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10 hours ago, crogger said:

So, I have now purchased two records,from different sellers,since 1/1/21.The first one totalled $140-67,with postage,no vat,the second one was $170-50 plus $34-50 vat. The vat is not only being charged on the purchase cost but on the USA postage cost as well! I used to be registered for vat,a long time ago,then you had to provide an invoice with your vat number displayed and you had to be the seller of the goods.Does this mean that eBay are the sellers and should provide us with a vat number?As boring as all this sounds,things have probably changed since my day and you’d have to imagine thar eBay and HMRC have got together and come up with this.Also what are the ramifications with regard to the actual postage costs? Are you still going to get a relatively expensive record sent for$15? In addition,what happens when the expensive record lands in theUK,will it be subject to more scrutiny? Watch this space! Apologies for sounding like the (Prophet of Doom).

Clive.

Likewise when I was VAT registered years ago I had to have my registration number on every invoice. Woe betide if a VAT inspector picked up that you were charging or even mentioning VAT without doing this. I even had my number on the bottom of my letter heads as 'belt & braces'. 

So you are right, unless the rules have changed how can eBay charge VAT on behalf of a seller who is not VAT registered ?........... unless ebay are actually  the buyer & then selling it on to us the purchasers ?

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If it's the case that Ebay is going to add 20% vat on any record I purchase from the States,that is going to go a long way to curing me of the madness that is record collecting !

ah, looking like those links are informative Online marketplaces (OMPs), where they are involved in facilitating the sale, will be responsible for collecting and accounting for the VAT."   

No, a mate. Cheaper postage having US buys collected together and sent in bulk [40+ albums say] than paying USA to UK postage on each individual item.

Posted

 

10 hours ago, crogger said:

So, I have now purchased two records,from different sellers,since 1/1/21.The first one totalled $140-67,with postage,no vat,the second one was $170-50 plus $34-50 vat. The vat is not only being charged on the purchase cost but on the USA postage cost as well! I used to be registered for vat,a long time ago,then you had to provide an invoice with your vat number displayed and you had to be the seller of the goods.Does this mean that eBay are the sellers and should provide us with a vat number?As boring as all this sounds,things have probably changed since my day and you’d have to imagine thar eBay and HMRC have got together and come up with this.Also what are the ramifications with regard to the actual postage costs? Are you still going to get a relatively expensive record sent for$15? In addition,what happens when the expensive record lands in theUK,will it be subject to more scrutiny? Watch this space! Apologies for sounding like the (Prophet of Doom).

Clive.

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13 minutes ago, Merve said:

Likewise when I was VAT registered years ago I had to have my registration number on every invoice. Woe betide if a VAT inspector picked up that you were charging or even mentioning VAT without doing this. I even had my number on the bottom of my letter heads as 'belt & braces'. 

So you are right, unless the rules have changed how can eBay charge VAT on behalf of a seller who is not VAT registered ?........... unless ebay are actually  the buyer & then selling it on to us the purchasers ?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

the rules have changed though

soulof earlier post may be helpful to you both...

 

On 04/01/2021 at 18:43, Soulof said:
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

another link

 

Online marketplaces (OMPs), where they are involved in facilitating the sale, will be responsible for collecting and accounting for the VAT."

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Posted (edited)

I for one will no longer make purchase via ebay.. total rip off !! As stated earlier, if the actual seller of the goods is not vat registered how the hell can ebay apply VAT when they are not the owner of the goods ?!?

Are ebay supplying vat invoices with each sale to UK destinations ??

Talk about a scam..

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17 minutes ago, Ficklefingers said:

I for one will no longer make purchase via ebay.. total rip off !! As stated earlier, if the actual seller of the goods is not vat registered how the hell can ebay apply VAT when they are not the owner of the goods ?!?

Are ebay supplying vat invoices with each sale to UK destinations ??

Talk about a scam..

 

maybe have a read of the links posted earlier

they sort of say how it works

to me it reads as its a uk govt thing not ebay/discogs etc

 

here are

Background

At the end of the transition period, the government will introduce a new model for the VAT treatment of goods arriving into Great Britain from outside of the UK. This will ensure that goods from EU and non-EU countries are treated in the same way and that UK businesses are not disadvantaged by competition from VAT free imports. It will also improve the effectiveness of VAT collection on imported goods and address the problem of overseas sellers failing to pay the right amount of VAT on sales of goods that are already in the UK at the point of sale.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

 

 

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Posted
8 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I am no expert on VAT however I am guessing that HMRC and the like are using OMP's to collect the VAT as it was more difficult via the delivery service at the door and it's actually quite clever as buyers were often asking the seller to lower the value on customs to avoid tax on arrival, (You buyers know who you are !!!!)

As for the "error" on one of your purchases I assume you have messaged for an explantation and will let us know what they say please

 

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All sorts of angles coming home to roost - tax on a tax as I said at page 1/1 - you can't win other than with your feet from these transactions - Royal Mail were challenged in court over charging end customer for collecting fee on behalf of HRMC and LOST - Customer contested on the basis that if the import duty / VAT was heading to HRMC then get the fee from them and WON - He had snatched the mail from the sorting office - refused to pay - RMail took him to court to recover their £8  - Royal Mail walked away and completely ignored this precedent on the basis their pockets were deeper than most customers and they wouldn't be challenged again, and they were right. Definition of antique also in there / death and taxes - unavoidable - as for ebay remitting to HRMC - who knows - I guess we all like a bargain and taking the risk on insurance / values was always one of the risks worth taking.

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Posted

First record £108-23 ,no vat.Second record £160-32 inc.vat.Somebody mentioned £135 cut-off point above and below? I don,t think I’ll be querying the possible ‘error’,just in case!!

Clive.

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Well, maybe with this extra charge we might see a drop in end prices. I seriously doubt this though. As we've seen with the global shipping prices there seems to be a large amount of bidders who just don't seem to care about this extra cost. I've long since given up hope of winning much anymore and the only results I've had these last few years are on bits poorly listed.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, John A said:

Well, maybe with this extra charge we might see a drop in end prices. I seriously doubt this though. As we've seen with the global shipping prices there seems to be a large amount of bidders who just don't seem to care about this extra cost. I've long since given up hope of winning much anymore and the only results I've had these last few years are on bits poorly listed.

I agree, it's like someone who is a collector works for the HMRC (yuk)

If prices fall or don't and the HMRC take their 20% they will be happy and the OMP companies profits will drop and if they did pay tax they will pay less so HMRC will get less (Dughhhhh!!!)

Why does anybody still not realise that everything has 2 sides just like a coin.

I do think though that Ebay, Discogs and others will lose out to Facebook in the long term as people switch to no fees (of course Paypal will then start charging for friends and family !!!)

It may be of interest to some to read the stuff on tax in Australia which started 2018

https://www.avalara.com/us/en/blog/2018/08/australian-consumers-suffer-limited-shopping-over-taxes.html

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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The 20% is not VAT it is import tax at the VAT rate, so ebay are not collecting VAT and your are not paying VAT, this is what I have been told by customs.

We have had this imposed on us in Guernsey for the last 5-6 years with any good going in to the UK.

Guernsey post collect the 20% UK import tax at the post office when you go in to post your records and then give it to the UK Government. I dont know if the UK Government give Guernsey post anything for collecting their taxes for them, but it does stop your records being impounded all the time and a fine on top.

I am more annoyed about that e-bay have included Guernsey with the UK 20% import tax when we don't have an import tax. I managed to speak to someone at E-Bay and they are rectifying their automated system. The guy I spoke to was very helpful and also explained that it was a new system and that they have a lot of initial problems with it and many many complaints to get through.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, Andyontherock said:

The 20% is not VAT it is import tax at the VAT rate, so ebay are not collecting VAT and your are not paying VAT, this is what I have been told by customs.

We have had this imposed on us in Guernsey for the last 5-6 years with any good going in to the UK.

Guernsey post collect the 20% UK import tax at the post office when you go in to post your records and then give it to the UK Government. I dont know if the UK Government give Guernsey post anything for collecting their taxes for them, but it does stop your records being impounded all the time and a fine on top.

I am more annoyed about that e-bay have included Guernsey with the UK 20% import tax when we don't have an import tax. I managed to speak to someone at E-Bay and they are rectifying their automated system. The guy I spoke to was very helpful and also explained that it was a new system and that they have a lot of initial problems with it and many many complaints to get through.

That's really useful and is it possible you can give us an example as to show us the difference please as I do wonder if some (like me) don't understand the difference but will and only will with a lot of numbers written down to tell 😀 ((This is a bit like doing my kids homework)

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3 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

That's really useful and is it possible you can give us an example as to show us the difference please as I do wonder if some (like me) don't understand the difference but will and only will with a lot of numbers written down to tell 😀 ((This is a bit like doing my kids homework. at first I have no idea)

 

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Posted
22 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

 

Whatever the tax is it’s starting to cost long term wants and  rare rebuys I may not see again for many years.

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Import tax on new stuff is fair enough, because its very likely to be reciprocal on a country by country basis until a trade deal is reached. However it only helps tax departments, not individuals.

Protects  industries aparantly...and a stealth tax, which is always popular.

On second hand goods though, I think its ridiculous.

Still, there's much much more to come to fill the void in public finances.

Ed

 

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Most of the big E-Bay sellers such as Paperstax  seem to list it under the bidding price as 20% VAT applicable.It's a pernicious tax really.Wasn't it around 3% when it was first introduced? All the big auction houses over here Christies etc and middling ones had a buyers premium of around 35% when I last looked.There was no such thing 30 odd years ago but I suppose many of the clients they cater for are the fattest of fat cats!!John(Manship) is the Sotheby's equivalent of Northern Soul Auctioneers.

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On 13/01/2021 at 10:01, Merve said:

Likewise when I was VAT registered years ago I had to have my registration number on every invoice. Woe betide if a VAT inspector picked up that you were charging or even mentioning VAT without doing this. I even had my number on the bottom of my letter heads as 'belt & braces'. 

So you are right, unless the rules have changed how can eBay charge VAT on behalf of a seller who is not VAT registered ?........... unless ebay are actually  the buyer & then selling it on to us the purchasers ?

 

Just paid for an item got value in it this is the invoice  never trust the tories

$31.00

Shipping$14.75

VAT$9.15

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Posted
14 hours ago, mithras said:

 

Just paid for an item got value in it this is the invoice  never trust the tories

$31.00

Shipping$14.75

VAT$9.15

And here is an example of letting them win.  It's surely no good complaining if you are going to then pay it.

If everyone cancelled the orders then they would reverse the policy.

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Posted
On 09/01/2021 at 20:30, John A said:

So they're charging VAT on the shipping as well? 😡 I ain't half glad I don't buy nowhere near as much from the U.S. As I used to.

They always did John. The total cost was used by HMGov and collected by Royal Mail

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Price of British ( not sure about NI) sourced records may have just gone up!

It will all be sorted when the promised oven ready trade deals get fixed.

Ed

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Posted (edited)

If US Ebay sellers are part of the Global Shipping Program its easy for Ebay to collect the tax (they do already). But what if Ebay sellers are not part of the program and do their own shipping....how does that work as they can declare whatever they want ?

I ordered some records from a dealer in the US last week...never mentioned VAT/Tax. But yesterday I order a 45 and got the message that VAT would be charged.

The rules also say that overseas businesses will have to register for collection of the VAT charge. Are small time record dealers going to do that ?

It seems there are also deviations allowed..as per Gov website (my emphasis)

The new arrangements mean that import VAT will no longer be collected on consignments not exceeding £135, except for the following types of consignment, which are outside the scope of the new arrangements:

non-commercial consignments, such as gifts (gift relief for consignments valued up to £39 will remain)

 Q: can seller can send 45 as a gift with reduced value and non VAT ?

consignments containing any goods that are subject to an excise duty

Q are 45's subject to a duty (I think from experience they are) so if there is does this mean they cannot tax as well ?

consignments from Jersey and Guernsey that are covered by the Import VAT Accounting Scheme

I'm confused and I think many US dealer will be also.

Edited by Billy Jo Jim Bob
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Posted
1 hour ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

If US Ebay sellers are part of the Global Shipping Program its easy for Ebay to collect the tax (they do already). But what if Ebay sellers are not part of the program and do their own shipping....how does that work as they can declare whatever they want ?

I ordered some records from a dealer in the US last week...never mentioned VAT/Tax. But yesterday I order a 45 and got the message that VAT would be charged.

The rules also say that overseas businesses will have to register for collection of the VAT charge. Are small time record dealers going to do that ?

It seems there are also deviations allowed..as per Gov website (my emphasis)

The new arrangements mean that import VAT will no longer be collected on consignments not exceeding £135, except for the following types of consignment, which are outside the scope of the new arrangements:

non-commercial consignments, such as gifts (gift relief for consignments valued up to £39 will remain)

 Q: can seller can send 45 as a gift with reduced value and non VAT ?

consignments containing any goods that are subject to an excise duty

Q are 45's subject to a duty (I think from experience they are) so if there is does this mean they cannot tax as well ?

consignments from Jersey and Guernsey that are covered by the Import VAT Accounting Scheme

I'm confused and I think many US dealer will be also.

I can answer question about gift. If anyone sells a record it can NEVER be a gift (that's fraud)

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I can answer question about gift. If anyone sells a record it can NEVER be a gift (that's fraud)

Thanks for your answer which I was aware of. I was asking in relation to my statement that the small record dealers / shops will not want to register for the UK tax system - too much hassle and expense for them as a small business. One option would be to call it a gift, but the value still has to be declared. Under £39 does not attract tax if declared as a gift, so would they choose to go that way and avoid the hassle of more administration around UK taxation ?

Edited by Billy Jo Jim Bob
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Posted
22 hours ago, mithras said:

 

Just paid for an item got value in it this is the invoice  never trust the tories

$31.00

Shipping$14.75

VAT$9.15

Shocking. Will buy a cheapie of eBay tonight from someone NOT on their shipping programe to see how it pans out 

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Noticed that on the same sellers sales,some records state that they will be subject to vat and others don't-confused or what !

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1 hour ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

Thanks for your answer which I was aware of. I was asking in relation to my statement that the small record dealers / shops will not want to register for the UK tax system - too much hassle and expense for them as a small business. One option would be to call it a gift, but the value still has to be declared. Under £39 does not attract tax if declared as a gift, so would they choose to go that way and avoid the hassle of more administration around UK taxation ?

To be fair I think anyway anyone can avoid tax is why the powers that be are using Paypal on OMPs to collect the tax up front.

As for small businesses I don't honestly know the answer, but I do know that filling in the value is a waste of time if anyone wants compensation for claims as Royal Mail and other shipping companies only pay out the "original" cost of the item, so it's all a complete mess anyway. If you paid a £1 and sell it for £50 you might as well put £1 as that's all they have to pay

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Martin Phillips said:

A friend from America who sells on Discogs asked me if I knew if he could still show a lower value on the customs form??

Discogs has not implemented anything yet (EU) (UK in) as far as I know after July 2021.

When it happens Discogs will do it so Customs forms won't make any difference.

This is why they changed the shipping policies (automatic) I believe and the Paypal thing to facilitate future changes

They started charging VAT on the fees some years ago (that messed up at first) and have already implemented Australia (In) and USA (In) (depending on States) taxes up front (or not depending on rules,)

Edited by Blackpoolsoul
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Posted

This is an on line calculator for the UK tax system.

Might give people an idea on what charges to expect.

https://www.simplyduty.com/import-calculator/

I did a couple of test calculations based on importing 1 x 45 rpm vinyl record at varying costs to the UK paying in USD. It seems no duty on 45's is payable, but it will be 20% of the record cost + shipping cost. 

So for example if a 45 is say 500 USD and shipping 16 USD it would be:

500 + 16 = 516 @ 20% VAT would be 103.2 USD making your actual payment 619.2 USD.

Then of course if Royal Mail have to collect it from you another £8 will be payable.

 

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Have done it this way to protect the seller as the auction is still live.

Add the figures up its crazy. You end up paying $30 for a $10 record. So, to make it worth while buying (assuming the record is worth say $20) the buyer would have to pay you to take it away !

 

Current bid:

US $9.99

Approximately £7.30

Enter US $10.49 or more

[ 1 bid ]

No additional import charges on delivery.

This item will be sent through the Global Shipping Programme and includes international tracking. Learn more- opens in a new window or tab

Postage:

US $19.55 (approx. £14.29) International Priority Shipping to United Kingdom  | See details

 

Item location:

Virginia Beach, Virginia, United States

 

Posts to:

United States and many other countries | See details

Import charges:

US $9.88 (estimated and based on current bid)  

Delivery:

Estimated between Wed. 27 Jan. and Sat. 6 Feb.  

Includes international tracking

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Posted
On 15/01/2021 at 18:54, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

This is an on line calculator for the UK tax system.

Might give people an idea on what charges to expect.

https://www.simplyduty.com/import-calculator/

 

 

The way the mail is running has anyone got anything from the US>UK  since The Deal?
In a straight sale of cheapies not though EBay Discogs etc does the above apply?
Using that calculator 4 or 5 45s total value $30 gets a VAT of GBP 7.92 and I'm assuming the Mail gets it's 8 for collecting it.
Is that right?
 

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Posted
3 hours ago, Mr Smithy said:

The way the mail is running has anyone got anything from the US>UK  since The Deal?
In a straight sale of cheapies not though EBay Discogs etc does the above apply?
Using that calculator 4 or 5 45s total value $30 gets a VAT of GBP 7.92 and I'm assuming the Mail gets it's 8 for collecting it.
Is that right?
 

I ordered something for 30$ on Thursday last week from a US record shop (not Ebay etc). The shop owner said they would be declaring value for VAT. This surprised me that an ordinary shop was so quick off the mark and up to speed. I haven't got it yet but I'm expecting the silver card from Royal Mail asking me to go to the sorting office to pay up and collect. Lets wait and see. In this case I'm not too fussed about it because the 45 was a bargain at that price.

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Posted
1 hour ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

I ordered something for 30$ on Thursday ......

Ok, we'll await the results. Be interesting to see how long it takes as well.
It's not surprising really, he's probably sold a 45 or 2 to the UK and even with the 24/7 folderol over here B------T snuck into the news.
It's not a big deal as a legit $30 45 + mail wouldn't normally set off any duties or PO charges, it's going to get interesting if they start opening and looking at top $ ones if someone puts $5 on it.
I'll await the news when it drops

It's all going to play hob with Auntie Ethel sending hand knitted gloves for their favourite neffies over

 

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Not about record purchases, but a very relevant story highlighting the perils of buying from the EU if you're in the UK...

Quote

Ellie Huddleston, a 26-year-old Londoner... placed an order for a coat and a number of blouses from two of her favourite clothes brands based in Europe.

But both deliveries were delayed, held up in customs checks for at least a week, she says. She was surprised when she then received a text from courier company DPD, containing a link asking her to pay £58 in customs duties, VAT and additional charges for her £180 order.

On top of that, the UPS courier for the second parcel showed up at her door several days later, asking for an extra payment of £82 for her £200 coat. These charges, imposed by new government rules, have to be collected by the courier firms on the authorities' behalf.

"...I sent both back without paying the extra fees and won't be ordering anything from Europe again any time soon," Ellie says.

Some firms have started charging additional "handling fees" to shoppers to cover costs associated with extra customs checks and paperwork that must be filled out.

Story here: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55734277

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12 hours ago, Mr Smithy said:

Ok, we'll await the results. Be interesting to see how long it takes as well.
It's not surprising really, he's probably sold a 45 or 2 to the UK and even with the 24/7 folderol over here B------T snuck into the news.
It's not a big deal as a legit $30 45 + mail wouldn't normally set off any duties or PO charges, it's going to get interesting if they start opening and looking at top $ ones if someone puts $5 on it.
I'll await the news when it drops

It's all going to play hob with Auntie Ethel sending hand knitted gloves for their favourite neffies over

 

$30 plus shipping at $16 would set off taxes normally as its above the 15 Pounds limit (postage is classified as part of the overall value) so this item would be regarded as a 46$ purchase. The only way round it would be to declare as a gift. However, to be honest Royal Mail don't really pursue the taxes unless its been flagged to them and to be fair they don't get flagged too often. 

I'll report back as its on a plane to the UK from Chicago UPS center right now. 

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2 hours ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Not about record purchases, but a very relevant story highlighting the perils of buying from the EU if you're in the UK...

Story here: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55734277

Well I did say everyone has been fooled by a "trade" deal (did the minions not realise that trade did not include them)

I also said that people should refuse the items at the door or get there money back (it will stop this)

I am amazed that this is happening, without the customer being made aware of the extra tax, before the goods are shipped, after all, wasn't it a new "law" that shipping is declared upfront before a an item purchased ?

A disgrace and is it legal ?

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1 hour ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

Royal Mail have always done it here Russ. They charge 8 pounds admin fee on any collection they have to make. 

Always done what? Perhaps I'm missing something, but prior to Brexit there were no domestic charges/duties on deliveries from the EU.

21 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

The Financial Times always has a good story

https://www.ft.com/content/bae02f57-a648-45fd-a774-6b341aa59caf

Seemingly only if you have a subscription.

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28 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

Always done what? Perhaps I'm missing something, but prior to Brexit there were no domestic charges/duties on deliveries from the EU.

Seemingly only if you have a subscription.

My apologies, seems like everything else in this world $$$$$$$$$

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4 hours ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

I'll report back as its on a plane to the UK from Chicago UPS center right now. 

Half way there, depending how long it faffs around in customs.
I'm sure we all await the upshot, be nice to get a real world result.

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Posted
On 12/01/2021 at 23:27, crogger said:

So, I have now purchased two records,from different sellers,since 1/1/21.The first one totalled $140-67,with postage,no vat,the second one was $170-50 plus $34-50 vat. The vat is not only being charged on the purchase cost but on the USA postage cost as well!...

Clive.

I’ve just been charged VAT based on postage costs and the price of a record. The dealer had difficulty switching to a US address so reluctantly I stumped up wasting $10 on the transaction. I think this is a real scam as postage charges relate to a service and not tangible goods. 

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13 hours ago, Bocanada said:

I've got one coming from EU still in transit. I'll report back probably next week when I get it.

Have been waiting for 2 cheapies to arrive from Germany (trusted seller) since early December so I wouldnt hold your breath............

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14 hours ago, Merve said:

Have been waiting for 2 cheapies to arrive from Germany (trusted seller) since early December so I wouldnt hold your breath............

Oh mate, don't get me all scared! This is no cheapie I've got in transit! :)

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Works both ways. I sent one to Italy on 16th December. Last heard of in Dublin! Why do the Post Office send their stuff to a sorting office in Ireland - surely Italy is closer to England? Obviously this was before Brexit.

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On 14/01/2021 at 15:05, Martin Phillips said:

All the big auction houses over here Christies etc and middling ones had a buyers premium of around 35% when I last looked.There was no such thing 30 odd years ago.

Auction house premiums are nothing to do with tax - that's just how they make their commission. They usually charge the seller 25% AND the buyer 25% - so they're basically getting 50% of the sale price just by auctioning the item. 

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No but you'll pay VAT on the buyers premium.Thirty five years ago you didn't have these perniciously high premiums.
       As far as E-Bay goes it doesn't seem to be deterring buyers.A record that sold in mint condition for 80 pounds last September on Discogs  is already almost double that price with nearly three days of the auction still left!!!!

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Posted
11 hours ago, Martin Phillips said:

No but you'll pay VAT on the buyers premium.Thirty five years ago you didn't have these perniciously high premiums.
       As far as E-Bay goes it doesn't seem to be deterring buyers.A record that sold in mint condition for 80 pounds last September on Discogs  is already almost double that price with nearly three days of the auction still left!!!!

Early days yet.

I think most people get eBay is adding on 20 % but are not quite sure whether there will then be extra charges from customs and the PO when packages arrive in the UK.

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