Robbk

I'd bet that Part III is the original.

It looks original to me. There were scads of them still around during the 1980s. It shouldn't be uncommon even by now. I can't imagine anyone having booted it.

With Pavlik (Johnny Powers) as co-writer, I suspect that it WAS written in the late 1960s, while Valvano was still in Detroit. Based on the story of Berry Gordy sending Valvano to Albuquerque in 1972, and mike meeting his future wife, marrying her, and remaining there, it seems that Valvano wanted to record DeLorenzo, and needed material. So he used an old song from the late '60s that he and Powers had written. But the recording must have been made in 1973 in Albuquerque. I don't hear any of the usual Detroit session players or Detroit studios in the record's sound.

Correction, according to Soulful Detroit Mike Valvano died on April 10 2002 of a heart attack.

This was posted a guy called Ralph after being told by Harry Balk (Twirl Records Detroit)

Not 2003 as I previously stated.

Kegsy

Ralph is Ralph Terrana (ex-Motown sound engineer, and owner of Terra Shirma Studio. Harry Balk was also owner of Impact and Inferno Records.

It had a really simple background. I don't hear any Detroit session players in it. But, if it was recorded in Albuquerque in 1973, it should sound more "modern". My guess it was recorded in Albuquerque in 1973, but that Mike tried very hard to make it have the late '60s sound (so no keyboard and not a lot of different tracks). It was published by ASCAP. If it would have been written in 1967, I'd bet it would have been published by a BMI publisher. If Valvano would have recorded that in Detroit in 1967, the BGs would have sounded more like his projects like "My World Is On Fire", and would have been recorded at Terra Shirma or United Sound, with Mike Terry arranging, and recognisable session players heard on it. Instead, it sounds like it was recorded in a garage, with high schoolers playing. The singer's voice is pretty decent. Whether he is of African-American descent, or just Italian, he sounded reasonably soulful. It's a formulaic, and thus, uninteresting song (as songwriting goes), but not all that bad.

been listening to this over the last few months and am convinced the backing singers are the three degrees, listen to their harmonies, anyone know for sure?

Rob h.

Micky Gentile, Jennie Lee Lambert, and most importantly, arranger, George Andrews, worked out of New York. The Three Degrees were from Philadelphia, and lived there, and recorded there early in their careers. I'm not so well versed on the end of the '60s and the '70s as I am on the '50s and early and mid '60s, but I haven't heard of The Three Degrees doing background recording for other artists in NYC. Do you know for a fact that they did so?

I would guess that local New York Area singers were used, as George Andrews worked out of NYC. I do know that Philly is rather close, and many artists commuted back and forth between the two cities. But the BG singers on this song are not so very distinctive that I can pinpoint them as The Three Degrees.

What about the version of 'It Rained 40 Days & Nights' by Little Jimmy Scott on Giant? I always assumed that was a Detroit recording regardless of the Chicago address on the label. Mike Terry on production credits.

Yes, that was definitely recorded in Detroit (according to Ron Murphy). Jimmy Scott was a Detroiter, and most (but not all) of Mike Terry's work for Jo Armstead was done in Detroit (although many of Bobby Hutton's and Jo Armstead's recordings were made in Chicago).

Interesting to see that Gamma record jacket. I don't believe that is from Jo Armstead's Gamma Records (but, rather a "foreign" Gamma label (Discos Gamma?). All the stock copies I've ever seen were that same blue-green (loosely turquoise) colour (including my own copy). I've never seen the white DJ in circulation (only a scan). I've seen both the Shelley Fisher and "Fisher" credit pressing on blue-green store stock.

I hate to muddy the water on the Detroit/ Chicago debate but in an interview with Jo Armstead

she specifically mentions all the Garland Green tracks being cut in Detroit (Soul Survivor # 5) .

Also, in the liner notes to "The Very Best Of Garland Green" on Kent, the tracks "Girl I Love You"

and "It Rained...." are also named as Detroit tracks.

I heard, years ago, that the tracks for both sides were recorded in Detroit, but Green's vocals were recorded in Chicago. I've also heard that the track for "It Rained 40 Days and Nights" was recorded in Detroit, while "Girl, I Love You" was recorded in Chicago.

Although it's Armstead & Terry produced, it was done in Chicago according to Mike Terry.

quote below from the interview with Mike Terry on my site:

"MT: That really sticks out in my mind, J J Barnes 'Baby Please Come Home', I like that song, Garland Green 'Jealous Kinda Fella', stuff I did with him in Chicago, when I was working with Josie Armstead, Great great sounds over there, and I remember that very strong because I was at a turning point. The Little Foxes ‘cause that’s when I first started writing for strings and I remember that because I couldn’t hear strings at first. Till somebody told me where they were at, then all of a sudden I heard it, you know. They would be some of the ones that stick out in my mind"

The whole interview is here https://www.soulfulki....net/inter2.htm

Yes. Mike Terry produced some of Jo Armstead's sessions in Detroit, as well as some in Chicago. He worked for others in Chicago, as well (Bridges, Knight & Eaton). Of course, he also worked in Detroit for the latter, as well.

I probably looked through over a few million 45s in my time, and I never saw a Justin record on Musicor or Dynamo. I've seen many copies of the store-stock green Down East.

Port was owned by Jerry Blaine's son (thus the re-issues of the Whirlin' Disc label output).

There is a current JMC Records, which is a Reggae label. I'm sure there's no connection to the Detroit '70s/'80s label.

Hi Robb

Yes, I see those Smoke Screen records are '80s.

Must have been some more releases for it to last so long.

Cheers

Richard

That isn't always the case, as sometimes labels shut down for some years and then re-activate years later. Joe Von Battle did that with his JVB Records, King Records did that with their Queen Records label, Ernest Kelly did that with his Geneva Records.

Cheers Robb

Surely it was 70s though - or maybe it went on for a long time (started '70s and ended '80s)?

Wouldn't the Four Sonics have been early/mid-70s?

Also I have a record on the label with a Detroit address and mid-70s date I think. I can check it.

Cheers

Richard

The Four Sonics' was early '70s, as I bought mine then. I wasn't buying any records in the '80s:

If you mean the 1970's-80s label, here is a discography I found:

JMC 140 Darnell Jackson & Band Love, Peace and Happiness/I 1973?

JMC 141 Four Sonics, The If It Wasn't For My Baby (7") 1973?

JMC 111 Smoke Screen (3) I'm So Inspired / Give It Up mid 1970's ?

JMC 113 Mack & Nina Reunited/I Mid 1970's ?

JMC 113 Mack Brown Mystery Mistress (7") 1987 (re-issue?)

JMC 194 Smoke Screen (3) Give It Up (12") 1984 (re-issue?)

JMC 194-A Smoke Screen Give It Up (12", Max) 1984 (re-issue?)

Just to muddy the waters yet further, the "real" Oma Page (Billy's wife) did cut some demos for Motown - the original version of Carolyn Crawford's "When Somebody's Good To You" was hers (not the Oma Drake/Heard from the Sa-Shays, the Sweethearts, the Utmosts, the Postalettes and the Darlings, the one who was miscredited as "Oma Page" for those Marvin Gaye duets) - a fact which has been buried by overzealous correction of the original mistake. What a mess...!

Another Motown coincidence, almost, but not quite as unlikely, as two different Frank Wilsons writing songs and recording for Motown during nearly the same time. No wonder the record keepers were confused. Two Omas working for the same American company at the same time. Who'd believe it? I'm Dutch and American (and Canadian), and I've never heard of two women in their twenties having Oma for an official first name.

and in Germany , I believe , well at least that's what I used to call my grandparents.

Swifty

Yes, at least in the northern and northwestern parts of Germany, where they speak Plattdeutsch, Angelsk, and Friesian. But, I find it funny that people would name their little infant baby girl "Grandma". Maybe a few young girls might get the nickname, "kleine Oma", or Little Grandma. But, I find it hard to believe that a parent would name a female infant, "Grandma". I'm Dutch, and I've never heard of a woman in her twenties using the first name of Oma (maybe a nickname for a young girl who acts like a grandmother-but not a "given, Christian name).

I got that vinyl "Humphry Stomp" in Chicagoland. So, I suspect that it was pressed in The Midwest. We had a lot of our Scepter-Wand issues on vinyl. It bears the normal Scepter-Wand press number: 50620 and 50621, but, it also has 240 on the A side, and 243 on the B side ("Can You Forgive Me). Could those small numbers be the actual pressing plant job numbers? They seem much too small to be pressing job numbers (perhaps just a pressing code number?).

I DID see a yellow label on Garrison-my "Humphry Stomp".

It doesn't say "Disc Jockey issue" or "Not For Sale", but it DOES have stars on the implied "Hit Side". So, despite having the yellow label, was that a DJ issue or a store stock?

Oma Heard (Oma Drake) was from L.A., and had been originally a background singer for Hal Davis's and Marc Gordon's L.A. Jobete Music office for recording demos as guides for Motown's Detroit artists, and for recording Jobete Music song ownership acetates. She was erroneously "assumed" to be arranger Billy Page's wife (and, thus "given" the name Page. She was being confused with Billy's wife, who also had the unusual first name. Oma. She had a couple of singles released as a single artist on small L.A. labels, and was also in an L.A. Girls group (I forget the group's name), and was also a member of Dorothy (Berry), Oma and Zelpha on Chisa Records (distributed by Motown-but not really connected with Motown production).

I've never seen anything but the DJ copies. I can't remember seeing a Garrison stock record of ANY of their issues. I've seen about 5-6 different records on the label, and they were ALL white DJs. I have some faint memory of seeing an actual store stocker of one of them (NOT The Honeybees). It was solid yellow. Is that right, or was it just a dream?

Apparently, Flomar got a piece of the publishing as pay for Scepter-Wand's distributing of the Garrison record. Wasn't Johnny Terry the conduit that connected all those Detroit productions to New York labels for release? That's the way I understood that situation. Terry was listed as the producer or co-producer on the Empire, Velvet Sound, Garrison, Barracuda and Jack Montgomery Scepter and Revue records. I read quotes from some of the artists saying that Johnny Terry didn't REALLY "produce" (didn't run recording sessions), he was just the conduit through which Detroit productions by Don Mancha and Bob Hamilton, and one or two others got released on New York labels. Mancha had probably met Terry in New York, when he worked there during the early Mid '60s (Drum Records release, etc.). Does anyone know if there was really a Don Montgomery? Maybe "Don Montgomery" stands for a partnership between Don Mancha and Jack Montgomery (Marvin Jones)? Both of them were the major writers for Travler Music.

I have his Expo record. I also seem to remember seeing a Bobby Jones record on one of The CJ-distributed labels (Capri?). He also had a release on USA Records -"Check Me Out"/"Beware A Stranger". And didn't he have another record on which he was backed by The Paramonts on another CJ-distributed label (Olé)?

I am glad I didn't go, otherwise I would be a friggin old fart

Nothing wrong with getting old. It sure beats the alternative. What COULD be lousy about getting old, would be being old and still being an ignorant fool (as, sad to say, happens to more than a few of us humans).

The only thing artists did get paid for WAS session work. They didn't get paid for their recording (someone kept the money along the chain, claiming an advance wasn't recouped). The Andantes weren't songwriters. Everyone I talked to *loved* to do session work because they got paid and they got paid right there.

That's very true. Nevertheless, I don't see Mancha or Bridges/Knight/Eaton using The Andantes great talent for such a great opportunity to make a hit, and then just leasing it to a miniscule New York label. The potential record sales revenues are split among them, and Garris AND Scepter-Wand (for distribution), and IF decent sales DO materialise, there is no group to sing in clubs, go on tour, etc. I just don't believe that was what happened. Maybe it would have been smart to have The Andantes record really well-made recordings with The Funk Brothers, and then use another ensemble of good non-Motown Detroit singers as the group that has interface with the public (Adorables or Debonairs or..... etc.). But I don't think that's what happened in this case. I think I've heard this Honey Bees' lead singer's voice before, but I don't recognise it as one of The Andantes.