Hi everyone,

I've been listening to quite a bit out of the Ric-Tic catalog, which has had me wondering...

I realize Motown purchased the label, so there's no murky ownership issues like there are with some labels. I would think with Motown being as popular as it is at present that Universal Motown would be all over a release, or is there not enough interest?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks!

Tim

Put me down for a set to start with!

Put me down for a set to start with!

In respect of a possible release / releases , the chap to prod with a stick over this , due to his involvement with the " Celler Full Of Motown " series , is Richard Searling ......

Malc Burton

I realize Motown purchased the label, so there's no murky ownership issues like there are with some labels.

Unfortunately there ARE 'murky ownership issues'. When he purchased Golden World, Berry Gordy was really only interested in buying the studios, not the labels and/or the contracts of most of the artists. A lot of the paperwork and masters seem to have vanished into the ether in the intervening 40 years, and were possibly not even moved to Motown in the first place.

Record companies are extremely wary of putting out material that they do not have sufficient paperwork to support their ownership of. Which is why the bootleggers have had a field day with Ric Tic, and why people like Richard and Jo Wallace, who have both had generous access to the Motown catalogue in the 21st century, have never touched it.

It should really go without saying that, if they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they own the repertoire, Universal would have had at least one volume of "The Ric Tic Story" on the market, many years ago.

Unfortunately there ARE 'murky ownership issues'. When he purchased Golden World, Berry Gordy was really only interested in buying the studios, not the labels and/or the contracts of most of the artists. A lot of the paperwork and masters seem to have vanished into the ether in the intervening 40 years, and were possibly not even moved to Motown in the first place.

Record companies are extremely wary of putting out material that they do not have sufficient paperwork to support their ownership of. Which is why the bootleggers have had a field day with Ric Tic, and why people like Richard and Jo Wallace, who have both had generous access to the Motown catalogue in the 21st century, have never touched it.

It should really go without saying that, if they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they own the repertoire, Universal would have had at least one volume of "The Ric Tic Story" on the market, many years ago.

I did read somewhere that BG purchased Ric-Tic etc to get their top artists so what you say above Tony is news to me. Saying that I think your research on the subject is more likely to be correct.

BG definitely really only wanted the studios. As Motown itself had gotten bigger, the 'session traffic' through Hitsville (Studio A, as it became) had increased to a point where, even working around the clock, there were not enough hours in the day to record all the artists or to schedule overdub sessions for strings and additional vocals etc.

He purchased GW (Studio B, as it became!) so that rhythm tracks, overdubs etc could be created there, freeing up time at Studio A.

He didn't really need any of Ric Tic's talent roster, as he had plenty of underexposed artists at Motown already. The only "Top Artists" he kept were Edwin Starr and the Fantastic Four (OK, J J Barnes, too, but J J didn't get one single track released while a Motown artist) and, let's face it, Motown didn't excatly push the boat out for either act.

BG definitely really only wanted the studios. As Motown itself had gotten bigger, the 'session traffic' through Hitsville (Studio A, as it became) had increased to a point where, even working around the clock, there were not enough hours in the day to record all the artists or to schedule overdub sessions for strings and additional vocals etc.

He purchased GW (Studio B, as it became!) so that rhythm tracks, overdubs etc could be created there, freeing up time at Studio A.

He didn't really need any of Ric Tic's talent roster, as he had plenty of underexposed artists at Motown already. The only "Top Artists" he kept were Edwin Starr and the Fantastic Four (OK, J J Barnes, too, but J J didn't get one single track released while a Motown artist) and, let's face it, Motown didn't excatly push the boat out for either act.

Did BG also buy them out to kill the opposition? With the money he spent on the buy-outs surely he could have converted another garage/basement close to 2648 WGB.

Did BG also buy them out to kill the opposition? With the money he spent on the buy-outs surely he could have converted another garage/basement close to 2648 WGB.

There was probably an element of that, of course.

But GW was already up and running as a studio, and - however much he disapproved of their 'clandestine activity' - he knew that most of the Funk Brothers already did sessions there, and were thus familiar with the way it worked. Rather than spending money on building something from scratch that might have given the Motown Sound a whole new dynamic, BG probably wanted something fully functioning, and with a sound that he knew was compatible with the one that was already being created at 2648.

Better the devil you know, and all that!

Unfortunately there ARE 'murky ownership issues'. When he purchased Golden World, Berry Gordy was really only interested in buying the studios, not the labels and/or the contracts of most of the artists. A lot of the paperwork and masters seem to have vanished into the ether in the intervening 40 years, and were possibly not even moved to Motown in the first place.

I take it ownership of some tracks would have reverted to the producer anyway?

There was probably an element of that, of course.

But GW was already up and running as a studio, and - however much he disapproved of their 'clandestine activity' - he knew that most of the Funk Brothers already did sessions there, and were thus familiar with the way it worked. Rather than spending money on building something from scratch that might have given the Motown Sound a whole new dynamic, BG probably wanted something fully functioning, and with a sound that he knew was compatible with the one that was already being created at 2648.

Better the devil you know, and all that!

About 20 years ago I interviewed Casablanca, the legendary promotion man for Golden World/Ric-Tic, at his home in Detroit,

He said Motown put lots of pressure on radio stations and distributors not to support GW,Ric Tic.

He vividly recalled Motown buying the company, and said one reason was definitely to take out the opposition label.Ed Wingate being in the numbers name was well connected and had loads of money and was not intimidated by pressure from Motown.

Acquiring the Golden World studio would have been an asset for Moown though - Sidney Barnes says that when George Clinton got him to Detroit to set up Geo-Si-Mik Productions alongside Mike Terry, Golden World was a much better studio than anything Motown had.

Don't think it would have compared to Don Davis's United Sounds though, went to the downstairs studio there and it was awesome.

Neil

I take it ownership of some tracks would have reverted to the producer anyway?

No, Jerry, I don't think so. Motown definitely bought all physical assets of Golden World, and I'm pretty sure that all of that company's producers were salaried employees, so there would have been no question of taking their productions with them when they went.

For the record (no pun intended), I believe that the only labels that Motown acquired in the purchase were Ric Tic, Golden World and Wingate.

Found Neil's comments in the above post v. interesting, BTW!

No, Jerry, I don't think so. Motown definitely bought all physical assets of Golden World, and I'm pretty sure that all of that company's producers were salaried employees, so there would have been no question of taking their productions with them when they went.

For the record (no pun intended), I believe that the only labels that Motown acquired in the purchase were Ric Tic, Golden World and Wingate.

Found Neil's comments in the above post v. interesting, BTW!

Me too, thanks for clearing that up!

In respect of a possible release / releases , the chap to prod with a stick over this , due to his involvement with the " Celler Full Of Motown " series , is Richard Searling ......

Malc Burton

Malc, the 'Cellarful of Motown' series was Paul Nixon, Richard Searling was Tamla Motown Conns. and I was Soul Satisfaction Vols 2-5....Jo x

Just a few random thoughts on this topic - There was a very fuzzy period in the mid 60s to about 1970 when Polydor held the rights to various Wingate related masters e.g. Edwin Starr & J J Barnes from Ric Tic. Holidays from Golden World. Then on their subsidiary, Track - Debonaires from Solid Hit. Al Kent from Ric Tic, Parliaments from Revilot and Precisions from Drew. Several of these also came out as tracks on Polydor compilations such as `Headline News` in '66. Mid way through this period Gordy would have inherited the rights to this lot when he went through his two buy-out deals with Wingate. There was therefore the odd situation of Polydor issuing the same stuff as EMI on Tamla Motown at the same time e.g. Edwin Starr's `Soul Master` LP contained `Agent 00 Soul`, `SOS` and `Headline News` in 1968, the same year as the Fantasic 4 LP on Tamla Motown. The Supremes also sang `I Can't Shake it Loose` on their UK `Love Child` LP in the same year but this might simply be a bought in track, seperate to any buy-outs.

I also heard that due to Gordy's lack of interest in the Ric Tic name that Wingate re-registered it in Illinois but I suspect this is gossip as I can't see any significance in which state the company was registereded in.

I also understand that following Martin Koppel's mass buying of Ric Tic related material (I'm talking about several thousand here) and the retail success of the Ric Tic Relics LP and various Ric Tic reissued 45s on UK Tamla Motown, Ed Wingate considered re-launching it in the early 70s, even engaging `Sweet` James Epps to record a session.

John Lester from London may well know the current status of who owns what as he's done quite a bit of work for Harry Weinger at Universal in NYC.

Is the Ric Tic relics LP available on CD?

Keith Rylatt

Unfortunately there ARE 'murky ownership issues'. When he purchased Golden World, Berry Gordy was really only interested in buying the studios, not the labels and/or the contracts of most of the artists. A lot of the paperwork and masters seem to have vanished into the ether in the intervening 40 years, and were possibly not even moved to Motown in the first place.

Record companies are extremely wary of putting out material that they do not have sufficient paperwork to support their ownership of. Which is why the bootleggers have had a field day with Ric Tic, and why people like Richard and Jo Wallace, who have both had generous access to the Motown catalogue in the 21st century, have never touched it.

It should really go without saying that, if they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they own the repertoire, Universal would have had at least one volume of "The Ric Tic Story" on the market, many years ago.

All of the above correct As Tony well knows, it's about being able to produce that vital piece of paperwork - THE CONTRACT. Without that, NOTHING and I mean NOTHING will get released because without the contract, any monies owed cannot be channelled to the correct parties. Same goes for Golden World....there are too many missing gaps in both the masters and licenses. People weren't as 'archive' minded back then....trust me, I am an archivist LOL. Jo x

Just a few random thoughts on this topic - There was a very fuzzy period in the mid 60s to about 1970 when Polydor held the rights to various Wingate related masters e.g. Edwin Starr & J J Barnes from Ric Tic. Holidays from Golden World. Then on their subsidiary, Track - Debonaires from Solid Hit. Al Kent from Ric Tic, Parliaments from Revilot and Precisions from Drew. Several of these also came out as tracks on Polydor compilations such as `Headline News` in '66. Mid way through this period Gordy would have inherited the rights to this lot when he went through his two buy-out deals with Wingate. There was therefore the odd situation of Polydor issuing the same stuff as EMI on Tamla Motown at the same time e.g. Edwin Starr's `Soul Master` LP contained `Agent 00 Soul`, `SOS` and `Headline News` in 1968, the same year as the Fantasic 4 LP on Tamla Motown. The Supremes also sang `I Can't Shake it Loose` on their UK `Love Child` LP in the same year but this might simply be a bought in track, seperate to any buy-outs.

I also heard that due to Gordy's lack of interest in the Ric Tic name that Wingate re-registered it in Illinois but I suspect this is gossip as I can't see any significance in which state the company was registereded in.

I also understand that following Martin Koppel's mass buying of Ric Tic related material (I'm talking about several thousand here) and the retail success of the Ric Tic Relics LP and various Ric Tic reissued 45s on UK Tamla Motown, Ed Wingate considered re-launching it in the early 70s, even engaging `Sweet` James Epps to record a session.

John Lester from London may well know the current status of who owns what as he's done quite a bit of work for Harry Weinger at Universal in NYC.

Is the Ric Tic relics LP available on CD?

Keith Rylatt

Keith, there is nothing in the Polydor Archives or the Universal UK Paper Archives with any information on any of the above. Any paperwork to do with Motown/etc was given 'extra special' attention by me when dealing with the archive. If there is anything, it will be with the Legal Depts in the States....I've dealt a lot with Harry in the past and he's been an enormous help on various projects. Jo x

Hi Jo

Thanks for these confirmations. I wonder what happened back in the early 70s then when EMI put out all of that Ric Tic stuff?

Do you recall the number of 25 count boxes of Al Kent's `You've Got to Pay the Price`that we had at Bogart's around 1980?? If I remember, we had to struggle to sell them for £1@.

Cheers

Keith

Just a few random thoughts on this topic - There was a very fuzzy period in the mid 60s to about 1970 when Polydor held the rights to various Wingate related masters e.g. Edwin Starr & J J Barnes from Ric Tic. Holidays from Golden World. Then on their subsidiary, Track - Debonaires from Solid Hit. Al Kent from Ric Tic, Parliaments from Revilot and Precisions from Drew. Several of these also came out as tracks on Polydor compilations such as `Headline News` in '66. Mid way through this period Gordy would have inherited the rights to this lot when he went through his two buy-out deals with Wingate. There was therefore the odd situation of Polydor issuing the same stuff as EMI on Tamla Motown at the same time e.g. Edwin Starr's `Soul Master` LP contained `Agent 00 Soul`, `SOS` and `Headline News` in 1968, the same year as the Fantasic 4 LP on Tamla Motown. The Supremes also sang `I Can't Shake it Loose` on their UK `Love Child` LP in the same year but this might simply be a bought in track, seperate to any buy-outs.

Hi Keith,

The Polydor and Track deals were done separately, to the best of my knowledge. Track was not really a subsidiary of Polydor, it was merely distributed by Polydor - although it was eventually absorbed into Polydor in the mid 70s. I remember reading a piece in Record Mirror, just before "Testify" came out on Track for the first time, where Kit Lambert said that he'd done a deal with LeBaron Taylor for Revilot and a few other Detroit labels.

I don't know how Ric Tic and Golden World (or Drew!) ended up with Track - perhaps Polydor's deal had not expired at that point, and they simply farmed it out to Kit Lambert. This would also explain how they were able to reissue the Edwin Starr tracks on Polydor itself, after Motown had bought GW, on a (presumably) still valid license.

As is the case with virtually all US 45s that came out on Polydor or Polydor distributed labels, all of the Track 45s are dubbed from disc.

The Supremes' backing track for "Cant Shake It Loose" is, BTW, different to Pat Lewis', so there's no connection there apart from the fact that it's a GW era song.

Oh yes, and the 70s Tamla Motown issues of Ric Tic material (including "Ric Tic Relics") are all dubbed from disc, apart from the San Remo Golden Strings tracks. That's information I got from one who was working there at the time

Edited July 30, 200915 yr by TONY ROUNCE

Hi Keith,

The Polydor and Track deals were done separately, to the best of my knowledge. Track was not really a subsidiary of Polydor, it was merely distributed by Polydor - although it was eventually absorbed into Polydor in the mid 70s. I remember reading a piece in Record Mirror, just before "Testify" came out on Track for the first time, where Kit Lambert said that he'd done a deal with LeBaron Taylor for Revilot and a few other Detroit labels.

I don't know how Ric Tic and Golden World (or Drew!) ended up with Track - perhaps Polydor's deal had not expired at that point, and they simply farmed it out to Kit Lambert. This would also explain how they were able to reissue the Edwin Starr tracks on Polydor itself, after Motown had bought GW, on a (presumably) still valid license.

As is the case with virtually all US 45s that came out on Polydor or Polydor distributed labels, all of the Track 45s are dubbed from disc.

The Supremes' backing track for "Cant Shake It Loose" is, BTW, different to Pat Lewis', so there's no connection there apart from the fact that it's a GW era song.

Oh yes, and the 70s Tamla Motown issues of Ric Tic material (including "Ric Tic Relics") are all dubbed from disc, apart from the San Remo Golden Strings tracks. That's information I got from one who was working there at the time

I also read that Gordy brought Ed Wingates Myto publishing company, and the reason we didn't see any published on future Ric-Tic's after the first buy out. So a strong possibility that they do own the existing masters?

Martyn

Malc, the 'Cellarful of Motown' series was Paul Nixon, Richard Searling was Tamla Motown Conns. and I was Soul Satisfaction Vols 2-5....Jo x

My red faced apologies Jo : I recalled afterwards it was Paul : my defence is / was a very senile moment at the time of typing .

I am now stood in the corner ......

Malc Burton

I also read that Gordy brought Ed Wingates Myto publishing company, and the reason we didn't see any published on future Ric-Tic's after the first buy out. So a strong possibility that they do own the existing masters?

Martyn

From Gordy's book : "I also acquired later Golden World and Ric-Tic Records owned by Eddie Wingate and Joanne Jackson... She and her company had become our biggest local competitor. Despite the rivalry of our companies we were friends and when she decided to get into a different business, she sold her record and publishing companies to me." Why doesn't he mention Ed Wingate in the deal ?

My red faced apologies Jo : I recalled afterwards it was Paul : my defence is / was a very senile moment at the time of typing .

I am now stood in the corner ......

Malc Burton

You can come out of the naughty corner now, Malc.... xx

I'm publishing a book in October and interview with Casblanca is in there.

He tells great stories of the scams they had to do to get Ric-Tic and Golden Word records played on the Radio stations.

He also recalled how after Motown bought the company, tens of thousands of singles were dumped to be used as ballast in Highway construction sites all over Detroit!

He had 1,000's of Ric-Tic singles which he had kept in his garage,Guy Hennigan and Chris King had been there before me, and I still bought maybe 5,000 from him.

Popcorn Wylie took me to meet Casablanca and listening to the 2 of them talking about the old days was priceless.

Casablanca said they used to work closely with some of the Philly labels, I guess they worked each other's records in cities they did not have any clout in with the Radio guys, and sold me 2 copies of the Arctic promo only album with Deroit and Philly stuff on. Guy had missed these when he was at Casablnca's but instantly bought my spare copy when I got back to the UK. Casablanca gave me one of his business cards from the 60's, was a plastic see though kind of thing in blue Ric-Tic style, I cannot find it but am hoping it will turn up to go in the Book.