Modernsoulsucks

Just looked at mine and it's 537 with a different [ballad] b-side. ROD

"there are a lot of people who can not appreciate Northernsoul music properly" I just think everyone appreciates it differently. ROD

I think Simon it's rather difficult to fathom where you are coming from. Whilst you don't appear to have much time for the oldies crowd you are posting on another thread and seemingly extolling the virtues of Helen Shapiro and Tom Jones but then it might be a joke. I can't personally tell. HS and TJ are my idea of "nightmare" records and probably Jocko's too so without being in on it it's hard to take some points you make at face value or seriously. ROD

Im following this just so I can sit my grandchildren on my knee one day and tell them about the time when JT was the voice of reason and fairness between two warring parties. I don't know but Im wondering if there isn't some misunderstanding between Chorley and Cliff[is it?]. At first glance it does come across as if Cliff is supporting the idea of a wide range of styles of music getting played to attract a younger crowd.He mentions jazz,funk,latin. This is where Chorley's reference to warehouse scene comes in. However I did "google" Cliff's playlists the other day [altho can't find 'em now]. Think I noticed Purple Mundi and other stuff I knew alongside stuff I didn't. Whatever, it fitted in with Chorley's "ideal" which was a mix of oldies,underplayed and newies. Cliff wasn't departing at all from the non-oldies strand, albeit a leaning towards 70's upwards. I think. Maybe Cliff could post a playlist. The only observations I'd make is that if Cliff has a vision it's immaterial what the oldies crowd like so there's no need to denigrate them. And I fail to see how the "progressive" end of the scene has any more life in it than the oldies unless the age range of the goers is a lot less than that of the oldies fans. I take the point that it is abroad but at Lifeline etc? I also think JT hit the spot when he mentioned soul rather than scene fans. Contrary to popular belief a lot of the guys like myself who started on a predominantly 60's scene liked other forms of soul music so the introduction of a more contempory sound wasn't the massive leap it's sometimes portrayed. Yes there was some argie-bargie especially when the Mecca maybe went too far into jazz-funk or whatever but by end of Wigan there was a second wave of danceable 70's 45s with a Northern feel which were extremely popular [Pages,ZZ&Co] and whenever I've been to a ATB [mainly oldies] local do those sounds are well represented because that's what a lot of people associate with the end of Wigan,rather than Del-Tours and Topics. I guess the 70's sound being contemporary attracted a lot of younger people back then but I wouldn't have thought it was a factor now. Of course Im assuming there that Cliff's idea of progressive does feature a less 60's orientated style. Probably depends on where he is playing. ROD

I was wondering when someone would bring up the overseas scene to contradict Chorleysoul's observation but it doesn't make his point invalid or less true. I get there's younger people abroad but I don't see how that reflects on the oldies scene here. IMO all it does is draw attention to the fact that it doesn't appear to be attracting young fans in the UK. Not that I'd really expect an influx into the oldies scene but where there are modern nights is this happening? Something like "Soul Essence"? If not you can't put it down to modes of dress or sticking with the same old Wigan format. More to do as Chorley says with choice of music available now and the age difference with the music being of a time and place. I don't think we should be constantly blaming the oldies crowd for any perceived ills as they've been here since M's opened and that didn't stop Stafford or Sam/Arthur doing their thing. In fact judging from amount of nights on it's going strong still although obviously somewhat fragmented in that it has to cater to a more diverse range of tastes. ROD

Some of them, but I guess question was what 45s do you associate with Keb. Bit surprised Hambric [both sides]gets a mention as if it's Drum 45 this was massive for Richard at Casino. CODs and Topics were Richard's 45s but I bought them off him as he was getting out of 60's really and hadn't played them much. Similarly Royal Robins which I think was off him but maybe Anderson. Can't remember now. Jackie Day was from US and I cut acetate for Guy. Limelights was a Dave Raistrick discovery Dave and I played at Stafford. Apart from Hambric we used to play all these at Stafford amongst others but I suppose it all gets mixed up in the memory. ROD

Just looked at mine. I know hard to tell from image but 45Cellar's copy looks matt whilst mine is shiny label. Stamped matrix 45-67023-P1 with triangle couple of inches away. Differences on label:- BABY, I NEED YOU all on one line Hyphen between BMI and 2:34 shorter in length "A Wright-Hanson" all on one line. ROD

All 45s are original. Even those graded VG+ are in very good condition apart from odd scuffs or light marks and all are guaranteed money back if not satisfied. No scratches or f**ked records here. M- is my top grade and EX is not far off that. New titles added. 60's Northern 2.Cicero Blake Don't do this to me SUCCESS M- £8 3.Supremes A Breath Taking Guy MOTOWN EX £10 [real nice copy] 4.Chuck Bernard Every Hurt.../Funny Changes [2 good sides] SATELLITE £15 M- 5. Brothers of Soul You'd better believe it BOO EX £5 6. Gene Chandler There goes the lover BRUNSWICK EX £8 7.Dave Love Coalined Baby SOLID SOUL VG+ £8 8.Jades Ltd. Last Chance WDJ TOWER EX £10 9.Jackie Wilson Whispers BRUNSWICK M- £8 11.Dells There is CADET £5 M- [dh] 12.Doc&Interns Baby I know NOW EX £8 14.Johnny Moffet I found joy CANTEBURY M- £8 15.O'Jays Im so glad I found you BELL M- £10 16.Orlons I ain't coming back CAMEO EX £10 19.Chris Bartley Sweetest thing this ... WDJ VANDO M- £8 20.Royalettes Only when you're lonely MGM EX £8 21.Deon Jackson Love takes a long time.. WDJ CARLA VG+ [few surface marks]£8 31.Archie Bell My balloon's going up ATLANTIC EX £5 32.Ronnie Walker It's a good feeling WDJ ABC EX £15 70's Soul 40.Jean Carn If you wanna go back WDJ PIR [s/s] M- £5 41.B.W. Souls Marvins Groove [FUNK] ROUND EX £8 42.David Morris Jr. Midnight Lady BUDDAH EX £8 43.Caprells I believe in the stars BANO M- £10 44.Rare Pleasure Let me down easy CHERYL M- £25 45.Buddy Turner You're what's missing... OCEAN/ARIOLA M- £8 46.Bobby Cutchins I did it again LASSO M- £5 47.Myra Cormier Pleasant dreams ZZZ M- £12 48.C. Alexander Pay them no mind GUYJIM M- £5 49.Jones Girls Nights over Egypt WDJ [s/s] PIR M- £5 50.Edwin Starr There you go SOUL M- £5 51.Joe Tex All the heaven a man... DIAL EX £5 52.Little Dooley It's got to be now or never NORTH BAY M- £10 53.Five Keys Stop what you're doing LANDMARK EX £10 57.Cory Take it or leave it PHANTOM VG+ [one noticeable scuff] £10 58.Reggie Garner That ain't the way ABC EX £40 59.Rocky Roberts I won't think hard of you CHESS VG+ [couple of clicks on run-in groove] £5 60.Dutch Robinson Can't get along without you DJ [ss] U.A. M- £25 61.Ruffin & Kendrick I couldn't believe it DJ [ss] RCA £12 64.Today's People S.O.S LINDEE EX £5 ss= single sided/same song on both sides Please PM if interested. Payment by Paypal or cheque. Postage for 1 x 45 is £2 by recorded 1st class mail. All 45s sent out in new mailers well-packed. Thanks ROD

Sent you a PM today. ROD

And what's wrong with Hip-hop? Sounds funky to me. ROD

I've had a copy since 80's and I noticed a copy on Ebay maybe a year or two ago. ROD

G-7039 is "Nowhere to run". Diana Gordy sounds like c/u [made up] name based on Ross and Berry obviously. Is this the "I'll come running" track by any chance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7R8M7mFfa8 ROD

I've just had a thought! Thinking about Chorley's premise that punk started with a social/political ethos and then mine that perhaps it didn't live up to it entirely I wonder if we have gone the opposite way in that this scene started as a night-out for teenagers but because of it's longevity has now taken on certain values. I'd say anti-racism for one. Feel free to switch off entirely. ROD

Bearing in mind the poor response from viewers to this meandering thread I've PM'd you re the delights of the MOD[PE]. The fascist reference was just a joke. "God save the Queen,and her fascist regime" of which Im sure the MOD would have been included and no I dont want to argue about it. ROD

Im PMing you before the viewers tun off. Hope you don't mind ROD

For f**k's sake, as it ever occured to you that your inability to take on board any other point of view other than your own may be the reason why people tire of listening and accuse the thread of going up it's own arse. Tedsoul's observation was perfectly valid and in the main I'd agree with that point. For every Joe Strummer there were "how many" who got the wrong end of the stick and were attracted because of the notoriety and the fashion and turned what may have started out as a socially and politically conscious movement into what looked from the outside at best as kids p*ssing about and at worst as a preserve for the deadbeat and an excuse to behave badly. As I've said numerous times it's great that you, and now Billy, got something positive out of the experience and by doing so took a different and no doubt much more successful path than you woulda done had you remained a football hooligan although at only 17 I wouldn't beat myself up about that particular phase. Male rites of passage etc. Personally Im quite happy with "faceless nobody" as long as I have my mates,family etc. I think that's one of the things wrong with today that many people wanna be a somebody and don't mind how they do it and hopefully we'd agree on the 18 reasons for that sad state of affairs. Very brave to come out on here as a one-time Labour activist especially as you bloody didn't do anything to save us from Thatcher [sorry Ted] nor Labour come to that. Hope it's not a cliche but they're all the bloody same. ROD

I agree Ted and I did try to get out of any more discussion but he won't let it lie.

I think you're nitpicking a bit there. In the 60's they were the Pop Charts. Pop is just short-hand for chart music to someone of my generation. What kinda music do you like in '68 would not elicit the response "I like that genre of popular music known as soul" would it? Im sure you knew what I was referring to by the term pop music. I guess the term has also taken on the connotation of something disposable and inconsequential which is how I view punk etc too and was trying to get across. Im glad you got something out of punk. That's great but only as long as it doesn't impinge on me which unfortunately that scene or it's adherents did as I mentioned. Not surprising I have no respect or admiration for it as a movement. I agree with you that without the scene some may give up on the music too. I guess those are the ones who are merely seeking the status Barry mentioned. However that involves having a pretty low opinion of some of our fellow fans. Don't think we should be going there. Unless of course they got into the scene and not the music which seems a bit rum. ROD

Please don't bother as we're not going to agree. Although if you wish to explain and justify punk again that's up to you but maybe start a new thread in Freebasing so we don't continue to hijack Barry's. I have no interest in the music at all. Nor astoundingly do I have any interest in any of the other groups you mention. You obviously don't understand although you keep saying I don't. Im not into pop music. Haven't been since early 1968. The fact that I don't like punk or what came after is extremely relevant in that I have no wish to hear your interpretation of it's "place" then or now. That music has had no effect on me at all or on most people I know of varying ages,interests and backgrounds. It was just something I heard now and again but not by choice. ROD

Just wanted to add to my observation on loutish behaviour with the following quote. "One of the worst things about punk was the gobbing (spitting) at bands. I remember seeing The Clash take to the stage in a hail of spit that looked like a snowstorm! Who started these shenanigans then ? "Apparently the origin of spitting at gigs came from an early Damned gig at which somebody threw a can of beer at Rat Scabies and he just went up to the bloke, pulled him up by the scruff of the neck and spat in his face. From then on everyone decided spitting was a good idea" Severin of the Banshees (The Damned's nemesis) seems to concur " I don't know who started it , but it was probably that arsehole Rat Scabies from the Damned." Ooh you bitch Severin !!! Ramones on stage Rainbow London December 1978 A shower of beer and gob illuminated by the stage lights. Johnny Rotten disagrees though " I think the audiences gobbing on stage came from me. Because of my sinuses, I do gob a lot on stage, but never out toward the crowd...But the press will jump on that, and the next week you get an audience thinking that's its part of the fashion and everybody has to be in on it. There's not much you can do to stop it after that." Very phlegmatic if you'll excuse the pun John. Says Julien Temple (Rock'N' Roll Swindle director) " When Rotten finally came out on stage, it was like Agincourt. There were these massed volleys of gob flying through the air that just hung John like a Medusa." Siouxsie caught conjunctivitis after gob landed in her eye. Strummer got glandular fever after he swallowed it. Bands like The Clash, Pistols etc would be playing with huge big gobs landing on their strings. No wonder punk bands played fast and wanted to fight their audiences !" Youthful exuberance? Drunken, boorish and loutish IMO. No doubt again I don't get it. Think I was taught not to spit in public at a very early age by my parents. ROD

OK TV over. I see we kinda agree on the soul thing so that leaves your perception of punk as a participant and mine as an outsider so of course Im on a hiding to nothing here. In early '77 I was 24 and an Executive Oficer in the MOD. No doubt part of the fascist regime, as the Sex Pisrtols would have it, of the Labour Party under Callaghan. With a support team of four and responsible for the pay and conditions of around 100 Quality Assurance staff scattered around the country engaged in defence procurement. Pretty responsible job and lots of pressure. I believe I was mature enough to carry out those duties and certainly capable of assessing the punk scene and it's relevance to me at the time. I was interested in what was going on around me in society and politics and no doubt had a different understanding to that of a 17 year old. Used to read NME and saw it coming up. The pictures taken on the King's Road where the fashion shops sold the tartan bondage trousers and all the other bits of the uniform that made the punks so very individual from the off. I even got to hear a lot of the music because I was buying it in quantity to send over to a guy in St. Louis in exchange for Northern. Im sorry but to my ears it was more of the same white guitar pop music. No it didn't sound like Blodwyn Pig or the Bay City Rollers but compared to 60's soul it was absolutely bobbins. As for the radical lyric content no I can't come up with a specific "rock" track but I'd guess there are plenty of UK folk songs that deal with the plight of the common man under a harsh system. A lot harsher than that of 1977 I'd think. And yes I read the articles in NME espousing their views. Can't remember any of it really as it wasn't exactly a new way of looking at things as far as I was concerned. Thumbing one's nose at the Queen and authority in general didn't strike me as particularly radical. We'd been leaving the cinema before the National Anthem for quite some time before that. Getting people together to combat racism was a positive achievment I admit but a certain irony in that music papers like the NME could champion that and yet you'd be hard pressed to find any coverage of Black Music in them, which was of course why B&S, Echoes [was it? - the other glossy] and fanzines were doing so well. I didn't go to any of those concerts but then the music was not my thing. And hopefully I lived my life in accordance with those principles anyway. And BTW I didn't need anybody to tell me that racism and fascism were wrong so I think I can comment on it even though you think I don't understand. I'd say maybe you as a self-confessed football hooligan in the 70's at a time when the NF were extremely active on the terraces didn't understand at the time. It now turns out that there were the right kinds of punks who were socially aware and the punk clones which was not perhaps immediately apparent to the outsider. I musta been unlucky and kept bumping into the clones on the streets of Manchester sat in groups drinking and foul-mouthed or running the occasional guantlet on the way to Wigan ot the incident at Northwich allnighter when they smashed the doors and a pitched battle took place. I don't disbelieve you because my sister-in-law is an ex-punk. She was married to some guy in the Notsensibles [from Burnley or Blackburn] and performed poetry on stage with them and is now gay and working in women's rights in London and is a published poet. I guess a positive life-enhancing experience for her. Musically clueless. Last known gig. Take That at Stretford. So Im sorry but I don't buy your above average intelligence punks or the threat it posed to the system by somehow empowering the working class. It was just pop music packaged for maximum financial gain that perhaps had the rather clever idea of wrapping it in a social/political message to gain credibility and appeal. A ploy we've seen used since from Red Wedge to Bono to Free Nelson Mandela. It was never a threat because it was a minority interest confined to the young who were politically powerless anyway and so the State never had to come down hard on it unless you think banning records from Radio 1 is oppression. I may concede that it did have an effect on some people like my sister-in-law but to say it changed the cultural/musical face of the UK doesn't ring true to me either. It was a short-lived musical fad alongside as you say Two-Tone and the Mod groups and you have to look to the other side of the Pond to see where the dominant fashion and music comes from today which is of course Hip-Hop/R&B. ROD

FFS Jocko, this isn't a reply but a dissertation. I type with one finger. I was hopefully trying to answer Paul in the context of how I understood Barry's initial posting. Im not comfortable with the idea that somehow you need to travel to certain venues [Lifeline was mentioned]to be "truly inspired" by the music. Yes, the guys in the Legion having a drink with their mates is not how Paul sees the scene but I don't know how one can jump to the conclusion that they are somehow less committed to the music nor that they are somehow responsible for any failings in the "progressive" scene as you are now suggesting. Barry referred to an "integral" part and as such I see those people as no less entitled to call themselves "soulies" as anyone else being part of a shared experience but which can take many forms. I will try and answer any other points but right now it's tea-time, Clare's home and it's must watch TV after that. Chorleysoul is gunning for me too so I may be under the bed. ROD

I'm not. ROD

I do understand the point you're making but I don't think the scene ever was really all about youthful rebellion. It was purely the music, for me anyway. The allnighters and the "speed" obviously gave it a certain edge compared to a night at the local disco but I doubt we were in essence doing any different socially to others outside the scene. Im sure getting bladdered, having a ruckus and trying to cop-off was someone else's idea of teenage kicks and escaping the reality of a mundane job. Whatever you felt then and reflect upon now it's only your personal interpretation of how it was, and you cannot expect 30 years on to feel the same excitement, at what was then a novel experience, and then turn around and say I've not changed but the scene has. We probably all look back through a golden mist. My own baggage is that I thought of it as a working class phenomena but now I feel Im slightly priced out, if you know what I mean. It's moved upmarket. However that doesn't mean I think the scene is rubbish or blame it for how it's evolved. The original idea is still there and as you say there are places where you can meet like-minded people. You take your enjoyment where you can. Peace? Please don't tell me you were a hippy as well. ROD

Thanks for that Ady. After Chorleysoul's intervention I was beginning to doubt my recollections. I can see the similarities obviously but by '77 the NS scene wasn't really a "youth cult" in the same way as punk. I don't know what date you'd say NS started but say '68/9 so by then it's 9 years old. If you got on it at 16 you're then 25. Married maybe, responsibilities/independent living, working etc. Youthful rebellion was pretty far away in the past for me. I know we then had a big influx of younger people going to Wigan in 75/6 [sorry dates are not set in stone] so Im guessing these would have been the audience that could have gravitated toward punk but went for NS instead. Or in a few cases both. Think I remember Chris Harrop. From Wales? Wasn't he older and shoulda known better. ROD