Rotations is This Correct

[Dave Thorley]

Hi Guys

Was looking round the web for images of the Rotations and went to the Soul Walking Site. Reading there comments on the band, it would imply that original The Rotations (on Frantic) were out of Cleveland, when I'd always thought they were out of Philly.

link to the page

https://www.soulwalking.co.uk/Rotations.html

Anyone one have the full story on the group.

Thanks

Dave

[Steve G]

Hi Guys

Was looking round the web for images of the Rotations and went to the Soul Walking Site. Reading there comments on the band, it would imply that original The Rotations (on Frantic) were out of Cleveland, when I'd always thought they were out of Philly.

link to the page

https://www.soulwalking.co.uk/Rotations.html

Anyone one have the full story on the group.

Thanks

Dave

Think from memory there were two groups Dave. There's def a Philly one - I thought the other ones were more Chicago way, but I'll settle on Cleveland.

[boba]

Hi Guys

Was looking round the web for images of the Rotations and went to the Soul Walking Site. Reading there comments on the band, it would imply that original The Rotations (on Frantic) were out of Cleveland, when I'd always thought they were out of Philly.

link to the page

https://www.soulwalking.co.uk/Rotations.html

Anyone one have the full story on the group.

Thanks

Dave

That page is talking about the debroussard group being a 'clone' of the lawton group, who are both ohio. Where do you get anything about the frantic group from that article? Maybe I am not reading it correctly?

There is a chicago 'rotations' (that Steve G mentioned), they are Roe-o-tation, they changed the name on the record because they found out about the frantic group.

[boba]

That page is talking about the debroussard group being a 'clone' of the lawton group, who are both ohio. Where do you get anything about the frantic group from that article? Maybe I am not reading it correctly?

There is a chicago 'rotations' (that Steve G mentioned), they are Roe-o-tation, they changed the name on the record because they found out about the frantic group.

Also, the lawton group recorded in philly (which is why Bobby Martin's name is on the record) but the group is still from Ohio. I still think there is a separate Frantic group from philly though.

[Dave Thorley]

Also, the lawton group recorded in philly (which is why Bobby Martin's name is on the record) but the group is still from Ohio. I still think there is a separate Frantic group from philly though.

Thanks guy's would be interesting to find the guys and know more.

Dave

[Garethx]

The DeBrossard Rotations were from Cleveland, Ohio. Just as that record was taking off in the local area at least two of the group were put away for a very long time after being mixed up in an armed robbery. I think the Lawton group is a continuation of the earlier group, minus the personnel who had gone off to chokey. The credits on the Lawton 45 do point towards it being produced in Philadelphia.

Edited April 2, 2008 by garethx

[Dave Thorley]

The DeBrossard Rotations were from Cleveland, Ohio. Just as that record was taking off in the local area at least two of the group were put away for a very long time after being mixed up in an armed robbery.

Which is what is stated in the Soulwalking artical, but wondered what, if any was the connection between them and the Frantic (Philly group).

[boba]

The DeBrossard Rotations were from Cleveland, Ohio. Just as that record was taking off in the local area at least two of the group were put away for a very long time after being mixed up in an armed robbery. I think the Lawton group is a continuation of the earlier group, minus the personnel who had gone off to chokey. The credits on the Lawton 45 do point towards it being produced in Philadelphia.

Hey Garethx, have you ever heard of another record by the ohio group (specifically the lawton group)? Someone sent me a recording of the side, supposedly on the emandolyn label (which is also weird because emandolyn is a georgia publisher). Supposedly the other side of the record is the same as one of the lawton sides. I think someone here asked a similar question, asking if there was a separate lawton press with a different b-side.

[Dave Thorley]

Hey Garethx, have you ever heard of another record by the ohio group (specifically the lawton group)? Someone sent me a recording of the side, supposedly on the emandolyn label (which is also weird because emandolyn is a georgia publisher). Supposedly the other side of the record is the same as one of the lawton sides. I think someone here asked a similar question, asking if there was a separate lawton press with a different b-side.

Hi Boba

Yes it is an un-released track recorded at the same session. Infact there were two, which I have licenced from Manny Campbell the producer and holder of the rights. Manny now lives in Atlanta and runs the sucessful Midtown-Coastal record labels. The Emandolyn pressing should have had both tracks on but there was a mess up with the masters and the wrong recording pressed, ie the Lawton track was pressed instead. We are having them pressed as i write at National in Nashville, the tracks will be 'When she slowly slips away/Soul freedom. Relaese will be later this year.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Dave Thorley

[Dave Thorley]

PS

I have a test pressing and this time the right tracks have been pressed.

[boba]

Hi Boba

Yes it is an un-released track recorded at the same session. Infact there were two, which I have licenced from Manny Campbell the producer and holder of the rights. Manny now lives in Atlanta and runs the sucessful Midtown-Coastal record labels. The Emandolyn pressing should have had both tracks on but there was a mess up with the masters and the wrong recording pressed, ie the Lawton track was pressed instead. We are having them pressed as i write at National in Nashville, the tracks will be 'When she slowly slips away/Soul freedom. Relaese will be later this year.

Dave: do you own the Emandolyn 45? I'm just interested in seeing a scan because I've never seen it before. Thanks.

[Dave Thorley]

Dave: do you own the Emandolyn 45? I'm just interested in seeing a scan because I've never seen it before. Thanks.

Just on my way to bed, will do it in the morning

Dave

[Dave Fleming]

Dave: do you own the Emandolyn 45? I'm just interested in seeing a scan because I've never seen it before. Thanks.

Boba there`s a thread done about this on here,i posted up scans of the 45 and info on the tracks,strange that the titles pressed up on that one by M Campbell are different to the titles M Campbell gave to Dave,and yes the Lawton track was misspressed on the flip,but at the time i brought the 45 i was giving a tape of the "When he slowly moves away from you" which was meant to be on it so i got three tracks which was nice.

Dave f...........

[Dave Fleming]

Dave: do you own the Emandolyn 45? I'm just interested in seeing a scan because I've never seen it before. Thanks.

Boba, Here`s a scan of the "Emandolynn" 45 i have

Dave f............

[boba]

Boba, Here`s a scan of the "Emandolynn" 45 i have

Dave f............

thanks for all the info. So the 'we want freedom' side actually plays one of the lawton sides? Which side? thanks again.

[Steve G]

boba said:

thanks for all the info. So the 'we want freedom' side actually plays one of the lawton sides? Which side? thanks again.

No Boba - "We want freedom" is a fabulous crossover side in it's own right and plays as it says on the title, which has been about in very limited quantity for years (Dave Halsall got them from Manny ooh late 80s I'd guess) - maybe 15 copies tops.

Manny did a lot of work in Philly (Nurons, Rotations etc)....anyway so that we are all clear are we saying

1) original rotations from Ohio - morphed into group that recorded in Pa.

2) third group from Chicago

Hopefully that's put the pieces together?

Steve

Edited November 7, 2019 by Steve G

[Dave Thorley]

So here's the new release

Looks great spinning round on a deck

Edited April 3, 2008 by Dave Thorley

[boba]

No Boba - "We want freedom" is a fabulous crossover side in it's own right and plays as it says on the title, which has been about in very limited quantity for years (Dave Halsall got them from Manny ooh late 80s I'd guess) - maybe 15 copies tops.

Manny did a lot of work in Philly (Nurons, Rotations etc)....anyway so that we are all clear are we saying

1) original rotations from Ohio - morphed into group that recorded in Pa. (Frantic, Emandolyn etc.)

2) third group from Chicago

Hopefully that's put the pieces together?

Steve

So what lawton record track the other side play?

There are actually *two* ohio rotations, with one common member between them (the original story). And although they recorded in philly, it's still not clear whether the frantic group has a connection or not or is a different group.

There's also the mala group (don't know if they have any connections to anyone) and there's also the CMC group, which is maybe st. louis? I've never heard or seen the CMC record (I saw it on a list once but missed it), can someone post that?

When I asked the chicago group why they changed their name on the record, they just said because they had heard of a rotations from philly, they didn't specify what group or label, etc.

I guess I won't ever be getting one of those emandolynn titles with just 15 copies, at least the one Dave is pressing has both sides.

[Dave Fleming]

So what lawton record track the other side play?

Boba, the side that say`s "When he slowly moves away from you" was misspressed and actualy plays,"Don`t ever hurt me girl" which as you know came out on "Lawton"

Dave f..........

[Steve G]

Time to revisit this old thread with what we now know. Which is more than we used to....

Rotations 1) on Frantic from NJ per Cooler than Ice Arctic box set. Discogs suggests these were also The Inspirations on Wand.

Rotations 2) Mala Records group - any ideas who these dudes may have been? Miles Grayson production so implies a West coast connection.

Rotations 3) Chicago, short lived and changed their name

Rotations 4) From Cleveland, recorded on deBroussard, then  recorded for Manny Campbell's set up with a record released on Law-Ton. Not sure when the Emandolyn record came out first ("We want freedom"), but copies surfaced in the late 80s / early 90s. Also there is a theory that this group started life as The Ambassadors on Uptown. Not sure about that either?

Can anyone add to the above?

 

Steve

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Steve G

[Louise]

The Rotations on Debroussard Lawton and Roxanne are the same outfits.

Dave

[Graham Anthony]

The Rotations on Mala are some or all of the Attractions, including Morris Chestnut

 

[Kenb]

On 02/04/2008 at 19:33, Dave Thorley said:

 

 

see Northern Connections #20 on this site for Rotations on Frantic

atb

ken

Edited November 7, 2019 by Kenb

[Blackpoolsoul]

5 hours ago, Steve G said:

Time to revisit this old thread with what we now know. Which is more than we used to....

Rotations 1) on Frantic from NJ per Cooler than Ice Arctic box set. Discogs suggests these were also The Inspirations on Wand.

Rotations 2) Mala Records group - any ideas who these dudes may have been? Miles Grayson production so implies a West coast connection.

Rotations 3) Chicago, short lived and changed their name

Rotations 4) From Cleveland, recorded on deBroussard, then  recorded for Manny Campbell's set up with a record released on Law-Ton. Not sure when the Emandolyn record came out first ("We want freedom"), but copies surfaced in the late 80s / early 90s. Also there is a theory that this group started life as The Ambassadors on Uptown. Not sure about that either?

Can anyone add to the above?

 

Steve

 

 

https://www.allmusic.com/artist/the-rotations-mn0001368755

https://jamguy.com/Rotations/main.php

Edited November 7, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[Kenb]

I don't believe The Inspirations on Wand was same line up as The Rotations on Frantic's "(Put A Dime On) D9". Maybe the line-up on "Heartaches".

[Steve G]

I had always thought the Inspirations on Wand were one of Chavis's groups so was a bit surprised when I read that on the Arctic box set.

 

4 hours ago, Louise said:

The Rotations on Debroussard Lawton and Roxanne are the same outfits.

Dave

Yes Dave, do you have a complete line up of the group?

[Md Records]

I had this virtue acetate of "Put a dime on D9" at one stage, which sounded to me almost, if not entirely identical to the "rotations" release and not a different group

Edited November 7, 2019 by Soul Inc

[Steve G]

3 hours ago, Graham Anthony said:

The Rotations on Mala are some or all of the Attractions, including Morris Chestnut

 

I didn't know that. Interesting. 

[Chalky]

Where does the suggestion the Inspirations were the Wand group come from? Is it just an assumption?  Could it be they were the group who recorded Got To Find New Love instead!

Edited November 7, 2019 by Chalky

[Chalky]

Just looked at the Wand disc, it is a Philly production so can see where the link came from

[Tlscapital]

On 07/11/2019 at 19:25, Md Records said:

I had this virtue acetate of "Put a dime on D9" at one stage, which sounded to me almost, if not entirely identical to the "rotations" release and not a different group

So the Wand Inspirations with their first release in April 1965 should be the same group as these '(put a dime) on D-9' guys & dolls. As this Virtue acetate shows and add water to that theory.

Now could it be that they suddenly change their first name for this Frantic release by November 1965 after they realized that there was another contemporary Inspirations group (the Wisconsin group on Galaxie, Conduc, Midas...) ?

No real pun on my behalf as ya'll have done the work gathering these and am merely putting it all in 'line' after doing some digging on the group and their releases while reviving this thread if ever.

On 07/11/2019 at 18:50, Kenb said:

I don't believe The Inspirations on Wand was same line up as The Rotations on Frantic's "(Put A Dime On) D9". Maybe the line-up on "Heartaches".

Exactly my ear and gut feeling too. At least at first; But maybe that most delightful 'D-9' UFO kind of a track is just too misleading to be attributed to anybody really.

So could it still be them doing this fantastic trashed 'teeny' poppy sing-a-long 'punk-soul' tune ? The Inspirations 'link' with the Virtue acetate should tell us so.

On 07/11/2019 at 16:32, Graham Anthony said:

The Rotations on Mala are some or all of the Attractions, including Morris Chestnut

 

On another matter but of utter importance to me. Thanks for that. Although my ears and gut feeling had a hunch that it could be... Now to establish that (I'll do my digging to confirm if ever) is crucial to many I am sure.

Edited 8 hours ago by Tlscapital

[Chalky]

Discogs has the Rotations on Mala and Frantic being the same act and from New Jersey.  I'm not so sure that the Mala group are or were the Attractions who were West Coast?

Mala group from Discogs: Albert DeMagnes, Leona Harden, Arlene Dixon, & Miriam Carter were the Rotations from New Jersey, USA.

Attractions: Morris Chestnut, (David or Robert) Jones (once of the Soundmasters), Bledsoe & Smith.

Anyone confirm the line ups or add etc

[Tlscapital]

5 hours ago, Chalky said:

Discogs has the Rotations on Mala and Frantic being the same act and from New Jersey.  I'm not so sure that the Mala group are or were the Attractions who were West Coast?

Mala group from Discogs: Albert DeMagnes, Leona Harden, Arlene Dixon, & Miriam Carter were the Rotations from New Jersey, USA.

Attractions: Morris Chestnut, (David or Robert) Jones (once of the Soundmasters), Bledsoe & Smith.

Anyone confirm the line ups or add etc

Have begin to make amend of that on Discogs but their procedures the last times I've tried to correct wrong entries or informations proved sometimes enduring if not nil.

Have also began to compliment some of the missing gaps and links on the much more resourceful, reliable and easy to deal with site '45.com'. To be continued.

Edited 8 hours ago by Tlscapital

[Kenb]

2 hours ago, Chalky said:

Discogs has the Rotations on Mala and Frantic being the same act and from New Jersey.  I'm not so sure that the Mala group are or were the Attractions who were West Coast?

Mala group from Discogs: Albert DeMagnes, Leona Harden, Arlene Dixon, & Miriam Carter were the Rotations from New Jersey, USA.

Attractions: Morris Chestnut, (David or Robert) Jones (once of the Soundmasters), Bledsoe & Smith.

Anyone confirm the line ups or add etc

See further up the thread. Northern connections # 20

someone took the names from my article and put them on discogs back in 2019

Edited 11 hours ago by Kenb

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, Kenb said:

See further up the thread. Northern connections # 20

someone took the names from my article and put them on discogs back in 2019

Trying to find the topic without much success, got a link?

[Tlscapital]

5 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Trying to find the topic without much success, got a link?

 

[Chalky]

So apart from what Graham says we don't know who the Mala group or its members are?

[Tlscapital]

The 'dainty' factor of some issues versus demos (and vice versa at other times IMHO) when topped by a quote worth bragging about like with the Arabians 45 on Le Mans with the 'Jim Kemper Presents' line and here (featuring Richard Parker) makes such stocker irresistibly the press to own.

But in this case is this a hint as to why this '(put a dime on) D-9' fantastic trashy 'teeny' sing-a-long 'punk-soul' kind of a tune sounds miles appart from their first bleak 'kiss and make up' HIT as the inspirations on Wand or their mediocre IMO follow up on Frantic 'a changed man' ?

Is it alone worth the mention as if the Richard Parker was known and respected enough to 'promote' the record's sale expectations ? If so was he the Chicago (and Los Angeles and Detroit) guy from Vee-Jay and member of the Dutones ? If so explaining the 'D-9' unique standing-out factor ? 

[Tlscapital]

40 minutes ago, Chalky said:

So apart from what Graham says we don't know who the Mala group or its members are?

One would need maybe to have that recording studio session sheet to know for sure but from the early days of the Vowels, then the Vows, the Sound Masters, the Attractions and finally these Rotations where the lead on 'trying to make you my own' could be Morris or his brother Ralph (similar singing but different tone to my ears) could have seen some continuous line-up inter-changes making the connections all the way through. In chronology a possibility, geographically too and musically as vocally absolutely too. So unless proven wrong I'll stick to that Chestnut theory...

The Vows on VIP were ; James Moore, Ralph Chestnut, Morris Chestnut, Helen Simpson.

The Sound Masters on Julet were ; David Jones, Morris Chestnut, Robert Jones, Roy Haggins.

The Attractions on Renfro / Bell were ; Morris Chestnut, Helen Simpson, Ronald Saunders (?).

Edited 7 hours ago by Tlscapital

[Chalky]

9 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

One would need maybe to have that recording studio session sheet to know for sure but from the early days of the Vowels, then the Vows, the Sound Masters, the Attractions and finally these Rotations where the lead on 'trying to make you my own' could be Morris or his brother Ralph (similar singing but different tone to my ears) could have seen some continuous line-up inter-changes making the connections all the way through. In chronology a possibility, geographically too and musically as vocally absolutely too.

The Vows on VIP were ; James Moore, Ralph Chestnut, Morris Chestnut, Helen Simpson.

The Sound Masters on Julet were ; David Jones, Morris Chestnut, Robert Jones, Roy Haggins.

The Attractions on Renfro / Bell were ; Morris Chestnut, Helen Simpson, Ronald Saunders (?).

Ray Haggins sings lead on the Sound Masters sides, he does sound similar to Morris.  Neither side of the Mala release are Morris on lead, sound nothing like him to my ears.

The Mala and Attractions (Why Shouldn't A Man Cry) release are the same month and year (Oct 67) according to 45 Cat, Morris was busy but wouldn't have thought he was that busy.  No mention of the Mala release in any bio I have read about Morris either?

Edited 7 hours ago by Chalky

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

Ray Haggins sings lead on the Sound Masters sides, he does sound similar to Morris.  Neither side of the Mala release are Morris on lead, sound nothing like him to my ears.

The Mala and Attractions (Why Shouldn't A Man Cry) release are the same month and year (Oct 67) according to 45 Cat, Morris was busy but wouldn't have thought he was that busy.  No mention of the Mala release in any bio I have read about Morris either?

True for the Sound Masters. That I hear and that's why maybe it always failed to really grab me  But apparently both Ralph and Morris Chestnut had very similar singings. So evidently without knowing what Ralph actually sang I'm lost there if ever to tell or know any better.

Seem to remember reading Robbk on here (working at Motown gave him access to the studio recording session sheet very likely) comments stating that it was Ralph Chestnut at it and not Morris on lead with the Vows 'tell me' on VIP. Could that be the case and if so a legacy confusion kept on...

As for the dating intertwine I hear but nothing clashing between recording session and releases if ever. Now listening again to the Attractions 'why shouldn't man cry' again I hear more similarities with the Rotations 'trying to make you my own' and with it similarities with Morris singing but then not.

And so maybe it is actually his cousin Ralph there... Still The Chestnut Connection... Maybe only ? After so many listening sessions of the attractions Bell sweet sides through the years I still hear Morris all this time after. But maybe it is Ralph all the same. And you mention Morris biography where do you / I find that ? 

Edited 5 hours ago by Tlscapital

[Chalky]

7 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

True for the Sound Masters. That I hear and that's why maybe it always failed to really grab me  But apparently both Ralph and Morris Chestnut had very similar singings. So evidently without knowing what Ralph actually sang I'm lost there if ever to tell or know any better.

Seem to remember reading Robbk on here (working at Motown gave him access to the studio recording session sheet very likely) comments stating that it was Ralph Chestnut at it and not Morris on lead with the Vows 'tell me' on VIP. Could that be the case and if so a legacy confusion kept on...

As for the dating intertwine I hear but nothing clashing between recording session and releases if ever. Now listening again to the Attractions 'why shouldn't man cry' again I hear more similarities with the Rotations 'trying to make you my own' and with it similarities with Morris singing but then not.

And so maybe it is actually his brother Ralph there... Still The Chestnut Connection... Maybe only ? After so many listening sessions of the attractions Bell sweet sides through the years I still hear Morris all this time after. But maybe it is Ralph all the same. And you mention Morris biography where do you / I find that ? 

John Smith wrote some sort if biography for when he came to Prestatyn. Its on this site somewhere in a Morris Chestnut topic.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Chalky
Link added

[Tlscapital]

Got it. Thanks. Roburt's 'copy & paste' from John Smith's blog on SS. There the three Attractions Bell singles are quoted ! Ha ! I thought I really had hearing's problem when it's 11 out of 10 when I'm at my best. Only 10 out of 10 when I'm not. That's reassuring.

Still  that does not resolve the Rotations on Mala mystery. I agree. But mind you that it could very well be an odd ball split 45 too. The real 'A' side ''misty roses' is not only sounding to be from another recording session if from the same group at all... The Chestnut malediction ?

The Vows on VIP is clearly a record that Berry Gordy didn't want out but heaven only knows why it did as a single sided promotional copy first with an old previously unissued Contours version of 'buttered popcorn' credited to the Vows. Destined to be a miss. That's my theory at least.

Or is it a really good Los Angeles Vows copycat of the Detroit Contours old bag style covering an old worthless tune of the Supremes ? That would prove to be the weirdest move to do to kick it in at Motown by 1965... But if they did the fooling on the other end is most effective I reckon.

The commercial Vows VIP release got tucked away with the Vows 'tell me' gem on the flip side and many ARP copies got a 'plug side' star shape stamp on the evidently better 'tell me' side. But still that didn't do the trick as it didn't play the expected Motown sound...

Could that Rotations on Mala 45 be some odd ball reels split business too to complete a 45 under a same "banner" with a loose spare unissued recording of the Chestnut connection for flip ? But I get that we just don't know and I maybe only guess too hard.

Last minute addition revision ; 

The credited composer of both this Rotations on Mala 45 Jerry Flanagan often worked with Bobby Sanders from 1967 onward and at one other time at least in 1967 with Miles Grayson on the Four Sights single on Shy Soul 'love is a hurting game - that I can't win'.

Jerry Flanagan never worked with Anthony C. Renfro though. The Rotation on Mala 'misty roses' side is odd enough to fit the Bobby Sanders related products if ever but still I'd have believe he would have his credit as he was rather well established by then.

But not . So if the 'trying to make you my own' side is a Chestnut Connection recording through Ralph Chestnut then it's without the previous Anthony Renfro involvement for sure and under the arrangements of Miles Grayson this time. The mystery remains...

Edited 2 hours ago by Tlscapital

[Robbk]

6 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

True for the Sound Masters. That I hear and that's why maybe it always failed to really grab me  But apparently both Ralph and Morris Chestnut had very similar singings. So evidently without knowing what Ralph actually sang I'm lost there if ever to tell or know any better.

Seem to remember reading Robbk on here (working at Motown gave him access to the studio recording session sheet very likely) comments stating that it was Ralph Chestnut at it and not Morris on lead with the Vows 'tell me' on VIP. Could that be the case and if so a legacy confusion kept on...

As for the dating intertwine I hear but nothing clashing between recording session and releases if ever. Now listening again to the Attractions 'why shouldn't man cry' again I hear more similarities with the Rotations 'trying to make you my own' and with it similarities with Morris singing but then not.

And so maybe it is actually his cousin Ralph there... Still The Chestnut Connection... Maybe only ? After so many listening sessions of the attractions Bell sweet sides through the years I still hear Morris all this time after. But maybe it is Ralph all the same. And you mention Morris biography where do you / I find that ? 

And weren't The InspirYes.  As I recall, Ralph Chestnut sang lead on Tell me.  If it had been Morris, I'd have liked it better.  Although, I just don't like the music writing or arrangement on that song.

And weren't The Inspirations on all those Philadelphia labels the same group that sang the regional hit song, "Dry your Eyes" on Guyden Records?  And, I never heard of them also being The Rotations on Mala.  And, of course they had nothing to do with the Wisconsin Inspirations who recorded for several Chicago labels.