Soul Scene Villains

[Guest Ste Brazil]

I was too young to have ever gone to Wigan etc, my first niters were at Bradford in the 80's but I've heard countless stories of the bad boys that used to go to Wigan, mugging people, selling dodgy gear and I've met at least two people who were runners for the dealers etc but I was just wondering, was this common at other venues such as Cleethorpes, the Mecca and the other main clubs of the time??

Ste.

[Naughty Boy]

I was too young to have ever gone to Wigan etc, my first niters were at Bradford in the 80's but I've heard countless stories of the bad boys that used to go to Wigan, mugging people, selling dodgy gear and I've met at least two people who were runners for the dealers etc but I was just wondering, was this common at other venues such as Cleethorpes, the Mecca and the other main clubs of the time??

Ste.

bootleggers,......... i trust you didnt mean those when you refer to dodgy gear or were you

[Guest Ste Brazil]

No not bootleggers, I meant dodgy / fake drugs etc, we've all bit a victim at some point...well I have anyway!

Ste.

[Geeselad]

I was too young to have ever gone to Wigan etc, my first niters were at Bradford in the 80's but I've heard countless stories of the bad boys that used to go to Wigan, mugging people, selling dodgy gear and I've met at least two people who were runners for the dealers etc but I was just wondering, was this common at other venues such as Cleethorpes, the Mecca and the other main clubs of the time??

Ste.

Bradford was one of my first nighters where I can distincly remember opening a cubicle in the door and seeing two guys with a piece of orange rubber and a needle.

[Alison H]

Bradford was one of my first nighters where I can distincly remember opening a cubicle in the door and seeing two guys with a piece of orange rubber and a needle.

I'm sure that's what closed it down

[Davetay]

I'm sure that's what closed it down

Them orange rubbers have a lot to answer for.

[Alison H]

Them orange rubbers have a lot to answer for.

You mucky pup x

[dthedrug]

HI ALL.... Sorry to say but yes it was, in fact far to common, You must take note, that our RARE SOUL SCENE did not just happen over night, It was hatched and nurtured from Violent Youth Sub Cultures of the 60ts when it was common place for young people to be Territorial, this was most notable at Football matches where there was always a Territorial thing for decades but with the passing of time the decade became one full of anger (agro!) as the Sub cult's widened and many kids had grown up with the Grey days of the 50s, by the late 60s the word teenager meant much more than it did in the 50s with it's 2 sub cultures of Teddy Boys and Beatniks, although the roots of our scene can be traced back that far, with the love of American music All night dancing and the experimental using of drugs like Cannabis & Bennie's (Benzedrine a Stimulant) being the most popular,

As we entered the 1960s the modernist cult was an elitist sub culture style and nonchalance hand in hand, but not uncouth, once this sub culture developed and people in the know also rose in status, it was not by luck material wealth was the #1 pre-requisite to be a top MOD being elitist was and still is the desire, and as such it brings envy to be as popular, over 5 years 60 - 65 the MOD introduced such a way of being it was not just a cult it was a style to be imitated but with improvements , STYLE meant everything to my broth and sister who were original MODS, even when fighting my Brother had style even when head butting someone, The MODS of were Violent and Territorial common place were Dance Hall Fights on a Saturday night,

I can clearly remember being hustle with the threat of violence for my watch in the toilets of the Flamingo, and it was the same at the Scene Tiles Rm Jam, Ricky Tick clubs California ROYAL, SRETHAM Lyceum,the MECCA Stevenage, if you were not known you were a target, and if you had a reputation you were targeted, even at te Wheel there was trouble,

From 68 the younger MODS embraced the Saturday night kick in or the causing bovver with away supporters at football, my club WEST HAM UNITED FC & Millwall were the top clubs for gang warfare and the start of perhaps the most violent youth sub culture,the Bovver Boy (Skinhead) fashion started there in 68 and the Sub Culture spread quickly a nd peaked at West Ham Late 69 but in the midlands and the north it was still developing. If you look at photos of people who went to the Wheel in 1970 the Fashion is up to date with London but else where people were still getting a #1,

As I stated our Scene comes from this moment of History and the Territorial thing carried on at least to the Jubilee when the mantle was handed to PUNK ROCK, However most people who are in the late 50s earl 60ts who attended and made the scene were capable of most things heavy, but for some reason that I still don't know? is why the the fraternal spirit come about on the SOUL SCENE?

I f you want more info please ask and don't believe some of the crap written by people who were not thee?? I always sold the Proper STUFF DAVE KIL

Edited March 29, 2011 by dthedrug

[Russ Vickers]

My time on the scene doesnt go back to the 6ts, but it always makes me smile when ever I come across some of the sugary, naive nicey, nicey views of the scene some have..........yes, people on the scene will come together to look after thier own usually & I have made some of the best friends I have made anywhere on the scene & generally the darker side is not very overt these days, but scratch the seedy under belly........ .

Anyway, anyone for a nice cake, a nearby hotel or a latte, 'sorry not going this week as I have no money, its too far or what ever', back then, you made the Nighter anyway you could, I could only afford to get the train to Wigan once a month, the rest of the time was jumping the train, hitching, stolen cars (once) & making enough money in other ways to get there next week.

There are some fantastic people, I have made great friends, I have seen immense acts of loyalty & generosity, but the dark side was there alright & can still be too........

Russ

Edited March 26, 2011 by Russ Vickers

[Guest]

HI ALL.... Sorry to say but yes it was, in fact far to common, You must take note, that our RARE SOUL SCENE did not just happen over night, It was hatched and nurtured from Violent Youth Sub Cultures of the 60ts when it was common place for young people to be Territorial, this was most notable at Football matches where there was always a Territorial thing for decades but with the passing of time the decade became one full of anger (agro!) as the Sub cult's widened and many kids had grown up with the Grey days of the 50s, by the late 60s the word teenager meant much more than it did in the 50s with it's 2 sub cultures of Teddy Boys and Beatniks, although the roots of our scene can be traced back that far, with the love of American music All night dancing and the experimental using of drugs like Cannabis & Bennie's (Benzedrine a Stimulant) being the most popular,

As we entered the 1960s the modernist cult was an elitist sub culture style and nonchalance hand in hand, but not uncouth, once this sub culture developed and people in the know also rose in status, it was not by luck material wealth was the #1 pre-requisite to be a top MOD being elitist was and still is the desire, and as such it brings envy to be as popular, over 5 years 60 - 65 the MOD introduced such a way of being it was not just a cult it was a style to be imitated but with improvements , STYLE meant everything to my broth and sister who were original MODS, even when fighting my Brother had style even when head butting someone, The MODS of were Violent and Territorial common place were Dance Hall Fights on a Saturday night,

I can clearly remember being hustle with the threat of violence for my watch in the toilets of the Flamingo, and it was the same at the Scene Tiles Rm Jam, Ricky Tick clubs California ROYAL, SRETHAM Lyceum,the MECCA Stevenage,

if you were not known you were a target, and if you had a reputation you were targeted, even at te Wheel there was trouble,

From 68 the younger MODS embraced the Saturday night kick in or the causing bovver with away supporters at football, my club WEST HAM UNITED FC & Millwall were the top clubs for gang warfare and the start of perhaps the most violent youth sub culture,the Bovver Boy (Skinhead) fashion started there in 68 and the Sub Culture spread quickly a nd peaked at West Ham Late 69 but in the midlands and the north it was still developing. If you look at photos of people who went to the Wheel in 1970 the Fashion is up to date with London but else where people were still getting a #1,

As I stated our Scene comes from this moment of History and the Territorial thing carried on at least to the Jubilee when the mantle was handed to PUNK ROCK, However most people who are in the late 50s earl 60ts who attended and made the scene were capable of most things heavy, but for some reason that I still don't know? is why the the fraternal spirit come about on the SOUL SCENE?

I f you want more info please ask and don't believe some of the crap written by people who were not thee?? I always sold the Proper STUFF DAVE KIL

Great post Dave .

I was taken on my first visit to The Wheel by two lads who were older than me , who thankfully were known to the

" characters " there .

If it had not been for being with them , and their looking out for / after me , I know I would have been rolled or something worse .

Malc

Edited March 26, 2011 by Malc Burton

[Guest Nick Harrison]

I'm sure that's what closed it down

Not too sure about that Alison, but Geeselad is correct, the good soul folks from downstairs did remove several syringe's, before the authorities got wind. If they ever did that is !

Edited March 26, 2011 by Nick Harrison

[Guest James Trouble]

Like all walks of life when there is money involved friends will turn on friends and con men and crooks will masquerade on the dance floor.

Mickey Cruise still owes me money from over two years ago when he sold me a record, I gave him the money but he gave me a completely different record to the one he said he had. I sent the record back but I'm still waiting for the money. I've seen him out and about so he can afford to get into clubs and travel but seemingly he can't be arsed to pay me what he owes me. Most recent communications from this month are here, no point posting the text messages or phone calls he has never replied to in the past two years...

site note - what appears to be facebook personal messages and phone numbers removed by site

[Graym]

Steve (and Russ) totally agree with your sentiments and can relate to some of the experiences referred to.

You're right - most of the literature ignores the 'dark side ' that along with the music made the scene so exciting and appealing.

Andy Wilson's academic work is probably the closest literary reflection of what was going on ( and why ) but of course it only scratches the surface as every town and village had it's very naughty boys ( and girls) !!!

I suggest that most if not all submissions would also have to carry an ALLEGEDLY disclaimer.

[Dean]

Well written and reasoned post by Dave Kil above that gives a balanced perspective. Only thing I would add is that in my experience the endemic football violence of the 70s was put away for the duration of all-nighters as we travelled across the country. I could be suffering from rose coloured memory but I'm sure I discussed with friends at the times that carrying a nighter bag and dressed in a NS uniform was almost like a flag of truce regarding the usual terreced violent rivalry. Travelled by public transport from Mansfield Notts to Peterborough, St Ives, Cleehtorpes, Wigan, Sheffield, sometimes alone sometimes in small groups, with no real problem at a time when other rivalries would lead to trouble.

The media often tagged onto an embelished darker side of the scene IMO. I think the media coverage was the catalyst for a period at the Casino where we expected trouble between the station and station rd.

Enjoyed reading your account Dave.

[Rob Wigley]

Echo Dean's statement above, well we did a lot of travelling together pre getting a car anyway.

But some of the Mansfield "Old Boys" could make your hair curl with tales from the Torch and Wheel and a couple of people from Mansfield

were well to be avoided,

seen it all over the scene throughout the years even up to Prestatyn, mainly "They" gather in dark corners with their entourage 's

it takes all sorts

Rob

[Graym]

I should add the "allegedly" disclaimer being solely for legal reasons rather than suggesting submissions might be exaggerated.

God help us if Shelly gets started on this thread following the Who Shot Who at Troggs.

His memory for dodgy escapades is frightening.

If he writes a book then if there's a hell below we're all gonna go !

[Guest Brett F]

HI ALL.... Sorry to say but yes it was, in fact far to common, You must take note, that our RARE SOUL SCENE did not just happen over night, It was hatched and nurtured from Violent Youth Sub Cultures of the 60ts when it was common place for young people to be Territorial, this was most notable at Football matches where there was always a Territorial thing for decades but with the passing of time the decade became one full of anger (agro!) as the Sub cult's widened and many kids had grown up with the Grey days of the 50s, by the late 60s the word teenager meant much more than it did in the 50s with it's 2 sub cultures of Teddy Boys and Beatniks, although the roots of our scene can be traced back that far, with the love of American music All night dancing and the experimental using of drugs like Cannabis & Bennie's (Benzedrine a Stimulant) being the most popular,

As we entered the 1960s the modernist cult was an elitist sub culture style and nonchalance hand in hand, but not uncouth, once this sub culture developed and people in the know also rose in status, it was not by luck material wealth was the #1 pre-requisite to be a top MOD being elitist was and still is the desire, and as such it brings envy to be as popular, over 5 years 60 - 65 the MOD introduced such a way of being it was not just a cult it was a style to be imitated but with improvements , STYLE meant everything to my broth and sister who were original MODS, even when fighting my Brother had style even when head butting someone, The MODS of were Violent and Territorial common place were Dance Hall Fights on a Saturday night,

I can clearly remember being hustle with the threat of violence for my watch in the toilets of the Flamingo, and it was the same at the Scene Tiles Rm Jam, Ricky Tick clubs California ROYAL, SRETHAM Lyceum,the MECCA Stevenage, if you were not known you were a target, and if you had a reputation you were targeted, even at te Wheel there was trouble,

From 68 the younger MODS embraced the Saturday night kick in or the causing bovver with away supporters at football, my club WEST HAM UNITED FC & Millwall were the top clubs for gang warfare and the start of perhaps the most violent youth sub culture,the Bovver Boy (Skinhead) fashion started there in 68 and the Sub Culture spread quickly a nd peaked at West Ham Late 69 but in the midlands and the north it was still developing. If you look at photos of people who went to the Wheel in 1970 the Fashion is up to date with London but else where people were still getting a #1,

As I stated our Scene comes from this moment of History and the Territorial thing carried on at least to the Jubilee when the mantle was handed to PUNK ROCK, However most people who are in the late 50s earl 60ts who attended and made the scene were capable of most things heavy, but for some reason that I still don't know? is why the the fraternal spirit come about on the SOUL SCENE?

I f you want more info please ask and don't believe some of the crap written by people who were not thee?? I always sold the Proper STUFF DAVE KIL

Hi Dave great post, fascinating stuff, but have to say (non soul related) that you're opinion that late 69 the North and Midlands (football hooligans) were still developing is very wrong, my team Sheffield United and legendary figures such as Ronnie Sharp and Wafer were going on London terraces mid 66 and onwards, famously going to the shed at Chelsea armed with walking sticks and taking it to the foes full on, its all well documented, the culture of the football hooligan has its roots in as you say in the sub youth cultures of the 1960's, but please do not try and claim everything started in London...I was a product of the 80's football fan, 15/16 years old in 1980, we always looked down on the southern firms as basically skinheads in flight jackets and martins, when my crowd were in slazenger sweaters, adidas gazelles and skin tight inega jeans....So i believe the northern football firms (Liverpool as leaders of this European sportswear inspired fashion) were without doubt ahead in the fashion youth culture stakes....

Edited March 27, 2011 by Brett F

[Guest JIM BARRY]

Hi Dave great post, fascinating stuff, but have to say (non soul related) that you're opinion that late 69 the North and Midlands (football hooligans) were still developing is very wrong, my team Sheffield United and legendary figures such as Ronnie Sharp and Wafer were going on London terraces mid 66 and onwards, famously going to the shed at Chelsea armed with walking sticks and taking it to the foes full on, its all well documented, the culture of the football hooligan has its roots in as you say in the sub youth cultures of the 1960's, but please do not try and claim everything started in London...I was a product of the 80's football fan, 15/16 years old in 1980, we always looked down on the southern firms as basically skinheads in flight jackets and martins, when my crowd were in slazenger sweaters, adidas gazelles and skin tight inega jeans....So i believe the northern football firms (Liverpool as leaders of this European sportswear inspired fashion) were without doubt ahead in the fashion youth culture stakes....

i seem to remember a lot of the man city faces wearing sergio tacchini jackets and lacoste tops in the 80s...the main boys were the cool kats and the young governors.

[Guest tonyolly]

Echo Dean's statement above, well we did a lot of travelling together pre getting a car anyway.

But some of the Mansfield "Old Boys" could make your hair curl with tales from the Torch and Wheel and a couple of people from Mansfield

were well to be avoided,

seen it all over the scene throughout the years even up to Prestatyn, mainly "They" gather in dark corners with their entourage 's

it takes all sorts

Rob

go for a pint with steve (STUDGE) & TROT most saturdays they can tell a tale or two.......hope you keeping ok rob

[shelly]

Just checking libel laws and copyright before I start, Mecca Village Trowell would be a good starting point if anyone can remember.

Rob, I take it you're on about Brendan and Tiny(deceased) from the really old boys in Mansfield, or Studgy Pete from the newer lot?

Gray, as the other half of the soul twins, you where there on many of the occasions that you can't remember.

Think we need an afernoon in the Brunswick et al to discuss this book!

Shelly

[Geeselad]

Hi Dave great post, fascinating stuff, but have to say (non soul related) that you're opinion that late 69 the North and Midlands (football hooligans) were still developing is very wrong, my team Sheffield United and legendary figures such as Ronnie Sharp and Wafer were going on London terraces mid 66 and onwards, famously going to the shed at Chelsea armed with walking sticks and taking it to the foes full on, its all well documented, the culture of the football hooligan has its roots in as you say in the sub youth cultures of the 1960's, but please do not try and claim everything started in London...I was a product of the 80's football fan, 15/16 years old in 1980, we always looked down on the southern firms as basically skinheads in flight jackets and martins, when my crowd were in slazenger sweaters, adidas gazelles and skin tight inega jeans....So i believe the northern football firms (Liverpool as leaders of this European sportswear inspired fashion) were without doubt ahead in the fashion youth culture stakes....

Spot on, thats how I remember it too, liverpool and manc scallies started wearing 'gear' first without a doubt well documented in several books.

[Spacehopper]

wasnt at nites in the 60s or 70s but for me the scooter rallies of the 80s were full of trouble including north/south divide and football related...still got photos of the aftermath of mini riot in a pub at lunchtime lunchtime,cant remember where,one seaside town looks the same as another 25 years on!.....all scooterists drinkin together to start with...then the football songs started as the pints went down...then the pub got smashed to bits...my photos of the two sides on opposite side of the street with black police vans everywhere...

can also remember the clacton 'mod' rally in 85,been to a tony class do we seemed to be the only ones not from london..sitting on a wall outside a chippy too pissed to stand,someone talking to me about london next thing he twats me around the head with a walking stick with a metal handle..as you'd expect i went down like a sack of s***..can remember hearing my mate sticking up for me and he got some too...his mrs wouldnt speak to me for weeks

i dont do so many scooter rallies today and they like the soul scene arnt so violent but its still there sometimes...weston last year or the year before..bristol and cardiff,started over pushing at the bar but local football rivalry probably didnt help...that was in the main venue and you could feel the tension as soon as you went in so we went back to the 'soul only' venue where it was a lot more chilled

as for the ' casuals' in the 80s can remember them ....as a scooterist had some run ins with them too !

think its all a bit more chilled today on the whole as MOST people have grown up and couldnt give a f*** anymore,nuffin to prove

also some shit gear sold on rallies back then...so im told

dean

[KevH]

Just checking libel laws and copyright before I start, Mecca Village Trowell would be a good starting point if anyone can remember.

Rob, I take it you're on about Brendan and Tiny(deceased) from the really old boys in Mansfield, or Studgy Pete from the newer lot?

Gray, as the other half of the soul twins, you where there on many of the occasions that you can't remember.

Think we need an afernoon in the Brunswick et al to discuss this book!

Shelly

Hi Shelly,think Brendan (Muldoon) no longer with us as well.Pete Studge still around sort of.As Olly says,he's got some tales,right character.You'll know Mick Padley (Pags),Johnny Warner etc..not saying these are villains btw.

[Rob Wigley]

go for a pint with steve (STUDGE) & TROT most saturdays they can tell a tale or two.......hope you keeping ok rob

I 'll see you around soon tony- your cousin tells a good tale or two

[Rob Wigley]

Just checking libel laws and copyright before I start, Mecca Village Trowell would be a good starting point if anyone can remember.

Rob, I take it you're on about Brendan and Tiny(deceased) from the really old boys in Mansfield, or Studgy Pete from the newer lot?

Gray, as the other half of the soul twins, you where there on many of the occasions that you can't remember.

Think we need an afernoon in the Brunswick et al to discuss this book!

Shelly

I once saw Brendan teaching an eighteen month old kid to smoke--and I'm not joking

As Kev says they are both dead,

Mansfield old boys used to scare the shit out of me, till you got to know them that is

but there have been some real psycho's further afield

Rob

[Dean]

Hi Shelly,think Brendan (Muldoon) no longer with us as well.Pete Studge still around sort of.As Olly says,he's got some tales,right character.You'll know Mick Padley (Pags),Johnny Warner etc..not saying these are villains btw.

:yes: oh yes you are but you know you're gonna bump into 'em, Johnny Warner not a villain Dean

[Guest proudlove]

Many moons ago I was taken for a drink in Mansfield,now no names,no pack drill,(I can't fokkin remember!) we are going to my local,you are going to love this,why,says I,...........There is a young man that has been picked on by a fool for a while,and it is going to be sorted this afternoon..........................yup it was sorted,the lad that was being picked on had had enough...............blood hair and skin everywhere.............

Edited March 28, 2011 by proudlove

[KevH]

I once saw Brendan teaching an eighteen month old kid to smoke--and I'm not joking

As Kev says they are both dead,

Mansfield old boys used to scare the shit out of me, till you got to know them that is

but there have been some real psycho's further afield

Rob

Platt Newton.Again not a true villain,but near..More of a scally. .Think he's still alive.

[Guest tonyolly]

I 'll see you around soon tony- your cousin tells a good tale or two

djed with studge last summer MADO turned up they were talking about all the swan lot going to wigan & mado moved to bournemouth with them all ask im to tell those stories

[Guest Ste Brazil]

wasnt at nites in the 60s or 70s but for me the scooter rallies of the 80s were full of trouble including north/south divide and football related...still got photos of the aftermath of mini riot in a pub at lunchtime lunchtime,cant remember where,one seaside town looks the same as another 25 years on!.....all scooterists drinkin together to start with...then the football songs started as the pints went down...then the pub got smashed to bits...my photos of the two sides on opposite side of the street with black police vans everywhere...

can also remember the clacton 'mod' rally in 85,been to a tony class do we seemed to be the only ones not from london..sitting on a wall outside a chippy too pissed to stand,someone talking to me about london next thing he twats me around the head with a walking stick with a metal handle..as you'd expect i went down like a sack of s***..can remember hearing my mate sticking up for me and he got some too...his mrs wouldnt speak to me for weeks

i dont do so many scooter rallies today and they like the soul scene arnt so violent but its still there sometimes...weston last year or the year before..bristol and cardiff,started over pushing at the bar but local football rivalry probably didnt help...that was in the main venue and you could feel the tension as soon as you went in so we went back to the 'soul only' venue where it was a lot more chilled

as for the ' casuals' in the 80s can remember them ....as a scooterist had some run ins with them too !

think its all a bit more chilled today on the whole as MOST people have grown up and couldnt give a f*** anymore,nuffin to prove

also some shit gear sold on rallies back then...so im told

dean

I can certainly relate to all of the above, great times but it seemed like we were at war with everybody, we had no allies that's for sure!

Ste.

[dthedrug]

:thumbsup: Hi All ..First of all thanks for the Feedback, and although I am right , I always accept that my opinion may differ from others, and it is worth noting that History is just an opinion put foreword by any individual who wants to mention the importance of an event or a period of time, and euphoric recall distorts the validity of an event, hence the police tend to look for as many independent witness's as possible if the intend to prosecute. And it is down to the reader to either accept the reading as the truth or is second hand sensationalism?.

The very fact that I state that the issue of WEST HAM UNITED as being the true home of the BOVVER BOY, BOOT BOY is fact as the BB stands for Borstal Boy "BB" the term SKINHEAD to my ears, was a northern expression that some journalist used to describe the Whitson Bank Holiday 1969, I had never herd it before then, to describe the latent mods of the 60ts, the word annoys me far more than I can express in this post, less to say the word congers up some late 70ts punks with right wing values that would have received a kick in, back in 69 as there maladjusted outlook was a product of lack of imagination, trying to invent the wheel while on EVO is not what the issue is about at all,

In my piece on this three, I attempted to answer the question on Villon's who established the soul scene, and later our scene the original Norther Soul Scene, and to make my point I drew reference to a parallel sub culture that is the only surviver along with our scene, the football fan along with all the obsessive behavior that is attached to it,

There is a saying in London "never drink in a Public Bar in a strange Manor" as this is so true especially in the late 60ts early 70ts, at a time when most City centerers where of limits to strangers, whether you went to the early clubs or not, they were always in places where you would never normally spend Saturday night, And for the locals it gave them a monopoly on how things were run!

If it had not been for the BBs the term "streetwise" might never come about, as trust me, in the early days of Rare Soul Clubs or the Soho Scene, especially if like me intended to sell Dubes, you had to be able to handle a situation and be forceful, especially if the place was profitable, as you had to go back in there again or hand it all over to a nobody? (to this day I can remember the names of those people who pulled a fast one on the boys from the South who took the gear to the Torch & Wigan) and I know if you went to the TORCH you will recall 2 lads from Luton getting rolled in the bogs again the expression from London comes to mind "Don't shit the bed and then sleep in it" or "don't shit on your Manor" as it is down right not done,

" years ago I wrote "MORE THAN SKIN DEEP" a sort of account of different bits of my life, to put right some of the crap thats talked about the youth sub cultures, as what I have read & seen is always incorrect or narrated by someone who was to young, however these accounts have become History, and to make my point if I said something like "the best and most soulful night at Wigan Casino was the Night Wigans Ovation sang Superlove?" as to the football point! I no that WHUFC supporters did not invent violence in 69, what I stated the concept of a united firm in a uniform was a product from WHUFC & MFC and by the time it had spread to the Midlands and the North as a sub culture the style had changed, to me and most Londoners my experience of the north an it's gangs from the time, the resembled grebes and Teddy boys in hobnail Pit Boots and Donkey Jackets all of them seem to be much older than the average age of the West Ham Boot Boys ( 15 to 18 year olds) that is my point, PLUS Don't confuse my views on WHUFC with all that dribble from supporters of Cass Pennant? ICF he may be? but he was not a part of the "SPIRIT OF 69" nor were the balding men who at the age of 40 something in the football tops (twats the lot of them) we were Kids growing up, most of these kind of people are NONCES

Edited March 29, 2011 by dthedrug

[Little-stevie]

:thumbsup: Hi All ..First of all thanks for the Feedback, and although I am right , I always accept that my opinion may differ from others, and it is worth noting that History is just an opinion put foreword by any individual who wants to mention the importance of an event or a period of time, and euphoric recall distorts the validity of an event, hence the police tend to look for as many independent witness's as possible if the intend to prosecute. And it is down to the reader to either accept the reading as the truth or is second hand sensationalism?.

The very fact that I state that the issue of WEST HAM UNITED as being the true home of the BOVVER BOY, BOOT BOY is fact as the BB stands for Borstal Boy "BB" the term SKINHEAD to my ears, was a northern expression that some journalist used to describe the Whitson Bank Holiday 1969, I had never herd it before then, to describe the latent mods of the 60ts, the word annoys me far more than I can express in this post, less to say the word congers up some late 70ts punks with right wing values that would have received a kick in, back in 69 as there maladjusted outlook was a product of lack of imagination, trying to invent the wheel while on EVO is not what the issue is about at all,

In my piece on this three, I attempted to answer the question on Villon's who established the soul scene, and later our scene the original Norther Soul Scene, and to make my point I drew reference to a parallel sub culture that is the only surviver along with our scene, the football fan along with all the obsessive behavior that is attached to it,

There is a saying in London "never drink in a Public Bar in a strange Manor" as this is so true especially in the late 60ts early 70ts, at a time when most City centerers where of limits to strangers, whether you went to the early clubs or not, they were always in places where you would never normally spend Saturday night, And for the locals it gave them a monopoly on how things were run!

If it had not been for the BBs the term "streetwise" might never come about, as trust me, in the early days of Rare Soul Clubs or the Soho Scene, especially if like me intended to sell Dubes, you had to be able to handle a situation and be forceful, especially if the place was profitable, as you had to go back in there again or hand it all over to a nobody? (to this day I can remember the names of those people who pulled a fast one on the boys from the South who took the gear to the Torch & Wigan) and I know if you went to the TORCH you will recall 2 lads from Luton getting rolled in the bogs again the expression from London comes to mind "Don't shit the bed and then sleep in it" or "don't shit on your Manor" as it is down right not done,

" years ago I wrote "MORE THAN SKIN DEEP" a sort of account of different bits of my life, to put right some of the crap thats talked about the youth sub cultures, as what I have read & seen is always incorrect or narrated by someone who was to young, however these accounts have become History, and to make my point if I said something like "the best and most soulful night at Wigan Casino was the Night Wigans Ovation sang Superlove?" as to the football point! I no that WHUFC supporters did not invent violence in 69, what I stated the concept of a united firm in a uniform was a product from WHUFC & MFC and by the time it had spread to the Midlands and the North as a sub culture the style had changed, to me and most Londoners my experience of the north an it's gangs from the time, the resembled grebes and Teddy boys in hobnail Pit Boots and Donkey Jackets all of them seem to be much older than the average age of the West Ham Boot Boys ( 15 to 18 year olds) that is my point, PLUS Don't confuse my views on WHUFC with all that dribble from supporters of Cass Pennant? ICF he may be? but he was not a part of the "SPIRIT OF 69" nor were the balding men who at the age of 40 something in the football tops (twats the lot of them) we were Kids growing up, most of these kind of people are NONCES

I would be first in line to buy your book mate .. And would like to meet you one day and here a few real stories..

I must have been going around in a bubble since i started on the scene in 81 or maybe its because i was on the dancefloor all the time and kept out of them dark corners ...

The dark side is a place that many would never know about, being just a weekend thing, we turn up, meet/ greet, dance all night and train/ car/ scooter home at 8am...

We never did them after parties , that could have burst my bubble i guess....

[Guest JONZZIE]

HI JAMES, BEEN THERE DONE THAT WITH THE CHAP YOU HAVE MENTIONED.HE WILL NEVER CHANGE.HE WILL ONE DAY DO THE SAME TO THE WRONG PERSON.JUST BIDE YOUR TIME AND WATCH THIS SPACE. IT BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE HIM THAT I DONT GO OUT MUCH THESE DAYS.GREAT TIME AT THE BEDROOMS IN LONDON A FEW YEARS AGO...J

[Kegsy]

Have to agree with Dave Kil on this one.

Although football violence was already in full swing well before Skinheads

came into being, the Skinheads took it to a new level.

I would agree that the Shinhead/Bovver Boy thing originated

in London.I was involved, loosely as I was only 12/13, with a notorious gang

of Leeds fans who all wore steel cap boots and combat jackets as their

"uniform". In about 1968 we met our first skinhead, who for some reason

was a Chelsea fan from Bradford. Within weeks the gang were all wearing Levis,Braces and

the haircuts, lets face it the "look" itself was intimidating.

The "casuals", ICF and all that stuff was well after and really had nothing to do with

Skinheads, who had reverted to Mods/Scooter boys, although many retained

the dress code.

I started going to All-Nighters just after the Wheel closed and most of

us who started at that time were "suedeheads" i.e. ex skinheads who

had drifted/moved away from the football violence thing.

We had adopted the "Mod" ethic again, and started to dress

more stylishly.

We were a sort of counter culture to the "hairies",Hippys etc

who were using Dope/LSD.

With regard to Villains etc I would say that the scene, especially in

the early days, have more than its fair share. The L'Ambassaador in Bradford

was usiually about 50/50 villains and non villains.

Lets face it the lifestyle did not lend itself to holding

down a job and being a "regular" guy.

I too also get a bit dogged off by the "clean" image that is often

portrayed about the Northern Scene.As someone has already said if you

didnt know who was who and have enough mates around, you were gonna get rolled, end of.

Cheers

Kegsy

[Petedillon]

Did you know Jack Slinger and the Shipley skins then, Kegsy?

Great thread this! I spent all my youth juggling all-nighters and Leeds United. Many a comedown has been sweated out ona Saturday afternoon on some terrace. The fledgling all-nighter scene and football fashion/violence was always closely linked .

It even got to the point we were getting pilled up to go to away games..A right buzz..

Crazy days indeed! Some of the northern scenes old villains were also some of the football worlds top boys..

[Rob Wigley]

I've probably heard a few of them LOL

[Guest martyn]

Hi All ..First of all thanks for the Feedback, and although I am right , I always accept that my opinion may differ from others, and it is worth noting that History is just an opinion put foreword by any individual who wants to mention the importance of an event or a period of time, and euphoric recall distorts the validity of an event, hence the police tend to look for as many independent witness's as possible if the intend to prosecute. And it is down to the reader to either accept the reading as the truth or is second hand sensationalism?.

The very fact that I state that the issue of WEST HAM UNITED as being the true home of the BOVVER BOY, BOOT BOY is fact as the BB stands for Borstal Boy "BB" the term SKINHEAD to my ears, was a northern expression that some journalist used to describe the Whitson Bank Holiday 1969, I had never herd it before then, to describe the latent mods of the 60ts, the word annoys me far more than I can express in this post, less to say the word congers up some late 70ts punks with right wing values that would have received a kick in, back in 69 as there maladjusted outlook was a product of lack of imagination, trying to invent the wheel while on EVO is not what the issue is about at all,

In my piece on this three, I attempted to answer the question on Villon's who established the soul scene, and later our scene the original Norther Soul Scene, and to make my point I drew reference to a parallel sub culture that is the only surviver along with our scene, the football fan along with all the obsessive behavior that is attached to it,

There is a saying in London "never drink in a Public Bar in a strange Manor" as this is so true especially in the late 60ts early 70ts, at a time when most City centerers where of limits to strangers, whether you went to the early clubs or not, they were always in places where you would never normally spend Saturday night, And for the locals it gave them a monopoly on how things were run!

If it had not been for the BBs the term "streetwise" might never come about, as trust me, in the early days of Rare Soul Clubs or the Soho Scene, especially if like me intended to sell Dubes, you had to be able to handle a situation and be forceful, especially if the place was profitable, as you had to go back in there again or hand it all over to a nobody? (to this day I can remember the names of those people who pulled a fast one on the boys from the South who took the gear to the Torch & Wigan) and I know if you went to the TORCH you will recall 2 lads from Luton getting rolled in the bogs again the expression from London comes to mind "Don't shit the bed and then sleep in it" or "don't shit on your Manor" as it is down right not done,

" years ago I wrote "MORE THAN SKIN DEEP" a sort of account of different bits of my life, to put right some of the crap thats talked about the youth sub cultures, as what I have read & seen is always incorrect or narrated by someone who was to young, however these accounts have become History, and to make my point if I said something like "the best and most soulful night at Wigan Casino was the Night Wigans Ovation sang Superlove?" as to the football point! I no that WHUFC supporters did not invent violence in 69, what I stated the concept of a united firm in a uniform was a product from WHUFC & MFC and by the time it had spread to the Midlands and the North as a sub culture the style had changed, to me and most Londoners my experience of the north an it's gangs from the time, the resembled grebes and Teddy boys in hobnail Pit Boots and Donkey Jackets all of them seem to be much older than the average age of the West Ham Boot Boys ( 15 to 18 year olds) that is my point, PLUS Don't confuse my views on WHUFC with all that dribble from supporters of Cass Pennant? ICF he may be? but he was not a part of the "SPIRIT OF 69" nor were the balding men who at the age of 40 something in the football tops (twats the lot of them) we were Kids growing up, most of these kind of people are NONCES

Dave , first of all enjoyed most of your post However , in 1967 Manchester United brought the boot boy culture to West Ham on the last day of the season & as you well know your lot exacted revenge most terrible in 1975 . In turn United had been given the idea from Everton , who in 1965 had turned up early to the game & occupied The Stretford End . To the best of my knowledge nobody has done that before or since . So yes while WHU was probably one of the hotbeds of FV in the late 60s early 70s to say that they started the boot boy thing is I belive false , though perhaps they may have been the first to use the phrase BB to describe how themselves & others outside of WHU looked & behaved .

Other than that , get that book written mate , I'd buy it !

Edited March 29, 2011 by martyn

[KevH]

Hi Shelly,think Brendan (Muldoon) no longer with us as well.Pete Studge still around sort of.As Olly says,he's got some tales,right character.You'll know Mick Padley (Pags),Johnny Warner etc..not saying these are villains btw.

Meant of course STEVE Studge not Pete..i'll put that one down to old age.Pete's his brother,nothing to do with this thread.Apologies.

[KevH]

djed with studge last summer MADO turned up they were talking about all the swan lot going to wigan & mado moved to bournemouth with them all ask im to tell those stories

Tony,you mean Johnny Maddocks?.If so,went to school with him.Took me on my first trip to Wigan,with Poz,Rob Hallam,Curly,Tats,and me.

6 in a mini...

[dthedrug]

HI ALL ..i DON'T THINK! THAT THE MAN UNITED BOUGHT THE SAME TYPE OF BOOT BOY I AM TALKING ABOUT, WITH THE GREATEST RESPECT, HOWEVER THEY EVENTUALLY DID TAKE THE NORTH BANK, NOT THE CHICKEN RUN THO AND AS YOU NO IT WAS NOT EASY, IT WAS THE LAST TIME IT HAPPENED AND ALONG WITH THE WEST HAM FAN WHO GOT KICKED TO DEATH BY THE NOTTS FOREST FANS AT THE END OF THAT SEASON THAT'LL THE CREWS OF EAST LONDON AND ESSEX STOPPED ANY INFIGHTING AND JOINED TOGETHER AS THE FIRM, IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN AGAIN AND AS SUCH WE CROPPED OUR HEADS SO THE OLD BILL JUST DID NOT HAVE A CLUE WHO WAS WHO! SO BECAUSE OF MAN UNITED ACTIONS THE SKINHEAD WAS BORN, I REMEMBER GOING TO OLD TRAFFORD IN 68/ 69 SEASON ALONG WITH THE OLD MEN AND OLD DEARS THERE WERE 5 OF US, ONE BLOKE TOOK THE STRETFORD END, I NEVER SAW HIM AGAIN , I LANDED UP IN ONE OF THOSE BET LYNCH TYPE GAFFS WITH THAT SQUEEZE BOX FOLK MUSIC,

THEN WENT TO THE WHEEL. T TERRIFIC! DAVE

[manus]

Dave , first of all enjoyed most of your post However , in 1967 Manchester United brought the boot boy culture to West Ham on the last day of the season & as you well know your lot exacted revenge most terrible in 1975 . In turn United had been given the idea from Everton , who in 1965 had turned up early to the game & occupied The Stretford End . To the best of my knowledge nobody has done that before or since . So yes while WHU was probably one of the hotbeds of FV in the late 60s early 70s to say that they started the boot boy thing is I belive false , though perhaps they may have been the first to use the phrase BB to describe how themselves & others outside of WHU looked & behaved .

Other than that , get that book written mate , I'd buy it !

Newcastle did a similar thing to Everton at Sunderland 69/70 and got into the Fulwell End before the Sunderland fans. We tried to do the same at Leeds on Boxing Day 1970 ( maybe Kegsy and Pete Dillon might remember) but the Leeds fans came in late and chased us down to the front and then it was pennies from heaven for the rest of the game. I was a 14 year old suedehead at the time and it was pretty hairy but a laugh apart from getting beat 3-0 and dodging the pennies.

Cheers

Manus

[Davetay]

Dave , first of all enjoyed most of your post However , in 1967 Manchester United brought the boot boy culture to West Ham on the last day of the season & as you well know your lot exacted revenge most terrible in 1975 . In turn United had been given the idea from Everton , who in 1965 had turned up early to the game & occupied The Stretford End . To the best of my knowledge nobody has done that before or since . So yes while WHU was probably one of the hotbeds of FV in the late 60s early 70s to say that they started the boot boy thing is I belive false , though perhaps they may have been the first to use the phrase BB to describe how themselves & others outside of WHU looked & behaved .

Other than that , get that book written mate , I'd buy it !

It wasn;t the last day of the season. it was our last away game, and the day we won the league., winning 1-6

We still had Stoke at home to play, which ended 0-0

Edited March 29, 2011 by davetay

[Petedillon]

Newcastle did a similar thing to Everton at Sunderland 69/70 and got into the Fulwell End before the Sunderland fans. We tried to do the same at Leeds on Boxing Day 1970 ( maybe Kegsy and Pete Dillon might remember) but the Leeds fans came in late and chased us down to the front and then it was pennies from heaven for the rest of the game. I was a 14 year old suedehead at the time and it was pretty hairy but a laugh apart from getting beat 3-0 and dodging the pennies.

Cheers

Manus

I do indeed remember it . A fair few ended up over the wall onto the pitch if I recall!

[manus]

I do indeed remember it . A fair few ended up over the wall onto the pitch if I recall!

Yes a fair few were wise enough to get out altogether - we foolishly stayed I could never watch Morecambe and Wise singing "bring me sunshine" without putting my hands over my head to ward pennies off lol.

Of course it was "You are my sunshine" the Leeds fans used to sing wasn't it?

Edited March 29, 2011 by manus

[Guest tonyolly]

Meant of course STEVE Studge not Pete..i'll put that one down to old age.Pete's his brother,nothing to do with this thread.Apologies.

pete studge did a lot more of everything than steve ever did top top man not to be fukd with, drinks in the talbot ,steve tells lots of stories of what pete got up to

[KevH]

pete studge did a lot more of everything than steve ever did top top man not to be fukd with, drinks in the talbot ,steve tells lots of stories of what pete got up to

[Col Wolfe]

can also remember the clacton 'mod' rally in 85,been to a tony class do we seemed to be the only ones not from london..sitting on a wall outside a chippy too pissed to stand,someone talking to me about london next thing he twats me around the head with a walking stick with a metal handle..as you'd expect i went down like a sack of s***..can remember hearing my mate sticking up for me and he got some too...his mrs wouldnt speak to me for weeks

I seem to recall Ed Pillar carrying a cane with him around that time haha

Edited March 29, 2011 by Col Wolfe

[Gelderd Ender]

good old days manus

Andy.

[Gelderd Ender]

Hi Manus,

That was the good old days !! alltogether now "you are my sunshine ,my only sunshine you make me happy when skies are grey ,don't ever take my leeds away.

Atb

Andy.

[Guest martyn]

It wasn;t the last day of the season. it was our last away game, and the day we won the league., winning 1-6

We still had Stoke at home to play, which ended 0-0

Oh well , close but no cigar