Roburt

A bit more info ... The Precisions "Instant Heartbreak" was issued as Stone SX 727 and that was a US 45 release in Feb 68. As the Precisions "If This Is Love" had done well in Canada (Stone SX 717 - Sept 67), it's a fair guess to say that SX 727 came out in Canada around March 68. So if SX 727 came out in March 68 & SX740 being a Dec 68 release ... then SX 736 would again seemed to have a Canadian release date around Sept 68.

The Canadian (Stone SX 736) copy must date from around mid to late 1968 It seems Stone SX 726 (Jackie Edwards) dates from Dec 67, while Stone SX 728 is assigned a release date of March 68. Then SX 740 is said to be from May 69. So it appears Stone 45 releases were tailing off in 1968, with those numbered above SX 728 (but below # 740) escaping at different times through 1968. Stone SX 741 (Johnny Cowell And His Orchestra And Chorus) has a 1968 date assigned to it, so I guess # 740's dating as May 69 may well be wrong, especially as these tracks also got a US release; the demo being dated to March 69, the issue April 69. The group involved (on this 45) were from Sweden & their 2 tracks were released back there (on separate 45's) in March 68 & Sept 68. So I'd guess the very earliest the Canadian & US releases could have come out was (say) late 68. Johnny Cowell And His Orchestra And Chorus also had a 45 & LP out on the Scope label & they're also assigned a 1968 release date. Which points to their Stone 45 being a 68 release I guess. These Scope releases featured tracks produced by Bob Stone; the owner of the Stone label. Johnny Conwell was mainly known as a song writer (his songs being hits in the US for major artists there). He wanted to become Canada's answer to Herb Alpert in the mid 60's. There was a big article on him in the Canadian music press in July 68. so it's a fair guess to say his LP (& scope 45) was coming out around then. Scope Records was also owned by Bob Stone of RJS (Robert J Sone Records). The same Canadian music publication also states that Conwell was to put out a follow up to his big selling (in Canada) recent album 'Winter Love" (a Cascade label release -- Cascade being a sister label to Scope & also run by Bob Stone). Stone SX 731 was also by a Swede but it didn't seem to gain a 45 release anywhere but Canada, so foreign versions of this are no help in dating it. Same situation with Stone SX 733, another Swedish group, one of the cuts on the Canadian 45 dating back to 1967 in Sweden. Stone obviously did a deal with a Swedish record company & this may well have been reported in the Canadian music press (or in the section of Billboard that dealt with happenings in countries outside the US -- such sections appeared in every edition of Billboard). Anyway, I'm getting off track. Stone SX 735 was by The Metropolitan Toronto Police Association Male Chorus & they also had an LP out on Stone in 68; but I can't put an accurate date to either. SO if Stone 726 was from Dec 67 AND Stone 740 was (say) a late 68 release ... we can GUESS at 736 dating from the period around Sept 68. I'd say it must have escaped in Canada way before late March 69.

F L Moore didn't really know what the soul collectors scene was all about, being an 'outsider' not a soulster himself. BUT getting lots of orders in for a certain non-hit 45 as soon as it appeared on his listing, he soon learnt that there was demand for certain DISCOTHEQUE HITS (see ad above). So the price on his Motown / soul dance cuts soon went up from 25p to £1 each. It was while they were still @ 25p each that I took a risk on 'unknown to me' tracks such as the Soul Brothers Six "You'd Better Check Yourself" which I came across on his shelves -- mind you, with the group name of the SB6, it wasn't much of a risk. In his original premises (the house), you were allowed to just roam the place going thru the stock on his shelves. By the time he moved to the place above the shops, he had a counter & you had to stay the customer side of it. He'd show you lists of his stock or you'd ask for stuff by a certain artist or on a particular label -- as soon as he got a lot of requests for a certain title, it's price would increase.

Gary / Black Knight was based out of Sheffield (if my memory ain't playing tricks on me).

Robb, we're talking about what I was doing as a teenager some 55 years ago, so lots of the detail is lost to me. Those big warehouses didn't advertise in UK music mags, though big importers such as F L Moores & Oldies Unlimited obviously knew of them and bought from them. I used to work for the railways here, so got a good number of free train trips each year. I'd use my freebies to travel down to F L Moores (based in a small town about 50 miles north of London). I probably came across the details of the ONE record warehouse I got lists from while silting thru the stock at F L Moores and coming across a card or listing. Again the exact timing is lost to me now but F L Moore started small (working out of his house), soon tapped into the UK soul collectors market & learnt there was demand he could meet -- his Motown / Atlantic / Stax / Mercury soul 45's suddenly jumped from 5/- each (25p) to 65p / 75p / 99p each when he learnt guys were going to him on a Saturday morning, buying a load of such 45's and selling them for £1+ each that same night at places like the Twisted Wheel. He was soon making decent money & moved to a commercial property above shops in the High Street of his town. The last time I actually went down to his place was a few days after Tammi Terrell died as I bought a TT 45 on that visit (so that would make it March 1970). So I guess my first visit to his house location would have been in 1967/68. However I managed to get the details / address of the NY / NJ record warehouse, I am really guessing at these days .... BUT as soon as I had it, I posted off an enquiry to them and was duly added to their (monthly ?) mailing list. As soon as the lists started arriving, I began ordering from the place. As well as the postage though, we Brits had to pay import duty on such packages, so you had to know exactly what you were buying to make it worthwhile. I guess I missed many 45's that were soon to be big NS spins ... BUT at the time of the list arriving as was unaware that this obscure artist name & song was pure gold and not some crap pop / C&W thing. OUR LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE back then was quite restricted. One opportunity I never took up with the warehouse (that I later regretted) was ... the most obscure 45's or those that they only had a few copies of weren't worth putting on their listings (as they had so many to go at that most buyers would be at least vaguely familiar with). These OBSCURE 45's were packaged together & sold as a 'tea chest' full of soul 45's that worked out at around 2c / 3c a copy. But you had absolutely no idea what you'd be getting. ALSO I had just started my first job & so didn't have the spare cash to buy 1000+ 45's at one go. I soon had family responsibilities, so my postal orders to NY came to an end & the packages of 45's stopped arriving. After I'd not bought for a while (about 3 lists arriving without a new order) the lists stopped coming. A couple of years later, newbies to the scene from my hometown started calling around at our house to check what 'current' hot 45's I had stashed away in my already extensive collection. Then they'd offer me a good sum to tempt me to sell such 45's to them (but they'd offer me say £2 for a 45 I'd paid 20p for -- though it would be selling @ the Casino for around £5+ -- however I didn't know that). After a while guys such as Snowy asked how I'd picked up so many good US soul 45's and I showed him the old warehouse lists I'd kept. His eyes lit up and he took them away with him. No idea if he contacted the place (if it was still in business) and started to buy from them himself. By the way, I also bought from Woolies and from Tandys (Record Shack in the US). But their record sales (45's / LP's) only happened once / twice a year and if you didn't get in early, all the good stuff had gone.

Thanks for the answers. . . . I used to get long lists from a NY area record (cut-out) warehouse from around the late 60's. Oldish (4 months+ 45's) by acts who'd had hits or were on 'important labels' like Motown, Atlantic, Okeh would be on offer at 25c or 50c each. The more obscure label / artist's 45's would be on offer at 10c each. There would be many pages to each list; 1000's of 45's to choose from. I seem to recall that if I went for a big bunch of 10c 45's, the post & packing to the UK would be as much as the records themselves.

ROBB, Just a quick question on this subject. Where were you trawling for discounted soul records back then (in Chicago & Detroit say). Was it just local black 'mom & pop' record stores, lots of thrift stores, strange locations (a furniture store that had bought out a closed record stores stock or the stock of a local record label). OR did the big 'chain' record outlets also have cheap soul 45's in cut-out boxes (coz the distributors salesmen were sourcing them with such 45's to keep them sweet) ?

More about CBS taking over Oriole ... from a US music mag ...

They don't have sleeve notes attributed to a DJ ... BUT it's very hard to ignore the 'Bell's Cellar Of Soul' comp LP's from 1968/69. The 'tribute' album to the series that Charly put out in 89 did however have notes by Rob Hughes. EMI put out lots of other great soul comp LP's in the 60's / 70's but usually the sleeve notes were about the artists / tracks on the albums (though some were penned by DJ's). LP's such as .... A Quartet of Soul; Soul Supply, Soul Sixteen, An Album Full of Soul; Sweet Soul Sounds. They also put out more in the 80's ('What's Happening Stateside' etc.) but don't recall if these had notes by DJ's.

As the subject has been touched on earlier in this thread ... I'll add some more details Sidney Barnes gave me that relates to the New York / Detroit connections at Golden World. Shirley (J) Scott was New York based when recording with Gene Redd (& Sidney Barnes). BUT she wasn't from there. When her 45 didn't take off, she abandoned her plans for a singing career in the Big Apple & returned to her hometown of Jacksonville. Florida and disappeared. Sidney Barnes had fallen head over heals for her ('that young lady' he called her). I'd guess from his reaction, that she was quite a 'looker' back then. No idea if she continued singing when back in Florida, but she left Sidney heartbroken at the time. The NY studio session that Sidney did with Shirley & Gene was the last time Sidney worked with Gene. After that, he relocated to Detroit and worked in partnership with George Clinton & Mike Terry.

My fave group has always been the Impressions (unless its the Dells on a certain day) ... so when I picked up a UK copy of "That New Girl" around 1969 and loved it from day 1. Of course, it's not really them singing their own sound, so I also like lots of their 70's CBS stuff. But "That New Girl" has a special place in my heart.

John is right, it definitely sounds like a tune used in a blaxploitation film. Trouble is from around 1972 for 5 years, there were 100's of them made. This isn't the track you're asking about, but it's a similar instro movie track (from Across 110th St) .. The track you're asking about has a guitar on lead in parts but then brass comes to the fore a bit later, so it's definitely some kind of soul orchestra that is involved -- a kinda MFSB / J.J. Johnson Orchestra type of outfit. I'm an old gibba, so am not up with current app / net technology. But isn't there some software you can put a sample of a track in & it will tell you what the tune is. PLUS, there are numerous movie web pages where knowledgeable folk know this kind of thing.

I asked Sidney for more info in relation to this thread's topic. As always, he was most helpful and came up with loads more interesting facts. SIDNEY BARNES: Gene Redd was a very good friend of mine. I actually started working with him right after Motown (NY). Gene had a little Jazz group that he was grooming that became Kool & The Gang. He became a very busy independent producer in New York during the mid 60's. Gene talked many labels into funding his studio sessions, using Jean Carter and myself as his go to backing singers on a lot of his productions. Many times we would spend all day or even numerous days in the studio working on sessions with him. He was sly, slick and very smooth. All the blacks in the click back then were amazed that Gene could get major labels to give him a budget and an advance on an artist that he was working with. Gene was cool, soft spoken, and as talented and ruthless as they come. But I liked the guy a lot. We hung out together every chance we got coz he was into the music as much as I was. He was always coming up with a new act or starting another big project. I remember Gene booking 30 musicians plus Jean and I. We all recorded two whole days of tracks. Track after track, hour after hour, because he was a perfectionist. However, Gene couldn't make a deal on the artist he'd recorded and nobody got paid. It was a big mess, But we loved the guy, he was a genius of sorts. He recorded Shirley (J) Scott, a young lady that I later feel madly in love with. After that I never worked with Gene again. He got too ruthless and head strong. So I left him alone and stuck with just George (Clinton) and Mike (Terry) while working in Detroit. Gene was a very good producer though and a great guy with a good eye and ear for talent. As you can see from the above, Sidney worked on many NY studio sessions in conjunction with Gene. These included sessions on Shirley's tracks. So Sidney got to know her well & he even fell in love with her. As he said he didn't work with Gene at all when they were both in Detroit, I asked about the sessions with Gene & Shirley and where they took place. Sidney confirmed that Shirley & his efforts were laid down in a NY studio ... but he thinks Gene may have had the instrumental tracks for her cuts done in Detroit. Sidney wasn't too happy that nothing (commercial success) resulted from her recordings, as he wanted her to stay around. However, he tells me she returned home and wasn't heard of again (in the record biz). Guess Sidney was just someone she worked in the studio with & when her 45 did next to nothing, Gene Redd just moved onto his next project (the Platters for Musicor ?).

Peter Kay did a great sketch about misheard lyrics in his shows a few years back (the clips up on youtube). I always thought the lyrics to the disco hit song "Last night a DJ shagged my wife" were a bit off. . . . As a 15 year old, I always used to sing "Sugar for my honey's lunch" but I don't think that's what the 4 Tops were actually saying.

The folk I'd really like any more info / updates on are these few (from above) ... Alan & Mac; Norwich Roger, Cardiff Pete & Chris; Ashford Ipswich; strangely he was from Ipswich Sinbad; Wolverhampton Brian, Walsall Mick & John; Kidderminster Can't have been too many niter goers from those areas back in 1967. CHEERS

On at the moment. It ain't "Make Me Yours" but it's still great music on the TV on a regular basis ...

Born & grew up in Yorkshire. First allniter was in 1966, though I'd been hanging with the Donny & Hull soul crowds ahead of that time (but just doing mainly local clubs as I was still in school -- I did however have a Lambretta, so got to soul clubs in Hull , Goole, Tadcaster, Cleggy, etc.). First niters attended were in Sheffield, then Leicester & by September 67, I was going to the Wheel in Manc. Also did the Tin Chicken (Castleford), a 2nd Manc niter (when we had car trouble xing the Pennines & so arrived outside the Wheel too late to gain entry). In summer, we'd get further afield (on the bikes & in friend's cars); Brid, Yarmouth, Norwich, etc. ALSO Donny was a Saturday evening meeting point for the Hull, Goole, Scunthorpe, Grimsby, Lincoln soul crowds on their way to a niter. So I got to know guys from all over -- those who came to Donny en-route to a niter and those I met at niters. So I had loads of soul obsessed acquaintances back then. By the start of 1967 I had my 1st full time job, so had more cash to splash (so went more often & further afield (record hunting / clothes buying / gig attending trips to London, Leighton Buzzard, Coventry, Leeds, etc). ALSO, having my first job brought other perks. I worked for the Council in Highway Design offices (M1, etc.) and we'd be gifted little things at Amas. Being a newby I didn't get much, but I did get a 1967 pocket diary (1st one I'd ever had). I'd list what I got up to back then and it's the only way (these days) I can account for my movements / actions back then. For some reason, I didn't get given a 1968 diary, so my escapades in 68 / 69 / 70 are now almost a complete blank (apart from a few memorable live acts I got to see). ANYWAY, finally I get to my point ... I listed at the time guts who Id met on my travels and who I'd got to know. But many times, this would just be a Christian name ? nickname & own of origin. HENCE ... Toots, John & Gunner from Peterboro. I went to see folk I'd met at niters in the likes of Hull, Goole, Lincoln, Nottingham, Sheffield, etc. thus I'd visit clubs in Hull (Gondola, Discotheque, Skyline), Wakefield (Locarno), Tadcaster (Boulevard), Brid (Jungle), Goole (Paradise), Cleggy (?). Some names I listed back then I hardly recall any details of the actual people now ... of course only meeting up a couple of times a month or only in certain clubs didn't make for strong friendships but at the time they were important people in my social life. Anyone help fill in the gaps with regard to any of this lot & what became of them ... Mick Graham, Steve P, Pip, Penny, Pete, Pete & Ben;; Scunny ALSO Steve King (probably from Scunny as I wrote he was with Fred (Benson) @ the Mojo. Kenny Sharpe, Click, Eric, Dave & George, the 2 Sues; Nottingham Jean; Goole Pete Hardy; Hull (he emigrated to Canada in 67, seem to recall getting a note from him in 69/70 in with some 45's sent from Koppel's). Veronica & Dee; York Phil Pearson, Stew, Ben & Rimmo; Sheffield Shiela, Ces & Banger; Leicester Alan & Mac; Norwich Roger, Cardiff Pete; London (a Nite Owl attendee) Pete & Chris; Ashford Ipswich; strangely he was from Ipswich Sinbad; Wolverhampton Brian, Walsall Mick & John; Kidderminster Mick Murphy; Northampton (probably met him @ the Nite Owl). Also got matey with a lad from Banbury @ the Nite Owl (Leicester) but his name now escapes me (but there can't have been too many Banbury guys who attended the Owl in summer 67).

Lots of the Beverly Glenn output was top quality material. It's a pity Otis Smith wasn't that fair with the acts he signed.

Robb, good to hear you're keeping well. I know what you mean about having had to 'slow down' as I'm just a few years behind you (75 now). It's obvious that a full book (s) is asking too much of you now BUT you do have amazing knowlwdge in many fields of interest to us here. Brits only really stated to head over to the States to 'crate dig' from around 1970. My brother was in the merchant navy from the mid 60's to the end of that decade & sailed on a rotational basis from the UK to Argentina & the Great Lakes. As such, he would dock in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, etc on a regular basis. I'd ask him to go to local record stores & pick me up any soul records he saw in the 'discount boxes'. Trouble was, he wasn't a soul fan (into folk music), so he had no idea what he was looking for. LP's were easier for him (due to the cover pics), so he did bring me back albums by Spyder Turner, Freddie Scott & the like (but just a handful). To get my fix, I had to do mail order to Randys & Ray Averys postal service. ANYWAY, back to my request. We know little or nothing about 'crate digging' in & around Chicago & Detroit in the 60's ... you know a great deal indeed. It would be great to have you start a thread about your record hunting escapades in US cities back then.

It seems not everything was plain sailing on the good ship Golden World ... I asked Sidney Barnes ... what's the story behind this song / recording ... CAN'T SHAKE IT LOOSE by PAT LEWIS ... am I right in thinking the writers were George (Clinton), J J Barnes (not Sidney ?), J J Jackson & Rose M McCoy .. with you, George & Mike Terry producing .... . . . quite a combination ... Sidney Barnes "Ok here I go setting the record straight on this one. Ed Wingate came into the room early one morning and said to me and George who were looking for something to do, said. I want you guys to write and produce a song on Pat, Pat Lewis who had been doing a ton of background work with us for a while. And he said I want the title to be "I'm Into Something I cant Shake Loose". This was something he would do often. So I sat down at the piano with George and we wrote the song. Then Mike came and wrote the arrangements. That next day we recorded it with Pat at that was that. Now me & George thinking everything was cool cause we had been doing things like this so often, and we were constantly busy. So it wasn't until the Supremes recorded and released it on their "Love Child" album did we noticed that some extra names had been added as writers on our BMI Statements. So here's what happened (since you asked). Joann Jackson was Ed Wingate's girl friend and President of Ed's publishing co. Myto Music. She had brought her friend Rose Marie Mcoy in from New York to write for the company. I met Rose Marie when I was in New York working with J.J. Jackson a few years before, and she was a good writer. But I'll never really know if they were trying to SCREW me around or made some sort of mistake while filling it. I finally straightened it out years later with BMI and collected my back royalties. But by then the damage had been done. It really upset me there for a while, because I was always honest and trusted everybody i worked with in the business. But, J.J. Barnes (bless his soul) had absolutely nothing to do with it, at all. Neither did Joann Jackson, or Rose Marie McCoy. George and I wrote it, and Ed Wingate named it".

Gwen teamed up with Terry Woodford / Wishbone Productions in Muscle Shoals (after Terry & his partner Clayton Ivey quit Fame to go on their own). That's how Gwen's "You Better Watch Out" was recorded. Then Motown signed up Woodford & Ivey as MOTOWN SOUTH. The pair had previously leased out there tracks to the likes of WB, Capitol, Polydor, etc. But Motown wanted them & their acts, so they signed. They worked with the likes of the Commodores, Supremes, GC Cameron, Thelma Houston, Tempts, etc + cut their own acts for Motown -- Reuben Howell, Bottom & Co. AND GWEN OWENS. Gwen told me she wasn't happy with the situation and insisted she be 'released from Motown' after none of her tracks were released after 6 months. So her 45 came out on Casablanca. BUT, Motown retained the rights to some tracks she'd cut & some of them escaped (years later) on a BBC Radioplay compilation LP (this has been discussed on SS in the past). Anyway, Woodford / Ivey soon teamed her with 2 other females in the disco group HOT and they went on to enjoy good sales & chart hits. P.S. ... the BBC Radioplay LP from Rudy Love was also a Woodford / Ivey production job. This album was leased to the BBC by Wishbone Prods themselves and not by Motown ( I believe it wasn't cut by Woodford / Ivey as part of their Motown deal).

Are these two singles by the same group; released only a few months apart ... . . . Discogs has them down as separate entries, so not the same group ...

Now, as I said, my memory is shot these days, but that label doesn't ring any bells. Guess it had to be this version though. THANKS. I have the labels The Country Soul Revue – Testifying CD as well, so the label should ring a bell.

It has recently been put out here again by Charly ... BUT about 20+ years ago I recall going into the Manchester branch of the big UK indie discount record / CD shop of those times (it went bust) and seeing a newly released UK version of this 45 in their cheap box (it was on a soul reissue label). I left it coz I already had an earlier copy of the 45, but I've never seen another copy (& this version doesn't seem to be up on Discogs). Always regretted not buying it. Can anyone tell me what label it was on (my brain is failing due to old age) ?

Robb made mention of all the talented people who were working at / for Golden World ahead of BG buying Ed Wingate out. Just to reinforce that fact, below is a montage of just a few Golden World single releases put out over a short period ... people involved on these included Ed Wingate, Al Kent, George Clinton, Sidney Barnes, Mike Terry, J J Barnes, Don Davies, J Bratton, Gene Redd, R Morris, Joe Hunter, K Peterson, Billy 'the Kid' Jackson (aka Gene Dozier) + Edwin Starr, the Fantastic Four, Laura Lee and many more. While Edwin Starr was ALWAYS a big draw on live UK club dates, by 1967 the music scene in the UK was changing. Lots of soul cover bands were changing; going over to pop, progressive and blues rock material. So lots of clubs / venues that had booked loads of US soul acts were moving on to book new (or just renamed) Brit acts ... a perfect example of this can be seen from the acts that Brian Epstein / the Beatles were booking @ the Saville Theatre in London ... Garnett Mimms with Jimi Hendrix, Pink Floyd, Fairport Convention, the Who (no longer a mod group), Tim Rose, Donovan all mixed in with the likes of Jnr Walker, the 4 Tops and Edwin Starr (with Cream) ...