I don't think Jimmy Beaumont could be lead could he ?

Producers here again

AKA The Skyliners ?

Because some of you know more than I do and ever will, please don't shoot me down 

Remember the thing "If you throw enough, some of it will stick". That's the plan

It's taken me 20 years (with help) to find the line up of The Peoples Choice on Palmer, so I don't want to stop on this one.

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Simon T]

You could try a different tack and ask if someone could actually ID the vocalist, probably called Jimmy someone - Robbk is a whiz at it

[Robbk]

18 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

I think you are right,the styrene copy may well be the west coast press. 

 

8 hours ago, Simon T said:

You could try a different tack and ask if someone could actually ID the vocalist, probably called Jimmy someone - Robbk is a whiz at it

WOW!  I recognise THAT voice!  I'm sure I have several other records by him.  But, unfortunately, I can't connect a name to him.  I've always liked that rich, full voice.  I'd bet I even have at least a few of his group's best songs on some of my hand-made cassette tapes.  But, I no longer have a functioning cassette player, nor the time to sit through hundreds of tapes to find the group, even if I would buy a new cassette deck and have it shipped to me.

No!  This guy's voice is too different from Jimmy Beaumont's.  The Stoppers' lead has a much richer, more full voice, with vibrato that I've never heard in Beaumont's voice.  And yes, The Stoppers' "Come Back Baby" was pressed on styrene at Monarch.  I can see the temptation to think it might be Jimmy Beaumont because he worked with Mike Lewis and Stu Weiner, and Artie Butler not long after, or very near the same time.  But the voices are just too different.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Robbk

[Tlscapital]

Agree with Robbk. That Jimmy Beaumont theory is a no-no. By the names, time & label it could have been a possibility but by the performance not to these ears of mine. Loving the Stoppers I mean that is.

If the Stoppers harmony vocals could be white and/or black, the high pitches choruses are more stereo-typical of the 'latin' or white group of the time while the front leader's 'rich & deep' vocal could be either.

Yet more likely he would be white too. But I have no clue or even 'hint' like Robbk to be familiar with or have even heard that voice before. And I'm less acquainted with 'white' vocal groups than others... 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Tlscapital

[Blackpoolsoul]

16 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Agree with Robbk. That Jimmy Beaumont theory is a no-no. By the names, time & label it could have been a possibility but by the performance not to these ears of mine. Loving the Stoppers I mean that is.

If the Stoppers harmony vocals could be white and/or black, the high pitches choruses are more stereo-typical of the 'latin' or white group of the time while the front leader's 'rich & deep' vocal could be either.

Yet more likely he would be white too. But I have no clue or even 'hint' like Robbk to be familiar with or have even heard that voice before. And I'm less acquainted with 'white' vocal groups than others... 

Thanks and what really intrigues me is that we know there are lots of copies around and it was (likely) pressed on both sides of the USA and there plenty of demos, so surely someone somewhere has a clue ?

Here's hoping

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Agree with Robbk. That Jimmy Beaumont theory is a no-no. By the names, time & label it could have been a possibility but by the performance not to these ears of mine. Loving the Stoppers I mean that is.

If the Stoppers harmony vocals could be white and/or black, the high pitches choruses are more stereo-typical of the 'latin' or white group of the time while the front leader's 'rich & deep' vocal could be either.

Yet more likely he would be white too. But I have no clue or even 'hint' like Robbk to be familiar with or have even heard that voice before. And I'm less acquainted with 'white' vocal groups than others... 

To MY ears, the background group's chorus members sound Caucasian or, possibly Latino, while the single falsetto voice sounds Black, and the lead singer could be Caucasian, Laztino, or Afro-American.  I lived in Ghettos in Chicago, L.A. and S.F. Bay Area, and Lily White suburbs in all 3 cities, as well.  And living in California, one hears a LOT of Latinos speaking.  And so, I am rarely wrong about voices and accents.  I don't remember a group with such a make-up.  But New York Metro Area had Spanish Harlem, with both Black Latinos, and mestizo Latinos.  So, ALL the different combinations are possible.  This group is really tough to peg. I thought of this group simply as another Black Soul group, since buying the record in the late mid '60s.  But Brooklyn was filled with mixed groups of all 3 "races".  So, it would be difficult to get any leads from their overall sound.  We'd need to recognise an  individual's voice, or we need to find a relative or friend of one of the group on their YouTube record posting, otherwise we likely won't ever know who they were.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Thanks and what really intrigues me is that we know there are lots of copies around and it was (likely) pressed on both sides of the USA and there plenty of demos, so surely someone somewhere has a clue ?

Here's hoping

Is Mike Lewis still around?  Artie Butler probably wouldn't remember who  they were.  He arranged sessions for hundreds and hundreds of groups.  Last I remember, he was operating a recording studio in North Hollywood.  We (Airwave Records) used his studio several times during the early 1980s.  I imagine he'd be about 82-85 years old now, and not remember that group, just like Joe Hunter didn't remember who was in the original Dramatics, and Robert Bateman and Robert Gordy didn't remember the names of many of the people that crossed their paths 50+ years before being interviewed about them.  To people working every day in The Music Business, it was just their job, and they worked on hundreds or even possibly thousands of recordings.  They weren't historians and cataloguers and trivia experts like serious, big-time record collectors are.  To them, most recording sessions and record projects over a long career were just the daily details of their work.  They didn't spend time memorising all of them.  They did their work, got paid, and moved on with their lives.  Now, if they happened to have been sent to the interviewee by a family member, or a close friend, or been a part of an innovative or special project for the producer, then they might be remembered 55-60 years later.  But the odds of the producer being alive, with his full memory intact is slim, and the odds of those special circumstances are even slimmer.  So, we all must wait with patience for the grandchild, who can lead us to a child of the producer or one of the members, to comment on YouTube.

Yes, the record was pressed on The East Coast, and Monarch, in L.A., and if memory serves, at RCA in The Midwest.  It was fairly common to be around during its run, and to find throughout the late '60s and 1970s.  But, it wasn't played in Chicago that I can remember.  Maybe The Yank can confirm or deny that.  I remember it got a few plays on KGFJ in L.A.   Not sure about KDIA in The Bay Area.  But, I don't remember it charting in California.  I'd guess it probably charted in a few cities in The East.  It seems like the type of sound that would have done well in Pittsburgh (Mad Mike used to find rare/obscure R&B and Soul, and play it on his radio programme).  I guess it might also have had a chance in Baltimore and The Virginia and North Carolina Shore Areas, as well - also, maybe in Buffalo, NY.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Robbk

[Blackpoolsoul]

20 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Is Mike Lewis still around?  Artie Butler probably wouldn't remember who  they were.  He arranged sessions for hundreds and hundreds of groups.  Last I remember, he was operating a recording studio in North Hollywood.  We (Airwave Records) used his studio several times during the early 1980s.  I imagine he'd be about 82-85 years old now, and not remember that group, just like Joe Hunter didn't remember who was in the original Dramatics, and Robert Bateman and Robert Gordy didn't remember the names of many of the people that crossed their paths 50+ years before being interviewed about them.  To people working every day in The Music Business, it was just their job, and they worked on hundreds or even possibly thousands of recordings.  They weren't historians and cataloguers and trivia experts like serious, big-time record collectors are.  To them, most recording sessions and record projects over a long career were just the daily details of their work.  They didn't spend time memorising all of them.  They did their work, got paid, and moved on with their lives.  Now, if they happened to have been sent to the interviewee by a family member, or a close friend, or been a part of an innovative or special project for the producer, then they might be remembered 55-60 years later.  But the odds of the producer being alive, with his full memory intact is slim, and the odds of those special circumstances are even slimmer.  So, we all must wait with patience for the grandchild, who can lead us to a child of the producer or one of the members, to comment on YouTube.

Yes, the record was pressed on The East Coast, and Monarch, in L.A., and if memory serves, at RCA in The Midwest.  It was fairly common to be around during its run, and to find throughout the late '60s and 1970s.  But, it wasn't played in Chicago that I can remember.  Maybe The Yank can confirm or deny that.  I remember it got a few plays on KGFJ in L.A.   Not sure about KDIA in The Bay Area.  But, I don't remember it charting in California.  I'd guess it probably charted in a few cities in The East.  It seems like the type of sound that would have done well in Pittsburgh (Mad Mike used to find rare/obscure R&B and Soul, and play it on his radio programme).  I guess it might also have had a chance in Baltimore and The Virginia and North Carolina Shore Areas, as well - also, maybe in Buffalo, NY.

Indeed and I haven't been able to track Mike down (as yet). Your point about the passing of time, workload and memory is understandable, but as I mentioned previously about Peoples Choice, I have only just managed to find out the line up after searching for over 20 years (it started with Jimmy Mack), so its worth it on occasions.

I am also trying to get the Villa Records story (Checkerboard Squares and Magicians) and one of the owners is in his 80's and asked me to be very patient as it was a "long time ago".

The Stoppers may defeat us, as I mentioned before, but we might get the group's names on here, it would be nice

[Robbk]

20 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Indeed and I haven't been able to track Mike down (as yet). Your point about the passing of time, workload and memory is understandable, but as I mentioned previously about Peoples Choice, I have only just managed to find out the line up after searching for over 20 years (it started with Jimmy Mack), so its worth it on occasions.

I am also trying to get the Villa Records story (Checkerboard Squares and Magicians) and one of the owners is in his 80's and asked me to be very patient as it was a "long time ago".

The Stoppers may defeat us, as I mentioned before, but we might get the group's names on here, it would be nice

Weren't The Checkerboard Squares from Detroit?  I know a few Detroit musicians still around who played in instrumental groups in Detroit back in the '60s (Ralph and Russ Terrana, Denis Coffey, Stu Bass), I'll ask them if they know who The Checkerboard Squares were, and how to contact any of them.

You can't succeed if you don't try.  So, I agree that it is always worth trying, especially if one has the time.  Better to track down people while they are still alive, and their memories are still intact, than after they are gone.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Robbk

[Mike]

6 hours ago, Robbk said:

 

WOW!  I recognise THAT voice!  I'm sure I have several other records by him.  But, unfortunately, I can't connect a name to him.  I've always liked that rich, full voice.  I'd bet I even have at least a few of his group's best songs on some of my hand-made cassette tapes.  But, I no longer have a functioning cassette player, nor the time to sit through hundreds of tapes to find the group, even if I would buy a new cassette deck and have it shipped to me.

No!  This guy's voice is too different from Jimmy Beaumont's.  The Stoppers' lead has a much richer, more full voice, with vibrato that I've never heard in Beaumont's voice.  And yes, The Stoppers' "Come Back Baby" was pressed on styrene at Monarch.  I can see the temptation to think it might be Jimmy Beaumont because he worked with Mike Lewis and Stu Weiner, and Artie Butler not long after, or very near the same time.  But the voices are just too different.

how about Jimmie Ross who shared lead duties as a member of 'The Jaggerz'

here's him on lead

 

[Simon T]

5 hours ago, Robbk said:

To MY ears, the background group's chorus members sound Caucasian or, possibly Latino, while the single falsetto voice sounds Black, and the lead singer could be Caucasian, Laztino, or Afro-American.  I lived in Ghettos in Chicago, L.A. and S.F. Bay Area, and Lily White suburbs in all 3 cities, as well.  And living in California, one hears a LOT of Latinos speaking.  And so, I am rarely wrong about voices and accents.  I don't remember a group with such a make-up.  But New York Metro Area had Spanish Harlem, with both Black Latinos, and mestizo Latinos.  So, ALL the different combinations are possible.  This group is really tough to peg. I thought of this group simply as another Black Soul group, since buying the record in the late mid '60s.  But Brooklyn was filled with mixed groups of all 3 "races".  So, it would be difficult to get any leads from their overall sound.  We'd need to recognise an  individual's voice, or we need to find a relative or friend of one of the group on their YouTube record posting, otherwise we likely won't ever know who they were.

la la side

[Tlscapital]

9 minutes ago, Simon T said:

la la side

My favorite side but the problem remains the same somehow. The lead singer is still barely humming the tune (to great effect none the less) into the mike with that little reverb effects. All this making it even harder for anyone to hear more envidently who he is if he's known at all for example...

Not pushing the voice beyond recognition if he could sing louder that is. And now if he would be black I would search on the crooner or cabaret side of artistry. But if white in the pop/rock/soul singer category. Yet he could also be a second rate or almost unknown back-up studio like artlst...

[Kenb]

2 hours ago, Source said:

how about Jimmie Ross who shared lead duties as a member of 'The Jaggerz'

here's him on lead

 

That's an interesting shout you Source folks have put forward.

Jimmy Ross joined Jimmy Beaumont & The Skyliners in 1975. (the orig line-up (Mabray, Iris, etc)Jaggerz broke up New Years eve 1975)

Edited December 11, 2021 by Kenb
spelling

[Simon T]

Right, everyone has a punt at 5p a go. By the time the real identity is confirmed, the prize pot with be worth several thousand pounds.

Here's my 5p worth:

The Knight Brothers - Jimmy Diggs & Richard Dunbar - but knowing my luck, Richard is the one with the higher vocal!

 

[The Yank]

8 hours ago, Robbk said:

Weren't The Checkerboard Squares from Detroit?  I know a few Detroit musicians still around who played in instrumental groups in Detroit back in the '60s (Ralph and Russ Terrana, Denis Coffey, Stu Bass), I'll ask them if they know who The Checkerboard Squares were, and how to contact any of them.

  The Checkerboard Squares were based in San Francisco. The group was made up of Billy and Bernie Rivera, Billy Schwartz, George Whitsell and of course Frank Jones.  Various horn players like Jerry Martini and Jerry Gilmore were also used. 

      The Squares on "Double Cookin' " were basically the Frank  Jones Sextet with some assistance from moonlighting players from the San Francisco Symphony. 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

3 hours ago, Kenb said:

That's an interesting shout you Source folks have put forward.

Jimmy Ross joined Jimmy Beaumont & The Skyliners in 1975. (the orig line-up (Mabray, Iris, etc)Jaggerz broke up New Years eve 1975)

I think the Jaggerz break up was a little later, around '77. Sam Ippolito, former front man for The Teardrops on Max "Every Step I take", joined the Jaggerz in 76 and was vocalist until '77. I was told this when doing the research for the Teardrops article.

Some info on Jimmy Ross

https://sites.google.com/site/pittsburghmusichistory/pittsburgh-music-story/vocalists/jimmie-ross

Andy

[The Yank]

9 hours ago, Robbk said:

I

Yes, the record was pressed on The East Coast, and Monarch, in L.A., and if memory serves, at RCA in The Midwest.  It was fairly common to be around during its run, and to find throughout the late '60s and 1970s.  But, it wasn't played in Chicago that I can remember.  Maybe The Yank can confirm or deny that.  I remember it got a few plays on KGFJ in L.A.   Not sure about KDIA in The Bay Area.  But, I don't remember it charting in California.  I'd guess it probably charted in a few cities in The East.  It seems like the type of sound that would have done well in Pittsburgh (Mad Mike used to find rare/obscure R&B and Soul, and play it on his radio programme).  I guess it might also have had a chance in Baltimore and The Virginia and North Carolina Shore Areas, as well - also, maybe in Buffalo, NY.

  Jubilee promoted the record taking out ads in all three trades (Billboard, Cashbox and Record World) but I can't find any evidence of "Come Back Baby" really taking off anywhere. This ad is from the March 12, 1966 issue of Record World.

 

[Robbk]

46 minutes ago, The Yank said:

  The Checkerboard Squares were based in San Francisco. The group was made up of Billy and Bernie Rivera, Billy Schwartz, George Whitsell and of course Frank Jones.  Various horn players like Jerry Martini and Jerry Gilmore were also used. 

      The Squares on "Double Cookin' " were basically the Frank  Jones Sextet with some assistance from moonlighting players from the San Francisco Symphony. 

Thanks!  That rumour that they were from Detroit probably occurred very early in its play on the Northern soul scene, when the song was still covered up as Bob Wilson and The Golden Strings - and thought possibly to be a really rare , recalled, or non issued San Remo Golden Strings cut.  And that stayed in my memory, and I never knew that it was revealed that they were a Bay Area group.  "Double Cookin' " does sound a bit like a Detroit instrumental.

I'm also not all that surprised that it didn't sell or chart even in the rare record market in Pittsburgh, given that it got no airplay in Chicago, and only a couple test plays in L.A.  So, Jubilee-Josie distributed it to all 3 big regions in USA, but it probably just sat in the distributorships, or in the stores of a few of the biggest Soul record shops.  After hearing the La La side again, which I probably only played once after buying the record, and never again, I feel that it might very well be a Latino group (Spanish Harlem Puerto Rican?) (It has an East L.A. Chicano sound to it).  So, I might have found it in a bargain bin in Wendzel's Music Town or in a Boyle Heights or East L.A, thrift shop.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

3 hours ago, Simon T said:

Right, everyone has a punt at 5p a go. By the time the real identity is confirmed, the prize pot with be worth several thousand pounds.

Here's my 5p worth:

The Knight Brothers - Jimmy Diggs & Richard Dunbar - but knowing my luck, Richard is the one with the higher vocal!

 

I don't hear EITHER of their voices in "Come Back Baby" or "La La".  After hearing both sides of the record so many times in the last 15 hours, I now think it is a Latino (Puerto Rican) group from Spanish Harlem, The Bronx, or Brooklyn.  Jimmy Diggs' voice is deeper than  Come Back Baby's lead, and doesn't have the vibratto, and unique accent, and the high voice is much fuller and richer and much more sung from the diaphragm than the lightly sung-from-the-throat style of all the high key background singers on "Come Back baby".  The tonal qualities of of The Knight Brothers are just too different from any voices I hear in "Come Back Baby".  Also, it would seem really unlikely that The Knight Brothers, who were very hot in Chicago, with Chess in 1966, would also get a concurrent recording placed with New York's Jubilee Records, who had no office in Chicago.  Why would they go record in New York for Mike Lewis, when they had a good thing going with Chess?  I know that weirder things than that happened on occasion.  But, I really doubt that such a thing happened, and the voices are just too different, to make it even possible.

[Simon T]

8 minutes ago, Robbk said:

I don't hear EITHER of their voices in "Come Back Baby" or "La La".  After hearing both sides of the record so many times in the last 15 hours, I now think it is a Latino (Puerto Rican) group from Spanish Harlem, The Bronx, or Brooklyn.  Jimmy Diggs' voice is deeper than  Come Back Baby's lead, and doesn't have the vibratto, and unique accent, and the high voice is much fuller and richer and much more sung from the diaphragm than the lightly sung-from-the-throat style of all the high key background singers on "Come Back baby".  The tonal qualities of of The Knight Brothers are just too different from any voices I hear in "Come Back Baby".  Also, it would seem really unlikely that The Knight Brothers, who were very hot in Chicago, with Chess in 1966, would also get a concurrent recording placed with New York's Jubilee Records, who had no office in Chicago.  Why would they go record in New York for Mike Lewis, when they had a good thing going with Chess?  I know that weirder things than that happened on occasion.  But, I really doubt that such a thing happened, and the voices are just too different, to make it even possible.

It was a tounge-in-cheek post Rob.

[Robbk]

10 minutes ago, Simon T said:

It was a tounge-in-cheek post Rob.

Ha! Ha!  And who would ever guess that I've been a comedy writer since 1984? 

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Simon T said:

It was a tounge-in-cheek post Rob.

Not funny. Even you're dog thinks your humor is killing this very serious thread !

[Simon T]

3 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Not funny. Even you're dog thinks your humor is killing this very serious thread !

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Simon T

[Simon T]

7 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Not funny. Even you're dog thinks your humor is killing this very serious thread !

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Simon T

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 11/12/2021 at 17:20, The Yank said:

  Jubilee promoted the record taking out ads in all three trades (Billboard, Cashbox and Record World) but I can't find any evidence of "Come Back Baby" really taking off anywhere. This ad is from the March 12, 1966 issue of Record World.

 

I think this is Stu and if anyone is a member they may be able to get in touch

https://www.linkedin.com/in/wiener-stu-b076154

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 11/12/2021 at 17:05, The Yank said:

  The Checkerboard Squares were based in San Francisco. The group was made up of Billy and Bernie Rivera, Billy Schwartz, George Whitsell and of course Frank Jones.  Various horn players like Jerry Martini and Jerry Gilmore were also used. 

      The Squares on "Double Cookin' " were basically the Frank  Jones Sextet with some assistance from moonlighting players from the San Francisco Symphony. 

This info is amazing and conflicts what I was told a million years ago.

Have you a source please (I am not doubting you )

[Robbk]

9 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This info is amazing and conflicts what I was told a million years ago.

Have you a source please (I am not doubting you )

I asked about this on Soulful Detroit Forum, and NONE of the old-time Detroiters knew about The Checkerboard Squares, or "Double Cookin' ".  I also found out that Villa Records of The Magicians, Checkerboard Squares, and Oz & The Spurlings was located in The Bay Area, (not the same yellow label as Pancho Villa's Philadelphia label).  Furthermore, the poster stated that all 3 of the groups I mentioned above were manifestations of the same band, with The Magicians and Oz and The Spurlings acting as the band singers in a combined all-in one, self-contained instrumental/vocalists' band.  It appears to me that The West Coast Villa label was a regional, California only - distributed label (or possibly a slightly wider West Coast distribution).  We never got "Double Cookin' " in Chicago, and i don't remember ever seeing The Magicians' records in shops there.  Out of the half million or more records I looked through there over 15 years, i may have seen one used/beat copy in a thrift shop once, that must have been brought there by someone who moved from California.  I'm guessing that Oz and The Spurlings were the actual Musicians singing, and The Magicians were a regular singing group that teamed up with The Frank Jones Sextette plus a few added strings and percussion musicians to form a band/vocalist self-contained band, like E.J. and The Echoes.

[The Yank]

9 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

This info is amazing and conflicts what I was told a million years ago.

Have you a source please (I am not doubting you )

       Yes- the liner notes from this CD - 

 

[Robbk]

Yes! The Northern Soul Scene thought "Double Cookin' " sounded a LOT like Motown, not helped by Simon Soussan covering it up as by "Bob Wilson and The Golden Strings", implying that it might have been an unreleased San Remo Golden Strings cut (with several Funk Brothers playing on it).

 

And, I had thought California's Villa Records was the same label as Pancho Villa's yellow Villa Records of Philadelphia, because they both had the same name and label colour.  I figured that Pancho leased The Checkerboard Squares' cuts from a producer from another state (Detroit or Washington D.C.), and that The Magicians were a Philly group.  I'm surprised it took me all these years to find out the truth.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Robbk

[The Yank]

30 minutes ago, Robbk said:

  It appears to me that The West Coast Villa label was a regional, California only - distributed label (or possibly a slightly wider West Coast distribution).  We never got "Double Cookin' " in Chicago, and i don't remember ever seeing The Magicians' records in shops there.  

  At some point,(and I don't know exactly when) Cameo/ Parkway started distributing the Villa label' The article appeared in the Oct. 22, 1966 issue of Billboard. If you look at the label of the 45, you can tell C/P was involved - 

[The Yank]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

  I'm guessing that Oz and The Spurlings were the actual Musicians singing, and The Magicians were a regular singing group that teamed up with The Frank Jones Sextette plus a few added strings and percussion musicians to form a band/vocalist self-contained band, like E.J. and The Echoes.

Ozz and the Spurlings were Ruby Jones, Irene Robertson and Jess "Ozz" Osborne and were not part of 

the Frank Jones Sextet. The Magicians were a regular vocal group - members were Toussaint Street, Neil Stallings, Larry Holmes and Clement Briellard.

[Blackpoolsoul]

12 hours ago, The Yank said:

  At some point,(and I don't know exactly when) Cameo/ Parkway started distributing the Villa label' The article appeared in the Oct. 22, 1966 issue of Billboard. If you look at the label of the 45, you can tell C/P was involved - 

There must have been 2 runs ?

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Blackpoolsoul

[Robbk]

12 hours ago, The Yank said:

Ozz and the Spurlings were Ruby Jones, Irene Robertson and Jess "Ozz" Osborne and were not part of 

the Frank Jones Sextet. The Magicians were a regular vocal group - members were Toussaint Street, Neil Stallings, Larry Holmes and Clement Briellard.

The 2nd I knew, but the poster on Soulful Detroit stated that all were part of The extended Sextette, appearing together as a self-contained group, not needing musicians supplied by the venue.  So, I had guessed that The Magicians (who also recorded for other labels) joined together with The Frank Jones Band(Sextette plus added strings, horns, and percussion) to form the self-contained band/vocal act. 

[Robbk]

13 hours ago, The Yank said:

  At some point,(and I don't know exactly when) Cameo/ Parkway started distributing the Villa label' The article appeared in the Oct. 22, 1966 issue of Billboard. If you look at the label of the 45, you can tell C/P was involved - 

My copy, and all the copies, of that record, and all the other Villa Magicians' records I've ever seen were the yellow label versions on the independent Villa, asnd orange labels on The Cameo-Parkway distributed issues.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Robbk