Robbk

They sounded a lot more like there were three of them, and that the 3rd wasn't an overdub of one of the 2.

I would guess that Dolly of Dolly and The Fashions was NOT Dolores Hall, who it seems to me, had a deeper and fuller singing voice and more range than Dolly. The two voices seem to sound very much like different people.

OF COURSE THAT black Challenge label was printed in L.A. and all over USA. It ran longer than the green one. I can't believe I forgot it ever existed. Other than the auburn 1958-61 label, this black one should have been the one I've seen on the most individual 45s. I guess I'm becoming senile - losing long-term memory. That's pretty scary to me. Up to now it's been mostly losing short-term memory. Worse yet, now, remembering this black label, I'm seeing Ron Holden's name in those block letters on that black label, in my mind's eye. So, even with a gun to my head in Russian Roulette, I now would bet that I've seen at least one black store stocker issue 45 of Holden's '67 record, because I feel it is much more likely that I really did see it, rather than my memory playing tricks on me. Still, I am not 100% sure. So, I'll still say it was likely VERY rare, as I can't remember seeing it at the distributor, or in the major South L.A. record shops. And so, we still can't know whether it really existed, or not, for sure, until we have some concrete proof, such as a scan, or documentation.

This is interesting to me. I don't remember ever seeing those. They must have come from a single pressing plant in an area I've never been. The only part of The US or Canada I never was during the mid-to-late 1960s was The Deep South of USA Mississippi. Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and South Carolina). Maybe the black labels were printed only in a Miami plant? Can someone post a scan of one? I Do remember some black Challenges, -but only early ones, from 1958-60 by The Champs and a few late '50s artists. I would have guessed that the 1967 Ron Holden would have been green if pressed at Monarch.

I can't remember seeing a legitimate late '60s Challenge record with a black label.

I doubt it, too, as his wording is vague. If he really had seen it with his own eyes, he'd have mentioned the circumstances, and who had it. But, we can only guess whether it was ever pressed up until we see one, or read confirmation by official documentation, or testimony from someone from the company who we know was there at the time, and whose memory we can trust. I was around at the time (although not on the inside), and my memory used to be excellent, but now sometimes I conflate memories into confusing one memory for another. So, in some instances actual evidence will turn up later, and others never will, and we can only make "best guesses" based on the "circumstantial evidence" we have. In this case, we must assume that it is more likely than not that no store stock pressing was made, but not certain that a small, test run wasn't made, or that a middling run wasn't made , but never marketed successfully, and destroyed, or unbelievably still stored somewhere (but with water damage, heat damage, or dust damage), or a small, test pressing was made, and the number of them now in people's hands is very, very small, and further that those collectors that DO have one are not in communication with The greater Worldwide Soul Music record collectors' scene.

I don't believe my post was off-topic. I merely posted the reason why I think there were likely few (if any) store stocker copies pressed up (as absolutely NONE of us has ever seen one, and why I didn't see any at Challenge's L.A. distributor at the time the record would have been out). It had more to do with why DJs weren't playing the DJ issue, and why I never heard it on KGFJ or XERB, and why distributors weren't getting orders for it, and radio listeners didn't ever know it existed. One might guess that Challenge Records didn't have the Soul music marketing connections to produce a Soul hit. But Yvonne Carroll's and The Delicates Challenge releases did fine, charting, and getting a lot of store stockers pressed up, and Johnny Wyatt's at least, got a fair amount pressed up. I've been a member of this forum since 2006, and I don't remember ever writing something that could be considered rude, or a put down. That goes for all the other fora I've frequented since 2001. I certainly didn't mean anything personal. I guess I phrased it in a harsh way. I apologise to his friends and family. I certainly wouldn't begrudge Ron from having a good start at his singing career, getting a smash hit with "Love You So"/"My Babe", or being able to have a short career of a few years with it. My point was that, in my opinion, his vocals on his Challenge record's the two sides didn't have enough spirit or transcending quality to lift the good instrumentals to a level high enough to compete with the really high-quality Soul music on the charts in 1967, to make the DJs want to play it, or record shops to carry it, and so, the kids never even got a chance to hear it. And yes, Challenge didn't give this issue enough marketing push to get it heard. I guess I'm getting mean and insensitive in my old age. 😟

I've never seen Holden's Challenge record on a store stocker, only the WDJ issue. And I was living mainly in LA during 1967, and looked in on Challenge's distributor, from time to time. Also, I don't remember Dolphin's handling that record, or Crain's, or Sam's, or Flash having it. Maybe they pressed up a small test run of 500. But IF so, it's got to be dead rare. Ron was a nice guy, but really, he couldn't sing. He had no range, no flair, and by 1967, his voice was even more limited. If you listen to "I'll Forgive And Forget", he's almost just talking. Same on "I Tried". On both, the excellent instrumentation carries him through. I can see (hear) why the record shops didn't order it. I can sing better than he did, and i'm almost 80, and never tried. On his only hit "Love You So"/"My Babe", the elaborate Rock & Roll instrumentals carried him through. His singing parts were very short. Even in 1961, with no voice, he couldn't compete with all the good singers that flooded the market. By '67, it was impossible for him to chart (Motown, Atlantic, Stax, Chess, The Chicago Sound, the Philadelphia Sound was starting, etc.). He would have needed to have a catchy, novelty record to grab some sales.

Thanks, David. Yes, I definitely mixed up Ralph's Sunliners with Detroit's Manhattans - related into them morphing into Rare Earth. But my memory of Ralph being with The Manhattans was from a quote of his, when he wrote something to the effect of, "I played with them for a while". Maybe Ralph played in their backing band on a few gigs, or even in a recording session? It seems obvious now that my memory of him being a regular group member was of the Sunliners, rather than The Manhattans.

Thanks, Yank. I definitely got The Manhattans mixed up with The Sunliners in terms of morphing into Rare Earth. But, I remember Ralph Terrana mentioning that he had, at one time, "played with The Manhattans". So, maybe he was in their accompanying band at a few gigs with them, or even a recording session?

Well, Ralph Terrana was a member of that group for awhile, but I seem to remember that we also had another ex-member of that group posting on SDF for awhile from 2001-2004 or so, back when so many of our posters were people who had been in the music industry in Detroit back in the 60s.

Ralph Terrana said that he was a member of Detroit's Manhattans group for a while, and they were a self-contained band, who played their own instruments. 2 or 3 of their other ex-members posted on Soulful Detroit for awhile. And one or 2 of their members, other than Ralph went on to be members of another famous group. I can't remember whether that group was The Flaming Embers, or Rare Earth.

I thought I was told that Gene Redd Jr.'s daughter was named Stephanye. Certainly Redd ran the production side. Those other two must have been the label's financiers. Cleveland Horne was one of Redd's songwriting team.

I heard and read back in the late '60s, that George Clinton, Gene Redd, and George Kerr all worked with Motown's Jobete Music office in New York in 1963 and the first half of 1964. Kerr and Barnes came to Detroit when their artist, Sammy Turner was signed to an artist contract and was recorded, the same was true for George Clinton and his crew for The Parliaments to be recorded. After Berry Gordy had Jobete N.Y. closed down in summer '64, Clinton and Kerr and Barnes were brought by Motown to Detroit to continue writing songs for Jobete. After several months there, maybe they got disillusioned with their chances to succeed with Gordy, due to nothing they were producing getting pressed up and backed promotionally with any serious effort. So, they approached Ed Wingate, who was interested in using them. Apparently, Kerr and Barnes got financial backing from New Jersey's, Bud Grandoff, who founded Maltese Records, and they both brought New York/N.J. Metro colleague of theirs, Gene Redd Jr., along with them to associate with Wingate. They commuted back and forth between N.Y. and Detroit to record their New York singing artists at Golden World, and write songs and produce recordings for Wingate's Golden World/Ric Tic/Wingate singers, as well. Clinton's production group, Maltese Records, and Gene Redd's Stephanye Records all had office space in Wingate's building from late 1964 into early '66. Maltese and Stephanye Records (registered with N.Y. addresses), were pressed and distributed by Golden World in Detroit. Redd and his writing crew worked on several recording projects for Ed Wingate's Detroit-based artists, other than bringing his NY artists to Detroit to record for Stephanye. He also worked on several records released on small NY labels that were written for NY Jobete office and recorded using Richard Tee's band, who played on most of Jobete's demo recording sessions. Grandoff's Maltese Records also released several songs by their artists Dolls, Perigents, Norma Jenkins, etc. that were written while Kerr and Barnes were with Jobete NY. Interesting that they also released a Rusty Day record produced by Detroit's Ernie Stratton and Fred Saxon, recorded at Terra Shirma.

Yes, Robert Nesberry of The Orchids. The Orchids were one of my favourite early '50s groups. What a beautiful voice their lead singer, Gilbert Warren, had! I forgot about him. That's about the 10th different way of spelling Nesbery I've seen (Nessbery, Nesberry, Nesbary, Nessbarry, Nasbery. What's with people and that name? I have many more songs written by Sherman, sung by Chicago artists. I wonder why he didn't start his own publishing company?

I forgot to comment on your theory of the Vows' "Buttered Popcorn" being the Contours. I listened to their version several times. The lead singer sounds suspiciously like Billy Gordon's gravelly-style voice (e.g. the voice he used on most of his mid to fast tempo cuts (basically ALL but his couple of ballads like "That Day When She Needed Me", when he used his smooth, probably normal voice). Not only that, but I don't hear any of The Vows recognisable voices, and the group, as a whole, sounds very, very much like the 1961 Contours. Furthermore, the sound of the instrumentation, acoustics, and recording all sound like an early '60s ('61 fits best) recording, rather than a 1965 recording. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that this was a previously unissued, vaulted, Contours' 1961 cut, like so many of their others that were left in the can, which only were finally released on digital files. Motown wasn't ever going to put any marketing push on ANY L.A. Motown artist, except Brenda Holloway at that time. That release was probably just a favour to Hal Davis and Marc Gordon, to keep them happy. So, it didn't matter what was on the flip. Your theory could well be spot on. I wouldn't bet a bunch of money on it either way. But, I certainly can't say it has no teeth.

Thanks Yank. That Funky Jazz version of Rodgers & Hammerstein's "My Favorite Things" is great! I think I saw this at United Record Distributors when it was out, but didn't think it would be any good. The flip has terrible acoustics and overall sound quality. Very unprofessional. I assume that Orr Records was co-owned by Richard Orr and Tel-Fi (James Porter). They released a weird mix of music styles, raucus Southern Soul, Chicago-style Soul, Blues, and Jazz. Sherman Nesbery wrote The Deboniers' song for Richard Pegue's Nicolet Music. Micheal Nesbery, who went to my high school, I believe was his cousin. Sherman was a songwriter who wrote for several small indie Chicago labels related to Renee and other Leo Austell and Bob Lee-related labels. Later, he became one of DJ Richard Pegue's stable of songwriters for his Penny and Nickel Records. He was also a singer, both in groups and as a solo act. He recorded for a couple labels (including Toi) as a solo act as Verbel Domino, and with a stage last name starting with "N" (but I can't remember it). And I can't remember the Southside groups he was in other than The Mod Swingers, (Little Sherman and The Mod Swingers) ("The Price of Love" on James Porter's (Tel-Fi owner's) Sagport Records). Do you remember him, and his other stage name, or any of the earlier Southside groups that he was a member? Sherman also wrote "We Don't Have To Be Over 21" for The Jackson Five.

I have The Deboniers' record. I'd really like to hear that Candy (Candace) Love record's cuts. I loved her singing and songwriting on Ric Williams labels.

The shaking joke aside, as far as I remember, Fairshake Music represented the partnership of Jack Daniels(Bright Star/4Brothers) and Larry Dandridge (Dan-Dy Records), which puts Sam & Kitty squarely in Chicago. There was lots of crossover in the music business between Chicago and Cleveland during the 1950s and '60s. Maybe in the exotic dancer field, too? 😂

Absolutely! The odds of them being the same person are nil. Where is a connection? There was probably a "Kitty" within a mile of every nightclub venue in Chicago, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Northern and Southern New Jersey, and Metro L.A. 🤣

I seem to remember that Sam and Kitty lived and worked out of Chicago during the mid '60s.

I don't think our ears are hearing different things. I never cared much about The Rotations' songs. I never even recorded one of them. I bought a few at 5 or 10 ¢, and never played them again. I bought one Rotations on Law-Ton because I got it for almost nothing. I don't have any others of their '70s records. So, I never compared them to the Frantic record and Mala songs. I have few '70s records, and recorded less. I don't like many songs from The '70s (the few I like are mostly Motown from 1970-early '72, with an older sound). So, I never played Rotations' songs from different labels back-to-back comparing them. I just always assumed that they were all the same East Coast group. My buying and collecting records was already taking too much time away from my personal life and other pursuits. I couldn't get anywhere as deep into finding out about non-Detroit and Chicago record labels, or I would have had to try to create a career in researching Soul music (which I clearly didn't want to do - or I'd have tried it). I lost quite a bit of money owning a record company as it was, and didn't get much satisfaction from it because nobody wanted to make or buy the old-fashioned music I liked; and I found out that I couldn't write music, and also wasn't willing to put in the practise time to learn to play the piano or guitar well enough to write better. Anyway, there are Anoraks on this website that know a lot more about the late '60s and '70s East Coast Soul music, and looking up information online and websites and other sources online, and have a lot more friends into NS to ask, who can answer this question better. I use mainly just my own collection, plus a few websites I know, plus some old paper discographies I put together over the years. I DID find the later Jamie-Guyden Inspirations' release. It was Jamie 1212 (rather than Guyden). It has, I think, a re-recording or alternate take of "Dry Your Eyes". I think it's an updated version with Strings added, if I recall. And that's why I bought it. I think "Goodbye" on the flip is a more modern '60s recording.

Yes, that's the Inspirations record I said I bought in 1958. Maybe Jamie-Guyden Records re-issued it on Guyden in 1962 or 1963. But, I also have a couple New Jersey or Philadelphia small indie labels with cuts by The Inspirations from the early '60s, plus one on a tiny New York label. I always thought they were the same Philly group or Philadelphia suburbs of South NJ. I'm not with my 45s now so can't check. Anyway, that doesn't preclude some members of The Inspirations starting up a new group called The Rotations. I just mentioned that I had never seen or heard evidence of that. There are big holes in my knowledge of US East Coast Soul productions. I never talked with any East Coast production people, artists, musicians or even big-time East Coast Soul & R&B record collectors like I did with Chicago and Detroit and L.A. people. I always thought The Rotations who recorded for some Cleveland labels Cleveland (Law-Ton, etc. ) were the same group from New Jersey that recorded for Frantic, and New York's Mala. As Cleveland didn't have as large a recording industry as Philadelphia and New York, and credits and labels showed they also recorded in Philadelphia (Law-Ton and Frantic) I assumed they were the same group. Bill Justis and Miles Grayson certainly were West Coasters. I wonder if The Mala group really was a West Coast group containing some of The Attractions' members? I never really paid much attention to The Rotations as I never cared that much about any of their recordings. But IF they were a west coast group that signed to New York's Amy-Mala-Bell Records, why wouldn't some of their people know about the Philadelphia/Cleveland group and suggest re-naming the group? It seems to me the Cleveland labels are the newest. And, I'm guessing Mala is right before Frantic. But I don't remember. Can someone here tell me the chronological releases of the Rotations' groups' records?

I can't remember on which early '60s Philadelphia labels The Philadelphia/NJ inspirations had releases, other than Grand Records, which ran all the way from 1953 to the early mid '60s. But, I seem to remember that they were on one or two others (and also, I think they had an early '60s release on Guyden). One of those I can't remember may have been on a New York label. I'm not so knowledgeable on East Coast labels as Midwest or California. And my memory of what I DID know is naturally weaker for areas where I never resided. I'm not saying that The NJ/Phil Inspirations couldn't have morphed into The Rotations in the mid or later mid '60s. I just mentioned that I'd never heard anything about them being connected in any way. That means only literally what was stated. My knowledge of East Coast groups' line-ups through the years is not all that good.

Yes. As I recall, Ralph Chestnut sang lead on Tell me. If it had been Morris, I'd have liked it better. Although, I just don't like the music writing or arrangement on that song. And weren't The Inspirations on all those Philadelphia labels the same group that sang the regional hit song, "Dry your Eyes" on Guyden Records? And, I never heard of them also being The Rotations on Mala. And, of course they had nothing to do with the Wisconsin Inspirations who recorded for several Chicago labels.