Ive just red an article where someone claims that Dorothy Pierce who wrote the Seminols -I cant stand it along with Orthea Barnes on mickeys and several other recordings,was infact a cover name for Holland Dozier Holland who were moonlighting and that Dorothy Pierce was actualy Brian Hollands mother inlaw. Has anybody else heard this? Chris. 

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According to the book "Come And Get These Memories", Brian's wife Sharon did have a mother named Dorothy Pierce.   But... I can't confirm that name was used by H/D/H to work outside of Motown. 

Edited May 19, 20214 yr by The Yank

38 minutes ago, The Yank said:

According to the book "Come And Get These Memories", Brian's wife Sharon did have a mother named Dorothy.   But... I can't confirm that name was used by H/D/H to work outside of Motown. 

Thanks for the reply,i wonder if RobbK would know as this is always his forte.

20 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Thanks for the reply,i wonder if RobbK would know as this is always his forte.

I have heard for a long time, that "Dorothy Pierce", Brian Holland's mother-in-law's name, was used by H-D-H to hide the fact that they were moonlighting at Hi-Lite/REM/Pillar Records.  Sal Prado, one of the 2 lead singers of Hi-Lite's Seminoles, among others, told me that.  It was surprising to me, given that most of the singers on those labels were Caucasians, and, the parent label, Hi-Lite had NO African-American artists, and whose main producer (other than, perhaps (whoever "Dorothy" was), was C&W producer/songwriter, Pat Meehan, who produced and managed Rock-a-Billy singer, Johnny Powers, and may also have been a part owner of that label.  Motowners, Joe Hunter and Dale Warren worked for these labels(as songwriters and arrangers).  But they didn't have exclusive contracts with Motown, like HDH were given in early 1962, to keep them from leaving to join Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records.  Dorothy Pierce's name started appearing on Hi-Lite's records' labels in mid 1962. 

I assume that the Motown connection with Hi-Lite was either Johnny Powers, as his manager seemed to be A&R man with Hi-Lite, or Motown's band leader, Joe Hunter, who was already working with them (and may have met Meehan through Powers).  Come to think of it, "Dorothy Pierce" also wrote a couple songs for Joe Hunter's and Freddy Brown's Mickay's Records' Orthea Barnes release, with publishing shared by Brown & Hunter's BroHun Music and "Dorothy's" Vijay(AKA Vigay)Music.  So, it ts very possible that Hunter, who NEVER wanted to sign any exclusive contract with Motown because he always had wanted to continue taking other gigs from his old pre-Motown clients as well as new ones, and to operate his own production company with Freddy Brown, was tipped off, in spring, 1962, by Motowner, Johnny Powers, that his manager, Pat Meehan at Hi-Lite, was looking for songwriters,arrangers and musicians to work for his label.  Then Hunter, knowing that Dale Warren was looking for outside work, brought him in.  Soon after, when he heard that The Holland Brothers, who had agreed to leave Motown for Wilbur Golden's Correc-Tone Records because they wanted more money than Berry was paying, but were convinced by Berry to stay, brought them to his own Mickay's Records for a little extra money for them, and soon after, brought them to Meehan's Hi-Lite/REM Records.

Hi-Lite Records had The Seminoles (Sal Prado's group), The Elites (Caucasian Pop Girls group-whose lead singer, Patti Gilson, sang on a Motownish 2-sided record on Ed Wingate's Golden World Records), Tommy Frontera, who was a Doo-Wop singer, who also sang a Blue-eyed Motownish song "You're My Leading Lady", written by "Dorothy Pierce", and also recorded for Mike Theodore on Palmer Records, and Kris Peterson (Blue-Eyed Detroit Soul singer).  REM Records, Hi-Lite's main subsidiary, in addition to having Tommy Frontera, had Sandy & The Sty-letts, an African-American Girls Group, who had Dorothy Pierce as a writer and producer on all their songs on both REM and Pillar Records, and Gwen Owens(interestingly produced and written by Meehan and his crew, rather than "Dorothy Pierce"), and Pillar Records (which may have been a "Dorothy Pierce" co-owned an operated subsidiary of Hi-Lite Records, as Pierce was involved in every Sty-letts' cut on the label, and I've seen no other releases on that label, and the music publisher used was NOT Hi-Lite's Hildale Music, unlike all the Hi-Lite and REM releases, but Vigay only, whereas Vigay and Hildale shared publishing on the Sandy & Sty-letts REM release.

None of the people who told me that "Dorothy Pierce" was a cover-up name for H-D-H had been Motown insiders; but were old-time Detroiters who knew what was going on, and had connections with the Hi-Lite people, or dealt a lot with Motown.  Several people also told me that Brian's mother-in-law NEVER wrote even one song.  Motown insiders, close to HDH wouldn't have wanted to "Out" H-D-H as Moonlighters, because they wouldn't want to make it possible that they would no longer be asked or allowed to come to official Motown Reunions.

So, I can't say for sure, that I KNOW that Dorothy Pierce's name was used by H-D-H to hide their moonlighting activities.  But, I believe that there's a very good chance that that was the situation.  In my estimation most of the best written songs for that label group were written by "Dorothy Pierce", and the same is true for best production on those cuts.  They probably also used more and better Motown arrangers and musicians on those productions, as well.

 

Edited May 20, 20214 yr by Robbk

I"m not an expert on 60's record industry lingo but, it looks like Del La Rose(??) was an owner of Hi-Lite/REM/ Pillar-

Edited May 19, 20214 yr by The Yank

3 hours ago, The Yank said:

I"m not an expert on 60's record industry lingo but, it looks like Del La Rose(??) was an owner of Hi-Lite/REM/ Pillar-

Yes, De La Rose was, no doubt, the "Money Partner", and CEO, while, Meehan was the A&R Man and chief producer, and may or may not have been a co-owner.  But that seems to only be true for Hi-Lite and its subsidiary, REM (whose "M" probably stands for Meehan). Meehan also seems to have been a principal in the related Oncore Records, which also recorded Gwen Owens, and used Hi-Lites' Hildale Music as its publisher.  But Pillar Records used only Dorothy Pierce's Vigay Music.  So, I'm guessing that if De La Rose or De La Rose/Meehan were co-owners, "Dorothy Pierce" (or H-D-H) owned more of THAT company than their co-owners, otherwise Hildale Music would have shared their publishing rights, and Meehan would probably also gotten his name on the Sty-letts' record as co-producer or executive producer.

Edited May 20, 20214 yr by Robbk

Thinking more about the songs that "Dorothy Pierce" was credited for having written, they sound a lot more like songs Brian Holland wrote solo, or together with Robert Bateman and/or Freddie Gorman, than H-D-H songs.  Listen to "Same As Before" by Orthea Barnes.  Same goes for the songs for The Sty-Letts.  I'm wondering if "Dorothy Pierce" was really just Brian, alone, or Brian and Eddie, without Lamont?  The rumour was, and also what Bateman described years later, that it was only Brian and Eddie that agreed to leave Motown to run Correc-Tone Records in early 1962.  That was before they teamed up with Lamont.  They might, or might not have brought him into their moonlighting venture, which was completely over by late 1963, BEFORE they started getting their big hits.

3 hours ago, Robbk said:

Thinking more about the songs that "Dorothy Pierce" was credited for having written, they sound a lot more like songs Brian Holland wrote solo, or together with Robert Bateman and/or Freddie Gorman, than H-D-H songs.  Listen to "Same As Before" by Orthea Barnes.  Same goes for the songs for The Sty-Letts.  I'm wondering if "Dorothy Pierce" was really just Brian, alone, or Brian and Eddie, without Lamont?  The rumour was, and also what Bateman described years later, that it was only Brian and Eddie that agreed to leave Motown to run Correc-Tone Records in early 1962.  That was before they teamed up with Lamont.  They might, or might not have brought him into their moonlighting venture, which was completely over by late 1963, BEFORE they started getting their big hits.

Thanks for the reply Robb,when i listen to the Seminoles- i cant stand it and then Eddie Holland- i couldnt cry if i wanted to,i hear similaritis in both. With what you are saying i believe that Dorothy Pierce was a cover for H D H. I believe also that Robert Bateman was extremly upset with the Holland brothers when they pulled the plug on going into business with him and stayed with motown. 

14 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Thanks for the reply Robb,when i listen to the Seminoles- i cant stand it and then Eddie Holland- i couldnt cry if i wanted to,i hear similarities in both. With what you are saying i believe that Dorothy Pierce was a cover for H D H. I believe also that Robert Bateman was extremely upset with the Holland Brothers when they pulled the plug on going into business with him and stayed with motown. 

Absolutely!  Bateman said EXACTLY that.  He only agreed to quit Motown to jump to Golden's new label because he thought The Holland Brothers and Popcorn Wylie, and Herman Griffin would all be there to work with him.  He ended up having ALL the responsibilities of building a brand new recording studio, finding and signing artists, assembling regular musicians and just about everything else dumped on him, alone.  As it was, he got The Supremes to moonlight singing backup, Sonny Sanders, Vernon Williams, and Sammy Mack, came over from his recently disbanded Satintones, Popcorn Wylie did come (but also worked for many other labels, Griffin did come, but only worked with Correc-Tone for his own label in partnership projects with Correc-Tone, and former Motown songwriter, Don Juan Mancha came over, and worked as a producer and songwriter, and Janie Bradford to moonlight as a Correc-Tone songwriter, under the name of Nikki Todd.  They Jazz pianist, Willy Harbert as in-house arranger, and had Wilson Pickett, Gino Washington, Theresa Lindsey, Yvonne Vernee (Allen), Vern Williams' Pyramids, Marva Josie, Herman Griffin, and many other quality singing artists, and Bateman was able to use mainly ex-Motown and moonlighting current Motown musicians.  So, qualified personnel wasn't the problem.  That was owner, Wilbur Golden's cash-flow problems that caused the label to not have the money to press their own records, or to market their own records, or to keep their own artists from being lured away to more solvent labels.  Ed Wingate ended up buying Golden out in 1965, 2 years after Batemen took the remaining master tapes of unreleased Correc-Tone recordings to sell or lease to other companies in lieu of unpaid back salary for much of 2 years.  I believe that's how Correc-Tone masters ended up being released on Double-L, Fred Bridges ended up on New York's Versatile Records, etc. 

Edited May 20, 20214 yr by Robbk

14 hours ago, Wheelsville1 said:

Ive just red an article where someone claims that Dorothy Pierce who wrote the Seminols -I cant stand it along with Orthea Barnes on mickeys and several other recordings,was infact a cover name for Holland Dozier Holland who were moonlighting and that Dorothy Pierce was actualy Brian Hollands mother inlaw. Has anybody else heard this? Chris. 

 

Can you supply us with a link to the article?

36 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Can you supply us with a link to the article?

It was only a small paragraph onyoutube when i put in the seminoles i cant stand it. Ive gone back into it and it was Sal Prado who said it. Ive taken a closer look and you were also in the conversation.