Robbk

Ady wrote above that Ace will release a CD including them, next year. I doubt that anyone will press 45s of those cuts.

No problem. I wasn't offended. I know what hyperbole is. I just don't want people to think I'm 85. I'm 68 going on 69 years old. I started collecting records at a very young age.

To be quite frank, there is no way to tell for sure. But. with NO evidence or clues pointing towards rights owner's involvement, it is wisest to assume, until we get more information, that it is a bootleg. If RCA had been involved, it would have been pressed in RCA's regional plant, and would have had an RCA pressing code. It does not.

Just an aside: The credits on The Autographs' "Sad, Sad Feeling" (both on Joker and Loma) are incorrect. The dash between Freeman and King is incorrect. The two writers were Freeman King (who was a songwriter and producer-and later an actor) and Fred Hughes. American '70s and '80s TV and film fans should recognise this face (Freeman King). He produced The Robins on Burn Records, and several Soul releases on Imperial, as well as a few other small indie label releases.

ARP was American Record Pressing Plant in The Detroit Metro Area (Owosso, Michigan). Why should that indicate East Coast to you? The Cincinnati address was probably Herman Lewis/Griffin's, but both his solo and duet, and also Cody Black's cuts on that label all sound like they were recorded in Detroit, with Detroit sound studio acoustics and Detroit session players. And ARP means they were pressed near Detroit. I think they were recorded and mastered in Detroit.

Not bloody likely! Parlor Productions was defunct before 1965. Marton records was defunct by early 1965. IF there was any participation, at all, in 1978, by the former owner of Marton, it was as the individual rights owner, taking his master tape and label art, and having new records pressed up. The orange re-issue is a facsimile, other than by colour, and so, "Parlor Productions" is written on the label, because the new label was taken from the original label art. The fact that "Parlor Productions" is written on the orange records is the so called "source" for that discog entry. Parlor Productions likely had a co-owner with Clinton that financed the operating funds. Clinton's partnership with him, and Marton's owner (IF he was a different person, was likely ended when the partnership dissolved. I'll bet if we were to ask George Clinton if he got any money from the sale of the orange Tamala Lewis pressings, he'd have said, "Huh??? IF the former owner of Marton Records was involved AT ALL, I'd bet Clinton never got his share. What we DID tell you, that you've ignored, is that there is NO RCA pressing code on the Marton records, As stated above, had RCA pressed and market and distributed them such a code would have been in the trailer of those records, as well as printed on the labels, and a reference to RCA's participation would have been described in print on the labels.

I've only been collecting for 61 years, but I've noticed many errors in discogs, and I've helped a lot of the label discographers fill in their holes and correct errors. As stated above, Discogs having an entry is no verification that that given entry can be trusted.

Herman Lewis was also known as Herman Griffin. He was from Cincinnati, and worked many years in Detroit for Motown and Correc-Tone, and as an independent producer there. He was Mary Wells' first husband, and Gigi of The Charmaines was his long-time girlfriend and 2nd wife, and he produced them. He worked mainly in Detroit, and a litle bit in Cincnnati. Herman Griffith was an L.A. DJ, record producer, songwriter and record shop owner. They are two very different people. No. I never met Herman Griffin. Had I met Griffin, I'd probably have chewed off his ear off, chastising him about his advising Mary Wells to quit Motown. But, maybe it's better that I didn't, as he once shot Robert West (with a gun) for trying to interfere with his influence on her. Stone Blue was located in Cincinnati, but i thought most of their recordings were made in Detroit.

I would guess it was either Harriet Hurst or Rhoda Haller (per Bob's info).

Bob, is that a Jobete or Jan Cris song? Do you have the full Joker discography? I just don't know what Joker 717 is. The flip of "We Gotta Go (Where The Action Is)" (718) is its instrumental. From the title, I'm guessing that it's NOT a Jobete song. Do you know who owned Joker. I think KGFJ DJ, Herman Griffith was one of the owners (G & G productions). He was one of the most influential soul DJs of the mid through late '60s in L.A. He owned a record shop on West Blvd. and Adams Blvd. in the wealthiest Black neighbourhood in L.A. (West Adams District). I knew him (used to visit his shop a lot and talk to him). That's a place I got many of my '60s records. Ricardo King sang a couple Jobete songs: "At The Harlem Center" and "Won't You Come Home". they are okay, but nothing special (to my ears). The Soul-Teasers and Connie Clark are very nice. Interesting that Doo Wop producer, John Marascalco, was a writer for Jobete's L.A. office.

I've got the following: Joker 714 - Autographs - "Loves Gonna Do You In"/"On A Hot Summer Day In The Big City"(Instrumental) Joker 715 - Autographs - "Do the Duck"/"Do The Duck"(instrumental) Joker 719 - Autographs - "Sad Sad Feeling"/"Sad Sad Feeling" Could it be that my Joker 719 is a DJ copy, and the 'commercial" pressing had "We Gotta Go" on the "B" side?

Here it is: Isn't she one of the two female members (2 women and 3 men) that were with that same L.A. group when they recorded for Okeh Records from 1966-69? Those male singers in the background must be just the male members of The Autographs. I believe that they became The Visitors on Ray Charles' Tangerine Records in 1970, when Okeh closed its doors.

I'd like to know that as well. I never saw a version of it in The Motown Vaults, but I missed a LOT of good cuts that WERE there, such as "I'm So Thankful" by Barbara Randolph, and "You Hit Me (Right Where It Hurts)" by Kim Weston.

Here it is:

No! They are two VERY DIFFERENT songs. Jackson's was a song that came out of Detroit, written by smokey Robinson, Terry Johnson and Al Cleveland, while Jackson's came out of the L.A. Jobete Music office, written by Hal Davis and Willie Hutch(ison).

The orange issue has ONLY " M-1002-A " on the "A" side, and "M-1002-B" on the "B" side. There's no RCA matrix code. Furthermore both original Martons had, in addition, the cut numbers etched into the deadwax : If I remember correctly, A-109-N and A-110-N for the Roy Handy & The Parlettes, and A-111-N and A-112-N for the Tamala Lewis. I don't remember any stamper logo or "LW". But. I won't be with my Soul 45 records for several more months.

What about "If You Can Stand Me",(Tamala Lewis), I Misjudged You"(Parliaments), "Baby That's A Groove" & Accidental Love"(Roy Handy), "Try Love One More Time"(Sparkels), "I Say Yeah"(Pets), "World Without Sunshine" (Sandra Phillips)"You Turned My Bitter Into Sweet" & "Let Me Know" (Mary Love), "The Day My Heart Stood Still" (Ollie Jackson), "Just Call On Me" & "Toast to The Lady" (Eddie (Frank) Wilson), "Sleepless Nights"(Paris), "It's A Wonderful Night" (Cinderellas), "Love's Gonna Do You In" (Autographs), "Window Shopping On Girls' Avenue"(Vala-Quons), "This Is Our Day" (Dolls), "Is Your Love Going or Growing" (Carl Hall) - any Motown Artists' recorded versions of these songs in The Motown Tape Library? I didn't find them.

Well, his varying colour quality point DID apply to US 1960s offset printers. And that is more or less borne out in the evidence of varying colour even in the same record pressed in the same plant around the same time. From my memory printers for the large labels had several 1000 blank labels on hand at all times (reason for old label designs being used long after new designs were being used in other plants). So, they probably had enough shipped from the record company at a given time, to possibly have colour variation from the beginning to the end of that given batch. If NOT, the colour could certainly vary from batch to batch sent by the record company, as the company, itself, would have orded them from their local printer in much larger batch quantities than the size of the amounts sent to printers used by the individual regional pressing plants.

Good point. But that has another question. What about records out on a tiny label first, then leased to a major label, but the tiny label record is relatively common, but the major label issue is dead rare (such as "Move On Love" by Charles Perry, and "Come Into My Palace" by Lee & The Leopards)?

I looked through my Cadets, and have seen both lighter and darker on records from all 3 major regional pressing plants over time. Also, large companies, like Chess, ordered their blank labels and shipped them to the pressing plants or the printers, themselves. So, the colour would just depend upon which batch of blank labels was sent by Chess to which location.

I took the "RCA involvement quote" to refer to US East Coast RCA pressing plant only, from an order placed by the original owner at the behest of a UK record dealer in conjunction with Marton's owner. RCA would have no other part in the production or distribution of the new record. The poster claiming that there was original Marton owner and RCA involvement needs to clarify what part RCA had in this, and provide a source of that information.

I don't recognise the voice, but the recording sounds like the '70s, and the voice sounds like a young man. So, he probably wasn't a professional singer when I was listening to music, and so, I am likely not to even have heard of him, once his name is identified.

"I had an argument with a DJ who would not play it at a venue,he said it was a boot,i said to him that it wasn't it was a Marton 2nd press original,the DJ that confirmed it's status was at the venue and gave his input,the record still wasn't played,utter nonsense,the dancers missed out yet again!!!." THIS is what the discussion was about, NOT whether or not a "legitimate" 2nd pressing is "original", but whether or not a "legitimate" 2nd pressing issued years later (in this case 12) than the initial sales and airplay run, should be played in a NS club. My question is: Why should a 12-year later re-issue by the original label owner be any more "credible" to play in a NS club, than, say a UK oldies label (i.e. Grapevine) re-issue of 20+ years later?

Those are just different pressing plants. That lighter one seems to be Monarch in L.A. The darker one could perhaps be RCA Midwest (Indianapolis)? The difference in colour of that label design is CERTAINLY not a product of different eras in label design. It's just caused by different pressing plants' printers using different colour for their label paper. Monarch seems to have used a lighter tint on most of their blue cadet runs. Differentiating the pressing plants is easiest to do in lieu of looking at the pressing codes, by looking at the printing fonts.

Surely that's NOT Detroit's Jimmy Scott (who recorded for Giant).