My last post got me thinking.

If someone is going to try and recreate a label, pay for the pressing and go to the effort of booting a track to fool people and sell it on and make shit loads of cash, why not just replicate the matrix number as well? I know that it can be done, cos I oversaw all the pressing of our records, down to the etching on the run out.

I'm not advocating this kind of action, just curious why someone hasn't done it before. Or please correct me if I'm wrong.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

M

My last post got me thinking.

If someone is going to try and recreate a label, pay for the pressing and go to the effort of booting a track to fool people and sell it on and make shit loads of cash, why not just replicate the matrix number as well? I know that it can be done, cos I oversaw all the pressing of our records, down to the etching on the run out.

I'm not advocating this kind of action, just curious why someone hasn't done it before. Or please correct me if I'm wrong.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

M

I think this subject has been covered many times before to varying degrees.

With the technology thats available today i believe anything can be forged,just look at the bank notes.John and the Wierdest was booted quite successfully everything was right apart from the opaque plastic.This fooled one or two big DJ,s and collectors initially!I also know one respected dealer sold a George Blackwell as a real one in the early 80,s.........it got sorted in the end!

From a pesonal point of view if i was to boot any tune it would be an obscure one and there would be minimal copies reproduced...........not that im thinking of doing it,but someone must be attempting it or aat least thinking about it

agree would probably only be able to do the odd copy....if a couple of dozen copies of a BIG tune all in good nick suddenly appeared after supposedly 40 years i think we would all be naturally suspicious and wouldnt touch em

My last post got me thinking.

If someone is going to try and recreate a label, pay for the pressing and go to the effort of booting a track to fool people and sell it on and make shit loads of cash, why not just replicate the matrix number as well? I know that it can be done, cos I oversaw all the pressing of our records, down to the etching on the run out.

I'm not advocating this kind of action, just curious why someone hasn't done it before. Or please correct me if I'm wrong.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

M

-------------

This may be a daft question, but how do they etch the matrix numbers on the run out?? Often wondered.

P

Edited October 8, 200816 yr by paup-ine

My last post got me thinking.

If someone is going to try and recreate a label, pay for the pressing and go to the effort of booting a track to fool people and sell it on and make shit loads of cash, why not just replicate the matrix number as well? I know that it can be done, cos I oversaw all the pressing of our records, down to the etching on the run out.

I'm not advocating this kind of action, just curious why someone hasn't done it before. Or please correct me if I'm wrong.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

M

This may be a daft question, but how do they etch the matrix numbers on the run out? Often wondered.

P

I think there are two kinds of boots thesedays, the ones that attempt to fool people into thinking they are the original (not very common) and the one which is an obvious boot but still caters to the boot buying market. There are plenty of boots and carvers produced that don't even pretend to be originals because there are plenty of people out there who don't mind buying boots, either to simply have it on vinyl, or even worse to actualy play out somewhere.

You might say why not just stick it on a white label carver? Well i reckon there are people who either enjoy pretending they have an original, or even try to fool people while playing it out that the one on the decks is legit. Sad but true.

There was a big fuss about those boots a while ago with a different coloured photocopied label on each side, obviously a boot but they still sold. The bootleggers don't even have to worry about exact replicas when they can flog an obvious boot on ebay for £20 to people who know damn well they are buying a boot.

Edited October 8, 200816 yr by Matt Male

This may be a daft question, but how do they etch the matrix numbers on the run out? Often wondered.

P

Machine stamped characters, are different and probably could be replicated today - Columbia carried on using the ZTSP type stampers well into the eighties, hence all the CSP reissues that carried genuine masterings.

Handwritten etchings are done quite easily really. Once the acetate is recorded, the recording engineer will pick up a scriber and carefully write the required notations into the run-out.

This is where the theory of a Perfect Fake goes out the window.

If the matrix required is , for example 1001 - A , then this is what the engineer will write with a scribing tool - IN HIS OWN HANDWRITING. If you sit down with a sheet of paper and write out 1001 - A a thousand times, no two will be the same, it is not possible, so to expect someone to replicate another persons Matrix, or handwriting is beyond reason.

Also, replication of the scroll in and out would be "almost" impossible to replicate.

The only way to replicate a vinyl record perfectly is to look at it from a different ange, and don't go anywhere near a disc cutter or recording lab.

The was a webpage up a few years ago the used the "Mission Impossible Face Mask" principle.

There are flaws in this theory, however the basic principle is as follows.

Cover one side of your "original" with a quick drying liquid - peel of when set (this gives you a negative), then repeat for other side.

Then (and this is where it get a bit vague) sandwich another liquid vinyl (???) between your two negatives, allow to set and remove your negatives leaving a playable Positive with two sides, matrix, etchings all as original.

That's the principle, however the reality is probably still a bit "Mission Impossible"

Cheers

Mick Holdsworth

https://northern-soul-records.com

https://motownsound.co.uk

Machine stamped characters, are different and probably could be replicated today - Columbia carried on using the ZTSP type stampers well into the eighties, hence all the CSP reissues that carried genuine masterings.

Handwritten etchings are done quite easily really. Once the acetate is recorded, the recording engineer will pick up a scriber and carefully write the required notations into the run-out.

This is where the theory of a Perfect Fake goes out the window.

If the matrix required is , for example 1001 - A , then this is what the engineer will write with a scribing tool - IN HIS OWN HANDWRITING. If you sit down with a sheet of paper and write out 1001 - A a thousand times, no two will be the same, it is not possible, so to expect someone to replicate another persons Matrix, or handwriting is beyond reason.

Also, replication of the scroll in and out would be "almost" impossible to replicate.

The only way to replicate a vinyl record perfectly is to look at it from a different ange, and don't go anywhere near a disc cutter or recording lab.

The was a webpage up a few years ago the used the "Mission Impossible Face Mask" principle.

There are flaws in this theory, however the basic principle is as follows.

Cover one side of your "original" with a quick drying liquid - peel of when set (this gives you a negative), then repeat for other side.

Then (and this is where it get a bit vague) sandwich another liquid vinyl (???) between your two negatives, allow to set and remove your negatives leaving a playable Positive with two sides, matrix, etchings all as original.

That's the principle, however the reality is probably still a bit "Mission Impossible"

Cheers

Mick Holdsworth

https://northern-soul-records.com

https://motownsound.co.uk

Just found the original webpage

https://gadgets.qj.net/How-to-Pirate-a-Viny...pg/49/aid/39381

Can't see anyone actually attempting this with anything woth more than a fiver, which kind of defeats the object doesn't it.

Wonder if someone would lend me a Junior McCants for a couple of days ...

I think this subject has been covered many times before to varying degrees.

With the technology thats available today i believe anything can be forged,just look at the bank notes.John and the Wierdest was booted quite successfully everything was right apart from the opaque plastic.This fooled one or two big DJ,s and collectors initially!I also know one respected dealer sold a George Blackwell as a real one in the early 80,s.........it got sorted in the end!

From a pesonal point of view if i was to boot any tune it would be an obscure one and there would be minimal copies reproduced...........not that im thinking of doing it,but someone must be attempting it or aat least thinking about it

I agree the label looks ok but what's on the plastic is poor quality with clicks pops from the records run in and run out, if your gonna boot why not clean the record first.

They just don't phooking care as long as they get a few quid and think they are doing the soul fraternity a favour by letting them have a dodgy press to play at home.

Keep it real and keep it in the clubs.

Edited October 8, 200816 yr by Prophonics 2029