Wilson pickett-supremes

[Wheelsville1]

When the supremes did the backing on wilson picketts Let me be your boy,was it a case of them doing a moonlight? Chris. 

[Michael V]

I think it's  the good old Andantes singing with Wilson on  'Let Me Be Your Boy' .  I remember reading it somewhere and to me it certainly sounds much more like them than The Supremes

[Wheelsville1]

3 minutes ago, Michael V said:

I think it's  the good old Andantes singing with Wilson on  'Let Me Be Your Boy' .  I remember reading it somewhere and to me it certainly sounds much more like them than The Supremes

Its defo the supremes with Flo Ballard on lead. 

[Nick Soule]

Wilson Pickett’s single on Correc-tone is from 1962, and the Supremes first single on Motown is from 1961, so it seems like they were moonlighting. But all the information I’ve read about the Pickett recording always refers to them as The Primettes. Maybe it was recorded earlier than 1962?

[Wheelsville1]

33 minutes ago, Nick Soule said:

Wilson Pickett’s single on Correc-tone is from 1962, and the Supremes first single on Motown is from 1961, so it seems like they were moonlighting. But all the information I’ve read about the Pickett recording always refers to them as The Primettes. Maybe it was recorded earlier than 1962?

Thanks for the response,this is why i asked the question.Some say it was The Primettes and others The Supremes,if it was recorded in 1962 then they were definatley moonlighting. 

[Tlscapital]

FWIW 1962 is the year. Where they then "moonlighting" while not being a Tamla number one act yet... Naughty girls. I still prefer them Supremes that way.

Then the same goes for the following Correc-tone 'pop' tune of James Velvet 'bouquet of flowers' that is also collected by completists Supremes's fans. 

[The Yank]

In Mark Ribowsky's book  "The Supremes- A Saga Of .....", the author says the Primettes did backup work on the following songs- Eddie Floyd- "I'm Her Yo Yo Man", Wilson Pickett's "Let Me Be Your Boy", Gene Martin's "Lonely Nights", James Velvet's "Boquet Of Flowers", Al Garner's "All I Need Is You", James Dee's "My Pride", Don Revels "Return Of Stagger Lee" and "several songs by Gino Washington". 

 

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, The Yank said:

In Mark Ribowsky's book  "The Supremes- A Saga Of .....", the author says the Primettes did backup work on the following songs- Eddie Floyd- "I'm Her Yo Yo Man", Wilson Pickett's "Let Me Be Your Boy", Gene Martin's "Lonely Nights", James Velvet's "Boquet Of Flowers", Al Garner's "All I Need Is You", James Dee's "My Pride", Don Revels "Return Of Stagger Lee" and "several songs by Gino Washington". 

 

I talked to people from Detroit, connected with Motown, or knowing people there, and being in the business themselves about Correc-Tone, and The Supremes' involvement.  Yes, they were moonlighting there in early 1962.  Their recordings were made during spring 1962, backing Wilson Pickett, and probably James Velvet (ex-Satintone James Ellis?).  I don't believe they were the backing group of Gino Washington on "I'm a Coward" (or any other song of his). I had always heard that The Rochelles (who backed him with credits on his 1964 Amon and Wand releases), who were his friends in high school, and also were in his club review act, backed him whenever he had a female back-up group, at least through 1966.  The pre-Supremes, as The Primettes did all their back-up work for Robert West in late 1959 and early 1960, all in Detroit.  Everything I read about the late 1962-early 1963 Enrica release said that it was recorded in New York, and James Duddley (AKA Dudley) was at that time, a New York Artist (although originally from The South), and those Primettes were a New York group, with no connection to Detroit, and the name was used without any knowledge of Robert West's Lupine Primettes, whose name was unknown because, even when West had his late release of their Lupine record to take advantage of The Supremes' Motown success, it was only distributed in Michigan and Ohio.  No one in New York would have heard of them. 

I believe that The Enrica record was only listed as being The Pre-Supremes because of the group name, but never seen any evidence that The Detroit group had anything to do with that record. And I can't believe Detroit's Supremes (ex-Primettes) went to New York to record those Enrica cuts, which were certainly recorded after The Supremes were contracted to Motown.  That CERTAINLY would have come out some time during the last  55 years.

Wilbur Golden saw that saw that Motown was doing well, and that Ed Wingate, who had also entered the business recently, was enjoying running expenses through his record business to his advantage, regardless of whether or not he made money on selling the records, he decided he wanted to enter the record business, too.  He secretly approached Brian and Eddie Holland, and Popcorn Wylie, and got them to agree to come work for him at his new record company.  Robert Bateman said that Brian and Eddie came to him and told him that Golden offered them a good regular monthly salary to operate his new record company, as songwriters, producers and A&R men, and to also set a a new recording studio.  They agreed to jump ship from Motown to work for him.  He had asked them to get more of Motown's crew to come and join them at the new label.

So Bateman said with that option open to him, he went to Berry Gordy and asked him for a regular salary at the level Golden offered, and Gordy refused.  So, Bateman quit right then.  When he talked to Golden to take the job, Golden not only offered him the producer's job, he offered him the A&R/Director of Operations job that was supposed to go to Brian.  It turned out that a couple days before that, Berry had found out that Brian and Eddie were leaving, and offered them a solid salary and bought them each a Cadillac, to get them to decide to stay with Motown.  Bateman was peeved at The Hollands for not informing him of that.  But it was too late, he had formally quit.  He got the job of handling the setting up the new recording studio and hiring other people.  He hired Jazz pianist, Willie Harbert as the main arranger, and brought in his Satintone groupmate, Sonny Sanders as a writer, arranger.  And brought in Janie Bradford to moonlight as a songwriter(using her alias as Nikki Todd), and Ron Davis as a writer.  He brought The Supremes in as moonlighting background singers.  Martha and The Vandellas were already moonlighting for Chief Funk Brother, Joe Hunter, at Freddy Brown's Mikay's Records, and with them for Armen Boladian's Ring Records (really Mickay's masters).  He also brought in ex-Satintones, Vern Williams and Sammy Mack as writers and as a new group, The Pyramids, and also brought in William Weatherspoon as a writer, Don Juan Mancha as a writer and producer,  and young, aspiring singer/songwriter, Laura Johnson as the company's secretary.

[Tlscapital]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

I talked to people from Detroit, connected with Motown, or knowing people there, and being in the business themselves about Correc-Tone, and The Supremes' involvement.  Yes, they were moonlighting there in early 1962.  Their recordings were made during spring 1962, backing Wilson Pickett, and probably James Velvet (ex-Satintone James Ellis?).

Had the James Velvet on Correc-Tone long ago and he sounded 'white' for what is altogether a very 'poppy' record. And he is 'white'. This Jimmy 'Tennants' Velvet is often confused with another Jimmy 'Mullins' Velvit !

Mullins had also 2 singles on Cub as well. Not helping in the confusion ! Mullins had Cub K9100 & Cub K9105 and Tennants Cub K9111 for his re-release of his Correc-Tone single. But no member of the Satintones here

 

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

I don't believe they were the backing group of Gino Washington on "I'm a Coward" (or any other song of his). I had always heard that The Rochelles (who backed him with credits on his 1964 Amon and Wand releases), who were his friends in high school, and also were in his club review act, backed him whenever he had a female back-up group, at least through 1966.  The pre-Supremes, as The Primettes did all their back-up work for Robert West in late 1959 and early 1960, all in Detroit.  Everything I read about the late 1962-early 1963 Enrica release said that it was recorded in New York, and James Duddley (AKA Dudley) was at that time, a New York Artist (although originally from The South), and those Primettes were a New York group, with no connection to Detroit, and the name was used without any knowledge of Robert West's Lupine Primettes, whose name was unknown because, even when West had his late release of their Lupine record to take advantage of The Supremes' Motown success, it was only distributed in Michigan and Ohio.  No one in New York would have heard of them.

Same here. That double sider of Gino Washington on Correct-Tone does not sounds like it features the Supremes on backing vocals. Although I also heard 'rumors'... And those Primettes on Enrica never neither. 

[Wheelsville1]

2 hours ago, Robbk said:

I talked to people from Detroit, connected with Motown, or knowing people there, and being in the business themselves about Correc-Tone, and The Supremes' involvement.  Yes, they were moonlighting there in early 1962.  Their recordings were made during spring 1962, backing Wilson Pickett, and probably James Velvet (ex-Satintone James Ellis?).  I don't believe they were the backing group of Gino Washington on "I'm a Coward" (or any other song of his). I had always heard that The Rochelles (who backed him with credits on his 1964 Amon and Wand releases), who were his friends in high school, and also were in his club review act, backed him whenever he had a female back-up group, at least through 1966.  The pre-Supremes, as The Primettes did all their back-up work for Robert West in late 1959 and early 1960, all in Detroit.  Everything I read about the late 1962-early 1963 Enrica release said that it was recorded in New York, and James Duddley (AKA Dudley) was at that time, a New York Artist (although originally from The South), and those Primettes were a New York group, with no connection to Detroit, and the name was used without any knowledge of Robert West's Lupine Primettes, whose name was unknown because, even when West had his late release of their Lupine record to take advantage of The Supremes' Motown success, it was only distributed in Michigan and Ohio.  No one in New York would have heard of them. 

I believe that The Enrica record was only listed as being The Pre-Supremes because of the group name, but never seen any evidence that The Detroit group had anything to do with that record. And I can't believe Detroit's Supremes (ex-Primettes) went to New York to record those Enrica cuts, which were certainly recorded after The Supremes were contracted to Motown.  That CERTAINLY would have come out some time during the last  55 years.

Wilbur Golden saw that saw that Motown was doing well, and that Ed Wingate, who had also entered the business recently, was enjoying running expenses through his record business to his advantage, regardless of whether or not he made money on selling the records, he decided he wanted to enter the record business, too.  He secretly approached Brian and Eddie Holland, and Popcorn Wylie, and got them to agree to come work for him at his new record company.  Robert Bateman said that Brian and Eddie came to him and told him that Golden offered them a good regular monthly salary to operate his new record company, as songwriters, producers and A&R men, and to also set a a new recording studio.  They agreed to jump ship from Motown to work for him.  He had asked them to get more of Motown's crew to come and join them at the new label.

So Bateman said with that option open to him, he went to Berry Gordy and asked him for a regular salary at the level Golden offered, and Gordy refused.  So, Bateman quit right then.  When he talked to Golden to take the job, Golden not only offered him the producer's job, he offered him the A&R/Director of Operations job that was supposed to go to Brian.  It turned out that a couple days before that, Berry had found out that Brian and Eddie were leaving, and offered them a solid salary and bought them each a Cadillac, to get them to decide to stay with Motown.  Bateman was peeved at The Hollands for not informing him of that.  But it was too late, he had formally quit.  He got the job of handling the setting up the new recording studio and hiring other people.  He hired Jazz pianist, Willie Harbert as the main arranger, and brought in his Satintone groupmate, Sonny Sanders as a writer, arranger.  And brought in Janie Bradford to moonlight as a songwriter(using her alias as Nikki Todd), and Ron Davis as a writer.  He brought The Supremes in as moonlighting background singers.  Martha and The Vandellas were already moonlighting for Chief Funk Brother, Joe Hunter, at Freddy Brown's Mikay's Records, and with them for Armen Boladian's Ring Records (really Mickay's masters).  He also brought in ex-Satintones, Vern Williams and Sammy Mack as writers and as a new group, The Pyramids, and also brought in William Weatherspoon as a writer, Don Juan Mancha as a writer and producer,  and young, aspiring singer/songwriter, Laura Johnson as the company's secretary.

Hi Robb,thanks for confirming what i thought. I have 2 questions,firstly is Earl van dyke playing the piano on let me be your boy and are martha and the vandellas on jj barnes lonely no more? 

[The Yank]

12 hours ago, Robbk said:

I talked to people from Detroit, connected with Motown, or knowing people there, and being in the business themselves about Correc-Tone, and The Supremes' involvement.  Yes, they were moonlighting there in early 1962.  Their recordings were made during spring 1962, backing Wilson Pickett, and probably James Velvet (ex-Satintone James Ellis?).  I don't believe they were the backing group of Gino Washington on "I'm a Coward" (or any other song of his). I had always heard that The Rochelles (who backed him with credits on his 1964 Amon and Wand releases), who were his friends in high school, and also were in his club review act, backed him whenever he had a female back-up group, at least through 1966.  The pre-Supremes, as The Primettes did all their back-up work for Robert West in late 1959 and early 1960, all in Detroit.  Everything I read about the late 1962-early 1963 Enrica release said that it was recorded in New York, and James Duddley (AKA Dudley) was at that time, a New York Artist (although originally from The South), and those Primettes were a New York group, with no connection to Detroit, and the name was used without any knowledge of Robert West's Lupine Primettes, whose name was unknown because, even when West had his late release of their Lupine record to take advantage of The Supremes' Motown success, it was only distributed in Michigan and Ohio.  No one in New York would have heard of them. 

I believe that The Enrica record was only listed as being The Pre-Supremes because of the group name, but never seen any evidence that The Detroit group had anything to do with that record. And I can't believe Detroit's Supremes (ex-Primettes) went to New York to record those Enrica cuts, which were certainly recorded after The Supremes were contracted to Motown.  That CERTAINLY would have come out some time during the last  55 years.

 

I'm glad you cleared that up- the rest of the records that were mentioned did have some kind of Detroit connection- that one made no sense which is why I posted it. I knew someone would have  the answer. 

[Robbk]

10 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Hi Robb,thanks for confirming what i thought. I have 2 questions,firstly is Earl van dyke playing the piano on let me be your boy and are martha and the vandellas on jj barnes lonely no more? 

No,  Earl Van Dyke wasn't playing piano on "Let Me Be Your Boy"..  That was Correc-Tone's on-house pianist/arranger, Willie Harbert.  I don't have any confirmation that Martha and The Vandellas were on "Lonely No More", but was told by Ron Murphy that that worked for Freddy Brown on both Mickay's and Ring, as well as on Kable (as The Dell Fi's).  I know they were on "Just One More Time".  I'll take another listen to "Lonely No More".

Afer listening, I can say that Martha and The Vandellas were NOT on "Lonely No More, even as secondary backups.  All I hear is a male group.  Maybe it was The Legends, who recorded for Mickay's at the time, and made regular appearances at "The Hideout", at that time.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Robbk

[Robbk]

10 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Had the James Velvet on Correc-Tone long ago and he sounded 'white' for what is altogether a very 'poppy' record. And he is 'white'. This Jimmy 'Tennants' Velvet is often confused with another Jimmy 'Mullins' Velvit !

Mullins had also 2 singles on Cub as well. Not helping in the confusion ! Mullins had Cub K9100 & Cub K9105 and Tennants Cub K9111 for his re-release of his Correc-Tone single. But no member of the Satintones here

 

Same here. That double sider of Gino Washington on Correct-Tone does not sounds like it features the Supremes on backing vocals. Although I also heard 'rumors'... And those Primettes on Enrica never neither. 

Thanks for that information.  I've always wondered about that Jimmy Velvet coincidence.

[The Yank]

Billboard ad from April '62- 

[Robbk]

Just like I always thought, James Velvet sounds like a Black man to me.  Also, he sounds like he could possibly be James Ellis, who might well have been brought to Correc-Tone by his ex-groupmate, Robert Bateman, and his other ex-groupmates, Sonny Sanders, and Sammy Mack wrote these songs, along with Bateman.  I remember comparing Jimmy Velvet's and Jimmy Velvit's voices to James', and realising that they were both Caucasian C&W singers, whose voices were very different from his.  Unlike Berry Gordy and Ed Wingate, both of whom had a handful of Caucasian singing artists, songwriters, and other workers working for their companies, I don't recall EVEN ONE non-African-American working for Golden's Correc-Tone, unless he had a moonlighting Caucasian musician, or two, of which I am unaware. 

Here's James on "When I needed You"

 

[Tlscapital]

10 hours ago, Robbk said:

Just like I always thought, James Velvet sounds like a Black man to me.  Also, he sounds like he could possibly be James Ellis, who might well have been brought to Correc-Tone by his ex-groupmate, Robert Bateman, and his other ex-groupmates, Sonny Sanders, and Sammy Mack wrote these songs, along with Bateman.  I remember comparing Jimmy Velvet's and Jimmy Velvit's voices to James', and realising that they were both Caucasian C&W singers, whose voices were very different from his.  Unlike Berry Gordy and Ed Wingate, both of whom had a handful of Caucasian singing artists, songwriters, and other workers working for their companies, I don't recall EVEN ONE non-African-American working for Golden's Correc-Tone, unless he had a moonlighting Caucasian musician, or two, of which I am unaware. 

And you're right. My memory (subjective) of this record got me wrong (objective) and my haste into the Velvet Jimmies lead me into a false assumption. At the first notes my ear memory got the notion that back then I couldn't get my head around this pop novelty number stuck between Wilson Pickett and Gino Washington. Yes he's black.

Your whole Sanders, Mack & Bateman involvement makes lot of sense evidently as I was thinking exactly the same while checking the Correc-Tone credentials all over again. Only I forgot to check YT for the sound trial of both sides. Both other Jimmy Velvit & -et are evidently white dudes. Corrections will be addressed to discogs and 45cat.

And so maybe James Velvet is actually James Ellis ex leader of the Satintones ... My apologies to you but mostly thank you for the correction while shedding another light on the oddest record from that little record stable that is so dear to many out there. No matter if one still don't like the record, the truth has been served ; James Velvet is black !

Edited April 24, 2021 by Tlscapital

[The Yank]

I'm not sure about the James Velvet =James Ellis theory.

    According to the liner notes of the Ace CD "The Satintones Sing!", James Ellis left the music business after the Satintones split up. 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

I'm not sure about the James Velvet =James Ellis theory.

    According to the liner notes of the Ace CD "The Satintones Sing!", James Ellis left the music business after the Satintones split up. 

I just mentioned the possibility.  For 60 years we've been wondering who Velvet was.  And, if you listen to the mid-tempo version of "Angel", and "When I Needed You" you can hear a certain level of similarity in the voices.  Many times singers have been said to have "retired" at a certain point, and then we found later records sung by them, which failed to sell, so no one knew about them, or the artist went by another name, and no one knew about them.  Sometimes, a different producer got a hold of old tapes of songs even the artist forgot he or she recorded, and released them under a different artist name, and no one made the connection.  The latter can't be the case, as these 2 cuts were NOT Motown recordings, or pre-Correc-Tone recordings.  It's too late to ask any ex-Satintones, other than, perhaps Chico Leverett, who was still with us last time I inquired.  But he wasn't involved with Correc-Tone (not a member of The Pyramids nor Correc-Tone's songwriting staff, as were Vern Williams, Sammy Mack. Sonny Sanders, and Bateman).  But, he might have kept in touch with them, and would know if Ellis worked with that label.   I wouldn't bet on it, but I don't rule out the possibility.