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Soul Probity

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Following on from the debates what should get played originals or not and the interesting, if not very intelectual, debate on the Grapevine 2000 thread. How about a registration scheme where DJs and Venues can commit to playing originals only. I'm not a world authority on originals or a paid up member of the 'soul police' thumbsup.gif but a couple of us gave this some thought a while back. A number of relatively big DJs thought it may not be a good idea. Dunno why :P

Just to get the debate going here is a summary of our thoughts as I remember them: (acknowledgement goes to messers Murphy, Ferguson, Hayes, McWilliams et al)

Soul Probity

What is it?

It is a sort of "kite mark" to indicate to visitors to particular venues what they are buying with their admission fee.

Why has it been developed?

The venue competition within the Northern and Rare Soul scene has grown tremendously recently. The proliferation of tracks available on CD, bootlegs and legitimate re release has facilitated this and it is now possible to play many of the top rarities at minimal cost.

What's wrong with that?

On the face of it nothing and for some dancers particularly this is something positive allowing them to dance to sounds that they would have had to travel miles for previously unless of course they have a dance floor in their front room. However without the massive investment, financial and otherwise of some DJs and promoters how would these sounds develop and without that continued development what is the future for the scene?

Isn't this just elitist snobbery?

Far from it. It is more about allowing everyone to be more discerning in their choices if this is important to them. There are venues that have solid and long-standing reputations with dancers who want to hear the stock oldies; and who can argue with their success. This scheme will not impact on such venues at all. If however hearing a balance of classics with some new and different sounds is important then the 'Soul Probity' logo will provide some assurance to the punter.

Who benefits from this?

The punters - Through the ability to make more informed choices and knowing in advance what to expect at, even the newest of, venues. The diversity of sounds heard will increase as the rarity of some sounds has a natural limiting effect on the numbers of DJs that can play them. This will encourage creativity and imagination in those venues, in those DJs, that adopt the scheme.

The promoters - There will be a better match between what is expected and what is delivered and that can only help build the satisfaction of the customer who pay the bills. Building a following and reputation for a soul night can be costly and time consuming this mechanic helps speed this process up.

DJs - This will encourage a greater degree of professionalism and offer up some recognition for those who invest heavily. There is a widening gap between what is invested by many DJs and what income they can expect by way of fee from promoters. This provides a way for some, albeit non-financial, recognition to be had by those who follow an originals only policy. After all it must be annoying in the extreme to pay £400+ for an original "Rita and the Tiaras" only to have the DJ before you play the £5 "Joe Boy" copy.

Collectors - Record bars are the place where most of the "Oh God I'm sick of hearing this" comments are heard. New and varied sounds on play lists is what many collectors want particularly if the latest sound to be broken or reactivated is one they own.

Dealers - These have most to lose from the bootleg CDs or acetates made from mini-disk recordings of mega rare tracks. We often hear of the damage caused by bootleggers sometimes through "poachers turned gamekeepers". Whatever the rights and wrongs of this market, whether the CD are sold or given away this initiative will limit their use, publicly at least.

Vinyl will be the only medium used, except where the recording was originally released only in an alternative format e.g. Ivan Matias "Somebody Knows How You Feel" on C.D.

Original releases will form the content of all DJs sets.

"Original" will include:

· The first local and national U.S. label releases.

· The first U.K. or foreign label release if contemporaneous with the U.S. release, e.g. The British Soul City release of Gene Chandler's "Nothing Can Stop Me" would qualify but not the British Soul City release of Jack Montgomery's "Dearly Beloved".

· The first foreign label release where the track was not released in the U.S. e.g Doug Parkinson's Aussie release of "I'll Be Around"

· Album tracks are permissible where they appear on albums released at the time of the original release of the 45 e.g. Ace Spectrum's "Don't Send Me Nobody Else" from the album "Inner Spectrum" is permissible however any track from a "Various Artists" album would not be allowed.

· Acetates can be played but only if cut from original masters; EMI discs are not allowed.

Who Can Get Involved?

Promoters and DJs

If a promoter chooses to operate an "originals" only policy they can become "Venue Members". This will entitle the venue to use the Soul Probity logo on their publicity material for events where they only use DJs who are current members of the Soul Probity scheme.

If a DJ commits to an "originals" only policy he / she is eligible to become a member of the scheme and have the Soul Probity logo displayed after his / her name on any publicity material whether playing at a venue that is a "Venue Member" or not.

I'll stand back at this point and wait for the comments (:tomato2: whistling.gif:P:yes:thmbdn.gif )

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Quote: · The first U.K. or foreign label release if contemporaneous with the U.S. release, e.g. The British Soul City release of Gene Chandler's "Nothing Can Stop Me" would qualify but not the British Soul City release of Jack Montgomery's "Dearly Beloved".

If you're going to create a manifesto you should get your facts right. Gene Chandler on Soul City is a reissue, it came out after the original release on Stateside so according to your rules, it cannot be played.

I rest my case.

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Thats much more helpful you're getting into the spirit now :P It wasn't meant to be a manifesto just a way to let the paying punters know what they are getting. Like I said I'm not a world authority on originals thumbsup.gif you dealers are much better at that whistling.gif besides I wasn't buying records when it was a new release unlike some on here :yes:

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Isn't is a bit patronising ? Don't most people who care about these kind of things have a knowledge of how a venue is run, music policy etc.....and the ones who don't know probably don't care one way or the other.

Not trying to be negative, but a registration scheme ? Sounds very New Labour !

Edited by alison

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Not trying to negative, but a registration scheme ? Sounds very New Labour !

link

Sounds like a new Third Reich to me whistling.gif

maybe thats too heavy, I apologise

still sounds like a load of old bollocks to me

patronisng to the nth degree and only of interest to the 20 anoraks who actually take themselves seriously enough to actually come up with something like that

Edited by Pete-S

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Sounds very New Labour !

link

Would this be like one of their gold standard things that they are always banging on about?

So who gets to tell a promoter he can't have a kite mark for stopping DJs playing reissues? Who has the right, apart from the person who does or doesn't pay to go to their events, which I think that those who are bothered do anyway?

And I don't think its right to assume that oldies events all play boots either.

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I must say that at a glance it seems like a reasonable idea, but unfortunatly I would have to say totally unworkable, I'm all for original vinyl, but that doesn't mean everybody thinks the same........

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This site seems to permanently debate the rights and wrongs of original vinyl.......IT'S A DANCE SCENE, TO BE ENJOYED!!

Let's take it a step further, from now on, those attending specific venues, must have ID cards, promising that they only listen to original vinyl. They must promise to walk off the floor at a given signal, from the 'vinyl checker' and hurrumph as one in disgust.

I would also like it made clear that from this moment forth, only those who can actually dance in time should be allowed on the dance floor, furthermore, if they are not producing original traditional northern steps, then the 'dance checker', will have the right to produce the red card. Those red carded will be allowed one more attempt at 'correctness', but if they fail, will be ejected from the venue.

And could the 'clothes monitor' also make sure that spencers worn are originals, and not made by some fly by night money maker, cashing in.

Winnie:-)

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This site seems to permanently debate the rights and wrongs of original vinyl.......IT'S A DANCE SCENE, TO BE ENJOYED!!

Let's take it a step further, from now on, those attending specific venues, must have ID cards, promising that they only listen to original vinyl. They must promise to walk off the floor at a given signal, from the 'vinyl checker' and hurrumph as one in disgust.

I would also like it made clear that from this moment forth, only those who can actually dance in time should be allowed on the dance floor, furthermore, if they are not producing original traditional northern steps, then the 'dance checker', will have the right to produce the red card. Those red carded will be allowed one more attempt at 'correctness', but if they fail, will be ejected from the venue.

And could the 'clothes monitor' also make sure that spencers worn are originals, and not made by some fly by night money maker, cashing in.

Winnie:-)

link

Come to think of it Winnie you may be on to something here. It just might work :yes: Can I have a get out of jail free card on the dancing in time please :yes:

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This site seems to permanently debate the rights and wrongs of original vinyl.......IT'S A DANCE SCENE, TO BE ENJOYED!!

Winnie:-)

link

But you have to respect diversity to create an inclusive scene.

(long Tony Blair pause, do that cheesy grin, remember to do hand gesture)

There's room for two left footed chin strokers who only collect records as well. And people who aren't prepared to enjoy themselves but would rather stand at the bar moaning about everything. Each has made an equally valid contribution to the scene. :yes:

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(long Tony Blair pause, do that cheesy grin, remember to do hand gesture)

link

You did that so well, it was scary :yes: Ever been asked to chair a Quango ?

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But you have to respect diversity to create an inclusive scene.

(long Tony Blair pause, do that cheesy grin, remember to do hand gesture)

There's room for two left footed chin strokers who only collect records as well.  And people who aren't prepared to enjoy themselves but would rather stand at the bar moaning about everything.  Each has made an equally valid contribution to the scene. :yes:

link

=========

I have complete respect for the 'chin strokers' as it were. I've never dissed them in any way, cos they enjoy their chosen aspect of the scene, but the constant right or wrong posts imply, to me any way, that the chin stroker way is the one true faith. All I'm trying to say, and echoing your sentiments Stu, the scene is diverse, and always will be, can it not just be left at that?

Recently there have been should it be played threads, worst venue you've attended threads, original vinyl only threads....I tend to see them as negative. The old adage ....if it aint broke, springs to mind. I know some would argue that it is broken, that we are not allowing new sounds to surface and to be played, but if the tracks are good enough, they will get recognition.

In my view too many average tracks are being promoted by some venues, not remotely resembling trad sounding northern, and as an audience we are being expected to accept them. We (dancers) may not stroke our chins, and it's true to say we are matrix number blind in general, but we do know what moves us. As said somewhere else, each to their own :yes:

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=========

I have complete respect for the 'chin strokers' as it were. I've never dissed them in any way, cos they enjoy their chosen aspect of the scene, but the constant right or wrong posts imply, to me any way, that the chin stroker way is the one true faith. All I'm trying to say, and echoing your sentiments Stu, the scene is diverse, and always will be, can it not just be left at that?

link

Yep, we've done it to death haven't we? We should leave it now and people should find something else to argue about.

Here goes, should that lager be sold in northern soul venues? Someone told me that they didn't have it at the Twisted Wheel.

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Just hold it there, let's not make an arse of the thread. wink.gif

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Collectors - Record bars are the place where most of the "Oh God I'm sick of hearing this" comments are heard.  New and varied sounds on play lists is what many collectors want particularly if the latest sound to be broken or reactivated is one they own.

link

No mention of Dancers, just Collectors? So each venue wouldn't require a dancefloor then, just a record player in the corner by the dealers? whistling.gif

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This is the daftest idea ive ever heard,promoters hire and fire as they see fit,its their money.The traveling soulies go to the venues they like,thats it.Obviously each promoter has ,his or her,own views on music policy originals bootlegs etc,bottom line is people go were they want ,you normaly talk sense m8 but this is a none starter.

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!!

Let's take it a step further, from now on, those attending specific venues, must have ID cards, promising that they only listen to original vinyl. They must promise to walk off the floor at a given signal, from the 'vinyl checker' and hurrumph as one in disgust.

Winnie:-)

link

not sure about id cards.

wouldnt sew on badges be more apropriate whistling.gif

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not sure about id cards.

wouldnt sew on badges be more apropriate whistling.gif

link

takes me back,look good at welsh concentration camp,going next week will keep away from the showers though?ken

Edited by kenneth aitchison

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No mention of Dancers, just Collectors?  So each venue wouldn't require a dancefloor then, just a record player in the corner by the dealers?  whistling.gif

link

Actually, I think that there is scope for a venue like that. :lol:

Wouldn't be right for everyone but it would be like having the do in the record room. Like expanding a trades night from the living room to the pub. Sort of the polar opposite of an oldies do where virtually everything is on reissue or CD and the dancefloor is rammed. Unheard of undanceable rareties all night on original vinyl. If a DJ plays anything not on the first issue he or she gets tarred and feathered. :lol:

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Unheard of undanceable rareties all night on original vinyl.  If a DJ plays anything not on the first issue he or she gets tarred and feathered.  whistling.gif

link

But all your sets are like that Stuart :huh::lol::rolleyes:

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But all your sets are like that Stuart :rolleyes:   :huh:   whistling.gif

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Andy, can you give me a ring mate cheers

Dave G

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Well this topic just wont lie down though if I had put politics in the title I'm sure there would have been more comments.

You can stop ringing me now :lol: I know this scheme is a non starter, in fact I knew that when I posted the topic as you will see from the original post and the records mentioned it was generated some time ago with tongue firmly in cheek.

We kinda have these drunken debates (though I'm always sober being the driver whistling.gif ) and they have led to the ideas such as 'Northern Big Soul Brother' where we debated who would be the best people on the scene to put into a room together and what tasks would we set them. Some of you will have seen the 'Fantasy Northern DJ league' that we published in 'In the Neighbourhood' fanzine that led to comments on RS's radio show about the £8.00 value of Ginger Taylor, complaints from some DJ's who we missed out of the league and most suprisingly of all a number of completed entries :lol: . How these people thought we would know if any of the DJs played something at a venue that had already been played that night so we could dock them some points was beyond me or even how we would count the number of people on the dance floor for every DJ's set at every venue to allocate them a score.

The original post was intended to lighten the mood that was darkening with one thread having stooped to name calling and personal abuse around this very subject. When I did it I did expect some (good natured) stick or banter (ala Pete's initial posts), I did expect some people to wonder if I was serious. I didn't expect everyone to think I was setting up a Northern Soul equivalent of the 'Moonies' and people to start ringing me to remonstrate.

I guess I need to be even more 'off the wall' (is that possible I wonder :rolleyes: ) if I don't want you to take me too seriously.

My thoughts on 'Northern Big Soul Brother' I'll keep to myself :huh::lol:

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This has got to be the most laughable suggestion I've ever heard. There's still no guarantee you're going to have a good time. :rolleyes:

A late bar kitemark would be helpful though. whistling.gif

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Well this topic just wont lie down though if I had put politics in the title I'm sure there would have been more comments.

You can stop ringing me now  :lol: I know this scheme is a non starter, in fact I knew that when I posted the topic as you will see from the original post and the records mentioned it was generated some time ago with tongue firmly in cheek.

We kinda have these drunken debates (though I'm always sober being the driver  whistling.gif ) and they have led to the ideas such as 'Northern Big Soul Brother' where we debated who would be the best people on the scene to put into a room together and what tasks would we set them. Some of you will have seen the 'Fantasy Northern DJ league' that we published in 'In the Neighbourhood' fanzine that led to comments on RS's radio show about the £8.00 value of Ginger Taylor, complaints from some DJ's who we missed out of the league and most suprisingly of all a number of completed entries :lol: . How these people thought we would know if any of the DJs played something at a venue that had already been played that night so we could dock them some points was beyond me or even how we would count the number of people on the dance floor for every DJ's set at every venue to allocate them a score.

The original post was intended to lighten the mood that was darkening with one thread having stooped to name calling and personal abuse around this very subject. When I did it I did expect some (good natured) stick or banter (ala Pete's initial posts), I did expect some people to wonder if I was serious. I didn't expect everyone to think I was setting up a Northern Soul equivalent of the 'Moonies' and people to start ringing me to remonstrate.

I guess I need to be even more 'off the wall' (is that possible I wonder :rolleyes: ) if I don't want you to take me too seriously.

My thoughts on 'Northern Big Soul Brother' I'll keep to myself :huh:   :lol:

link

And you'd have got away with it if it hadn't been for those pesky kids

:lol:

Edited by Pete-S

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