James Jamerson and Carol kaye revisited

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

I'm a musician, bass player in fact among other things, anyone wanting to see some credentials can pm me and get directed to my YT, some here already have, I've been doing it now for over 40 years, I've lived in various places but wherever I went I was always the best bass player in town and have never been skint because of it, and that is how you measure this. This isn't about Northern, which is garage music. In terms of bass it's amateurish at best and that's being generous, while I love it, I could get you playing 'I can't get away' or Sandi Sheldon or Sam Dees in an hour session.

 

I've studied Carol Kaye, James Jamerson, Paul MaCartney, Chris Squire, Jaco, Clarke, Jo Osborne, Rutger Gunnarrson, you name 'em, all of it pretty much. Not much I can't do, call my bluff if you want.

 

I've read the content here, and on every forum on the net on this subject.

 

OK so here's the bit where I rip apart one of my all time greatest heroes, James Jamerson. Firstly Jamerson is a legend, a master of the bass, an upright player who, by Berry Gordy's insistance was made to switch to the 'Fender Bass' (guitar) early on, this instrument wasn't even invented till 51. Jamerson was a Jazz player from Carolina, moved to Detroit with his upright and scored a job at Motown. An imposing black guy, he loved to drink, fight, womanise and play bass, a man after my own heart, he did all very well. He went to Motown and later died broken hearted because he was an unkown until players like myself began showing an interest in him on the internet in it's embryonic state early nineties.

 

Make no mistake here, I am a massive fan of the man, when I play a Motown hit onstage I play one finger, the 'Jamerson hook', you can't do it otherwise, you get a ghosted note having to hit a muted string in order to get the rythm going, two fingers you lose it, it doesn't sound like Motown anymore, hard to describe, again ask and you shall be provided. Jamerson was a huge part of the production process in Detroit and never really got the acknowledgement he deserved, isn't that always the way with this type of guy? In the internet age Jamerson became the poster boy for Motown, a tough no-nonsense guy from the ghettoes, hard drinking, hard womanising, jazz playing moonlighter always one step ahead of 'no moonlighting' Berry Gordy, as I said a hero, long live his legacy, a Motown legend, part of the production/writing side and undeniably a face of the black music scene in Detroit, therein lies the rub.

 

As a Bass teacher I taught my lads and lasses that Jamerson was 'the man' only for them to come back and say 'oh I watched this documentary last night and he didn't play on Bernadette it was a white guy', or 'he didn't play 'Darling Dear it was'...'He didn't play 'Reach out'...etc etc. Although appearing in the Marvin Gaye 'What's goin on' live videos, he didn't come on the UK Motown tour, that bass player was some 17 year old kid whose name isn't very much revered at all, I would have to look it up, yes a 17 year old kid could play it and make it sound real.

 

Now I like a good yarn, moreso than the next man, I can give out one or two myself I'm well known for it, and they contain elements of truth, but a good legend is exactly that.

 

I used to think that Bootsy played bass on Cosmic slop, and that Eddie Hazel played the guitar on the live shows and that Pink Floyd actually were involved in playing on their own recordings (Snowy White and Guy Pratt anyone?), that John Entwistle played bass on The Who albums (Macartney no less!) That Ringo, not Alan White from YES played the drums, that Jimi Hendrix played guitar on Electric Ladyland, not a team of four guitarists,

 

So who was this fox in black boots, with the Marilyn Munro hair and Cat-eye sunglasses, with the Fender Bass in the Brian Wilson 'Pet Sounds' vids? Now we get into the real Bass world. Carol Kaye was the go-to player for the likes of Phil Spector, she did everything from The Shangri Las to Frank Sinatra to Elvis Presley to Neil Sedaka, sure she played bass on 'God only knows' and 'Good Vibrations' everyone knows that surely. A consumate professional that could handle anything, believe me if you can make Brian Wilsons' musical halucinations into reality you can handle anything. We aren't talking here about a Carolina pauper who learned to play by twanging the strings of a smashed piano in a derelict church now, we are talking a trained professional.

 

Now I know about the books like 'Standing in the shadows' etc, and while I appreciate a good yarn as I have said, you have to face the reality, Motown as a black ghetto label was never gonna admit to using California session players on it's landmark hits, well ok, why establish an arm in LA then? When they started having huge hits and the money came rolling in it makes sense to upgrade, sure you had to pay Carol Kaye more than Jamerson who would've been on a 'wage' but everyone knows that quality you pay top rate for, and when it comes to hits you get what you pay for. Carol would have had no problem with recreating the Motown sound of Mary wells 'My Guy' 'Baby love' and 'Where did our love go' to believe otherwise is just plain naive. She could also do this without the Whiskey, the confrontation and more importantly in one take!

 

So I have read what well-respected musicologists and archivists have said here about this and while no disrepect is intended they know zip about this, being a good spinner of tunes with a good ear is one thing but it isn't this. Biographers get what they're given and accept what suits their agenda and what doesn't is rejected.

 

A hundred million people worldwide have grooved to Carol Kayes' bass, many have this very night and many more will tomorrow night, she recorded every 'date' (as she called them) and paid union dues accordingly for every one. Jamerson was a face at Motown who came up with many, many landmark bass lines that today are reckoned among the best ever played, you might be listening to a landmark one he came up with, but it doesn't mean you're listening to his 'stick' on the recording though...As if it mattered. Further, as a session player at various intervals, I can state that at times, if a recording has 'hit' written all over it, part of the contract to play on it often has a disclaimer stating 'I will not grass' on it! Sometimes people don't honour that part of it and the facts come out at some point later. Frankie goes to Hollywood's relax by The Blockheads? While it's nice to imagine your favourite group as the musical heroes you have to know that music is a business and is subject to all the rules and subterfuge that any business uses to ensure success. Again it doesn't apply much to Northern soul as it's mostly backing tracks or garage bands although some may be professional backing bands making a small wage in a small local studio.

 

Kiss or Pink Floyd fans might be better off erasing this post from their memory! YES fans can relax.

 

[BrianB]

Thank you for that. I prefer the Alan Slutzky version myself. Shame he knows zip.

[David Meikle]

This from Soulfuldetroit in 2002. Allan Slutzky's words.

That case was dropped when Carole's lawyer was presented with the proof we'd obtained that disproved her claims. (Subpoened union contracts, Motown studio logs that contradicted her work logs, signed notarized affidavits from Motown producers, etc.)

 

[David Meikle]

https://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/kaye/

More detail which should end this fantasy once and for all.

James Jamerson RIP

[Chalky]

I always believed the Carol Kaye claims were rubbish and the document of David's finally dispels the rubbish.  Interesting read.

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Thanks for the replies folks. 

So basically there's no new developments then, nothing there that I haven't read already years ago.

Thing for me as a Massive Jamerson fan, is I still don't know exactly what he DID play on. Every time  I/we think we have the facts it turns out that 'Wilton Felder or Bobb Babbitt played that'... Or someone else, these examples continue to emerge.

Fact regarding Carol Kaye is that she irrefutably DID play a hell of a lot of stuff for Motown, it matters little what the tracks actually were, in fact these people probably think it a bit strange that folks are even discussing these questions. As for Carol Kayes' contribution to popular music in those decades, that isn't and cannot be disputed. It far outweighs her contemporaries.

The fans of Jamerson, and be in no doubt, I am one, in a big way, are always gonna be happy to assume that he played on every one. He didn't, not only that but folks are very good at stating what Kaye DIDNT play but are still not conclusive as to what Jamerson DID.

I'd still be very interested in reading any posts that aren't knee-jerk reactions, or about people dropping out of Law-suits etc, I suppose what we Jamerson historians would really like is a definitive list of what the great man actually did play on, that is the point really.

Really the jury is still out, memories fade as people get older, to try to get a definitive account of these matters, is the same as trying to get someone to recall every detail of 'another day at the office' fifty years ago. These people were 'workmen' and the logs mean nothing, plenty do work that somehow doesn't go into the books. None of this would be an issue if it came down to royalties, there would be no dispute then, but these studio artists are just that, they got a wage in the same way as the Tea lady did. Nobody would want to see James Jamersons' memory depleted, folks like me discussing him in the early days of the internet, when he was a virtually unknown name are the very reason he got the recognition he deserved and the whole reason why people began writing about his legacy, so no guilt here for making this post here.

So whereas WE would like to know, WE can't always get what we want. None of it whatever the conclusion detracts from the fact that James Jamerson is a big, big player in the world of historical popular music btw. No doubting in this live soundbite though, although Jamerson seems to be concentrating on sight-reading the piece rather than playing from memory, which in itself may or may not be meaningless.

Either way let's just enjoy it, there is precious little video of the great man to enjoy! Thanks all!

 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Thanks for the replies folks. 

So basically there's no new developments then, nothing there that I haven't read already years ago.

Thing for me as a Massive Jamerson fan, is I still don't know exactly what he DID play on. Every time  I/we think we have the facts it turns out that 'Wilton Felder or Bobb Babbitt played that'... Or someone else, these examples continue to emerge.

Fact regarding Carol Kaye is that she irrefutably DID play a hell of a lot of stuff for Motown, it matters little what the tracks actually were, in fact these people probably think it a bit strange that folks are even discussing these questions. As for Carol Kayes' contribution to popular music in those decades, that isn't and cannot be disputed. It far outweighs her contemporaries.

The fans of Jamerson, and be in no doubt, I am one, in a big way, are always gonna be happy to assume that he played on every one. He didn't, not only that but folks are very good at stating what Kaye DIDNT play but are still not conclusive as to what Jamerson DID.

I'd still be very interested in reading any posts that aren't knee-jerk reactions, or about people dropping out of Law-suits etc, I suppose what we Jamerson historians would really like is a definitive list of what the great man actually did play on, that is the point really.

Really the jury is still out, memories fade as people get older, to try to get a definitive account of these matters, is the same as trying to get someone to recall every detail of 'another day at the office' fifty years ago. These people were 'workmen' and the logs mean nothing, plenty do work that somehow doesn't go into the books. None of this would be an issue if it came down to royalties, there would be no dispute then, but these studio artists are just that, they got a wage in the same way as the Tea lady did. Nobody would want to see James Jamersons' memory depleted, folks like me discussing him in the early days of the internet, when he was a virtually unknown name are the very reason he got the recognition he deserved and the whole reason why people began writing about his legacy, so no guilt here for making this post here.

So whereas WE would like to know, WE can't always get what we want. None of it whatever the conclusion detracts from the fact that James Jamerson is a big, big player in the world of historical popular music btw. No doubting in this live soundbite though, although Jamerson seems to be concentrating on sight-reading the piece rather than playing from memory, which in itself may or may not be meaningless.

Either way let's just enjoy it, there is precious little video of the great man to enjoy! Thanks all!

 

It is well known Motown used the wrecking crew at times for West Coast recordings but I doubt CK ever went near Detroit and the Motown Studios?  Whether she played bass when the wrecking crew was used is not clear either is it as she wasn't the only bassist in town?

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, chalky said:

I always believed the Carol Kaye claims were rubbish and the document of David's finally dispels the rubbish.  Interesting read.

Same for me.  Much of what she claimed was too ridiculous.  She's lost her grip on reality in her early old age (a lot sooner than most people do).  Too bad.  A shame that a good artist's work is questioned in the minds of many people by ridiculous claims, just because The Internet reaches so many people.

[David Meikle]

[Guest Spain pete]

So glad that l like many others just enjoy the music ???? but keep on keeping on ?

[Eddie Hubbard]

21 hours ago, David Meikle said:

https://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/magic/kaye/

More detail which should end this fantasy once and for all.

James Jamerson RIP

Reading this excellent in depth article proves beyond doubt that the Carol Kaye claims are ridiculous and should be dismissed as the work of a fantasist .You can't argue with session logs ,and the fact that the Funk Brothers individual contributions are so individual on tracks , and very difficult to copy by other musicians .

[Stateside]

A side issue, I know, but on the "What's Going On" album pull out sleeve notes, it says that tenor Saxophone is played by George Benson. Is that the well known man, or is there another? I know many musicians can play more than one instrument, but I never had him down as a sax session musician. Maybe because this was before he made it big as a solo artist.

It also credits Bob Babbit as well as James Jamerson as a contributing bass player.

 

Kev

[Chalky]

12 minutes ago, stateside said:

A side issue, I know, but on the "What's Going On" album pull out sleeve notes, it says that tenor Saxophone is played by George Benson. Is that the well known man, or is there another? I know many musicians can play more than one instrument, but I never had him down as a sax session musician. Maybe because this was before he made it big as a solo artist.

It also credits Bob Babbit as well as James Jamerson as a contributing bass player.

 

Kev

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but it says Wild Bill Moore played tenor sax, no mention of George Benson.

It also tells you which tracks Bob Babbit and Jameson played bass on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What's_Going_On_(Marvin_Gaye_album)

Not sure how accurate the article is but it does go into the recording of the album in some depth.

[Shinehead]

This guy i would imagine also off Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Benson_(saxophonist

Edited October 30, 2016 by shinehead

[David Meikle]

This is from George's own website.

https://www.georgebensonmusic.com/about.htm

[Stateside]

3 hours ago, chalky said:

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but it says Wild Bill Moore played tenor sax, no mention of George Benson.

It also tells you which tracks Bob Babbit and Jameson played bass on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What's_Going_On_(Marvin_Gaye_album)

Not sure how accurate the article is but it does go into the recording of the album in some depth.

You're right Chalky. The attached image mentions Wild Bill Moore as a soloist.

Kev

[maslar]

On 29/10/2016 at 01:50, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I'm a musician, bass player in fact among other things, anyone wanting to see some credentials can pm me and get directed to my YT, some here already have, I've been doing it now for over 40 years, I've lived in various places but wherever I went I was always the best bass player in town and have never been skint because of it, and that is how you measure this. This isn't about Northern, which is garage music. In terms of bass it's amateurish at best and that's being generous, while I love it, I could get you playing 'I can't get away' or Sandi Sheldon or Sam Dees in an hour session.

 

I've studied Carol Kaye, James Jamerson, Paul MaCartney, Chris Squire, Jaco, Clarke, Jo Osborne, Rutger Gunnarrson, you name 'em, all of it pretty much. Not much I can't do, call my bluff if you want.

 

I've read the content here, and on every forum on the net on this subject.

 

OK so here's the bit where I rip apart one of my all time greatest heroes, James Jamerson. Firstly Jamerson is a legend, a master of the bass, an upright player who, by Berry Gordy's insistance was made to switch to the 'Fender Bass' (guitar) early on, this instrument wasn't even invented till 51. Jamerson was a Jazz player from Carolina, moved to Detroit with his upright and scored a job at Motown. An imposing black guy, he loved to drink, fight, womanise and play bass, a man after my own heart, he did all very well. He went to Motown and later died broken hearted because he was an unkown until players like myself began showing an interest in him on the internet in it's embryonic state early nineties.

 

Make no mistake here, I am a massive fan of the man, when I play a Motown hit onstage I play one finger, the 'Jamerson hook', you can't do it otherwise, you get a ghosted note having to hit a muted string in order to get the rythm going, two fingers you lose it, it doesn't sound like Motown anymore, hard to describe, again ask and you shall be provided. Jamerson was a huge part of the production process in Detroit and never really got the acknowledgement he deserved, isn't that always the way with this type of guy? In the internet age Jamerson became the poster boy for Motown, a tough no-nonsense guy from the ghettoes, hard drinking, hard womanising, jazz playing moonlighter always one step ahead of 'no moonlighting' Berry Gordy, as I said a hero, long live his legacy, a Motown legend, part of the production/writing side and undeniably a face of the black music scene in Detroit, therein lies the rub.

 

As a Bass teacher I taught my lads and lasses that Jamerson was 'the man' only for them to come back and say 'oh I watched this documentary last night and he didn't play on Bernadette it was a white guy', or 'he didn't play 'Darling Dear it was'...'He didn't play 'Reach out'...etc etc. Although appearing in the Marvin Gaye 'What's goin on' live videos, he didn't come on the UK Motown tour, that bass player was some 17 year old kid whose name isn't very much revered at all, I would have to look it up, yes a 17 year old kid could play it and make it sound real.

 

Now I like a good yarn, moreso than the next man, I can give out one or two myself I'm well known for it, and they contain elements of truth, but a good legend is exactly that.

 

I used to think that Bootsy played bass on Cosmic slop, and that Eddie Hazel played the guitar on the live shows and that Pink Floyd actually were involved in playing on their own recordings (Snowy White and Guy Pratt anyone?), that John Entwistle played bass on The Who albums (Macartney no less!) That Ringo, not Alan White from YES played the drums, that Jimi Hendrix played guitar on Electric Ladyland, not a team of four guitarists,

 

So who was this fox in black boots, with the Marilyn Munro hair and Cat-eye sunglasses, with the Fender Bass in the Brian Wilson 'Pet Sounds' vids? Now we get into the real Bass world. Carol Kaye was the go-to player for the likes of Phil Spector, she did everything from The Shangri Las to Frank Sinatra to Elvis Presley to Neil Sedaka, sure she played bass on 'God only knows' and 'Good Vibrations' everyone knows that surely. A consumate professional that could handle anything, believe me if you can make Brian Wilsons' musical halucinations into reality you can handle anything. We aren't talking here about a Carolina pauper who learned to play by twanging the strings of a smashed piano in a derelict church now, we are talking a trained professional.

 

Now I know about the books like 'Standing in the shadows' etc, and while I appreciate a good yarn as I have said, you have to face the reality, Motown as a black ghetto label was never gonna admit to using California session players on it's landmark hits, well ok, why establish an arm in LA then? When they started having huge hits and the money came rolling in it makes sense to upgrade, sure you had to pay Carol Kaye more than Jamerson who would've been on a 'wage' but everyone knows that quality you pay top rate for, and when it comes to hits you get what you pay for. Carol would have had no problem with recreating the Motown sound of Mary wells 'My Guy' 'Baby love' and 'Where did our love go' to believe otherwise is just plain naive. She could also do this without the Whiskey, the confrontation and more importantly in one take!

 

So I have read what well-respected musicologists and archivists have said here about this and while no disrepect is intended they know zip about this, being a good spinner of tunes with a good ear is one thing but it isn't this. Biographers get what they're given and accept what suits their agenda and what doesn't is rejected.

 

A hundred million people worldwide have grooved to Carol Kayes' bass, many have this very night and many more will tomorrow night, she recorded every 'date' (as she called them) and paid union dues accordingly for every one. Jamerson was a face at Motown who came up with many, many landmark bass lines that today are reckoned among the best ever played, you might be listening to a landmark one he came up with, but it doesn't mean you're listening to his 'stick' on the recording though...As if it mattered. Further, as a session player at various intervals, I can state that at times, if a recording has 'hit' written all over it, part of the contract to play on it often has a disclaimer stating 'I will not grass' on it! Sometimes people don't honour that part of it and the facts come out at some point later. Frankie goes to Hollywood's relax by The Blockheads? While it's nice to imagine your favourite group as the musical heroes you have to know that music is a business and is subject to all the rules and subterfuge that any business uses to ensure success. Again it doesn't apply much to Northern soul as it's mostly backing tracks or garage bands although some may be professional backing bands making a small wage in a small local studio.

 

Kiss or Pink Floyd fans might be better off erasing this post from their memory! YES fans can relax.

 

Motown wasn't a "black ghetto label". It was one of the biggest labels in the US. The Supremes alone were the second biggest recording  act in the USA in the 60s, second only to the Beatles. 

There's certainly lots of humour in your post. E.g that Entwhistle didn't play on The Who's albums and that Paul McCartney did? That is what you're saying isn't it?  This alone puts the rest of your deliberations regarding the Jameson/Kaye saga in perspective.

My own view on Kaye's  claims is that she made statements long ago that were probably a genuine mistake and then (like a lot of people) refused to admit she was wrong when it became clear she was and just dug her heels in. A pity really but there you go. There really shouldn't be any need to debate whetherr or not JJ played on the tracks that he most definitely did play on.

 

Edited October 30, 2016 by maslar
typo

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Just now, maslar said:

Motown wasn't a "black ghetto label". It was one of the biggest labels in the US. The Supremes alone were the second biggest recording  act in the USA in the 60s, second only to the Beatles. 

There's certainly lots of humour in your post. E.g that Entwhistle didn't pay on The Who's albums and that Paul McCartney did? That is what you're saying isn't it?  This alone puts the rest of your deliberations regarding the Jameson/Kaye debacle in perspective.

My own view on Kaye's  claims is that she made statements long ago that were probably a genuine mistake and then (like a lot of people) refused to admit she was wrong when it became clear she was and just dug her heels in. A pity really but there you go. There really shouldn't be any need to debate whetherr or not JJ played on the tracks that he most definitely did play on.

 

Hi, I don't believe we've met as yet, regarding the Who comment, you need to do some better research.

Thanks for the Motown info, I really had no idea it was a big label! I was alluding to it's marketing strategy.

Can I ask what you base your 'deliberations' on regarding the Kaye thing that gives you the insight into my perspective? Is it going to amount to anything more substantial than Slutzkys' rantings over the pushing of his book/film and now Musical production franchise? As so far none of the other comments have been. I'll be very happy to get further enlightenment on this subject, surely that is clear.

To quote your good self ''My own view on Kaye's  claims is that she made statements long ago that were probably a genuine mistake and then (like a lot of people) refused to admit she was wrong when it became clear she was and just dug her heels in'' On this point I might add that I think you may very well be absolutely correct!

My agenda here isn't about CK by the way, her standing regarding the musical contribution she has made is irrefutable without even considering any Motown input, it's about what JJ did or didn't do.

I do have further input to contribute but it's taking a minute or two to compile pieces of it into some kind of legible fluid post, coming as it is, from nearly two decades of gathered research.

ps: My reply to you doesn't come with any attached vitriol! Thought I might've detected a soup son in yours' so just thought I'd make that point clear.

Best wishes.

 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Thanks for the Motown info, I really had no idea it was a big label! I was alluding to it's marketing strategy.

 

 

But its marketing strategy was white kids and the pop market, not the black ghettos.  Anything "too" black was canned.  Again we digress 

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

1 minute ago, chalky said:

But its marketing strategy was white kids and the pop market, not the black ghettos.  Anything "too" black was canned.  Again we digress 

Not quite Chalky,  yes its' market  was the white kids but its' marketing strategy was 'Black Ghetto music for cool white kids' no?

[Robbk]

27 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Not quite Chalky,  yes its' market  was the white kids but its' marketing strategy was 'Black Ghetto music for cool white kids' no?

No!  They had multiple marketing strategies.  With Jr. Walker, Shorty Long and Gladys Knight & The Pips towards the Black and "cool White kids", and The Supremes. Marvelettes, Four Tops, Miracles, Temptations, Martha & Vandellas, Marvin Gaye etc.  to ALL audiences.

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

6 minutes ago, RobbK said:

No!  They had multiple marketing strategies.  With Jr. Walker, Shorty Long and Gladys Knight & The Pips towards the Black and "cool White kids", and The Supremes. Marvelettes, Four Tops, Miracles, Temptations, Martha & Vandellas, Marvin Gaye etc.  to ALL audiences.

Hi Robb, hope you are well and nice to hear from you. My response to Chalky was based on him taking the term 'marketing strategy' in the wrong context in relation to how it was delivered. I used the term to describe Motowns' image as being a black music label in terms of the productions, albeit aimed at white audiences and mixed audiences. In it's original context the term was used to illustrate the point that they (the label) might possibly have not wanted to broadcast the fact that a white LA woman had played a part in the picture, not about their sales demographics. Notice how Babbitt was always kept pretty quiet promotionally as opposed to Jamerson who was the poster boy, yes I know there were whites working at Motown but the label wasn't pushed as being white music, surely that much is obvious.

Trouble with internet forums is a post can be dissected, pieces taken out of context, re-quoted and then subjected to pendantry. I always try to avoid that habit.

To put it in different terms regarding my use of the term 'marketing strategy' perhaps you can point out to me where and if Motown promoted any white acts to their mixed audiences? Perhaps that illustrates my use of the term better?

 

[Robbk]

3 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Hi Robb, hope you are well and nice to hear from you. My response to Chalky was based on him taking the term 'marketing strategy' in the wrong context in relation to how it was delivered. I used the term to describe Motowns' image as being a black music label in terms of the productions, albeit aimed at white audiences and mixed audiences. In it's original context the term was used to illustrate the point that they (the label) might possibly have not wanted to broadcast the fact that a white LA woman had played a part in the picture, not about their sales demographics. Notice how Babbitt was always kept pretty quiet promotionally as opposed to Jamerson who was the poster boy, yes I know there were whites working at Motown but the label wasn't pushed as being white music, surely that much is obvious.

Trouble with internet forums is a post can be dissected, pieces taken out of context, re-quoted and then subjected to pendantry. I always try to avoid that habit.

To put it in different terms regarding my use of the term 'marketing strategy' perhaps you can point out to me where and if Motown promoted any white acts to their mixed audiences? Perhaps that illustrates my use of the term better?

 

Having been inside the company, and watching what they tried to sell, and knowing Berry Gordy's taste from the beginning, and his goals, I just can't imagine Motown trying to hide the fact that they had "White" production people working for them.  From Gordy's entry into the music business, he was trying to make music to sell to as many people as possible across as many music genres as possible.  He tried C&W, Garage Band, Surf, Rock-a-Billy, hard Rock, Gospel, Jazz, in addition to Blues, R&B and Soul.  He failed at selling much of any of the genres other than R&B and Soul, because his marketing people didn't have the knowledge of those markets, nor the connections to get them distributed and marketed in the right channels for the potential customers in those markets to even be exposed to the recordings.  He planned to call his record company "Tammy" Records (but the name was already taken).  Clearly, he wanted to make good music in any genre which he could sell records and make a profit.  This was aimed at the widest audience possible.  I think he would avoid at all costs, the image of being an all Black firm.  I don't think he'd have tried to hide the fact that "a White L.A. woman played base on many Motown recordings, any more than he'd used a given Black musician.  He didn't want the names of his musicians known by the general public, because he didn't want them to become stars in their own right, and demand high salaries, and with that, also have the courage to leave his employ, knowing they could command big money because of having a well-known name as a recording artist.

People at Motown, including Berry Gordy, would only have a beef with Carole Kaye because she deliberately worded her comments, ambiguously, to make it sound like she played on hit versions of hit songs; and then when people took the bait and assumed that she did, she kept quiet and allowed people to believe that; and later, when the questions were very specific, she probably didn't come clean, but rather, confronted with documentation proving her wrong, told lies, to avoid appearing to have been dishonest, earlier.  They would have had no problem having her name known as a Motown session player, among all the other players, IF they wanted names of any session players known.

I beg to differ with your attempted point that Jamerson was a "poster boy" and Babbitt received little fanfare from Motown.  During Motown's heyday, NO session musicians were touted, nor received credits on records.  Only band leaders, such as Joe Hunter, Maurice King, Choker Campbell and Earl Van Dyke received billing (at the head of their band names) on posters and venue marquees.  Jamerson never got feature billing until after Motown moved to L.A.  Gordy didn't want ANY of his musicians, "White or Black or Yellow or Red" to be known by the public, lest they demand star's wages or fly the coop.

[The Yank]

 

    It wasn't like Berry Gordy didn't try "to promote white acts to their mixed audiences"- they were doing it from the beginning with

Nick and The Jaguars, Connie Van Dyke, Debbie Dean, Bobby Breen, Tony Martin, Connie Haines, most of the Mel-O-Dy label when

it became Country focused, the Underdogs, The Lewis Sisters, Little Lisa, the Dalton Boys, R. Dean Taylor are just a few. None 

of these acts achieved much success. It was later with Chris Clark and especially  Rare Earth that Motown saw some chart action with their

 white artists. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by the yank

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Hello again Robb, I think after our private conversations that you are well aware that I have a great deal of respect for you, it is a complete anathema to me to fall out with you, or anyone else for that matter here.

However you have here a complete grasp of the wrong end of the stick. My point about Motowns' marketing strategy, in the context in which I used it, you have illustrated perfectly with the following statement plucked from your last post...

Robbk said:

''He tried C&W, Garage Band, Surf, Rock-a-Billy, hard Rock, Gospel, Jazz, in addition to Blues, R&B and Soul.  He failed at selling much of any of the genres other than R&B and Soul, because his marketing people didn't have the knowledge of those markets, nor the connections to get them distributed and marketed in the right channels for the potential customers in those markets to even be exposed to the recordings.''

So he succeeded with the Gospel/Jazz/RnB/Soul then. But his 'marketing strategy' wasn't to promote 'Black music by mostly black musicians, from a black area' (to anybody white or black that might potentially buy it, his 'sales demographic' as opposed to his 'marketing strategy')

Is that better?

Best wishes man!

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

6 minutes ago, the yank said:

 

    It wasn't like Berry Gordy didn't try "to promote white acts to their mixed audiences"- they were doing it from the beginning with

Nick and The Jaguars, Connie Van Dyke, Debbie Dean, Bobby Breen, Tony Martin, Connie Haines, most of the Mel-O-Dy label when

it became Country focused, the Underdogs, The Lewis Sisters, Little Lisa, the Dalton Boys, R. Dean Taylor are just a few. None 

of these acts achieved much success. It was later with Chris Clark and especially  Rare Earth that Motown saw some chart action with their

 white artists. 

Agreed, but as Robb pointed out it didn't work particularly well so he switched marketing strategies.

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

The following post is made up from parts of ongoing research into the career and achievements of legendary Motown Bass player James Jamerson and has been culled from various essays on the subject. It is heavily cut and compressed, the whole is far too unwieldy for a mere post on a forum, what is left has been compiled purely from sources that may be checked online with relative ease and the sources have been referenced where applicable for this purpose. There is no reproduction of material from Wikipedia to muddy the waters with wild inaccuracies. Sources have been kept to a minimum, ie, Motown legend Bob Babbitts' official blurbs and Alan Slutzkys' account of what he has previously called 'the facts'. I have deliberately only used Babbitts' accounts as the entire basis of Slutzkys' facts/evidence as he calls them are culled from Motown peoples' recollections, the accuracy of which may be in some doubt.

 

The post is purely my own interpretation, the quoted material is within quotation marks and referenced whereas my own analysis is without. It is only intended as a view on some possibilities, a post from one internet forum member for the consideration of other members of same forum, one purpose is to promote thought regarding whether Alan Slutzkys essay on the subject quoted earlier in the thread is the last word on the subject of Carol Kayes' claims. Although the post isn't really about Kaye but more about Slutzky/Jamerson. Kayes' claims really aren't a subject to be disussed on a forum dedicated to life-long fans of the Motown music, that has been my mistake, I should have made the thread purely about Jamerson.

 

The 'Kaye/Jamerson claims' discussions continue to run in music colleges and on the internet. Most people who are interested in that discussion are trying to attribute legendary recorded Bass pieces to specific individuals, that is my angle on the subject, not to deplete Jamersons' legacy or, Carol Kayes' for that matter as I hold both in extremely high esteem. The subject comes up so much with music students interested in the instrument and it's history and luminaries that it can't be ignored, most will be wanting to discuss this subject as part of a college dissertation, may of which I have assisted with in over two decades.

 

I reiterate that this isn't about Kaye, it's about Jamersons' work and Slutzkys' 'Facts'.

 

''The Funk Brothers were dismissed in 1972, when Berry Gordy moved the entire Motown label to Los Angeles—a development some of the musicians discovered only from a notice on the studio door. A few members, including Jamerson, followed to the West Coast, but found the environment uncomfortable. For many of the L.A. recordings, members of the Wrecking Crew—the prominent group of session musicians including drummer Earl Palmer, bassist Carol Kaye, guitar virtuoso Tommy Tedesco, and keyboard genius Larry Knechtel—joined the team at Motown''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

So we can more or less rule out anything post 72 then? We know Jamerson didn't fit in there (LA), and was suffering from personal problems from 67 that had an adverse effect on his ability to work. 67-72 Constitutes a five-year period, we can only speculate as to what work he did during this period. This situation got worse when he went to LA. He then subsequently took a job teaching bass to college students, this is the time he stated on his CV 'I did all that Motown shit'.

 

''During the mid- to late-1960s, one-fifth of Motown records began utilizing session musicians based in Los Angeles''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

A good point this, so from as early as mid 60s, 20% of Motown was coming from LA, presumably utilising Carol Kaye as Jo Osborne isn't well known for making claims to Motown sessions, we hear in a later paragraph that Jamerson was struggling to cope back in Detroit since 67...

 

''Detroit, 1967: Bob has received a call from the local record company that exports the city’s second most famous product. Their celebrated house bassist is having personal problems'

 

And...

 

'By 1967 Bob was on a roll, as the word spread amongst Detroit's producers that there was another bassist in town besides Jamerson who could make some magic in the bottom end. The three or four dates a month Babbitt had been happy to get a few years earlier quickly turned into seven or eight long sessions a week''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

So a fair chunk of the work then!

 

Babbitt recalls, "I saw a list of musicians posted on a wall. It had the names of Jamerson and eight other bassists. I said to myself, Man, I'm never gonna work here-but I wound up doing so much work there they had a cot brought in for me''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

As many as eight! This is rather too muddy even for my liking.

 

''By 1970, an increasing number of Motown sessions were in Los Angeles instead of Detroit, notably all the Jackson 5's hit recordings''. (Various official Motown sources)...

 

So what are the implications here for Jamersons' May 25th 1970 masterpiece Jackson 5s' 'Darling dear'? More research is needed here as this one is considered by many the best Bass piece of all time and to even consider that this one might not be Jamerson, after we already acknowledged that 'I want you back' was in fact Wilton Felder, that in itself was a crashing blow whereas the 'Darling dear' thing may well be a step too far!

 

''Nevertheless, Motown producers such as Norman Whitfield, Frank Wilson, Marvin Gaye, and Smokey Robinson steadfastly continued to record in Detroit.'' (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

''Most of the titles described in the previous paragraph were produced by West Coast Motown producer Frank Wilson so we know they didn't come from Detroit''. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

Yes because he (Slutzky) stated that Frank Wilson never recorded in Detroit. Don't forget though after Babbitts' comment above, that when the innacuracies fall in Slutzkys' favour they become 'facts'.

 

''Carol and her lawyer said the contracts, like the notarized affidavits we obtained from various Motown producers, are also forgeries and the contracts are innacurate''. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

''She does have a point about the innacuracy situation though. Motown contractors usually just wrote down some names from their stable of musicians.  A Detroit contractor out of habit might put Jamerson's name over, let's say . . . Bob Babbitt's'' (Alan Slutzky)...

 

So Jamerson may have got the credit for Babbitts' work then? Or somebody elses?

 

So it's OK to quote inaccuracies when they support Slutzkys' position then? But Slutzky said CKs' account was ridiculous fantasy on account of all the innaccuracies? And that the 'facts' must be correct because the people at Motown remember every detail despite their acknowledged innaccuracies, this is what is known as a 'Paradox'?

 

''I had cut the original part, but they decided to redo the tune, James and I divided up the bass part;'' (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

So even when JJ was at the studio he didn't always work alone. There are implications within that statement that reflect on the quality of the work.

 

''In 1972, just as everything seemed to be falling apart with the imminent departure of Motown to the West Coast, Bob got the opportunity to make a once-in-a-lifetime artistic statement on Marvin Gaye's What's Goin' On''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)..

 

A bitter, bitter pill to swallow for Bass players and Jamerson fans the world over.

 

History is a funny thing. Once something is published, whether in magazines, books, or on the internet, it becomes a part of history. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

Unless it doesn't suit ones' business position, then it becomes a fantasy?

 

''As the witnesses to the original events die out, false, revisionist versions of history tend to confuse and even, in some instances, destroy the real facts for future generations. Every time someone argues Carol Kaye's side of the Motown bass legacy, they do everyone a huge disservice as they join these historical revisionists. People, please wake up!!! Debates are over opinions’ not facts''. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

Perhaps the debate should be firstly about what defines a fact eh?

 

While other accounts are dismissed as 'revisionists' fantasies', other self-acknowledged wildly inaccurate accounts can be accepted as fact when it suits a particular position, one that is reliant on the success of a Biographys' sales, a Film franchise and a Musical production franchise. The Biography perhaps would perhaps not be so successful were anyone to call into question the 'facts' contained therein.

 

My own position:

 

Carol Kayes' contribution to the world of popular music is beyond question. We more or less know fully what her contribution has been, as to her claims about Motown cuts, we all know that she did a fair chunk of Motown work albeit in Los Angeles. Given her vast body of work in various musical roles, we are prepared to forgive her for some historical inaccuracies, we may produce evidence, actual hard-copy evidence as to the songs (titles) she laid claim to that perhaps she had got mistaken. We cannot however, state categorically that those credits belong to James Jamerson either. That situation is likely to remain the same for the forseeable future, possibly for perpetuity.

 

The great James Jamerson is and will remain, the late lamented stalwart Bass player of the Detroit arm of the now legendary Motown label. His contribution to the world of music immense and particularly the 'groove' and the trade mark sound of the wonderful recordings made at that plant. Even in his absence, big name players who also played for that company were schooled in playing the Motown sound which undeniably belonged to Jamerson, probably the only instruction the other bass players were ever given went something like 'Whatever you do it has to sound like Jamerson'! The man's stature cannot be eroded, even by those who may seek to do so, which as any lover of the instrument he is associated with will tell you, is beyond the moral scope of Bass players who on the whole are quite a nice, appreciative bunch when it comes to the greats that have gone before.

 

Carol Kayes' account of the Motown hits she played on contains many inaccuracies that may point to her being mistaken as to which records she actually did cut.

 

The Motown luminaries accounts of the records that were cut by James Jamerson contain many inaccuracies that may point to their being mistaken as to which records he actually did cut.

 

Alan Slutzkys' 'facts' regarding the matter were 100% geared to the promotion of his Biography/Film/Musical long since published as irrefutable fact, and have so many holes in them as to not warrant being used in any debate as 'the facts concerning the matter'.

 

Memories fade and tales become embellished, this may be considered acceptable and forgivable when the resultant account suits your agenda, however in Carol Kayes' case it doesn't, isn't, and results in much vitriol and crass memes and the like...

 

All the Bass playing fraternity crave is to be pointed out a record where we can categorically state that 'That's Jamerson playing right there', we tried it with 'Sweetest Feelin' 'Darling Dear' 'Bernadette' 'I want you back'... on the surface it seemed easy all those years ago, only for someone else to pipe up and lay claim to the work, now it's one of the biggest conundrums in the music world.

Edited October 30, 2016 by BabyBoyAndMyLass
Formatting issues

[The Yank]

I think Berry Gordy's sales demographic and marketing strategy were obvious-  The Motown Sound - The Sound of Young America 

[David Meikle]

Since the late Bob Babbitt is now being dragged into this, make up your own mind from this youtube video in which Babbitt inducts James into the Fender Hall Of Fame. Go to 1.00 minutes

 

[maslar]

3 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

The following post is made up from parts of ongoing research into the career and achievements of legendary Motown Bass player James Jamerson and has been culled from various essays on the subject. It is heavily cut and compressed, the whole is far too unwieldy for a mere post on a forum, what is left has been compiled purely from sources that may be checked online with relative ease and the sources have been referenced where applicable for this purpose. There is no reproduction of material from Wikipedia to muddy the waters with wild inaccuracies. Sources have been kept to a minimum, ie, Motown legend Bob Babbitts' official blurbs and Alan Slutzkys' account of what he has previously called 'the facts'. I have deliberately only used Babbitts' accounts as the entire basis of Slutzkys' facts/evidence as he calls them are culled from Motown peoples' recollections, the accuracy of which may be in some doubt.

 

The post is purely my own interpretation, the quoted material is within quotation marks and referenced whereas my own analysis is without. It is only intended as a view on some possibilities, a post from one internet forum member for the consideration of other members of same forum, one purpose is to promote thought regarding whether Alan Slutzkys essay on the subject quoted earlier in the thread is the last word on the subject of Carol Kayes' claims. Although the post isn't really about Kaye but more about Slutzky/Jamerson. Kayes' claims really aren't a subject to be disussed on a forum dedicated to life-long fans of the Motown music, that has been my mistake, I should have made the thread purely about Jamerson.

 

The 'Kaye/Jamerson claims' discussions continue to run in music colleges and on the internet. Most people who are interested in that discussion are trying to attribute legendary recorded Bass pieces to specific individuals, that is my angle on the subject, not to deplete Jamersons' legacy or, Carol Kayes' for that matter as I hold both in extremely high esteem. The subject comes up so much with music students interested in the instrument and it's history and luminaries that it can't be ignored, most will be wanting to discuss this subject as part of a college dissertation, may of which I have assisted with in over two decades.

 

I reiterate that this isn't about Kaye, it's about Jamersons' work and Slutzkys' 'Facts'.

 

''The Funk Brothers were dismissed in 1972, when Berry Gordy moved the entire Motown label to Los Angeles—a development some of the musicians discovered only from a notice on the studio door. A few members, including Jamerson, followed to the West Coast, but found the environment uncomfortable. For many of the L.A. recordings, members of the Wrecking Crew—the prominent group of session musicians including drummer Earl Palmer, bassist Carol Kaye, guitar virtuoso Tommy Tedesco, and keyboard genius Larry Knechtel—joined the team at Motown''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

So we can more or less rule out anything post 72 then? We know Jamerson didn't fit in there (LA), and was suffering from personal problems from 67 that had an adverse effect on his ability to work. 67-72 Constitutes a five-year period, we can only speculate as to what work he did during this period. This situation got worse when he went to LA. He then subsequently took a job teaching bass to college students, this is the time he stated on his CV 'I did all that Motown shit'.

 

''During the mid- to late-1960s, one-fifth of Motown records began utilizing session musicians based in Los Angeles''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

A good point this, so from as early as mid 60s, 20% of Motown was coming from LA, presumably utilising Carol Kaye as Jo Osborne isn't well known for making claims to Motown sessions, we hear in a later paragraph that Jamerson was struggling to cope back in Detroit since 67...

 

''Detroit, 1967: Bob has received a call from the local record company that exports the city’s second most famous product. Their celebrated house bassist is having personal problems'

 

And...

 

'By 1967 Bob was on a roll, as the word spread amongst Detroit's producers that there was another bassist in town besides Jamerson who could make some magic in the bottom end. The three or four dates a month Babbitt had been happy to get a few years earlier quickly turned into seven or eight long sessions a week''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

So a fair chunk of the work then!

 

Babbitt recalls, "I saw a list of musicians posted on a wall. It had the names of Jamerson and eight other bassists. I said to myself, Man, I'm never gonna work here-but I wound up doing so much work there they had a cot brought in for me''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

As many as eight! This is rather too muddy even for my liking.

 

''By 1970, an increasing number of Motown sessions were in Los Angeles instead of Detroit, notably all the Jackson 5's hit recordings''. (Various official Motown sources)...

 

So what are the implications here for Jamersons' May 25th 1970 masterpiece Jackson 5s' 'Darling dear'? More research is needed here as this one is considered by many the best Bass piece of all time and to even consider that this one might not be Jamerson, after we already acknowledged that 'I want you back' was in fact Wilton Felder, that in itself was a crashing blow whereas the 'Darling dear' thing may well be a step too far!

 

''Nevertheless, Motown producers such as Norman Whitfield, Frank Wilson, Marvin Gaye, and Smokey Robinson steadfastly continued to record in Detroit.'' (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

''Most of the titles described in the previous paragraph were produced by West Coast Motown producer Frank Wilson so we know they didn't come from Detroit''. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

Yes because he (Slutzky) stated that Frank Wilson never recorded in Detroit. Don't forget though after Babbitts' comment above, that when the innacuracies fall in Slutzkys' favour they become 'facts'.

 

''Carol and her lawyer said the contracts, like the notarized affidavits we obtained from various Motown producers, are also forgeries and the contracts are innacurate''. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

''She does have a point about the innacuracy situation though. Motown contractors usually just wrote down some names from their stable of musicians.  A Detroit contractor out of habit might put Jamerson's name over, let's say . . . Bob Babbitt's'' (Alan Slutzky)...

 

So Jamerson may have got the credit for Babbitts' work then? Or somebody elses?

 

So it's OK to quote inaccuracies when they support Slutzkys' position then? But Slutzky said CKs' account was ridiculous fantasy on account of all the innaccuracies? And that the 'facts' must be correct because the people at Motown remember every detail despite their acknowledged innaccuracies, this is what is known as a 'Paradox'?

 

''I had cut the original part, but they decided to redo the tune, James and I divided up the bass part;'' (Bob Babbitt dot com)...

 

So even when JJ was at the studio he didn't always work alone. There are implications within that statement that reflect on the quality of the work.

 

''In 1972, just as everything seemed to be falling apart with the imminent departure of Motown to the West Coast, Bob got the opportunity to make a once-in-a-lifetime artistic statement on Marvin Gaye's What's Goin' On''. (Bob Babbitt dot com)..

 

A bitter, bitter pill to swallow for Bass players and Jamerson fans the world over.

 

History is a funny thing. Once something is published, whether in magazines, books, or on the internet, it becomes a part of history. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

Unless it doesn't suit ones' business position, then it becomes a fantasy?

 

''As the witnesses to the original events die out, false, revisionist versions of history tend to confuse and even, in some instances, destroy the real facts for future generations. Every time someone argues Carol Kaye's side of the Motown bass legacy, they do everyone a huge disservice as they join these historical revisionists. People, please wake up!!! Debates are over opinions’ not facts''. (Alan Slutzky)...

 

Perhaps the debate should be firstly about what defines a fact eh?

 

While other accounts are dismissed as 'revisionists' fantasies', other self-acknowledged wildly inaccurate accounts can be accepted as fact when it suits a particular position, one that is reliant on the success of a Biographys' sales, a Film franchise and a Musical production franchise. The Biography perhaps would perhaps not be so successful were anyone to call into question the 'facts' contained therein.

 

My own position:

 

Carol Kayes' contribution to the world of popular music is beyond question. We more or less know fully what her contribution has been, as to her claims about Motown cuts, we all know that she did a fair chunk of Motown work albeit in Los Angeles. Given her vast body of work in various musical roles, we are prepared to forgive her for some historical inaccuracies, we may produce evidence, actual hard-copy evidence as to the songs (titles) she laid claim to that perhaps she had got mistaken. We cannot however, state categorically that those credits belong to James Jamerson either. That situation is likely to remain the same for the forseeable future, possibly for perpetuity.

 

The great James Jamerson is and will remain, the late lamented stalwart Bass player of the Detroit arm of the now legendary Motown label. His contribution to the world of music immense and particularly the 'groove' and the trade mark sound of the wonderful recordings made at that plant. Even in his absence, big name players who also played for that company were schooled in playing the Motown sound which undeniably belonged to Jamerson, probably the only instruction the other bass players were ever given went something like 'Whatever you do it has to sound like Jamerson'! The man's stature cannot be eroded, even by those who may seek to do so, which as any lover of the instrument he is associated with will tell you, is beyond the moral scope of Bass players who on the whole are quite a nice, appreciative bunch when it comes to the greats that have gone before.

 

Carol Kayes' account of the Motown hits she played on contains many inaccuracies that may point to her being mistaken as to which records she actually did cut.

 

The Motown luminaries accounts of the records that were cut by James Jamerson contain many inaccuracies that may point to their being mistaken as to which records he actually did cut.

 

Alan Slutzkys' 'facts' regarding the matter were 100% geared to the promotion of his Biography/Film/Musical long since published as irrefutable fact, and have so many holes in them as to not warrant being used in any debate as 'the facts concerning the matter'.

 

Memories fade and tales become embellished, this may be considered acceptable and forgivable when the resultant account suits your agenda, however in Carol Kayes' case it doesn't, isn't, and results in much vitriol and crass memes and the like...

 

All the Bass playing fraternity crave is to be pointed out a record where we can categorically state that 'That's Jamerson playing right there', we tried it with 'Sweetest Feelin' 'Darling Dear' 'Bernadette' 'I want you back'... on the surface it seemed easy all those years ago, only for someone else to pipe up and lay claim to the work, now it's one of the biggest conundrums in the music world.

Huh? Jamerson played bass on Bernadette. That's that one sorted out.

You seem to be muddying things a little. Lets get back to basics: Jamerson was the main bass player at Motown. You point to a few tracks that have some ambiguity/controversy; e.g. I Want You Back. Did Jamerson ever claim to play on that? His name was put forward by others who obviously didn't know any better.  You then seem to want to use incidents such as this to insinuate an even greater doubt that doesn't (or at least shouldn't)  exist. It's almost as if you're looking for uncertainty when there really isn't any. And if there is some doubt does it really matter when you're dealing with an output of work as large as Jamerson's.  Bob Babbitt claimed they had a disagreement in a bar about who played on Cool Jerk. Both truly believing that they did.  There are always going to be minor discrepancies  such as this. Does it really matter in the greater scheme of things? When so much of what  they did is factually correct. 

You make vague comments about quality control and JJ's "problems" during the period 1967 to 72. But what exactly do you mean?. It's in this period that Jamerson produced many of his greatest lines, his best work. This brings me back to CK again.  One of my favourite Jamerson bass lines is for "I Was Made To  Love Her".  I believe that at some point in time CK has claimed this as one of hers. Without doubt JJ plays on the original Stevie Wonder version. CK plays on the Beach Boys later cover. Listen to the two and compare. They are similar but JJ's is superior (for me anyway) and the difference is clear to hear.  

[Chalky]

From what I have read the bassist on "I Want You Back" was Wilton Felder.

Some info in the link below regarding "I Was Made To Love Her", most of those behind the song claim it was JJ.

 https://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=14131

[Garethx]

edit.

Edited October 31, 2016 by garethx

[Robbk]

On 10/30/2016 at 12:24, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Hello again Robb, I think after our private conversations that you are well aware that I have a great deal of respect for you, it is a complete anathema to me to fall out with you, or anyone else for that matter here.

However you have here a complete grasp of the wrong end of the stick. My point about Motowns' marketing strategy, in the context in which I used it, you have illustrated perfectly with the following statement plucked from your last post...

Robbk said:

''He tried C&W, Garage Band, Surf, Rock-a-Billy, hard Rock, Gospel, Jazz, in addition to Blues, R&B and Soul.  He failed at selling much of any of the genres other than R&B and Soul, because his marketing people didn't have the knowledge of those markets, nor the connections to get them distributed and marketed in the right channels for the potential customers in those markets to even be exposed to the recordings.''

So he succeeded with the Gospel/Jazz/RnB/Soul then. But his 'marketing strategy' wasn't to promote 'Black music by mostly black musicians, from a black area' (to anybody white or black that might potentially buy it, his 'sales demographic' as opposed to his 'marketing strategy')

Is that better?

Best wishes man!

Motown DIDN'T succeed in marketing Gospel, nor Jazz, and had only limited success with 1959-63 R&B.  They were successful in marketing Pop and Soul Music to teens, young adults and middle-aged people in both The Black Community and the general US population, and various "foreign" populations, around The World.  So, are we just differing over semantics?

[Dayo]

Can't say much about this debate but I reckon CK must have played on dozens of NS classics cut in LA.  Dana Valery, anyone?  That's a Wrecking Crew track if I ever I heard one.

[davidwapples]

Still great to hear this just vocals and bass

[Garethx]

4 hours ago, Dayo said:

Can't say much about this debate but I reckon CK must have played on dozens of NS classics cut in LA.  Dana Valery, anyone?  That's a Wrecking Crew track if I ever I heard one.

Dana Valery was recorded in New York. The bass player is probably the record's arranger Charlie Calello.

[Dayo]

20 hours ago, garethx said:

Dana Valery was recorded in New York. The bass player is probably the record's arranger Charlie Calello.

Well that's that theory gone then!  Why did I assume it was LA? What a thundering baseline it is.

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Dayo said:

Well that's that theory gone then!  Why did I assume it was LA? What a thundering baseline it is.

You would have labels like Dore probably using the wrecking crew.  They did use Gold Star studio where Spector did a lot,of his work with the wrecking crew.

[Gointoagogo]

On 1 November 2016 at 12:42, davidwapples said:

Still great to hear this just vocals and bass

Does anyone know if this is this available on CD?

[David Meikle]

If anyone will know it will be baby boy.

[BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Thanks for all the replies on this topic. Some very interesting comments. I have to admit to regretting starting this thread and have purposely ducked out of any potential for argument, it isn't what I'm about, plus I've been rather busy at a killer NS weekender. After appearing to be disrespecting the work of James Jamerson I felt that I could've handled the thread better in the first instance, hence me feeling the need to fully explain my position. Really I shouldn't have opened this can of worms that should've remained in the world of bass enthusiasts rather than soul aficionados.

Suffice to say that I'm a great admirer of the man and have studied his work extensively but sometimes become a bit perturbed by some of the claims made that are only supported by very vague anecdotal evidence. Also I must add that I'm a great admirer of Carol Kaye also despite the fact that she has made claims to things that she can't substantiate, which is a shame given the huge volume of groundbreaking work that she did that can't be put into question.

Regarding JJs' Motown work, it is a shame that Mr Gordy wasn't more respectful of his musicians, at least enough to have accurately documented who did what and when. That situation can't be changed now unfortunately.

Keep on loving the Motown sound is all I can say really, I certainly do, every time I hear a great Tamla or Motown track I always want to believe that I'm listening to Jamerson playing his 62 Fender, rather than one of the other players, which, in itself, may be somewhat unfair!

Before anyone asks, it doesn't have the word 'funk' scratched in the neck pocket, but is a 62 Pre-CBS Fender Precision!

Best wishes all!

 

 

 

[amkaplan]

"Reconstructing the History of Motown Session Musicians: The Carol Kaye/James Jamerson Controversy"

For what it's worth, this is an article from the Journal of the Society for American Music, published online by Cambridge University Press.  The Journal is "an international, peer-reviewed journal...dedicated to supporting scholarship..."  In it, Brian F. Wright, a professor of Music History at the U. of North Texas, presents a scholarly review of the data, exploring new sources, including musicians' union contracts from Motown's LA division, Kaye's recording logs, and a personal interview with Allan Slutsky.

No matter to whichever side of the controversy you fall, I think you will find this a fascinating read.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-the-society-for-american-music/article/reconstructing-the-history-of-motown-session-musicians-the-carol-kayejames-jamerson-controversy/57ACC9F2F2411AF36EB905769E1E53C3

[Simon T]

Very interesting topic.

1959 ~ 1962
Bass - James Jamerson, Clarence Isabell, Johnny Trudell

1963 ~ 1967
Bass - James Jamerson, Tony Newton

1968 ~ 1972
Bass - James Jamerson, Bob Babbit, Eddie Watkins
Motown's West Coast Studio Band.
Bass - James Jamerson (session), Wilson Felder, Carol Kaye, Bill Pitman, Ron Brown

 

There was a website dedicated to JJ Jnr, long since defunct (no pun intended) which I saved. On it it, it attributed 239 Motown songs which the 'Hook' played on. What a great gratitude we should have to ants!

     

I want you back = Wilson

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Simon T

[Owd Codger]

Carole Kaye played ln a lot of Motown seesions, but these were in L.A.

The L.A. session group (  The Wrecking group), recorded cover versions of Detroit sandards and  some ended up on LPs ( Supremes A go go for e.g.)  The L.A. setup also recorded Jobete demos to hawk around music publishing companies. Also, Television shows and studio backing tracks. There were LA tracks issued as Originals such as More Love, Love is here and now you're gone, Forever came today etc.

So the familiar tracks she talks of are covers. All the people, and records from Detroit have stated this. HDH, Ralph Terrana, Bob Ohlson etc.

At best she is confused....her " records" note the songs she performed on but they are NOT the originals.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Owd Codger