Robbk

I bought some nice records at Robinson's, myself. In 1955, if someone had told me I'd need to go to England in the 1980s to find '60s Black American music, I'd have told him he was insane.

No offence intended. I see that you had thought I was a Brit in America searching for Soul records "too early".

Why is this crazy? I think it's more "crazy" that '60s and '70s American Soul music became a "scene" (phenomenon) in which the prices of individual 45 RPM records accelerated to outlandish heights (making it almost impossible for us North American soul fans to obtain reasonably rare Soul music 45s when tonnes of them were being carried off to The UK. I am a Canadian/American (also Dutch), who grew up partly in Winnipeg, Manitoba, partly in Chicago and lived in Los Angeles for late high school and University. In Chicago, my uncle and father had two grocery stores on The South Side. I lived in South Chicago. I had always liked Black music. My father liked Jazz and City Blues. He had a lot of 78s. I already liked US Black music as a young child, as the radio music in Western Canada was hicky (seemingly uninspired) Country and Western music. We used to visit family in Chicago in summers and winter and spring vacations. My family always had stores in The Ghetto (South Side). I used to hang out there. I listened to Blues, R&B, Gospel (despite being Jewish) and Jazz. I started buying records at 7 years old. My parents took me to the thrift shops, where I bought '50s R&B and Blues records for 10¢ apiece. (naturally, I was getting more of the good stuff in Chicago than in Winnipeg). I also went to record shops and bought from their bargain bins. We moved, permanently, to Chicago in 1959. I started scarfing up loads of records then. I worked in my fathers store and most of my friends were Southsiders. When I started driving a car in 1963, I started driving to Detroit to look through record shops and thrift and junk stores one Saturday each month. I also had regular routes in Chicagoland, and traveled to Milwaukee, Indianapolis, St. Louis and Des Moines. In the late '60s, I took several trips across USA and Canada buying records. Yes, I KNEW what I was buying -WHEN I could play the records at the record shops. At the thrift shops, I looked for R&B indie labels, producers, arrangers, songwriters and music publishing companies who had work I had liked in previous experience. I have a photographic memory for large amounts of data, and so, could remember thousands of names and sounds of songs (a talent that seems to be VERY prevalent in The Northern scene among the big collectors and dealers (not so?). Naturally, I didn't know that "Naughty Boy" or other records that I bought in the 1960s would eventually become bid up in price to ridiculous heights by dance club disc jockeys and dancers in the 1970s and 1980s (I'm not Nostradamus). I bought Boogie Woogie/R&B/jump Blues/DooWop/Blues/Jazz/Gospel music in the 1950s and '60s because I liked it, and added Soul in the 1960s because I liked that. I didn't buy any records with music I didn't like on speculation. I bought precious few duplicates, mainly to upgrade condition, or a couple copies that came very cheaply, to trade for records I can't find on my own. I love Motown and Chicago Soul best 1959-1964 best (also 1965-67). I like R&B from the '40s-'50s. I like group records from '53-'54 best from that genre. I don't like funk. I stopped listening to the radio in 1966. I ALWAYS listened to the Black (Race music) radio stations. I have almost no idea of Caucasian "pop" music. I can count the number of Beatles and Rolling Stones songtitles I know on two hands and one hand, respectively. I couldn't tell you two songtitles of songs by Paul Anka or any of the pop stars. If someone were to point a gun to my head and kill me if I couldn't come up with a title, I'd have to recall a day of flipping through 45s in my head, bring up the image of the record, and, subsequently "read" what was on the label (which IS stored in my memory), but, to which, I had never before paid attention. For most of the records in my collection, I can think back and "see" myself picking up the record (e.g. remember where and roughly when I bought it). Again, I have noticed this "peculiar" talent in many record collectors. It's probably a requisite for searching through millions of records and generally not having enough time to look through all that one would like to see. In 1972, I started living part-time in Holland (full time from 1987-1995-and part time again from then even until now). I used to come to England on short trips. In the late 1970s and '80s, I used to visit friends in Lancashire. I used to visit John Anderson (King's Lynn) and buy some records, and John Manship, as well. Rod Shard and Dave Withers and Tim Ashibende got records off me. I also know John Marriott. I traded NS valuable records for rare Detroit Soul 45s that I had never seen nor had an opportunity to buy at a price I could afford. I did most of my record searching between 1953, and 1972 (when I started working for The UN in Africa, The Middle East and the Far East for much of the year, and headquartering myself for a few months also in Holland). I did still live in LA some, but only looked for records when Rod Shard or Dave Withers came to visit me. The thrift and junk stores and record shops' stock had "dried up" (Northern Soul buyers from UK had the ins to see the record shop and distributor stock first, and the cash to buy a lot more). So, it was pretty tough for North Americans to compete for it. In the Early 1970s Motown moved out to L.A. As a big Motown collector and fan (in the early '60s) I had visited their offices in Detroit, asking the secretaries if they had any DJ copies I could have. After they came to L.A. I starting getting friendly with some of their staff. They liked my taste in music. I ended up doing consulting work on some of their projects for release of previously unissued cuts. The "From The Vaults" project was originally planned for 5 LPs as a test, with the option for 5 more. It ended up as only one single album on Natural Resources budget label. We worked on that for several years, listening to a great number of cuts from the vaults (tapes and acetates). MANY of those acetates we had in our possession have been sold (and a lot ended up in UK). I "discovered" many of the unissued cuts that were booted in UK and played on the Northern scene (way too many to list) ("Suspicion", etc.) We had "Do I Love You(Indeed I Do)" by Frank Wilson, The Andantes, etc. and virtually all the Motown releases in Tom DePierro's office. I think that Simon Soussan got the Frank Wilson (and a few others). I won't discuss how he got them, because I don't know. (I was not party to any of the thievery from Motown). A fair amount of the research we did was also used to put together the other stray LPs with previously unissued material, and also the unreleased cuts that ended up on The 25th Anniversary of Motown albums. Most of the unreleased material we screened has now been issued on CDs by the various companies. But, there are still a few nice ones that are yet to come (Linda Griner, Edward Earling, Shorty Long, The Five Quails, and much great Gospel music by The Sons of Zion and The Pronouns). Something for which to look forward. In 1980 I moved with Tom DePierro and a few others that had worked at Motown, to Airwave/Altair Records (as a part owner). I was with them until 1984. But, I was in Holland and The Third World much of that time. Currently, I do consulting work with Ady Croasdell and, I hope, others at Ace/Kent Records, on "oldies" CD projects like "Dave Hamilton's Dancers" and "J & S Records(Zell Sanders)", providing label scans and records to record if needed, and information about record companies and personnel (if needed). I write and draw Disney Comic book stories and magazine covers for Dutch, Danish and German Disney Publications (since 1984), so I have little time to deal with music these days. So, Steve L. We WERE even. I didn't know who YOU are, and what YOUR background is.

I wouldn't call my purchasing it "dug out". I was a "Ghetto Child" buying the music I liked, near the time it was out. I bought so many records that I couldn't afford to buy them all at the retail 89¢ to $1.00. So, I waited for the non-hits to hit the 2 for $1.00, 3 for $1.00, 4 for $1.00, 5 for $1.00, 10 for $1.00 or 3 for $25¢ bins, and thrift stores and junk stores and furniture and book stores. I was a university student, not working, and with little cash. There were many thousands of records I had to leave (looking from 1953-1972) because I couldn't afford to pay the extra 10¢ to $1.00 each! Maybe I should have become a dealer and earn my living off of it. But, I went a different route. I'd rather be a cartoonist, in any case. Most record shops had a little 45 player we could use to play them. Ah, the Good Ol' Days! While I was in L.A. attending university (UCLA), I used to drive all over South Central on Saturdays, looking for records. Invariably, I'd cross paths with Steve Propes when visiting thrift stores. He usually got the better finds because he delivered pies in a truck and gave pies to the workers in the thrift stores to keep the new records in the back of the store for him to get first look.

I listened to it again, and it sounds tinny. The mixing quality is poor. But, as stated above, the sax solo is fantastic. Anyone know who played it? Anyone know who Cyril D. Roberts was? I can't remember if I've seen his name on any other L.A. '60s Soul records. He produced and arranged it. I think he may have been a low-level local band leader.

Ha! Ha! I, myself, was pretty old when I was a co-owner of Airwave Records. And, I guess an old guy who owned a record company (albeit only out of his house and not a big cash cow) could have a young girlfriend, too. Actually, in the article, the author has a question mark placed after the "Sr.". So he wasn't sure. I'm just guessing that Jr., at age 29, was Jackie's Boyfriend, rather than his father at age 55. Again, I ruin my own theory, as my current girlfriend is only 22. Still, I'm betting that the owner was the successful Lawyer, Johnny, Jr.

Pat's closed down near the end of the '60s or 1970 or so. So I doubt that. But, the record must have been distributed to several record shops in South-Central and South Los Angeles (Black Ghetto). Dolphin's of Hollywood, Sam's and Flash probably carried it along with Pat's. I looked through the stock of Herman Griffith's Record Shop (DJ with KGFJ and producer on Joker Records), but didn't see it. Maybe they were rather from the Oakland Music City find? Most of those stores closed many, many years ago.

The linked article said that Johnny Cochrane, SENIOR owned the label. But that can't be right, as he'd have been too old to like that kind of "new music", as Junior was born in 1937 (and would have been 29 in 1966). So, it must have been THE Johnny Cochrane, Jr. who owned it. It was interesting to find out also that Jackie Day's first husband was Blues/R&B band leader, Big Jay McNeely.

Nice to see you're on here, Rod. Bit of an exaggeration, though, eh? I was up to even $1.00 for the right record by 1967!

I just wrote 1984 because that was the first year Ady listed. It was some time in the early '80s. It could have been 1983, or even 1982 that Rod got it from me.

It was "discovered" by me in 1967, along with the Terri Goodnight 45 also on Phelectron records, at Pat's Records in South-Central Los Angeles (Corner of Vernon Ave. & San Pedro Place) in a 50 cent sale. The pair cost me one Dollar. I traded both to Rod Shard for a bunch of rare Detroit Records (he gathered over a few years) -we consumated the trade in the early-mid 1980s. 1984 sounds about right. He started playing it immediately. I traded him a fair amount of '60s NS records starting the late '70s through the 1980s. Several of the records he "broke" came from me. I had looked through millions of 45s, and don't remember ever seeing another Phelectron record, either before or after. Does anyone know who owned Phelectron Records?

Mal, we had a discussion about that just after you won the DSSI demo. Unfortunately, Ron Murphy was already gone, and so we couldn't ask him. Upon listening to it, we realised it wasn't Jimmy Delphs. We concluded that it must have been the demo "reference" cut for Delphs to use as a model. Here's the link to our thread: https://soulfuldetroi....php/t-560.html Davie Gordon postulated that it might be one of Duane Freeman or George Mallory (the writers).

Flynny (or anyone else here)....Did Don Davis ever answer the question as to why he leased the master of "Lucky To Be Loved By You" to Jesse Herring's tiny Wild Deuce Records instead of releasing it on Thelma? Was the leasing after Thelma 113, and the writing was on the wall that the company would close shop? I think it was Lasky's best, and might have been a hit if released on a major (that would PUSH it). Did he try to get a major to lease it? From it's sound, I'd guess it was recorded rather earlier than 108-so not really near their end of the line. Actually, it's my favourite Thelma cut. I would have been happier to see it come out on the unused Thelma 103. But, I know that that had been originally scheduled for a female solo artist (forget name).

I have one on Radio City white DJ. It also came as gold on black store stock. There was a Radio City issue of the record with the group name changed to The Royal Knights, but the recordings are exactly the same. Radio City was a re-issue a year or two later, when The owner (someone named Johnson) moved to San Diego. The Radio City releases, in addition to having their own pressing plant pressing code number, also list the Tac-Ful record catalog number (TF1002). The Radio City re-releases are much rarer, but as re-releases have less value. So, the combination of being less original, but being rarer, may make their prices not so far apart. The New Yorkers were produced in L.A. by L.A. producer, Ben Gresham. His brother Jimmy was the arranger. The group was called The New Yorkers because they were managed by 3 professional US Football players who had played much of their careers with The New York Giants, but now, (1964-65) were playing for The Los Angeles Rams. I believe that at least one, if not two of the group members were the football players (possibly all 3). There were also some Tac-Ful pressings from another pressing plant that were a greenish-blue. I have one of those as well. We had a thread on this very topic on RareSoul Forum in 2007, with scans of all these records.

That's surprising to me that Dave Hamilton was involved in a Mickay's production. I never saw his name on any of those records (Mickay's or Orthea (Ortheia) on Coral. I assume that he must then have been the arranger. The listed arrangers on Mickay's were Joe Hunter, Fred Brown, Mike Hanks, Phil Wright (Chicago) and McKinley Jackson. Do you know what Dave Hamilton had to do with that Orthea Barnes Mickay's production?

Do you know who is singing "Never Ever Leave Me" for Mickay's Records? I don't know of any Mickay's release with that title. Does it sound like J.J. Barnes, Orthea Barnes, Mel Anton, or The Legends? What does it sound like?

"In The Neighborhood" -Jimmy Ruffin "On The Avenue"-Jimmy Ruffin There were a LOT more Motown and Detroit tracks used on 2 or more recordings. As far as the Connections between Chicago's Maurci Records and Detroit's Topper Records I can only guess. The tracks for "Challenge My Love were DEFINITELY laid down by Dave Hamilton and his people in Detroit. I believe that Maurci Records was Gene Chandler's and SimTec Simmon's label. They had Sonny Sanders as one of their arrangers and McKinley Jackson as producer, songwriter, arranger and A&R man, and Andre Williams was involved a bit. All three had ties in Chicago and Detroit. But, I don't remember Andre Williams or Sonny Sanders working with Dave Hamilton. Nor do I remember McKinley Jackson working with him. But, Andre Williams, and certainly , Sonny Sanders were working mostly in Chicago in 1965-1966. I'd guess that possibly Jackson, who worked a lot more in Detroit than in Chicago, was in the studio when they were recording it, and liked it, and asked Hamilton if he could "buy" it from him if Hamilton's Tobi Lark record failed to do much in sales. OR, someone in Detroit got their hands on a copy of the backing track master tapes and sold them/it to Jackson (he not knowing that it had been used on a released record. We certainly didn't hear "Challenge My Love" on WVON. I don't know if it got radio play outside Detroit. We didn't hear it in Chicago, as I remember. Most of the other same backing tracks used had fairly clear trails of connections between staff or ownership from one label to the other, or from people who had worked together at one time or another. This one is tough to figure.

Naturally, I, or Chalky, or Bob A., or whoever finds out anything about the supposed 2nd Shee release on Little Nicky will post that info here on this or a new thread. I'm glad to see that "Just One Night" was the "A" side of The Four Arts' record. I like it better than "Who Do You Think You Are" (which I think sounds messy).

We had both sides of Little Nicky and both sides of The Four Arts label scans posted on a forum thread (but I forget which one). The 4 ZTSP numbers were consecutive. "I Wanted To Tell You" was ZTSP 94863, so its flip was ZTSP 94864. I believe that the numbers for Shee 100 (Four Arts) were ZTSP 94861 for "Who Do You Think You Are", and ZTSP 94862 for the flip.

We had scans of both sides of both Shee 101 and Shee 100 on a thread on some forum. But I can't find it now. The matrix numbers of all four cuts of those two records were consecutive. "I Wanted To Tell You" was ZTSP 94863. Its flip was 94864. I believe that the numbers for Shee 100 (The Four Arts) were ZTSP 94861 and 94862. They were probably pressed up at the same time. I think that Bob A. posted the scan of The Four Arts. That would place the releases around late May-early June of 1964.

WOW!!! I would really love to hear THAT ONE!!! I've heard that she was just hired as a demo singer. But, I wonder if Raynoma was pressing to also get her a singing contract and a record release with Motown, as she tried with The Parliaments, and succeeded with The Serenaders and Sammy Turner? Does anyone know if Carol Moore had any releases on local NY Area labels? (or ANY labels, for that matter?)

The 2nd 45 is purported to also be on Shee Records. So, perhaps 4 songs were recorded in his session? Did Sidney say that they only recorded the 2 on his Shee 101 release?

I think that "I Wanted To Tell You" sounds like Motown's late 1961-1962 to some degree. Please ask him if he and Lucille White wrote that originally with the idea of selling it to Jobete Music, and later, he decided to give it to his friend, Nicky, to help ensure that he'd have a chance for a hit. I've noticed that all of the writers at Jobete Music NY changed their writing style to fit Motown's style when writing songs for Jobete Music. Ask him if Raynoma and Eddie had the NY writers get any instruction from Detroit Motown staff on what they wanted.

Thanks Chalky. It's nice to get information from the actual participants. I guess we can assume that Barnes left before Nicky got recorded (or, if not, then The Four Arts were NOT the group that backed up Nicky). We know now, that Sidney Barnes was not the A&R man for Shee Records, nor was he a co-owner.

How much would the Age version go for? By the way, the Age title is "Cut You A-Loose".